COMPOSITION SEMINAR PART 1

[jesshmusic]

Here is the first part of my basic compositional technique seminar. Since most everyone here has tried composing before I am going to cut you guys loose... a little bit... on the first assignment.

What we want to work on here is the basic manipulation of the motive and how important it is to everything that is composed. The best example of the use of motive is also the easiest to pick out the motive on listening. Beethoven composed his 5th Symphony based on the very famous four note motive.

Motive consists of two elements:

1. Actual notes
2. Rhythm

The first element can be manipulated using the following methods:

1. Transposition: This is the most used. Note the opening bars of Beethoven's 5th. The first time the motive is played it is G G G Eb. Then this main motive is transposed in the next figure to F F F D.
2. Inversion: This is, simply stated, flipping the tones upside down. A note in the motive is used as a pivot and the others move around it. It is best to see it done to understand it better. There is a sample in the attached pdf.
3. Retrograde: The motive is written backwards.
4. Augmentation: The motive is extended at the end with extra notes.
5. Retardation: Some of the motive notes are left out. Makes the motive shorter.

The second element can also be used in very interesting ways. Different notes applied to the same motive rhythm are allowable.

Study the brief pdf file showing the ways that the motive can be manipulated carefully. Compose a short piece for solo, unaccompanied clarinet using this motive. Do not think about harmony or scales yet. Keep the intervals in tact, so there should not be any minor seconds or thirds during the motive, but inbetween instances of the motive any interval can be done.

Do not concern yourselves with form or chords yet. Consider this a free form piece.


This is a simple exercise meant to teach motivic development. Good luck and post your assignments here when completed. You should also leave any comments or questions here.

ASSIGNMENT:
http://www.fupduckonline.com/Comp-seminar/CompositionSeminar1.pdf

[Sepheritoh]

Should we post our assignments in mid or overture format?

My freeware pdf creator does not embed all the fonts.

[jesshmusic]

If you can't make a readable pdf or Finale file, then post it as a midi file. i can import that into Finale. :)

I would like to look at you guys notate things also, but we can jump off that bridge when we get to it.

[Richard N.]

Is there any timescale that we should be working to?

Also, would you recommend for this exercise a fairly short motif, worked up to a piece of 8 to 12 measures?

[Sepheritoh]

OK. I managed to get the fonts embedded, but the allignment is slightly missed on some notes.

Specially designed as a short piece to fit on one page.

http://www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/gpo_seminar_1.pdf

I have to set the standard low enough so that I can only improve in future.

[jesshmusic]

Is there any timescale that we should be working to?

Also, would you recommend for this exercise a fairly short motif, worked up to a piece of 8 to 12 measures?

No particular length is reccomended. I would say do what you can with the assigned motive we will look at it from there. It is possible to get a lot more than 8-12 measures, I would think.

Don't forget that most composers get tired of their own ideas long before the listener would. (except Phillip Glass:D)

[jesshmusic]

OK. I managed to get the fonts embedded, but the allignment is slightly missed on some notes.



Nice job. Now, here is what needs to be done. :D

1. Dynamics. A solo piece needs to be really dynamic. So make sure to add dynamics.
2. Articulations: The only articulations are the stacattos in the penultimate measure. Be sure to go through and add articulations.
3. Range: The clarinet has a wonderful range. Your piece is right in the middle of the range. GPO's sample really captures the different sounds of it's range from the low sonorous sound to the high pitches. You wouldn't need to change what is written, just change the octaves of some figures. The clarinet is a very, very agile instrument. It can play almost as fast as the flute and violin. That is super fast. It can make large interval leaps with relative ease. You should experiment with this.

There are some great ideas here. I hope to see more soon. :)

[Sepheritoh]

Thanks for the quick feedback. I'll be working on the improvements as suggested. Are we allowed to post a second attempt?

[jesshmusic]

Thanks for the quick feedback. I'll be working on the improvements as suggested. Are we allowed to post a second attempt?

Sure. ;)

I actually encourage that.

[Joseph Burrell]

So what happens when our creative flow takes us completely AWOL and we end up delving into things not covered in your lesson like what just happened to me (and where trying to follow the guidelines actually caused me to lose focus)? :)

[Looper]

Can we email our assignments to you? My clarinet tune is ready but nowhere to post it.

Thanks.

[Sepheritoh]

Improved version

http://www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/gpo_seminar_1b.pdf

I don't know if I am taking the class too serious yet, but the teach forced me refering to my Forsyth again :)

Anybody who want me to put their scores on my site can email (sepheritoh at dog-on-blues dot co dot za) me the pdf. I can not promise speed though 'cause I have a real daytime job too and read my emails in the evenings only. (today is a public holliday and it should be OK now)

[edit for typos]

[jesshmusic]

So what happens when our creative flow takes us completely AWOL and we end up delving into things not covered in your lesson like what just happened to me (and where trying to follow the guidelines actually caused me to lose focus)? :)

Ok, now I am excited to see your assignment. :D The main requirement is use of motive and making the piece for unaccompanied clarinet. Let's see what you got.


NOTE: If anyone needs to email their assignment, that will be fine. I will need to setup an email for it and I will post that here.


@Sepheritoh: I will check on your updated assignment soon. ;)

[Joseph Burrell]

Well, that's good. I did use some of the methods of expanding the motive (ie: transposition, inversion, and augmentation) but then I just built on it and around it as my ears saw fit. I want to make sure that I'm still within the bounds of the lesson though. Thanks for confirming that. I'll do it again tonight since I was mostly checking to see what would happen last night (read that as, I should have saved the file, but did not.) Don't expect anything special, I don't know what I'm doing, but just following my ears.

Edit: And as an aside, this was much more fun than I thought it'd be and since it goes against my normal way of making music, was surprisingly satisfying to hear the end result.

[jesshmusic]

When I first started composition lessons, I was taught the same way (I was give a motive of two quarter notes: A B). It was such a change from composing by ear. It was soon after I noticed the quality of my music went up dramatically. Continuity is very important to music. Even wacky, non meter atonal concoctions have something (pitch set, motive, etc.) that binds the piece together.

TO ALL STUDENTS: I suggest listening to the entire Symphony No. 5 of Beethoven. For most of you it will be the second time. If you can I suggest you go to your local college library where you can view the score or do it on line. Follow the score as you listen to all four movements. Note where the motive is easily discernible. Then, if you have time, study the score carefully, melody and harmony. Remember the motive and notice how often it occurs in some fashion. It will blow your mind. This is how the masters worked. The seed grows the tree. Most motives are not terribly long, but can yield great things.

[BermudaFlyer]

This is a great thread, Jess. Well done. :cool:

[jesshmusic]

Improved version

http://www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/gpo_seminar_1b.pdf

I don't know if I am taking the class too serious yet, but the teach forced me refering to my Forsyth again :)

Anybody who want me to put their scores on my site can email (sepheritoh at dog-on-blues dot co dot za) me the pdf. I can not promise speed though 'cause I have a real daytime job too and read my emails in the evenings only. (today is a public holliday and it should be OK now)

[edit for typos]


Excellent update. A couple minor suggestions:

1. You might want to slur some passages.
2. Even more articulations and dynamics. Don't forget accents. ( > )


Couple minor notation nitpicks:

1. The crescendos and decrescendos should actually go below the staff.
2. In bar 11, I think you accidentally clicked an extra note. :D
3. Ritardando and Accelerando should be abreviated and put at the top of the staff.
4. The ritardando should be followed by an a tempo at the bar you want the original tempo to resume. If you want it to go a long time, a dasehd bracket should be put to the right of the word rit. or accel. until the a tempo happens. I don't know how to do this in Overture, but I am sure one of the Overture gurus here can help.

Your developement of the motive is excellent.

[Sepheritoh]

Jess thank you very much for giving such great tips with the notation as well. being a lazy guy who mostly worked with Sonar's piano roll it is refressing to work the correct way.

Some of the faults, like the abbreviation of accelerando and retardo is overture's fault. The full versions are built into the program. If I use text to put it on the score, it does not play back correct. The extra note would have been sloppy work on my side and I deserve a point or two being taken off and the accents are also my sloppyness. I am too used to just edit the velocity of the notes.

My I ask a question about the slurs? The fast up-run was put in with the actual intervals and rhythm of the original theme, but just a lot faster. If I do that as a slur the player / reader may miss that. On the other hand, due to the vastly increased speed, the motif is not recognisable at all when played back. In such a case, would it be better to just take the shortcut by using a slur?

Thank you very much for the very valuable help :)

[Sepheritoh]

Note: I am not educated in classical scores as such.

A note to fellow classmates: One score that I have studied in a bit more detail is the Hook theme of John Williams and at the time I thought it was a great example of theme development. IMO JW's scores are especially a fine study about how theme development can be enhanced by the use of orchestration.

[jesshmusic]

On the fast run up (I assume bars 8 and 9?) the slurs don't have to be the whole thing, but at the tempo you have, it would make the passage easier.

Also, those grace notes might be difficult for the player. You might consider changing the grace note patterns in meaures 8 & 9 to sextuplets. The last beat of bar 8 would then be 2 sixteenths and 3 sextuplets. That is probably what the performer would play anyway at that tempo. I wish I weren't at work. I would like to plunk this on the old piano so I can hear it in my head better. The same can be done in bar 10, so the two figures would be one 8th note and 3 sextuplets.


Regarding John Williams... he actually uses a technique called "leit motif" to compose his scores that Wagner used extensively. So each character has it's own motive.

[lukpcn]

Note the opening bars of Beethoven's 5th. The first time the motive is played it is G G G Eb. Then this main motive is transposed in the next figure to F F F D.


I've never listen to it that way... but i do it right now... and i tell You: oh man You're right... :eek:

[chet reinhardt]

This has been great fun and crystalized a number of things for me, too many to go into them all but a few interesting ones include:

I have apparently been unconsciously constructing my own music theory and this seminar has goaded me into starting to articulate it. (Old habits of mind from my days of applied mathematical model building/knowledge engineering I suppose.) What a surprise.

I have decided on some works to focus on: Mozart's Haydn Quartets, Bach's Goldberg Variations, some of his Preludes and Fugues, as well as some non-standard choices such as Django's Nuages, some Chet Atkin's, and Ravi Shankar and Indian music. I plan to focus on this set of works in general and a few of them in greater depth.

I have also discovered that trying to develop something using chromatic rather than diatonic transposition is extremely difficult for me. I find diatonic transposition easy and fun and like the results. But when I listened to what I made using chromatic transposition it was (to me) like chalk screetching on a blackboard. So I hope you don't mind that I will be submitting something that I find less aesthetically jarring. I think I know some of the reasons for your original constraints (at least I thought up 5 or 6 good reasons why it would be educational to do it that way) but for whatever reason I find it an intuition killer. I can run through the mechanics of the exercise but... (Isn't this an interesting result? In any case, it was one of the things that made me want to study Mozart's use of chromaticism in the Haydn Quartets and that led me to consider what other works I'd like to focus on.)

As to the exercise: although I used diatonic transposition instead of chromatic it otherwise satisfies the constraints of the exercise. It includes all the forms of development. When I extended the motive I used bits of the motive or its transforms instead of an arbitrary extension. I don't usually use retrograde and it was nice to be reminded of it. I stretched length but--since I didn't have Kennan's Techniques untill late yesterday and didn't know how fast a passage was comfortable--I didn't compress. Although far from a final state, I find the result rather pleasant.

I haven't installed the pdf driver yet. If that goes smoothly and it works well with Overture I will be able to submit my effort in that form. If not I'll be using a midi-file. As to notation, I am familiar with tweaking midi-parameters but I am very new to notation. If I do get the pdf stuff working that will be very obvious.

I look forward to the e-mail option for submitting excercises as I have yet to find a way of posting my music that doesn't require me to disable my security and privacy settings.

Thanks for creating such a stimulating opportunity. I am benefiting in more ways than I can say.

[Sepheritoh]

The midi file for Chet's exercise:

http://www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/ChetR_-_JH_course_Exercise_1.mid

[chet reinhardt]

Perhaps I should clarify one point from the previous post.

I said that I was new to notation. More precisely, although I have been entering notes in the staff view in Sonar (and before that ProAudio 9, and before that ...) it has only been in the last month that I've had any experience with a notation program (i.e. Overture).

Thanks again for this great opportunity to deepen my understanding and abilities.

[Sepheritoh]

Perhaps I should clarify one point from the previous post.

I said that I was new to notation. More precisely, although I have been entering notes in the staff view in Sonar (and before that ProAudio 9, and before that ...) it has only been in the last month that I've had any experience with a notation program (i.e. Overture).

Thanks again for this great opportunity to deepen my understanding and abilities.

Chat I am in a similar position, but at least you have some advantage over me. I have been using the piano roll in Sonar all the time. This is a great opportunity for me to learn how to use notation, and Jess is really such a great teacher that we have here to help us. Those tips & advice he gave above helped me more than I could have learned myself with many many hours of self study.

Jess, thanks again. It is MUCH appreciated what you are doing.

[chet reinhardt]

Thanks to sepheritoh's kind assistance I have been able to make a midi-file of my effort available at:

http://www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/ChetR_-_JH_course_Exercise_1.mid

Thanks sepheritoh.

By the way, I think we all bring advantages to all of our endeavors due to our backgrounds and experiences and if we do the musical equivalent of speaking in our natural voices good things will result. Best wishes.

[jesshmusic]

Thanks to sepheritoh's kind assistance I have been able to make a midi-file of my effort available at:

http://www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/ChetR_-_JH_course_Exercise_1.mid

Thanks sepheritoh.

By the way, I think we all bring advantages to all of our endeavors due to our backgrounds and experiences and if we do the musical equivalent of speaking in our natural voices good things will result. Best wishes.


I listen to your piece last night and it is very nice. We do need to find a way to get a score posted, so I can see articulation, dynamics, etc.

For what I heard (and my stupid Quicktime MIDI used piano instead of clarinet), you have some nice ideas there.

A couple of notes just based on hearing it:

1. If you are going to compose it diatonically, you must not be afraid to explore key changes. You musn't restrict yourself to 7 notes.
2. Another thing is to explore the range of the instrument further and to remember that a clarinettist can handle large skips better than a pianist.


I didn't hear any accents or dynamics, but I am sure that is just a MIDI thing.


For everyone:

On these solo pieces, we must try to fluctuate the tempo some. Imagine being a clarinettist. No one is around. Perhaps you are outside. You have this three note motive. What do you do with it? That's the idea.

I realize that on a Windows system making a PDF is a big pain. Maybe screen shots can be takin of the scores?

We'll figure it out. I will get that email set up soon.

[SeanHannifin]

I posted this long ago, but it may be useful to windows users (like me!)

http://www.primopdf.com/

It's a free pdf creator. It installs as a printer, then you simply print to it from any notation program. Works fine with Overture. Hope it helps! :)

[trentpmcd]

Jess,

Looks like a very good lesson. I hope you will except "late" assignments - I most likely won't even be able to look at this until the middle of next week. I've been very busy and am about to leave on a ski trip...

[jesshmusic]

I will be doing this assignment for two weeks because I am going to Lousiana this weekend. :)

[jesshmusic]

Hi Jess

I've tried to follow your brief, but I'm not really very comfortable with this non-diatonic stuff.

"www.steve-dunster.com/GPO Composition Seminar - Part 1.tif"

Thanks for your time

Steve Dunster


Good work. My only comment is that in the first few bars when the crescendos and decrescendos occur, dynamics should be notated so the performer knows how far to crescendo and decrescendo.

You guys shouldn't worry so much about the diatonic-chromatic question. Listen to Wagner to get ideas of how to make melodies more chromatic. We must not restrict ourselves to major and minor. ;)

A couple hints when non-diatonic music is sounding atonal....

1.... Avoid the leap of a diminished fifth (or augmented fourth) as much as possible unless it is immediatly followed by a half step movement up: i.e. C, F#, G This is not a rule, just something that I tend to do.

2.... Let your original motive be your tonal center. Try to lead you chromaticism away from and back to this home base. It is much easier to create tension and release in modern music. That is why John Williams does so well. He is able to weave atonality and tonality together flawlessly. He composes as much atonal as tonal music. It is the key to his success. :)

It may take some extra work, but just because we are not using a particular key, does not mean it has to sound dissonant. Play through your ideas on your instrument and refine them.

Great work so far on the assignments, everyone. :)

[scottnorma]

I'm not really very comfortable with this non-diatonic stuff.

If you want to get serious about learning how to write chromatically, get the score and recording to the following works:

Bach's Chromatic Fantasy
Goldberg Variation no.25
Wagner's Prelude to Tristan und Isolde (Make a piano reduction of this.)
Tchaikovsky Sym. no.4/mvmt. I (And another piano reduction of this.)

Study these and ingrain them and you'll be well on your way.

[scottnorma]

Sepheritoh, in the future your grace note stems need to go up and they need to be slurred, but in this case you can't really apply them to 16th notes because the tempo is too fast. Also, watch out for your courtesy accidentals. Some are missing.

[beardedone]

This is very interesting and I commend you on the choice of topic. Motive-based writing is how I started working when I discovered sequencers back in 2000. Now that I am using a Scoring program (Overture with GPO) I continue to apply these principles.

Btw my favotite composition on a short motif is Brahm's second symphony. After nearly half a lifetime of listening it continues to astonish me.

I will try to complete this assignment but I will not be submitting - I don't have a PDF app on my DAW.

Cheers,
Gordon

[jesshmusic]

One solution for students who would like to submit scores, but can't make PDFs is to download Finale Notepad. It is a free, easy to use Notation program. I don't think it works with GPO, but it does work with my copy of Finale. That way I can comment on notation, which I consider very important to the composition process.

It is here: http://www.finalemusic.com/notepad/index.asp

ASSIGNMENT NO. 2

For those who have completed the first assignment, I am going to go ahead and post the second assignment. If you have completed the first assignment, but not submitted, it is okay to go ahead with the second assignment, just submit both assignments when you are ready. :) I do ask that everyone complete the first assignment before starting the second.


Instrumentation: Solo Piano
Form: A A B B .... This is the simplest multi theme form in music. For this assignment each theme need only be eight bars or so with repeats (16 bars total for each theme). In classical harmony the first theme would be in the key of the piece, the second theme would start on the dominant (V chord) of the home key. In a minor key it would be the relative major. i.e. A piece with the "A" theme in G Major would start in D7 for theme "B". A piece in G minor would modulate to Bb major for the second theme. If you decide to write non-traditional harmony, modulation of some kind is still needed, but the composer is free to move the tonal center however he or she pleases. Hindemith liked to move it up one whole step, for example.
Motive: Composer's discretion. Just make sure that Theme A and B are based on the same motive.



--I am still taking submissions of the first assignment--


If there are any questions, post them here.

[southportJim]

--I am still taking submissions of the first assignment--

If there are any questions, post them here.

Jess,

Is there an email address for submitting assignments? If you have posted it, I missed it somehow.

[jesshmusic]

I will set up an email tonight and post it here. :)

[Sepheritoh]

I love the 2nd assignment! Thanks Jess.

A google brought me upon a very interesting page on this subject. I'm sure many who follow this seminar will find benefit from it too.

http://musicweb.koncon.nl/anintro/ps-ana-mottech/langevb;context=demo

[Sepheritoh]

Jess. One more question on assignment 2: Does any of the rules of assignment 1 still apply, i.e. do we still have to stick to the same intervals or could we expand the motif and change rhythm?

[scottnorma]

Of course the most important aspect of motivic development is the initial motivic construction. You have to start right to do it right. The best way to survey the myriad musical ways this can be accomplished is to get a copy of "A Dictionary of Musical Themes" by Barlow and Morgenstern (published by Crown). It's got over 10,000 themes written by the masters. It covers strictly instrumental works (there's a separate one for opera themes), and includes the lion's share of instrumental themes over the past few hundred years or so. Especially helpful is to go through the sections on Mozart and Beethoven. Quartets, Sonatas, Concertos, Symphonies, the main and secondary themes with their attendant motives are all there. The invention is endless.

It's also interesting to see that the classical period employed more obvious motivic development than, say, the Romantic period, and how motivic development in the Baroque period was largely exploited contrapuntally. For example, if you study the Beethoven sketch books you gain valuable insight into his thematic development as regards the potential for motivic exploitation. And I don't mean thematic development within the composition itself, but thematic development in terms of bringing a theme-in-progress to a point suitable for using in a composition. What you see is that early in that stage, he would come up with a theme that was fully formed in and of itself and was, as a stand-alone theme, the "best" version. But he didn't want that. He didn't want a theme that filled in all the blanks and could do everything on its own. He wanted a "pregnant" theme, for lack of a better word - a theme that yearned for development. Those earlier, more "complete" themes, though very solid in and of themselves, didn't cry out for that. They were too independent. So he kept working on that fully formed theme until it arrived at a condition suitable for using in a compostion.

Contrast this with Tchaikovsky for example. This great theme writer used a different approach. He did employ the fully formed themes. He wasn't so much interested in motivic development as Beethoven, Mozart, or others from the classical period. His development process was the unfolding of the drama that the initial theme afforded. His themes were not generally pregnant for motivic development, but rather for dramatic development. (Yes, there are exceptions to this - his famous Piano Concerto for example employed motivic development a little more in the classical vein.)

Then, if you go back and look at how motivic development was handled in the Baroque period, you'll see how it was, not surprisingly, contrapuntally based. I mean, that's what the imitative forms were really all about. Look at all the invertible canons in augmentation, diminution, inversion, transposition, retrograde, and the combinations of those imitative variation techniques. Bach's "Art of the Fugue" all by itself basically has just the one theme (subject), and every fugue and canon after that is based on a variation of that initial subject. Bach laid the groundwork for everyone else. And looking at each of the fugue subjects in his WTC is another incredible survey of theme/subject creation. No two are approached in the same way. It's really quite incredible. (One of them is even practically a tone row.) Some are more obviously set up with motivic interest in mind (strongly rhythmically based), whereas others are more subtle and suggest that perhaps the most interest will be found in how they are treated harmonically. But they all, upon hearing them at first, set the listener up for their ultimate development and maturation.

Other techniques to observe would be how motives are used in modulations, modulatory type sections, and otherwise roving through various key regions. Mozart's Symphony no. 40, first movement is an excellent example. Look at the development section. The main motive is used as a thrust mechanism to spur transitory key roving. It's a lesson all by itself. A modern example of motivic development that employs classical technique is the first movement of Shostakovich's 5th symphony. It makes for a good study in a more modern vein and is awfully fun to listen to besides.

Cheers.

[jesshmusic]

Jess. One more question on assignment 2: Does any of the rules of assignment 1 still apply, i.e. do we still have to stick to the same intervals or could we expand the motif and change rhythm?


You should create your own short motive for this piece and expound on that. :)

[scottnorma]

Hi Steve. You have good ideas, and it's a nice piece, but I think that trying to compose something in this vein before a thorough study of contrapuntal technique has begun may be putting the cart before the horse. For example, every parallel fifth stands out in a piece like this. The repeated unisons are another issue - the flow stops and becomes static along with the harmonic rhythm.

If you're serious about pursuing composition, a well-ingrained contrapuntal/voice leading frame of reference will be necessary and it needs to begin right from the start. I can recommend that you purchase a book for this titled, "Counterpoint in Composition", by Felix Salzer and Carl Schachter (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cup/catalog/data/023107/023107039X.HTM). If you sink your teeth into this excellent book from cover to cover and do every exercise it will take you very, very far. I've studied numerous books on contrapuntal technique over the years and this is far and away the one to get. And it integrates counterpoint with harmony in a way that will shed new light on any advanced harmonic studies you may pursue in the future.

Cheers.

[scottnorma]

Steve, there's no reason to be self-conscious about your posting. General MIDI on computer never comes off well. I brought up the subject of counterpoint because I could see in your piece that you seemed to have a natural tendency towards it. The overall fabric was contrapuntal in nature, not so much in the homophonic vein, and when someone does this I kind of sense that their aptitude may lean contrapuntally, which is definitely a good thing.

[scottnorma]

I will be finding out how much both of these books are and put a bid into the "treasurer", when she gets back from work!
Just don't forget the treasurer's birthday or anniversary.

[chet reinhardt]

Jess

I've had great fun with exercise one.

I have successfully installed and used a pdf printer driver and now have a pdf of the score of the revised first exercise that I have sent to Sepheritoh for posting.

Per your suggestions it now has two key areas (C and A-flat) and a definately non-modal theme that I use to bridge the two areas.It has a sort of A B A form except that the first two sections are derrived from the third (which was the original piece). I used the motive at a larger scale to construct the macro-structure of the piece. Probably not very visible but it was lots of fun to do it that way and I like the result. Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

I haven't had as much luck with notation. I've added slurs to the score but that's it. Since I have a very deep improvisational background, an idiosyncratic compositional background, and next to no background with full-fledged notation it is not surprising that this is an area that is slow going for me. My challenge is to connect my improvisational intuition (which is well-developed) with explicit notation.

I expect that I would be best off to proceed step by step and not try to rush the process. Perhaps focusing on one aspect of notation at a time (i.e. one time slurs, one time dynamics, one time one sort of articulation, one time another sort of articulation, etc.) I don't want to just stick cryptic marks on the score in possibly strange and grotesque places. I would like to understand what they mean with respect to the score (and that takes time.)

In any case, I could use a good book or two on the subject. Perhaps a reference summary with brief descriptions would be sufficient, perhaps I could profit from something more extensive. And again, ny suggestions are welcome.

Thanks for making this wonderful experience possible.

[scottnorma]

In any case, I could use a good book or two on the subject. Perhaps a reference summary with brief descriptions would be sufficient, perhaps I could profit from something more extensive. And again, ny suggestions are welcome.
The best book on the subject of notation is:

Score Format, Layout, and Notation, by William J. Maloof
(It can be a bit hard to find, but it's worth it if you can track one down. All of the other books on the subject pale in comparison.)

As a handy pocket-sized reference, in addition to the above you could get:

The Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, by Gerou and Lusk

If you can't find the Maloof book, you could go with something like:

The Norton Manual of Music Notation, by George Heussenstamm

The Gardner Reed and Kurt Stone books are okay in some respects, but problematic in others, but I won't get into that here. Of the two, the Stone book is the better.

Cheers.

[chet reinhardt]

Scott

Thanks for the references. Sounds like just what I need. By the way, Barlow and Morgenstern sounds like just my cup of tea. I have a section in my library on the intellectual history of various theories (a history of theories about rain, a history of mathematical theory, a history of anthropological thought, and the like) Barlow and Morgenstern will fit right in and it is just the sort of thing that will be helpful for my studies of various compositions. So thanks again.


Sepheritoh

Thanks for uploading my revised version of exercise one.

www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/The_Copper_Village_Fluctuations.pdf

Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

[scottnorma]

By the way, Barlow and Morgenstern sounds like just my cup of tea.
That's great, and I left out one very interesting and major aspect of the book. Let's say that you have this theme you've heard before bouncing around in your head. Maybe you heard it somewhere, on the radio, tv, or in a movie perhaps, or it's just somehow embedded in your musical memory and it pops up one day to vex you, but you can't recall the specific piece and/or composer. All you need do is transpose the notes to the key of C, C major or C minor as the case may be. Then you go to the back of the book and look up those notes just as you would look up a word alphabetically in the dictionary.

So, for example, say you have the second theme from Tchaikovsky's Capriccio Italien bouncing around in your head, but you can't remember the composer and/or title. So, even though the original is in A major, you transpose the melody to C major, which gives you the notes E G E G F E D E F F# G E. (And you don't even need to know that the original is in A major. You only need to recognize and trasnpose the original note relationships.) Then, you go to the back of the book and look up this note sequence alphabetically, and then it says T124. Then you go to the main body of the book, look under the T section until you find T124, and there you have the theme as originally notated, along with all of the other themes in Capriccio Italien.

I can't imagine how the authors were able to do this for over 10,000 themes covering over 200 years of music without going mad.

Cheers.

[jesshmusic]

www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/The_Copper_Village_Fluctuations.pdf

Any comments or suggestions are welcome.


Good Job.

For this exercise the motive should be introduced first. I notice it doesn't appear in it's original form as prescribed by the assignment. I can tell you used the motive to develop all of your figures and melodies, it's just that the motive is missing. :)

As for notation, you did a fine job with the slurs, your next step should be to add dynamics. One should always include an initial dynamic on the first note, so the performer knows where to start. So for your next update, add crescendos, decrescendos, and dynamic markings. After that we will work on articulation.

One thing that needs to also be addressed is the climatic moment in the piece. At some point in most music, a point of climax is reached and the rest of the piece comes down from that. Most beginning composers make the mistake of have the climax at the end, but this will leave the listener wanting more. The climax should be placed somewhere between two thirds and three quarters of the way through the piece.

The reason I mention this, is because I see a few places where your piece could climax, but it doesn't quite get there. (when you add dynamics this will help) There are several ways to achieve this. In your piece I would recommend using faster rhythms, sixteenth notes for example, and explore the higher range of the clarinet. Around bar 112, I would say to take that figure and make it gradually increase in tempo and result with the key change phrase an octave up and fortissimo. From there gradually bring the piece down until the end. Perhaps a slightly faster tempo would be appropriate at this point.

Keep up the good work, I look forward to more updates.

[jesshmusic]

Okay - here's the second assignment, really starting to enjoy this now!

"www.steve-dunster.com/GPO Composition Seminar - Part 2.tif"

www.steve-dunster.com/GPO_Composition_Seminar_Part_2.mid

...as I post I realise it is devoid of articulation and dynamic markings, DOH! apologies - I was so enjoying the motivic development thing and I was rushing because I have a paying composition I should be attending to. Please forgive - would hated to have missed this wonderful opportunity.

Thank you again for your time, effort and encouragement Jess,

Steve Dunster


Good.

Here are the comments:

1. Good work with phrasing and motivic development. Good work with the pedal markings, but the piece does need dynamic markings.

2. The B section needs a repeat marking to make the form balanced. A A B B

3. At the end of the first ending the last note in the right hand is a 7th away from the first note when the repeat is taking. This is a little difficult compared to the rest of the piece and will sound very abrupt. Perhaps the last four notes can continue descending closer to the middle C that starts the piece in the right hand.

4. In bars 11, 13, 15, & 17 you have a third inversion major seventh chord. That may be a bit jazzy for the style of piece you have composed. A different harmony in the right hand might be appropriate. I would suggest you keep the left hand and change the harmony in the right to the minor iii (b minor) for the first half and the dominate V (D7) for the second. See how this sounds. If you have access, I recommend playing through this on a keyboard. You will see quickly if something feels odd.
---NOTE:: I this is the sound you are going for, I would leave it as is, but this piece definately strikes me as neo-baroque, and that is a pretty extreme harmony.--

I hope to see an update soon. Keep it up!

[scottnorma]

...this piece definately strikes me as neo-baroque, and that is a pretty extreme harmony.
Jess, that was my interpretation as well, which in turn led me to mistakenly give the wrong advice regarding the advanced study of contrapuntal technique.

Though he'll obviously tell you more and clarify the situation, as a third party observer, I think what is happening is that he is trying to break out of that quasi-baroque/quasi-classical frame of reference and learn more modern principles of harmony, but reconciling that with your more traditional assignments may be at times a somewhat contradictory task. I've seen this before with my own students, and sometimes when someone wants to move to new ground, they begin by starting on old ground and inching their way towards where they want to go because they are still trying to form a full picture of the new frame of reference in their head.

This may be the difficulty of designing assignments in the current situation - that is, if everyone has a different place they want to go, which is likely the case. Perhaps there's a way you could design your assignments to give a little more leeway stylistically, while still getting across the major purpose of the assignment. But I know you've already done that to some extent, and you can only move boundaries so much before the framework breaks down and it all become too ambiguous.

Additionally, perhaps you could give student-specific advice for concurrent self-taught studies to be undertaken by the students themselves so they can more finely tune their studies to their own individual situation. For example, maybe you'd advise Steve to pick up a copy of the Persichetti book (if he doesn't have it already), or do some ear training with the Modus Novus by Lars Edlund - and so on and so forth for each student depending on their unique goals.

Just a thought (or two).

Cheers.

[jesshmusic]

With the assignments, I am not so worried about the harmony as I am motivic developement, performability, and form. That is mostly what I was checking. I try to remember how my composition teacher taught me. The good part of his using the harmony, is that it is repeated. To me, that alone is a good thing. If I were to try to teach classical harmony I sure would have my hands full! ;)

I do highly recommend that everyone doing the exercises (and any Theory rookies) go to this site and do all of the exercises until you feel comfortable:

http://www.musictheory.net/


It will help lots.

I hope to push the students here beyond a 250 year old harmonic system. The harp part is convincing them that the word "modern" doesn't mean it's going to sound bad. :D

The few that are posting are coming along nicely. I need to post my solo clarinet piece soon, so they can get some ideas. If any of you veteran composers out there would like to post their compositions in a similar style to one of my assignments, or even do the assignments, that would be very helpful. Just make sure you explain everything you have done and why. I am about to do the second assignment here and post it later tonight as an example.

[jesshmusic]

This is where the skill of motivic development comes in. You have to find ways within the motive using all of the methods listed in the first post to get where you want to go. Remember that the motive can be expanded or used in sequences. It can be inverted or written backwards or both. I am willing to bet you can solve all of your problems within it. Eventually it will become second nature.

Passing tones, suspensions, etc. are things that musicologists use to name non-harmonic notes, but composers rarely think of all of that stuff unless they are writing baroque counterpoint.

The motive can be used for so many things, and the more the motive is thought of, the better the composition. For example, have you tried using the motive as a guide for harmony too?

This is why, for awhile, we should not try to compose classical harmonies. Let yourself experiment. Don't worrry about scales or key. If you don't want it to sound dissonant, don't write dissonant harmony. Modern music doesn't have to have minor seconds. ;) You may be surpised with the results. I already know what I am going to do for the next assignment and it will be an interesting exercise.


I look forward to viewing more of your assignments, everyone.

[Fabio]

This is where the skill of motivic development comes in. You have to find ways ...


I look forward to viewing more of your assignments, everyone.

After round 2 weeks of work travel I'm back and I can't wait to find the time to read all the story: but after first impact, congratulation Jess.

Nice beginning!

[SeanHannifin]

Thank you, Jess, for your time and dedication to doing this! Hopefully I will get the motif assignment done sometime; I'm hurredly trying to finish my entry to the TCM contest. :)

[trentpmcd]

OK, I finally got around to doing the exercise. This is the type of thing I like doing, unfortunately I’m not super happy with the results. Oh well, I might play with it again some time.

So here is a pdf file of my little clarinet solo. (http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/trents-exercise-1.pdf)

And here is an mp3 of it. (http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/clarinet-solo-3-28-2005.mp3)

[jesshmusic]

OK, I finally got around to doing the exercise. This is the type of thing I like doing, unfortunately I’m not super happy with the results. Oh well, I might play with it again some time.

So here is a pdf file of my little clarinet solo. (http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/trents-exercise-1.pdf)

And here is an mp3 of it. (http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/clarinet-solo-3-28-2005.mp3)


The pdf fonts didn't work so I had a bunch of blocks on a staff with hairpins. :eek:

I did listen to your piece, and this is very nice. Good use of the range of the instrument and dynamics.

My only suggestions are that for a solo piece like this we can even explore now some more effects. Try some tempo variation and possibly the clarinets strong ability for speed playing.

Here is my solo clarinet piece I had to compose in college for Composition. It won the KMTA Composition competition. I don't know how to do the long gliss in GPO yet, so that part will sound odd. Maybe it will help you guys on this assignment. Everyone is doing very well and I look forward to hearing more of the first assignment as well as the second. :D

The motive for this piece is the first figure, but it could be even reduced to a simple two note motive of a minor second.

Phase II Score (pdf) (http://www.fupduckonline.com/music/Phase-II.pdf)
Phase II mp3 (http://www.fupduckonline.com/music/PhaseII.mp3)

[Looper]

Hi Jess, I'd love to get your opinion on my clarinet assignment, how's that email address coming along. Thanks again for taking the time to do all this stuff.

Brian

[jesshmusic]

Sorry it took so long, all assignments can be emailed to:

music@fupduckonline.com/

[chet reinhardt]

Jess

Thanks for the very interesting and useful appraisal.

I've been thinking about how to proceed regarding the things that you have outlined. I had tried to come up with faster phrases but did not come up with anything that I liked. Similarly with respect to the upper ranges.So it might take awhile before a come up with something satisfactory. I think the best way to proceed is to split the work into two parts: to work on notation (dynamics and later articulations) with respect to the existing score and to experiment with 16th notes, higher ranges, and an earlier climax separately. That way I won't have to wait to make progess regarding notation and the changes to the score can take whatever time they require.

Your comments about seeing places where the melody might reach a climax but didn't are interesting. When I improvise I often set up the expectation of a conclusion and instead introduce a digression. And then digressions with respect to the digressions... Etc., etc., etc. Your comments regarding where to put the climax have given me a lot of food for thought. I have been thinking about some of my earlier efforts from this new to me point of view and there are a few pieces that I will be particularly interested to see what I think of them at this time.

Thanks again.

I've seldom leaned so much so quickly or had so much fun doing it.

[jesshmusic]

OK, I finally got around to doing the exercise. This is the type of thing I like doing, unfortunately I’m not super happy with the results. Oh well, I might play with it again some time.

So here is a pdf file of my little clarinet solo. (http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/trents-exercise-1.pdf)

And here is an mp3 of it. (http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/clarinet-solo-3-28-2005.mp3)


I was able to open your score at work on the Dell.

I guess my Apple at home didn't have something to read it.

All is good.

[jesshmusic]

@Brian:

Here are the notes for your piece, "Expressivo":

Good piece overall, good use and expansion of the motive.

1... You could use some more articulation marks. Remember that performers are a lot like computers, they will only do for sure what you tell them.

2... Good job exploring the lower range of the instrument, but the upper range may need some more attention. The clarinet has three distinct colors (that GPO captures well): The low, sonorous, dark range that is about middle C down. The middle range, and the upper more piercing range. A lot of contrast can be made by exchanging figures in the different registers. For instance: the figure in bars 34-37 are imitated in bars 38-42 with a different ending. Why not transpose bars 38-42 up an octave? Maybe an accelerando from bar 40 to the last note in bar 42, put a fermata on that note and a grand pause after it?

The little things that add some drama and make a good piece great. Keep it up! :D

[trentpmcd]

I was able to open your score at work on the Dell.

I guess my Apple at home didn't have something to read it.

All is good.
When I saw your first post I was wondering if it was an Apple/PC thing - the pdf maker I have is a free program downloaded from the Internet and most likely uses Windows fonts. I'll have to remember that. Maybe it's time to shell out for Adobe.

I will play with changing tempo and try to work in a few quicker passages.

Thanks for taking all the time to set up these exercises and comment on everyone’s work. This seminar seems to be going very well.

[trentpmcd]

Just finished exercise 2 – the piano solo on 2 themes. A few comments -

First, I based the themes on the clarinet theme – I know that wasn’t necessary, but it helped me write this in a few hours to have a starting point.

This is more tonal and diatonic than I usually write. For one thing, besides your exercise I was playing around with exercises from a harmony book so I found it easiest to stay pretty diatonic.

I might have spent too much time on the themes – this sounds almost more like two short movements than one piece. Maybe I’ll put on a coda with a return to the first theme to tie it all together. And OK, the ending is a bit of a cliché….

I know, I have a terrible time with writing accents, phrase marks, etc. In some ways I feel almost like I need more help with notation than the actual composition.

After finishing this in Overture I exported the midi and recorded in Cubase – I did nothing to smooth it up at all, so it is a bit rough in places.

Here are the files -
pdf (again, my non-standard PC file) - http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/piano-etude-2.pdf

mp3 - http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/piano-etude-2-3-31-2005.mp3

[SeanHannifin]

I'm trying to do the first assignment with the motif, but I just can't get anything to sound good. My mind wants to develop the motif into a melody, and it really doesn't want to keep the intervals the same, though keeping the rhythm similar seems natural. In Beethoven's fifth, didn't he change the intervals?

[jesshmusic]

Sean: That is the challenge of the exercise. Much like writing a fugue, having to keep the intervals the same really flexes the compositional muscles. Don't worry about how the melody sounds. It will all make sense later. :)

[SeanHannifin]

Sean: That is the challenge of the exercise. Much like writing a fugue, having to keep the intervals the same really flexes the compositional muscles. Don't worry about how the melody sounds. It will all make sense later. :)
Argh! :D But I guess if it wasn't a challenge, it wouldn't be very good practice!

[jesshmusic]

You can get good sounding melodies out of the motive. You just can't think in a particular key. Even Beethoven was constantly changing keys.

Try this:

Practice the motive on your keyboard, and practice a few different iterations of it using the techniques discussed in the first post. Once you are comfortable with that, then just improvise. Set GPO to the clarinet and hear the different timbres. Use the mod wheel. Play from the gut instead of the head. That is the usefullness of practicing and playing what you write. :D

Since it is unaccompanied, you don't have to worry about harmony. If you start to feel what you are composing is starting to sound atonal, then repeat the original motive more often or focus on a particular note. This will give the feeling of a tonal center. Don't think of scales or key signatures or you will just stress.

[trentpmcd]

Jess, I don't know if you saw I posted my second exercise piece last night just a few minutes before Sean's post. Because of the way this thread runs I'm sure it easy to miss. If you saw it and just haven't had time to respond ignore this post :)

[jesshmusic]

I have a bunch of assignments I need to comment on, so I have another project for the weekend.

Trent: I played through half of your piano piece last night and I have several suggestions. :D BTW... props on the first note not being part of the harmony, really makes it stand out. Reminded me a lot of Brahms!

[jesshmusic]

One comment I can make now is go easy on the weird time signatures! Remember that for now we still compose for the performer, not MIDI. Instead of 12/16, the piece could just be in 6/8.
Trent, your piano etude is in 6/4, but the tempo is listed as quarter note= xxx.
6/4 is just like 6/8. In 6/4 the dotted half would get the beat. For your piece I would suggest 3/4 time. It will be much easier on the performer.
And one more thing I noticed just from playing through is that in the left hand, bar 14, you have quite a stretch from the F to A. I know some pianist can hit this fairly easily, but not all. BTW...the left hand work in the B section was hard for me, but I am not a great sight reader. I will discuss in much further detail your piece this weekend. May I use it as kind of a study piece for the whole seminar?

[trentpmcd]

Sorry to rush you. I thought you were caught up.

You are right about the time signature - my original thought was in groups of 6 (like the clarinet solo I did in 6/8) but it ended up being closer to groups of 3. I haven't figured out how I can tell Overture to redo all of the measures after I change the time signature - I'm sure it is easy but I've just started playing with it.

I think the stretch from F to A was a mistake - I think I wanted a second inversion and have a C instead of an F. I tried playing everything before I put it down but must have missed this - to speed things up I started with just the roots and changed them for variety and a better (I hope) bass line. And yes, I can only play the left hand part of the second half very slowly ;)

I said I tried to keep the chords diatonic, not triads. I forgot I started with a 9th in the melody... And then there are a few dim 7 chords in the second half...

Go ahead and use it as an example or study piece for the seminar.

[trentpmcd]

I just looked a little more closely at bar 14. I want the f in the bass since I am trying to cadence into F at this point, coming from D through d minor. I also don't want the "a" offset by a quarter because I want the chord accented. The "a" also works because it makes the "g" in the melody (the 9th again) stand out more. So... how about if I use a glissando? That way the "a" is offset slightly to make it more playable while still sounding like a chord. Maybe with "a" pedal to insure the "f" is sustained?

[jesshmusic]

Is there a reason the F can't be an octave up?

[trentpmcd]

Is there a reason the F can't be an octave up?
Yes, stubbornness. Beyond that, raising the F an octave should work. I'm home now (I wasn't feeling well and left work early) and just tried it and it sounds fine.

I've also tried rebarring the wholew thing in 3/4 and can't get it to work. Yet.

[jesshmusic]

Yes, stubbornness. Beyond that, raising the F an octave should work. I'm home now (I wasn't feeling well and left work early) and just tried it and it sounds fine.

I've also tried rebarring the wholew thing in 3/4 and can't get it to work. Yet.


Am I to assume you don't have Finale?

Don't work too hard, cause we might be making some changes. :D (GPO forum really needs the little devil smiley!)

[chet reinhardt]

Scott

With respect to books regarding notation, I haven't had much luck tracking down either Maloof or Gerou and Lusk. Neither the library system, the local Borders, or a rare book search turned them up. The library does have notation books by Evans and by Vogler (I took down the call numbers but neglected to copy the titles) are they usable? Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

[scottnorma]

Scott

With respect to books regarding notation, I haven't had much luck tracking down either Maloof or Gerou and Lusk. Neither the library system, the local Borders, or a rare book search turned them up. The library does have notation books by Evans and by Vogler (I took down the call numbers but neglected to copy the titles) are they usable? Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance.
Hi Chet,

I tried calling the author of the Maloof book, he's an ex-professor of mine, and his old number isn't working (don't even know if he's still with us or not). That was the only chance of me finding a copy because the original publisher was a small Boston firm that was bought up about 10 years ago by whom I don't know.

As for the Gerou and Lusk, it's a handy desk reference that you should be able to find here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0882847309/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/104-4871591-4325546?v=glance&s=books&n=507846&st=*

You should be able to find the Norton book here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393955265/qid%3D1112491496/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-4871591-4325546

And another good one here:

http://www.berkleepress.com/catalog/product?product%5fid=11137

If you want to get into less standardized modernist notation, you could get the Stone book and/or the Read book, but I think one or two of these above should it for you for now since the Maloof book appears to be a no-go.

I've never perused the Evans or the Vogler books, but the Evans looks pretty basic and probably won't go much beyond the aforementioned handy reference, and the only Vogler book I was able to find was a book on how to read music.

Cheers.

[chet reinhardt]

Scott

Thanks for the suggestions. I look forward to checking them out.

By the way, the library had a copy of Barlow and Morgenstern and I've been amusing myself looking at the entries for Mozart's Haydn Quartets and other favorite works.

Thank you kindly.

Chet

[chet reinhardt]

Here is a link to the second version of my first attempt regarding exercise 2.

http://www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/JH_S1_E2.pdf

(thanks again to Sepheritoh for posting it)

This piece is pretty straightforward with respect to harmony and melody. I do use a deceptive cadence at the end since the piece will set the stage for a modal jazz improvisation in D-minor that was the source of the motive. But more unusual are the changes in rhythm. There are five explicit changes in time (6/8, 9/8, 6/4, 4/4, and 6/8) and at least one implicit change. Now there are several ways to express these changes. As a composer I find it easiest to keep the tempo constant and change the time signature and/or the types of notes used (1/4, 1/8, 1/16, whatever). That is what I did in this piece.

But some changes are more difficult to handle in this manner and the question also arises of how can one best convey these changes to a performer since the effect I am after depends on a precise relation between time in the various sections. Another way to handle the change is to use a straightforward set of notes and to change the tempo (say from 1/4 note = 120 to 1/4 note = 180.) So what are the standard alternatives for this sort of thing and which ones are easiest for the performers?

Thanks for any observations and advice.

[chet reinhardt]

Jess

In light of your encouragement to explore non-tonal melodies and the conventional melodies and harmonies in my first exercise 2 effort I wanted to mention a less conventional exploration that is developing in an interesting (to me anyway) manner but doing so slowly.

I am developing the chromatically augmented theme from my first exercise 1 piece (The Copper Village Fluctuations) and although it isn't ready to be posted I am liking the result. But the only thing that I find at all palatable for harmony are thirds or fifths that move in unison with the melody line and I am not all that fond of that. I know you've said that we shouldn't worry about harmonizing such things and so I won't. But although I am not worrying I guess I am wondering about the question.

So this is just a note to let you know I am taking your suggestions to explore non-modal melodies seriously and am making some progress.

Regards and thanks for creating this wonderful opportunity for us.

[jesshmusic]

Here is a link to the second version of my first attempt regarding exercise 2.

http://www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/JH_S1_E2.pdf

(thanks again to Sepheritoh for posting it)

This piece is pretty straightforward with respect to harmony and melody. I do use a deceptive cadence at the end since the piece will set the stage for a modal jazz improvisation in D-minor that was the source of the motive. But more unusual are the changes in rhythm. There are five explicit changes in time (6/8, 9/8, 6/4, 4/4, and 6/8) and at least one implicit change. Now there are several ways to express these changes. As a composer I find it easiest to keep the tempo constant and change the time signature and/or the types of notes used (1/4, 1/8, 1/16, whatever). That is what I did in this piece.

But some changes are more difficult to handle in this manner and the question also arises of how can one best convey these changes to a performer since the effect I am after depends on a precise relation between time in the various sections. Another way to handle the change is to use a straightforward set of notes and to change the tempo (say from 1/4 note = 120 to 1/4 note = 180.) So what are the standard alternatives for this sort of thing and which ones are easiest for the performers?

Thanks for any observations and advice.

Let's talk about the time signatures here. ;)

Here are the technical terms for the time signatures:

Simple duple: 2/4, 2/2, 2/8, etc. All are the same, just different notes. Beethoven composed the fast sections of the Pathetique Sonata in 2/2 so it wouldn't be mucked up by a bunch of sixteenths.

Simple triple: 3/4, 3/2, 3/8, etc: Three beats per measure divided into 2 parts each (or four, or eight)

Simple Quadruple: 4/4, 4/2, 4/8, etc: The only reason this time signature exists is to reduce clutter by a bunch of barlines. It has the exact same division as simple duple.

Compound Duple: 6/8, 6/4, 6/2, etc: Two beats per measure divided into 3 parts each. This is often taught incorrectly to young musicians. This never, never, never, never gets 6 beats per measure. This very important.

Compound Triple: 9/8, 9/4, 9/2, etc: Three beats per measure divided into 3 parts each. Once again, never 9 beats per measure.

Compound Quadruple: 12/8, 12/4, 12/2, 12/16, etc: Same deal as simple quadruple. It is just two bars of compound duple sans a bar line. Now regarding Chet's 12/16 bars, better to just make those 6/8. But, double the note values, because 12/16 is the same as 12/8, not 6/8. 12/16 has 4 beats, 6/8 has two.

Mixed meters:
5/4, 5/8, 5/2: This one goes both ways. Either 5 beats per measure, or two beats per measure divided by either 2+3 or 3+2
7/4, 7/8, 7/2: These usually have 3 beats per bar in one of the following configurations: 2+2+3, 2+3+2, 3+2+2. Rarely are there 7 beats per measure. Better to just write 3/4 for a bar and 4/4 the next.


Now in Chet's piece, he uses meter changes to imply tempo change. This will likely confuse a performer. The best way is to add numerical tempo changes instead. Keep all of the time signatures similar, i.e. 12/8, 6/8, 4/4 (all are divided into eighth notes)
If a composer is going from simple to compound and they want the eighth notes to have the same value they would put in parenthesis above the first bar of the time change a small eighth note equals another small eighth note.


Chet: your tempo marking at the beginning says sixteenth note = 560. I would cry if I saw that in a piece I had to learn. Especially since the sixteenth doesn't get the beat in 12/16, it is the division of the beat. Divide the tempo by 3 and make the tempo marking dotted eighth = 186. That is really, really fast and your tempo description says "Moderato" which is generally in the area of 96-112. Make sure to give bpm markings that are on a metronome, because a lot of performers like to practice with a pendulum metronome and it only has the traditional markings.


Now for the rest of the piece:

1. For the most part the piano only has one note per hand. Try to give some chords or harmony in the right hand.
2. The first 9/8 section tends to be a little repetitive. Try to mix up the rhythm a bit, but nothing too out of the ordinary.
3. The 9/8 section at the end should be 6/8, as indicated by the phrasing you composed.
4. The piece seems to end on the IV chord. Your harmonies up to that point create the key of C quite clearly and ending on the four chord seems a little rough on the ear, unless more is to be composed. :)
5. The 4/4 section can probably be in 6/8 or 12/8. That way triplets don't have to be written. The quarters would be dotted quarter notes. There are no standard eighth notes, so no real reason to write in a simple meter. If you wanted two eights to a beat in compound meter, you just make them dotted eighths.
6. Definately change that 12/16 section. It will definately give the performer a headache. ;)
7. Don't forget dynamics, articulations, slurs (known by pianists as phrase marks).


Good effort. I like the ideas you had. One of the advantages of college training (although it didn't seem like an advantage at the time) were the rhythm reading classes. We had to take them for two years.

I am keeping an eye on the time sig thread, but I thought it better to most my comments on the seminar piece here.

[chet reinhardt]

Jess

Thanks for the interesting, useful, and encouraging analysis.

You've given me a lot of good information to digest and your brief history of time is almost axiomatic in its elegance.

In a bit I will be posting a revised version of exercise 2 that matches the description earlier in this thread. I inadvertantly sent Sepheritoh an earlier version. I had fixed the 12/16 to 6/8 issue and there are various changes that I trust are improvements but it is not radically different. I' ve changed the ending but I still end with an open cadence because I am experimenting with using the piece to introduce the jazz improvisation from which I took the motive. If anything the feeling of incompleteness and tension at the end has been intensified (at least that is my intention). The release comes with the advent of The Enlightened Gypsy.

Regarding some of the other notation issues, I compose in Sonar and then export midi which I then import into Overture for finishing. The bpm with respect to an 1/8 note was Overture's choice based on the settings in the midi-file. So I guess I'll be digging into whether or not those things are set accurately and sensibly rather than assuming that Overture's decisions necessarily reflect what I heard in Sonar.

Thanks again. You really have a gift for teaching: encouraging, identifying areas for improvement, and providing information that is appropriate to the level of the student (even one with a strange mixture of knowledge and ignorance such as myself).

Chet

[dermod]

Still trying to climb aboard this course. Having no web page I e-mailed my motif exercise but suspect this has ended up in a black hole. I have now established a page on the miscrosoft users page which I have christened tradfiddler. Hopefully this link will get connect to a pdf with the exercise on it. On the left of the page is a tab for GPO academy exercise which will link to general midi soundfile of the same thing. So here goes, countown and fingers crossed for lift off. http://uk.msnusers.com/tradfiddle/documents.msnw

[jesshmusic]

@dermod: Sorry I haven't posted for your exercise yet. I had to wait to view it at work, because the pdf did not work on my Mac at home. I think it's a font issue. I will post a response today.

[jesshmusic]

Now to start the task of responding to the assignments I am behind on. :D

I do hope all students are reading the critiques for everyone else's works as well. From looking at the assignments it seems so.

Let's do a couple now:

SouthportJim: Good job. Here are your long awaited comments;
1. If I were at home I would post your piece, because you did something in bar 7 and other places that not a lot think to do. The motive having the intervals of a second up and a third down, you composed the interval of a ninth and sixth. These are the inversions of the individual intervals. Excellent.

2. You guys have been way too nice to these clarinettists. The highest note in your piece is B5 in bars 6 and 8. The clarinet can go much higher, and the sound gets much more intense. With the clarinet it is very easy to achieve the piece's climax. Your piece climaxes at bar 17 (although the figure should be up maybe an octave if still in clarinet range). This is almost exactly half way through the piece. The "golden mean" would fall around bar 21... in that area, it doesn't have to fall right on it.

3. On the other hand, SouthpotJim is not that nice to the clarinettist. There are no places for the clarinettist to take a breath between bar 16 and the end. Ouch. I can see places where a breath mark could be placed, but don't forget that silence is part of music. Few people understand that was the point John Cage made ever so eloquently with 4:33'.

4. You forgot your tempo marking. (D'oh!)
5. More articulations please. :) You think the computer plays it boring if there are none, you should see a real person.
6. Your piece is an excellent candidate for an unmetered piece. If anything, I would at least add, for example, an accel. at bar 11 and 12. (Don't forget the a tempo after). The dotted eighth/sixteenth figures could use some tempo veriation also. A good solution is to hide the barlines and put a tempo marking like quarter note equals 120 and the phrase "Freely". Or some other similar thing.

OK. good. I will start a new post for the next student.

[jesshmusic]

Dermod: Good job. Here are the comments:

1. Articulations, slurs, and dynamics should be added.
2. Good use of range.
3. Here is the main comment. The motive is introduced in the first bar and inverted retrograde in the second. In the third it is expanded throughout the bar and so on. Good. Now it doesn't seem to occur very often in bars 8 - 17. It is there, but may not be obvious enough, although we never want it too obvious unless we are writing the next Beethoven's Fifth. Here are some suggestions on ways to use the motive without changing too much.

- Start the runs with the motive intervals. Not the exact notes, but the same intervals between. Each of your bars start off with a good rhythm for the motive, so that could be unchanged. Then the runs after the motive are just augmentation of the motive. In bar 12, you almost do the motive, but there are to skips of a third instead of on skip of a second.
- In bar 13, keep the half notes with big skips, but instead of the classical cadence, use the motive. The first bar is okay. E to F# is the trnsposition of the motive. Even though it is the skip of a seventh, that is the same interval inverted. Instead of going to G, go down to the D. That ends the first instance of the motive. Use the same D you just wrote as the beginning of the next instance and go to E and octave down, then up to G#. Same place you left off at the end of bar 15, but this time following the motive. You don't have to do exactly what I said, but something similar.


--Remember people, the motive is the germ which infects the entire piece of music. As composers we tend to get tired of an idea much sooner than the listener.--

- One more motive note. The last two bars contain no motive. The C major scale seems a little too cliche in this type of piece. Try to incorporate the motive in the end. I feel that may be almost as important as having it at the beginning. The motive at the end is sometimes truncated.


Everyone is doing well. Keep an eye out for separate threads regarding composition issues. Study scores. Anyone still working on the clarinet piece, make sure to look what I did with my solo clarinet piece as an example. It is posted somewhere in this thread and in the Demos section.

Keep them coming, I am caught up right now, but I bet it won;t last.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[dermod]

Many thanks for those valuable comments. In the middle bars I used the implied emphasis on the third beat of the motif as the continuity factor. I will make changes as advised but not resubmit. Partly because you must be snowed under, but mainly because I need to catch up with exercise two, AABB.
Dermod

[jesshmusic]

Many thanks for those valuable comments. In the middle bars I used the implied emphasis on the third beat of the motif as the continuity factor. I will make changes as advised but not resubmit. Partly because you must be snowed under, but mainly because I need to catch up with exercise two, AABB.
Dermod


Feel free to resubmit if you want, because I am caught up now. I also wouldn't want you to get stuck. :)

[southportJim]

SouthportJim: Good job. Here are your long awaited comments;

Jess,

Thanks for the comments. Good point on leaving openings for breath...GPO never needs to breathe, and neither does my guitar or bass, so I wasn't even thinking that direction (maybe Gary can add more realism in this regard to the next upgrade of GPO...sound begins to waver and finally ceases on long passages as the virtual wind player passes out from lack of oxygen). ;-)

I will re-write based on your critique and see how it sounds. Do you want us to re-post the revised clarinet piece, or should we just go ahead on to Assignment 2?

thanks,
jim

[jesshmusic]

I will re-write based on your critique and see how it sounds. Do you want us to re-post the revised clarinet piece, or should we just go ahead on to Assignment 2?



You may re-post if you would like.

[chet reinhardt]

Jess

Here is the link to the latest version of exercise 2 (E2a).

<http://www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/JH_S1_E2a.pdf>

(thanks to sepheritoh for his assistance)

E2a is mostly similar to E2 and was the version I had intended to post earlier. It matches the earlier description (which E2 does not). It was created prior to your comments and so does not reflect any changes due to them (except for magically and inadvertantly anticipating some of the time signature suggestions). I think the end is somewhat more interesting and I've tried to make it abrupt and excruciatingly open to set the stage for (as I said in my previous post) the modal jazz improvisation that was the source of the motive.

More improvements to follow.

Chet

[scottnorma]

*************************
NOTE: This post was originally from the "difficult meters" thread, but since part of the discussion here is on that very same subject, I'll go ahead and repost it:
*************************

If it's been said, I'd like to second the idea that breaking up odd meters into the small meaasures is NOT always the way to go.

Much of the signature has to do with the length of the musical phrase or meta-phrase.

I'd much rather read a single 7/8 or 10/8 bar with stems and phrase marking helping me to define the sub groups within the bar.

It can be like a speed bump in the road to have to digest written out contiunous time signtures,

Whereas the eye (I guess my eye in this case) seems to digest bigger chunks of music at a time if phrase markings and good stem-choice are implemented instead.

The rule of thumb being: use your eye to see what's easiest to take in while steadily sweeping your eyes across the measures.
Agreed. This is why I spoke earlier about the fact that the overall context is what ultimately informs your final decision as to which way you're going to notate these types of situations. Handling an *instance* of a certain time signature is a different thing than handling an ongoing string employing that same time signature.

Proper beaming, when the note values allow it, can do much to aid the player in the 5/8, 7/8, 9/8, etc., types of situations (including beaming over the rests), and rhythmic grouping symbols can further help when your divisions are either inconsistent and/or do not correspond to the usual breakdown.

And when you have the quarter as your denominator, using dotted barlines and/or rhythmic grouping brackets (in addition to proper beaming when the note values allow it) can be all that is needed to visually dilineate the breakdown. There's no reason to divide a long string of 7/4 bars into a string of twice as many bars where there is a meter change on *every single bar* just to make it 3/4 + 4/4. This greatly impedes the linear-visual-temporal flow, and unnecessarily fussy notation is never the best solution.

I think not enough people are availing themselves of the various solutions that have been devised to overcome these potential problems as regards the immediacy of the written part being read in realtime by the performer.

[jesshmusic]

Jess

Here is the link to the latest version of exercise 2 (E2a).

<http://www.dog-on-blues.co.za/gpo/JH_S1_E2a.pdf>

(thanks to sepheritoh for his assistance)

E2a is mostly similar to E2 and was the version I had intended to post earlier. It matches the earlier description (which E2 does not). It was created prior to your comments and so does not reflect any changes due to them (except for magically and inadvertantly anticipating some of the time signature suggestions). I think the end is somewhat more interesting and I've tried to make it abrupt and excruciatingly open to set the stage for (as I said in my previous post) the modal jazz improvisation that was the source of the motive.

More improvements to follow.

Chet


Make sure to change the tempo marking at the beginning because in 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, or any of the compound meters the eighth note never gets the beat. Always the dotted quarter. This is a very hard fast rule. If you intend the eighths to get the beat you have another time change coming. But I am certain you would not write a piece tempo 280. Metronome doesn't even go close to that high. The performer would feel the piece with dotted quarter being the beat anyway. your tempo marking should be dotted quarter = 92.

It is so, so important to know how the compound meters work because so many schools now teach it wrong. They teach that 6/8 gets six beats per measure and the eighth note gets the beat. This is never true.


Good job on your improvements, I do have a note, though. Is the form A A B B? It seems the A theme returns toward the end. Composing using this particular form is important to the lesson. It can actually be done using repeated sections. English and French Suites used this form, along with the much used Minuet and March forms. Let's see if you can rearrange your music to conform to this. We will be doing more complex forms in later lessons and it will be helpful to stick to this form, even though it can be boring.

[jesshmusic]

TO ALL STUDENTS HERE: Make sure to stick to the binary (AABB) form for Assignment 2. If it is possible in the notation software please mark each section with an A or B. That way I can see quickly where everthing lines up.


Keep up the good work, all.

[scottnorma]

Make sure to change the tempo marking at the beginning because in 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, or any of the compound meters the eighth note never gets the beat. Always the dotted quarter. This is a very hard fast rule.
While it's true that in most middle-of-the-road situations of this type where you have the 8th note as denominator in a compound meter, the dotted-quarter rather than the 8th gets the beat, it's not always true. Take a piece such as "Les Offrandes Oubliees" by Oliver Messiaen. His solution is the best one as weighed against the various other notation options.

In amongst bars of 10/8, 11/8, 7/8, and 8/8, you also have bars of 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8, and the metronome marking is a snail's pace, 8th = 44 bpm. There are two reasons you wouldn't use a dotted-quarter as your beat in this situation. Firstly, you'd have a dotted-quarter = 14 or 15 beats per measure. That's way off the Maezel scale, and for good reason. Secondly, the rhythmic groupings throughout are not in any sort of consistent grouping of three, even in the 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8 bars.

Now, he could've changed the denominator to quarters and doubled the note values, but this would've robbed him of the ability to use beaming to his advantage - something that is necessary for this particular piece - and writing bars of 10/4, 11/4, and the like is an issue in and of itself. And breaking these bars into two, or even three, discrete segments is not an option because the phrasing of the piece largely occurs bar for bar. In other words, the 10/8 bar is notated as such, because it is also a 10/8 phrase, and likewise with all of the other meters he employs.

The overall context of the music and competing notation considerations is the ultimate arbiter of what can and should be done in any given piece.

[chet reinhardt]

Jess

I've yet to complete any modifications to my exercise two effort (I've been working on the non-tonal melody). So with respect to your question of whether or not it is AABB I have to discuss the structure in terms of E2a.

The form of E2a is Introduction, A, truncated-A, short bridge, B, B, Conclusion. Except for the slight truncation the 2nd A repeats the 1st A exactly. As to the 2nd B it is an exact repeat of the 1st A.

The first A section starts at measure 14 with the change to 9/8. The second A section starts at measure 25. The bridge starts at measure 36 with the change to 6/8. (What would be the last measure of the 2nd A section is given to the bridge.) The first B section starts at measure 44 with the change to 4/4. The conclusion starts at measure 70 with the change to 6/8. It may be that the introduction, bridge, and conclusion are not sufficiently distinct from A and B, that they are too elaborate, or that A and B are too (similar in spite of the difference in key and time signature) for the AABB structure to be very obvious. I am considering possible changes that would highlight the structure.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions. This is great fun and wonderfully educational. Thanks for making it possible.

Chet

[chet reinhardt]

In my previous post that should of course be that the 2nd B exactly repeats the 1st B.

[jesshmusic]

While it's true that in most middle-of-the-road situations of this type where you have the 8th note as denominator in a compound meter, the dotted-quarter rather than the 8th gets the beat, it's not always true. Take a piece such as "Les Offrandes Oubliees" by Oliver Messiaen. His solution is the best one as weighed against the various other notation options.

In amongst bars of 10/8, 11/8, 7/8, and 8/8, you also have bars of 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8, and the metronome marking is a snail's pace, 8th = 44 bpm. There are two reasons you wouldn't use a dotted-quarter as your beat in this situation. Firstly, you'd have a dotted-quarter = 14 or 15 beats per measure. That's way off the Maezel scale, and for good reason. Secondly, the rhythmic groupings throughout are not in any sort of consistent grouping of three, even in the 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8 bars.

Now, he could've changed the denominator to quarters and doubled the note values, but this would've robbed him of the ability to use beaming to his advantage - something that is necessary for this particular piece - and writing bars of 10/4, 11/4, and the like is an issue in and of itself. And breaking these bars into two, or even three, discrete segments is not an option because the phrasing of the piece largely occurs bar for bar. In other words, the 10/8 bar is notated as such, because it is also a 10/8 phrase, and likewise with all of the other meters he employs.

The overall context of the music and competing notation considerations is the ultimate arbiter of what can and should be done in any given piece.


I never agreed with Messiaen on this. Even then, I think it is unwise to get that complex this early in the Seminar. I don't have a problem with the eighth note getting the beat, just not in compound meters except 6/16, 9/16, etc. in which the dotted eighth gets the beat.
There are some teachers at the middle school and high school level that teach that the top number of the time signature is the number of beats and the bottom is what note gets the beat and this is very bad. It is very hard to fight this misconception. Which is why I neglected to even mention Messiaen. I will also contend that he was very experimental with this sort of thing, and usually composed overly complex rhythms. But that is just my opinion.

If this method is to be followed specific instructions must be given at the beginning of the piece, because performers will see 6/8 and expect something different than the composer.

So for the time being, I want to keep it simple here on my Composition Seminar, but thanks for reminding me of Messiaen.
:)

[scottnorma]

Jess,

You turned a general principal into a "hard and fast rule" and I pointed out the error - simple enough I would think. As I have already explained, Messiaen's solution *is* in fact the best one, whether or not you want to admit it, and there is not a problem in the world with the 8th note getting the beat in these types of situations - yes, even in the compund meters. I gave detailed explanations and offered not one, but several very good reasons why it had to be done the way it was done.

You say you disagree with Messiaen on this. I won't talk about how absurd this sounds, but what I will talk about was the fact that you offered up no rebuttal for his solution. Would you have him change the beat from 8th to dotted-quarter on every single discrete bar of 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8 that would occur in the middle of all sorts of other mixed meters? Should he have given the tempo as dotted-quarter = 15 bpm? That's one beat every 4 seconds! Besides, the grouping of 3 usually associated with the compound meters is not in play here - they're all irregular groupings. Should he have just left out the compound meters altogether? Should he have changed the beat to quarters and just doubled all of the notes values - thereby giving up the advantage of the necessary beaming and the fact that the piece "sits" quite well using the rhythms as notated? Would bars of 10/4, 11/4, etc., have been better for the music or for the performer? And to make the newly re-notated time signatures more manageable, should the bar by bar phrases have been broken up into two or three smaller segments with intervening meter changes, thereby impeding the linear-visual-temporal flow? If so, why? Just to meet some arbitrary rule about 8ths not ever getting the beat even in compund meters? Or maybe he just should not have written this beautiful piece at all, at least until he might have consulted with you about the proper notation. It works best the way it was written and should not have been notated any other way, and I can guarantee that the performers do not trip over this not uncommon situation.

Furthermore, it's not about Messiaen, that was just an example, and it is not unique in the standard repertory. But I know, I know, you'd disagree with Stranvinsky on this, and you'd disagree with Ravel on this, and you'd disagree with Vaughn-Williams on this, and you'd disgree with Prokofiev on this, and and on and on and on until everyone said, "You're right!"

You want to keep it simple, well, fine. But that's still no excuse for misinformation. Try, "most of the time...", or "much of the time...", or "in these types of situations it is normally done thusly...", but don't manufacture arbitrary and dogmatic hard and fast rules where none exist.

Cheers.

[jesshmusic]

@Scottnorma: I would appreciate in the future you could use the Private Message function instead of attempting to discredit me on my Seminar thread.

I am not going to have debates on this thread. If you want to have a public debate on it, you can start another thread. There are already enough posts for me to look through. I am sorry if this comes off as course.

[scottnorma]

@Scottnorma: I would appreciate in the future you could use the Private Message function instead of attempting to discredit me on my Seminar thread.

I am not going to have debates on this thread. If you want to have a public debate on it, you can start another thread. There are already enough posts for me to look through. I am sorry if this comes off as course.
Jess, you're being far too sensitive about this I believe. I'm not trying to discredit you. This isn't even about you (or is it?).

Furthermore, if you require the luxury of a closed forum, I would encourage you to go make one somewhere. Otherwise, what you need to remember is that this is a public forum and you don't get to close it off from others for your own use, and if I see you promulgate error, there's a good chance I'll be pointing it out.

If you have a problem with this, then I would suggest that you take it up with the chief NSS administrator, "Papa Chalk".

Cheers,

Scott

[jesshmusic]

I am about to start the Composition Seminar - Part 2 because this thread is just about too full. :D

I will post the first two assignments again in the new thread, but I need to know a couple things first.

1.... Sean and Joseph, are you guys doing assignment 1? I know you had both expressed interest.

2.... Is there anyone who have had assignments completed and not examined by me?



I will continue to take new people who want to start on Assignment 1 and as many updates as you guys want until you are happy with the assignment, or i run out of stuff to say (not likey!;))

Good work so far guys. This thread will stay open a few more days until Assignment 3 is ready.

For those who need them, here is assignments 1 & 2:

ASSIGNMENT 1
What we want to work on here is the basic manipulation of the motive and how important it is to everything that is composed. The best example of the use of motive is also the easiest to pick out the motive on listening. Beethoven composed his 5th Symphony based on the very famous four note motive.

Motive consists of two elements:

1. Actual notes
2. Rhythm

The first element can be manipulated using the following methods:

1. Transposition: This is the most used. Note the opening bars of Beethoven's 5th. The first time the motive is played it is G G G Eb. Then this main motive is transposed in the next figure to F F F D.
2. Inversion: This is, simply stated, flipping the tones upside down. A note in the motive is used as a pivot and the others move around it. It is best to see it done to understand it better. There is a sample in the attached pdf.
3. Retrograde: The motive is written backwards.
4. Augmentation: The motive is extended at the end with extra notes.
5. Retardation: Some of the motive notes are left out. Makes the motive shorter.

The second element can also be used in very interesting ways. Different notes applied to the same motive rhythm are allowable.

Study the brief pdf file showing the ways that the motive can be manipulated carefully. Compose a short piece for solo, unaccompanied clarinet using this motive. Do not think about harmony or scales yet. Keep the intervals in tact, so there should not be any minor seconds or thirds during the motive, but inbetween instances of the motive any interval can be done.

Do not concern yourselves with form or chords yet. Consider this a free form piece.


This is a simple exercise meant to teach motivic development. Good luck and post your assignments here when completed. You should also leave any comments or questions here.

ASSIGNMENT:
http://www.fupduckonline.com/Comp-seminar/CompositionSeminar1.pdf


ASSIGNMENT 2

For those who have completed the first assignment, I am going to go ahead and post the second assignment. If you have completed the first assignment, but not submitted, it is okay to go ahead with the second assignment, just submit both assignments when you are ready. I do ask that everyone complete the first assignment before starting the second.


Instrumentation: Solo Piano
Form: A A B B .... This is the simplest multi theme form in music. For this assignment each theme need only be eight bars or so with repeats (16 bars total for each theme). In classical harmony the first theme would be in the key of the piece, the second theme would start on the dominant (V chord) of the home key. In a minor key it would be the relative major. i.e. A piece with the "A" theme in G Major would start in D7 for theme "B". A piece in G minor would modulate to Bb major for the second theme. If you decide to write non-traditional harmony, modulation of some kind is still needed, but the composer is free to move the tonal center however he or she pleases. Hindemith liked to move it up one whole step, for example.
Motive: Composer's discretion. Just make sure that Theme A and B are based on the same motive.

[scottnorma]

I never agreed with Messiaen on this...
Then what should he have otherwise done?

[dermod]

Jess

Attached should be a link to my second exercise (AABB form) consisting of a pdf and midi-file. The motif is contained in the bass clef line. http://groups.msn.com/tradfiddle/documents.msnw?fc_a=0&fc_p=

Dermod

[jesshmusic]

The link lead to a password login.

[dermod]

Here's the link I used last time which is slightly different. http://uk.msnusers.com/tradfiddle/documents.msnw?&pps=k. I will e-mail as well. Sorry about the difficulty. Running a webpage is a new one for me.

[trentpmcd]

I did a few changes to the clarinet solo for the first assignment. I didn't do any tempo changes as suggested (still may come). I put in a few short fast runs more as grace notes. A few other minor changes. I like it much better… Well, a little better…

mp3 file (http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/clarinet-solo-4-12-2005.mp3)
pdf file (http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/clarinet-solo-2.pdf)
(remember that this is weird pdf format that may not be readable on a mac.)

[jesshmusic]

I now have some assignments to check. I will do it at work hopefully this week. :)

[DrChek]

Hi everyone. I'm a little late, but here are my initial attempts at assignments 1 and 2.

Assignment 1
PDF (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign1.pdf)
MP3 (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign1.mp3)

Assignment 2
PDF (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign2.pdf)
MP3 (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign2.mp3)

These are short and simple. I've tried to focus on just the task at hand, and I wanted to turn in something soon so I could catch up with everyone else.

Looking forward to some instructive criticism.

Steven

[jesshmusic]

DrChek: I will also look at your assignments. Thanks for participating. :)

To Everyone: I am also starting the long process of working on my portfolio for applying for a Masters Degree. I have to come up with some more experimental (Ligeti, Davidovsky) type stuff, but I will not neglect you all. It just may take a little longer to get everything critiqued. Thanks for your patience. :D

[jesshmusic]

Hi everyone. I'm a little late, but here are my initial attempts at assignments 1 and 2.

Assignment 1
PDF (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign1.pdf)
MP3 (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign1.mp3)

Assignment 2
PDF (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign2.pdf)
MP3 (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign2.mp3)

These are short and simple. I've tried to focus on just the task at hand, and I wanted to turn in something soon so I could catch up with everyone else.

Looking forward to some instructive criticism.

Steven


I can't get the PDFs to load here at work. At home I have a Mac that may not work with them either. What notation software are you using?

[DrChek]

I can't get the PDFs to load here at work. At home I have a Mac that may not work with them either. What notation software are you using?

I used Finale and a freeware PDF writer. I'll check into it tonight.

Until then, here are my assignments in JPEG format:
Assignment 1 (JPEG) (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign1.jpg)
Assignment 2 (JPEG) (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign2.jpg)

Sorry for the problems.

Edit: I was able to view my PDFs on my OS X Mac at work with Acrobat Reader.

[jesshmusic]

You can actually post the Finale files. That is my preferred file type. I know I can open Finale files. :D

[jesshmusic]

DrChek: Here are my comments for assignment #1:

1....You need a tempo marking in the beginning.
2....Bar 3, second note: Instead of writing a Db, it would be better to write a C# because the interval of a major second is easier to sight read than the interval of a diminished 3rd.
3....The same goes for the last note in bar 17. That should be an Eb instead of a D#.
4....Bar 22, fourth note: The tied note does not need the flat sign. Finale does this to me sometimes.

5...Dynamics and articulations are good. :)
6...You keep the entire piece pretty much on the staff. You should try to explore the upper and lower ranges of the clarinet more.

Overall good job. I will check your assignment two soon.

[DrChek]

1....You need a tempo marking in the beginning.

Do you mean a definite tempo mark (quarter = bpm) because I figured a tempo term like Moderato would suffice?



2....Bar 3, second note: Instead of writing a Db, it would be better to write a C# because the interval of a major second is easier to sight read than the interval of a diminished 3rd.
3....The same goes for the last note in bar 17. That should be an Eb instead of a D#.
4....Bar 22, fourth note: The tied note does not need the flat sign. Finale does this to me sometimes.

Doh! Forgot to proofread Finale's accidentals to check for more logical enharmonic spellings. I'll remember to do this in the future.



5...Dynamics and articulations are good. :)
Not sure if you meant that my use of D&A's was good, or that it would be good to use more D&A's



6...You keep the entire piece pretty much on the staff. You should try to explore the upper and lower ranges of the clarinet more.
Good point.



Overall good job. I will check your assignment two soon.
Already some good pointers for me to look out for. Thanks for taking the time to help educate some of us aspiring composers.

DrChek

[jesshmusic]

For modern music, I always suggest to be as detailed as possible. That way the performer will give you exactly what you want. Not only would I put a specific meter and a description of the mood of the piece, I would also change tempo often throughout an unacommpanied solo so it doesn't become stagnant.

Dynamics and articulation were fine for this length of piece.

Good show. I will check the other piece soon. :)

[jesshmusic]

TO ALL STUDENTS: I am about to take Trent's Piano Etude for Assignment 2 and use it as an example of several things that have been discussed here. It is a good piece now, but sitting at the piano gave me some ideas and it is a good piece to illustrate several things. Trent has been kind enough to let me do this and I think it will be very educational.

One thing... if everyone could go and download Finale Notepad, it would solve a lot of problems with me viewing your exercises. Then I can open your exercises in Finale, add comments in the file, and return them to you. It can be downloaded here:

http://www.finalemusic.com/notepad/index.asp

[jesshmusic]

Here are the comments (FINALLY) for Trent's Piano Etude. I also have a score I created a re-write of Trent's piece to illustrate a different approach, but I cannot post it until I get home and convert it to PDF.

Comments on Trent's piece as it is written originally:

1. Good piece, some of the progressions are very, cool.
2. You already know this but, 6/4 is not the time sig you want because that is almost always (but not all the time) Compound Duple meter. Two beats per measure, each beat divided into three. Since you have quarter=116 as your tempo it is clear the pice should be in 3/4.
3. Except for the parts you specifically want a different dynamic for the left and right hand, the dynamic for the whole piano should be written between the staves. Never put dynamics or hairpins above the top stave. I am wondering if Overture does this. It is bad! ;)
4. In the left hand the part could be written without the tie. Just write "Ped. Throughout" under the bass clef so the pianist knows to use the pedal. That will create the same effect in the left hand.
5. In bar 4, the last figure is notated incorrectly. The triplets should be beamed together and the eighth note at the end separate with a flag. BTW, this is a very odd rhythm. ;)
6. Bar 5, why change the rhythm in the bass part? It seems to interupt the flow of the piece.
7. Phrase marks are needed, the piece doesn't seem to "breathe". It ishard to tell when one phrase begins and another ends.
8. Bar 7 and 11... Marvelous choice of key change.
9. Bar 11, on the flip side... why not follow the same harmonic progression as bar 1 and 7, Going from the I chord to the V chord in first inversion?
10. Bar 16... the C7 chord is the V of IV... meaning a key change is coming, but instead you stay in C. It is a little confusing to the ear in a common practice harmony piece. Should probably be G7 there.
11. Bar 17, first ending: The 2/4 bar is the only time signature change in the entire piece. If the entire piece is converted to 3/4 there will be just one beat extra to make that bar 3/4.
12. Avoid fff, ffff, ppp, pppp. The translation of fortissimo (ff) is "as loud as possible" so how can one be louder than that? Of course, in full orchestra scores the need will arise because some instruments can play louder than others and vice versa. In that case it should be known that the piano goes no louder than ff... which is really banging. When I see ff I really lay into the keys. When I see fff I close the lid and go outside to smoke a cigarette. :D
13. Theme B. You actually changed to the key of G. I got this a lot which makes me think I may not have explained the B theme in classical (Mozart era) being in the dominant key region very well. The key does not change, just start the harmony on the V chord and work around that. Listen to Mozart's Sonata in C. The second theme starts on the V7.
14. I know I told you this somewhere, but the second theme is harder than the first by quite a bit. It almost sounds like a different piece. (and it could be a different piece!) Perhaps write a more similar bass rhythm to the first theme. A good idea may be three quarter notes with pedal like the second half of bar 16. The right hand could even stay the same.
15. Same deal with phrase marks in the second theme.
16. The difference between 116 BPM and 120 BPM is barely perceptible. Perhaps just write "Slightly Faster" at the beginning of the second theme section and let the pianist decide what to do. I know I have said to reign in the performer, but most will not go nuts when they see that phrase. You could even put the quarter = 120 in parenthesis to give them an idea of how much to increase tempo.
17. You end the piece on a big fat G major chord. I know this is because you actually changed keys. I will have to listen again to see if the ear is well into the key of G by then. (I couldn't sight read theme B)
18. No where in the entire piece does the right hand play more than one note at a time. We pianists like playing chords every once in a while. When you see my example mposted later tonight, you'll see an example of what could be done.
19. Beethoven never wrote Metronomic markings, just words like Grave, Allegro, etc. He believed that the performer would know the right tempo by playing it. I personally think this is a bad idea with modern music, because the composer may be on a way different page than the performer. But, that being said, I do feel your piece should be more in the 96 BPM range. It had a nice feel there. Not a criticism, just a humble opinion. :D

Have I commented enough yet? I really liked the extraordinary potential of this piece. I think you should definately keep working on it. It has some really nice parts that were particularly enjoyable to me as a pianist to play. That increases its odds of a performance. I think the most important points are continuity in the bass line and phrasing.

I know you must be itching to do assignment 3, but don't neglect this one. :cool:


I am now tired from typing. Great start, sorry for the delay in checking it, and don't forget the sample re-write I will be posting tonight. :D

[DrChek]

Hopefully this will make things easier on you.

Assignment 2 (Finale Format) (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assgn2.MUS)

[jesshmusic]

Hopefully this will make things easier on you.

Assignment 2 (Finale Format) (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assign2.mus)


Wahoo! I will check it out when I get home...

[jackull]

Are you still taking late comer? Just got my GPO & registered yesterday...

[jesshmusic]

Jump on in! I would be glad to take on more students. :cool:

[jesshmusic]

OK everyone, here is what I did with Trent's piano Etude (again thanks for letting me diddle with it!).

I pretty much took Theme A and converted it to the whole piece. I simplified a lot of what Trent did and converted it to 3/4. Everyone look at the PDF as the score is now littered with little notes about why I did things. If there are any questions, please feel free to post them here.

Trent's Etude No. 2 Simplified - Score (PDF) (http://www.fupduckonline.com/music/GPO-Academy/Trents-Exercise-1.pdf)

The MP3 file - click here (http://www.fupduckonline.com/music/GPO-Academy/EtudeNo2.mp3)

[jackull]

Jump on in! I would be glad to take on more students. :cool:


Can I email you as an attachment for my Assignments? I have to figure out how to post a link.

JACKuLL

[jesshmusic]

Can I email you as an attachment for my Assignments? I have to figure out how to post a link.

JACKuLL

Sure, the email is music@fupduckonline.com

[trentpmcd]

Jess,

Thanks for the in depth critique.

I did misunderstand your directions and made this more of a two-movement piece than an AABB format piece.

Some of the problems with notation aren’t problems with Overture but in my knowledge of Overture – I just started using it and can’t figure out a few things, such as how to make a dynamic marking effect both parts. I know it’s possible, just haven’t found it yet.

Until very recently I didn’t write music that other people would play so things like phrase markings, dynamics and accents are definitely an area I need work.

As you saw in my post on the composer forum, I wrote this partially as an exercise in modulation. From your remarks I guess that part of the exercise went well. :)

I just took a quick look at the pdf file you posted. A lot of interesting remarks and changes. One thing you remarked on is a place were added a little drama – this last week I’ve been spending a lot of time working on that very thing. I’ve written a few more variations on the theme just to practice building climaxes and adding drama – a lot of material has come from that 3-note theme you posted.

Well, so far I’ve gotten a lot out of you class. Now on to Passacaglia, with a revisit of the piano piece in the near future.

[jesshmusic]

All Students: Everyone make sure you check this out as soon as you get a chance. :)

Trent's Etude No. 2 Simplified - Score (PDF) (http://www.fupduckonline.com/music/GPO-Academy/Trents-Exercise-1.pdf)

The MP3 file - click here (http://www.fupduckonline.com/music/GPO-Academy/EtudeNo2.mp3)

[jackull]

[QUOTE=jesshmusic]All Students: Everyone make sure you check this out as soon as you get a chance. :)


I have to catch up quickly.... getting excited.
This is a very nice piece(Trent/Jess). I like the simplicity of the melody. Really shows your experiences in writing. A nice model for this exercise.

J

[jesshmusic]

Hey guys, I have gotten a little behind checking everyone's stuff. If I have not checked an exercise you sent could you put up a post here telling me what still needs some checking. thanks. :)

[jackull]

Hey guys, I have gotten a little behind checking everyone's stuff. If I have not checked an exercise you sent could you put up a post here telling me what still needs some checking. thanks. :)

I sent you a pdf file by email. Assign1&2 needs to be check for me. I'm working on my assign3 now. Thanks

J

[DrChek]

Assignment 2 (Finale Format) (http://webpages.charter.net/drchek/GPOAcademy/Assgn2.MUS)

[chet reinhardt]

Jess

I sent a copy of my second attempt at the AABB exercise to your e-mail address. It is based on the not completely tonal transition theme from the solo clarinet exercise. By the way, I was stumped on how to "harmonize" it untill reading the link you posted on pitch theory. That broke the logjam. Patiently looking forward to your thoughts. (Your portfolio work with respect to your application must come first.)

Thanks and best wishes

Chet

[southportJim]

If I have not checked an exercise you sent could you put up a post here telling me what still needs some checking. thanks. :)

Jess,
You still have the first submission of my Assignment 2 unchecked. BTW, don't worry about turning this stuff around quickly...get your own stuff done first. It's great just having feedback so I don't mind waiting. ;-)

jim

[dermod]

Assignment 2. Not panicking.

[jesshmusic]

Ha! I guess I was more far behind than previously thought! Everyone bear with me and I will get to you. :D :eek: :cool:

[trentpmcd]

Jess,

I went back and changed my clarinet solo. Hope you like this version. If you can’t get to this any time soon, I understand.

MP3 (http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/clarinet-solo-1_5-7-2005.mp3)

PDF (http://trentsworld.com/music/postings/clarinet-solo-no_1.pdf)

[jesshmusic]

I am sorry to say there may be a much, much longer delay on checking your works because it turns out I will be able to attend the University of Tennessee School of Music this fall instead of next to get my Masters in Music Composition. That means I have to find an apartment, get student loans, go to Knoxville for an interview with the Professor who will be teaching me, and spend the next three monthes studying for the competancy exams in Music Theory and Music History. Since I have been out of school for 10 years, I have to redevelop my study skills.

I thank everyone for your patience, and keep up composing!

[southportJim]

...and spend the next three monthes studying for the competancy exams in Music Theory and Music History. Since I have been out of school for 10 years, I have to redevelop my study skills.

I thank everyone for your patience, and keep up composing!

Study hard...would s*ck to have to retake freshman sight-singing!

Good luck, and keep us posted...

;-)
Jim

[jesshmusic]

Fortunately I would just have to take a 400 level 'Review' class. still would be a drain on my time and delay things a bit!

[chet reinhardt]

Jess

Best wishes. Keep us posted.

You've got a lot of people rooting for you.

Chet