Argh . . . I can't take a music class?

[SeanHannifin]

*sigh* My life will make one heck of a biography . . . :D

I just got an email back from my university's music department. I asked if I could take a music class, even though I was not a music major and could not play an instrument. After all, I love music and I love composing, and I would love to learn more while I'm in college.

To quote the response: "Most of the music classes are for music majors, and are really only suitable for people who play or sing."

:eek: What!?! That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! What about people who compose?!

The woman did go on to say I am eligible to take those stupid music appreciation and history courses. No thank you.

I do plan to email them back, and maybe if I'm lucky I can change somebody's mind, but . . . ugh . . . that's very annoying.

I am very grateful to those on this forum who are willing to teach and help for free. Right now, it seems to be all I've got.

[tgfoo]

Sean, i do agree that this is crap. Though a big thing in music departments (at least in mine) is that you do have musical ability and that you can play an instrument. Just get together some of you compositions and send them to them and tell them that you are a composer who wants to take some music classes. Stick with it. Don't let them decide who can and cannot take real music classes in college.

[jc5]

Yes, sending in samples of your compositions might help. Most university music programs require auditions to get in - that is part of why the courses are not open to the other students. For composition however, a portfolio is required. That you can do.

Another thing, if you cannot take the course officially, look into some private lessons with one of the composition professors. After all, if you aren't getting the full degree anyhow it won't make much difference if you are enrolled in the course, or studying privately. Private lessons can be quite rewarding in fact if you find the right teacher.

[FredProgGH]

What courses were you interested in? Did any of them actually involve playing?? I'm with the others- stay at them :D

[SeanHannifin]

I already emailed them a link to my music website, though I'm not sure they took any time to look and listen. I would be interested in taking more advanced music theory classes and composition classes. Perhaps I should email the specific professors instead of the general music department and try to get some special permission. As far as I know, music theory and composition do not involve playing. According to my friend who is in music theory II, it doesn't even involve sight singing.

I know being able to play an instrument is a tremendous benefit, and I am not denying its importance, but I don't think music classes should be closed to students like me who are newer to music and have not yet gained proficiency on an instrument . . . and unfortunately the kazoo probably doesn't count.

Thanks for the support! :)

[FredProgGH]

There's a good probability you're just up against a knee-jerk reaction- there probably are a lot of doofuses who try to take those courses that really would be wasting their time. If you have a chance to talk to someone in person they should see you're legit. :D

[metrobot]

I'd also suggest stop emailing and stop sending them links. Talk face to face and have (gulp) printed out scores and a cd. It's easier to reject an email. Much harder to turn down an eager body with a portfolio in hand.

[Hawkes]

Yeah, I'd recommend just going in and talking to the professor. I've taken a few classes without being a music major. I talked to the professors, and they didn't have any problem with me being in their classes as long as there was enough space left in the class... in fact one (a filmscoring class) was quite happy to have me join because he was facing the possibility of not having enough students, and having the class cancelled. And, once, one of the professors told me to go ahead and just audit the class (since I wasn't concerned with credits)... it was a free class, and I got to participate just like all the other students - she graded all of my assignments and tests.

[brasspig]

That is totally rediculous Sean. In fact, in my Theory II class I am currently teaching, one of my best students is a guy who does not play anything nor does he sing. I do wonder what draws him to music theory, but his grade is currently in the mid to upper 90s, which is well above the class average.

I know GMU has some quality professors, but I see no reason for them to be so selective in those courses.

Can you just enroll in the class and show up?? Can you find a class at any other colleges/universities near by??

Take care and good luck!

Brasspig

[Styxx]

Sounds like its time for them to reevaluate course policies, and prerequisites. However, you are studying piano now aren't you? So, you’re not entirely without instrument knowledge or are they that narrow-minded? Couldn’t you at least prepare a suitable piece for them to hear?
I would go to my course counselor and state my intentions face to face. Give him or her solid reasons why you desire taking the course and be persistent! I had to do the same when I decided to combine my degree for a music / theartre degree. Took some persistent meetings and talking with as many of the professors in the Arts department to get them to conceded and it paid off!
My best wishes for you Sean!

Edit -

[jesshmusic]

I must say, being devil's advocate, learn to play an instrument. And work hard doing it. It will make you a better composer. You don't have to be a master musician to be a composer, but the ability to play an instrument really is essential. I remember you got a keyboard. Is it full size? Are the keys weighted like a piano? It will have to do. Practice....practice....practice....practice.... Make it an obsession. If you want to be a composer, it's not a part time thing. And I will tell you composing is a thousand times less trying if you can play an instrument. I know you have talent, but you can be better. I am not one to sugar coat. I can tell you that collegiate professors take composition very, very seriously. They also all play an instrument, most very well. My teacher has his doctorate in flute performance.
Don't let this dishearten you, because that is not my intent. Music is not easy, if it was we would not do it. I had to switch instruments after a year in my undergraduate program to piano because i couldn't hack it on Trombone. I persevered and managed to eek out on piano. With lots of practice.
I will also say that you need to find something in your budget for private lessons. I am sure you can find a fairly inexpensive teacher. My composition teacher always told me to find a way. Get up off my butt and do it.
In lieu of lessons keep practicing, at least 2 hours per day, study scores (including chamber and solo music), and keep composing.
I will also say that every music department in the country probably has this policy. I know to most here it seems unfair, but it is actually very logical reasoning.
Don't let it get you down. Next year go back and say you play the piano. Your skills may be rudimentary, but maybe enough for a music minor. If you want it bad enough, then go get it. That and work on my composition assignments in my Seminar in the Academy this weekend. :D:D

[Trolls]

Also being devil's advocate, There are some schools that don't have the resources to allow everyone to take a class that is specifically designed for music majors. I teach at a university with the opposite problem. We are forced to allow students who will never be music majors into our theory and musicianship I classes, and if they pass, we are not allowed to keep them from going on to Theory and Musicianship II. We had 54 students in Theory I last semester, and I have 38 in Theory II this semester. This is far more than should be allowed in a class, and our department cannot afford to run more than one section. In addition, we have had to turn away students who are declared music majors because University policy does not allow us to remove students simply because a music major has not been declared. This hurts the program, and the majors who couldn't get in because now they'll be a year behind since Theory I and II are required in order to go on to Counterpoint and Orchestration, two other important course for a composer and performing musician.

So I must say that I agree with the school's policy of turning away non-majors. On the other hand, go talk to the professor. In the past I have made exceptions for students who are not majors but show an ability and ambition. I'm sure if you show both, they'll consider you. But don't be so critical of a school just for defending their program and their majors. I can attest that when a weak student is allowed to enter a class they really don't belong in, then the entire class suffers for it.

Sorry if this sounds cold and heartless, but a music program that offers a degree is not there simply to service the non-major (despite what our current administration thinks).

Tim

PS - See if they offer any classes of interest for Non-majors. We offer a theory for non-majors class here and it actually goes pretty far. In fact, we've had students who have taken that and then passed into Theory II. So it can be a good option. Most schools have something like this. But try talking to the professor of the majors class first. What I have heard of you stuff, I think he might make an exception for you.

[Styxx]

Jess is absolutely right. I had to learn piano to get into the music education courses. What I did was borrow a weighted keyboard, a Korg, and practiced all the major and minor scales and what ever else I needed to at least pass the piano proficiency entrance exam. It was mind-numbing and exhausting but I made it in! Like Jess stated, "Practice, practice, practice!"
Good luck and oh, sorry about the temper tantrum in my last reply!:D

[Christopher Duncan]

Well, in the meantime, here's a great online course:

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=54

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Skysaw]

When I took composition at Oberlin, it was required to play piano. You either were forced to take lessons, or you had to test out by playing for them at a certain proficiency. At the time, I thought I didn't want the lessons (too many other classes I wanted), so I took and passed the test. No lessons needed.

The next semester, I decided I did want the lessons, but they did not automatically let me take them... I had to audition for the lessons now!!

So what happened? I took the audition and failed! :eek:

Apparently I was good enough to not be forced to take the lessons, but not good enough to be allowed to take the lessons, even though they were required by my major. Now that's crazy!

[jesshmusic]

I think from what you describe there may have been two different types of lessons. One was to teach remedial keyboard to get you to the level of proficiency to play the piano.

The ones you ended up auditioning for (since you were already considered proficient) would have been the college level piano lessons. They would be much, much more picky. I also had to audition to take piano lessons when I was switching my principal instrument from trombone to piano. Even though I had taken two semesters of Keyboard Tech. Fortunately, I passed or I would not have been able to keep my music major!

If you want to better yourself on piano, you should look into private lessons off campus because they will not care what level you are currently. In the collegiate level piano lessons, you would have to be a particular level.

[GigaLove]

I thought 1st April was not until in two weeks....

[jesshmusic]

The woman did go on to say I am eligible to take those stupid music appreciation and history courses. No thank you.



You should take these if they let you. They are very valuable.

[jc5]

I must say, being devil's advocate, learn to play an instrument. And work hard doing it. It will make you a better composer. You don't have to be a master musician to be a composer, but the ability to play an instrument really is essential. I remember you got a keyboard. Is it full size? Are the keys weighted like a piano? It will have to do. Practice....practice....practice....practice.... Make it an obsession. If you want to be a composer, it's not a part time thing. And I will tell you composing is a thousand times less trying if you can play an instrument.

Jess is quite correct in this. My main instrument is the piano, and I can tell you that when I reached a certain skill level - the point where you leave behind the sonatinas and little learning pieces and start to work on the real concert repertoire, you will start to see and understand things in the music that you did not before, even if you already had known those pieces your entire life. Aspects of the construction of a piece become much clearer once you are recreating it with your own two hands in a way that simply is not the same when just listening, or even reading the score. My work as a composer rose to a new level in that time too, and it was no coincidence!

[Skysaw]

The ones you ended up auditioning for (since you were already considered proficient) would have been the college level piano lessons. They would be much, much more picky...

If you want to better yourself on piano, you should look into private lessons off campus because they will not care what level you are currently. In the collegiate level piano lessons, you would have to be a particular level.

They wouldn't let me take lessons of either sort after that. I think this was just a case of someone doing things by the book, and not taking a look at what was really going on.

In any case, I appreciate the help, but that was 20 years ago, so the situation has changed a bit :D

[jesshmusic]

I guess it has! :D :eek:

[SeanHannifin]

I cannot agree with the devil's advocates about the turning away of non-majors. Afterall, I just want to compose music; I don't want to make a living teaching or performing it (what else can you do with a music major? Lecture me if you must, I am young and ignorant :) ). If I could make a living composing, that would be great, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Having said that, I still don't understand why they would keep away music theory and composition classes and offer them only to those who are majors. I can't imagine there is such a high demand for them that they have to turn away non-majors. And is that all it is anyway? An excuse to turn students away? If there were less students in the school, would the requirement not exist? It seems like they are essentially telling me "since you cannot play an instrument, a composition class would not be suitable for you." I can make no sense of it.

As I said before, I am learning to play the keyboard I got for Christmas, and I realize the importance of playing an instrument. However, I still cannot agree that is should be a requirement for taking a composition class.

I will talk to some other professors in the music department and see if I can get in somehow. I'd hate to get through college and regret not taking a music class just because I wasn't a music major.


If you want to be a composer, it's not a part time thing.
It's gonna have to be, unless I starve myself to death, or find somebody to pay me for my music (which seems pretty doubtful). :D However, I do thank you for your advice about playing an instrument, and if I can't get in next semester, that will be the road I have to take.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to comment, and for your support! :)

[amb]

Does your school of choice not offer any private classes to get you up to par with piano or any other instruments ?

Maybe you could get a student tutor and learn enough during the first semester to pass the entrance tests for second semester ?

[jesshmusic]

You're not that young because you are in college. :D

C'mon man, all composers play an instrument. You don't have to be a performer (Debussy was actually a really, really bad pianist), but you do need to know the mind of a performer. Do you read music?

I am not saying to be a composer you have to do nothing else, but I will tell you that if you are not ready for it, college Music Theory classes will kick your ~~~. They are the hardest classes Music Majors have to take. The professor will tell the students to play their exercises on the piano. You have great potential as a composer, but you do need to learn at least the piano to achieve this potential. I really hope you do my Composition Seminar that I am putting up some time today. I am going to try and cater to people without Music Theory (which is a prerequisite at most universities for composition), so I hope it will be helpful.

On this subject, my former Composition and Theory professor were discussing this just the other night. To get a Masters Degree in Composition, you have to have proficiency in an instrument. You really will be amazed how much your compositions improve as your skill as a performer improves. Think of the things you will discover through improvization...

If you could get the money for piano lessons, good teachers will teach Theory also. What you seek is out there, but nothing will change the fact that composers play instruments. I am very surprised that you don't want to learn an instrument. Think of how much better it would be to sit at a piano and play your piece for friends than to pop in a CD.

Don't let the impetuousness of youth be an impediment for what you want. ;)

[kitekrazy]

I'd think that school is not deserving of my hard earned dollars. I'd look for a school with a better open door policy. As mentioned before, there are online courses. Some schools will also have summer programs. Even though you may have to pay a lot more, I wouldn't rule out a private school-most of them can always use the extra money. There is also a never ending collecting of books that can be purchased. It's amazing what I see on the shelf of a Borders or Barnes.
Also from what I can tell, there are plenty of geniuses here who are probably just as helpful.

[SeanHannifin]

I am not saying to be a composer you have to do nothing else, but I will tell you that if you are not ready for it, college Music Theory classes will kick your ~~~.
You're right! :D The last thing I want is to have whined about not being able to take a music theory class and then failing it after fighting for it. That would really be a slap in the face! :o Is there any way to tell whether or not you're ready for it?

The university does offer private lessons, for a price I cannot pay. College already costs more than I can afford. Then again, I'm sure we could all take turns whining about how poor we all are. :D

I guess I'll spend as much time as possible practicing that keyboard, and of course participate in the GPO Academy. Perhaps I can try to audit a music theory course. That way, if it crushes me with music theory confusion, I will not die. :D

Overall, GMU is a great place, and I know the music department is great too (that's why I want in :D ). I'll get myself in sooner or later. In the meantime, please don't say to me "you should take a music theory course," because now you know I've tried! :D Thanks again everyone for your feedback.

[Hawkes]

Is there any way to tell whether or not you're ready for it?

You could just find out what books are used for the class, then go to the campus bookstore and look through them.

[jesshmusic]

I will tell you that learning to play the piano will be much more helpful to you in the short term than Theory would, so keep on doing that for now. :)

[Brian2112]

Dear Sean...This is Brian's dad speaking; I am visiting him just now in Texas. I am really looking forward to seeing you at GMU. My office is in Science & Tech II, room 111a. My GMU phone is 703-993-1694. My home phone is 703-698-9515. My home e-mail is dschum398@earthlink.net and I am at dschum@gmu.edu. I hope to see you soon...all the best...Dave Schum


PS I am usually in all day on Wednesdays. But just let me know when you can come by.

[Looper]

I will tell you that learning to play the piano will be much more helpful to you in the short term than Theory would, so keep on doing that for now. :)

Jess,

How long would it take on average for a beginner to get proficient enough at piano to be accepted into college? Would weekly lessons be necessary or would self-study be adequate?

Thanks.

[jesshmusic]

It depends on how hard you work, how hard you pay attention to fingerings, scales, etc.

If you can play the Mozart Sonata in C you are in. If that is the only piece you can play, you are in trouble.

Scales: both hands, four octaves at a decent clip. (Not too fast)

The hard part: Practice Bach Inventions. Buy the book. Mind you, after working your butt off to learn a couple, you will cringe at the mere mention of his name and get snippy with NPR whenever his music is broadcast. This music teaches you to play with both hands. And will separate you from the 'keyboardists'.


Get all of the beginner's books that will get you to this point. Get a pendulum metronome and use it until you hear little voices in your head. (I swear, I did not destroy mine, I just can't find it!)

Play your compositions on the piano (that are for piano). This will be an eye opener even at slow tempos what difficulties may arise.

So, to answer your question... ah... I don't know. Where are you now? A Composition major has to take 8 semesters of applied music (instrument or voice). This is a fact at any accredited University except for liberal arts schools... you know Harvard, Yale, etc. (Although Vanderbilt has a peculiar thing.. a performance school)


Nuff said for now. I must go get some fooood.

[amb]

I will say again - you may want to check into a student tutor .

You could get weekly/bi-weekly classes for maybe 15 - 20 dollars a class .

College kids can always use some extra $$ and a lot would do it for cheap since it would look good (probably only thing) on resume' .

It is good to have people show you the proper way at first IMO so you do not learn the wrong eay and have to be reprogrammed later on .

Just a though , some may argue .

[jesshmusic]

Yes, student tutors are an excellent idea, although keep in mind they have a lot of work to do if they are performance majors. Definately pursue this....or start dating a piano student. ;)

[lontas]

A warning, from the other side of the fence... If you want to take theory classes for the purpose of developing your composition skills, you may end up disappointed. My theory professors have continuously shunned creativity in favor of writing "by the book". If, on the other hand, you want to learn the compositional styles of Bach and other historically important composers, then go for it.

If you do want to develop your own creativity instead of copying other composers, then composition lessons are the way to go. You also have the advantage of one-on-one attention with these, so you'd probably learn more and at a faster pace. Best of luck.

Chris

[jesshmusic]

Believe it or not, Music Theory is to help peformance skills, not composition. But, one needs to have a knowledge of some Theory to compose and understand the works of the masters.

[Looper]

The hard part: Practice Bach Inventions. Buy the book. Mind you, after working your butt off to learn a couple, you will cringe at the mere mention of his name and get snippy with NPR whenever his music is broadcast. This music teaches you to play with both hands. And will separate you from the 'keyboardists'.



A number of years ago, I wanted to prove that I could play with both hands, so I memorized about 5 or 6 Two-Part Inventions. It was a lot of work but I found these were the only pieces I could play, I still couldn't improvise or sight read even simple pieces. I eventually fell off the practice wagon and have lost what skills I had but this thread has made seriously consider working on my keyboard skills once more.

Am I correct in saying, you can't get to a certain level then quit practicing, you have to keep working or you'll forget most of what you learned.

[jesshmusic]

Practicing credo:

Go one day without practicing you notice.
Go two days, your fellow musicians notice.
Go three days, everyone notices. :D


Must practice constantly to maintain your skill level. Professionals practice four hours a day and rarely go a day without practice. If you just want to play for yourself, you should at least practice every day for at least half an hour. But, whatever pieces you don't rehearse will likely no longer be playable, but they can be re-learned faster.

[SeanHannifin]

Believe it or not, Music Theory is to help peformance skills, not composition. But, one needs to have a knowledge of some Theory to compose and understand the works of the masters.
Hmmm . . . this causes me to wonder. I know the Music Theory classes are prerequisites for the composition class. If I took any music classes, my focus would be on composition, not performance. However, perhaps the music department focuses more on performance, and this is the reason they reject non-instrument players?

As I said before, I don't seek a degree in music, since I know there are certain performing requirements involved, and that is simply not my goal. I simply want to develop my composition skills. If that means working on performing skills, I'll gladly practice performing as much as I can, but I do it only so I can become a better composer, not the other way around. Perhaps music departments tend to have it the other way around, and thus my predicament?

[jesshmusic]

Keep practicing, and update me if you want as to what you can play. Don't neglect scales. Major, harmonic and melodic minor, chromatic, and arrpegios (major and minor). Do each one two octaves with each hand, then together, Start off easy: C major (A minor), G Major (E minor). Play through the books you purchased. Practice everyday.

It will make you a better composer. Your skill as a performer has a direct correlation on what you can do as a composer. We don't have to be master performers (or even good ones), but we do need the skill.

Have you checked out my Composition Seminar in the GPO Academy?

[Trolls]

Sean,
Have you considered doing a Music Minor? It would then require you to take the theory classes (and the necessary history courses which are just as important), usually without having to do the performing requirements (except having to sing in the choir, which is excellent experience). It's also a way to circumvent the issue you're having getting into class, and after you take the theory classes, you could then drop the minor.

Just a thought from someone in the system.

Tim

[trentpmcd]

Sean,

I can emphasize. When I was in collage, many years ago, I wanted to take some theory classes but couldn’t.

I did take a couple of appreciation classes. The first was just a general overview of Western music and was filled with people who just wanted a check in the box for their humanities requirement, but it did fill in some gaps I had.

The second was a class on 20th century music. I would say, looking at my life now, this was the most influential class I ever took. I never used physics or number theory or combinatorics or (name any course here) but I have kept with music. Before the class I didn’t really care for most 20th century music. A little later, when I was switching from vinyl to CD (I was the first person on the block with a CD player) and CDs still cost more than 3 times as much as vinyl, of my first 10 CDs three of them were Stravinsky, Bartok and Hindermuth.

One thing you should do is look at the bulletin board in the music school for students offering lessons. Then try the local music store. As others have said, you should be able to find someone out there at a price you can live with. I’ll just say I wish I did this while I was in school.

(On a side note, at about twice your age and after over 20 years of playing around with the piano on my own, I finally signed up for some lessons. I can read through Mozart’s Sonata in C but it isn’t pretty. I can play a few inventions and fugues, but again, they aren’t pretty. I’m also going to take private composition lessons. I’ll meet my prospective instructor on April 1. I can’t wait…)

After writing for years with less music theory than I thought I had I can tell you it is important in some ways. There are parts that I wrote that never sounded quite right. Now I know why. Strangely enough, it also greatly freed me. I did write a lot of non-diatonic notes and strange chords, but for the most part I was still very conservative. I also rarely did convincing modulations. In my opinion perhaps the defining element of Western art music, or classical music, or what ever you want to call it, is modulation.

I would say study some theory on your own. Most of the music majors that will be in any class you hopefully finally take will have some background in theory already – you will need some just to stay even.

As somebody else has said, find out what book they are using and study it. If they are not using Schoenberg’s book, buy it and study it too – he does theory from the view of using it for composition, not analysis. And don’t worry – he is actually conservative in how he teaches harmony and doesn’t bring 12-tone into it at all.

I hope you get the classes you want, but I must also say that I understand the schools point of view.

As far as I can tell, most schools and departments offer two types of classes – one open to the general student and one open to majors only. If you are an English major they won’t let you take classes on quantum theory, no matter how interested you are. If you are an engineering student you can’t go in and take classes reserved for Journalism students. The schools need to ensure the students majoring in a subject get the resources they need, including the professors’ time and attention. At least that’s how it was when I was in school.

However, I think that people could get into almost any class with the instructors approval. That’s another thing you should work on – trying to talk to actual instructors instead of receptionists. And talk face to face, not email.

Anyway, good luck.

[jesshmusic]

Sean: Here is a list of books to help you out in addition to the Shoenberg Harmony book...

The Technique of Orchestration by Kent Kennan and Donald Graham. (Go ahead and get the hardcover, you will reference it the rest of your days)

Counterpoint by Johann Fux, translated by Alfred Mann (work this from cover to cover)


The Schoenberg Harmony book is what my professor used as a guide for teaching Theory, although the Spencer book was our text. He really doesn't reccommend it.

[Trolls]

Sean: Here is a list of books to help you out in addition to the Shoenberg Harmony book...

The Technique of Orchestration by Kent Kennan and Donald Graham. (Go ahead and get the hardcover, you will reference it the rest of your days)

Counterpoint by Johann Fux, translated by Alfred Mann (work this from cover to cover)


The Schoenberg Harmony book is what my professor used as a guide for teaching Theory, although the Spencer book was our text. He really doesn't reccommend it.

Other Theory Books to consider

Tonal Harmony by Stefan Kostka and Dorothy Payne
Music in Theory and Practice (?) by Bruce Benward

Counterpoint by Kent Kennan

BTW, Kennan's Orchestration book is one of the best out there. Jess is right, get it. You'll use it for the rest of your life.

I don't recommend Schoenberg's Harmony. It's way outdated. Fux is good, but there are species counterpoint books out now that are easier to read.

Tim

[SeanHannifin]

Luckily I've got the good old university library so that I can check these books out without needing to make any purchases (which is good, because I'm pretty darn broke right now). Thanks for the suggestions and all the feedback and support!