Where to put sample data on a G5?

[Mike Greene]

I finally got myself a G5, but one problem is it can only hold two internal hard drives. This is a problem because I'm used to having separate system, sample data, and audio drives on my G4s. I prefer not to use external drives.

My plan was to partition the first internal drive and put the system on one partition and the sample data on the other. Then use drive #2 exclusively for audio.

But the guy at the store, who is normally reliable with information, says I shouldn't put anything else on the system drive, even if it's partitioned. He says the partitions are just folders, and any changes to sample data partition will further fragment the system partion. This is the opposite of how I'd always thought partitions worked.

I hate to put the samples on my audio drive because at times, that will be a VERY busy drive!

Anybody here an authority on OSX and know which way I should go? Thanks!

- Mike Greene

[Veron]

How did you setup your G4 ?
I`m on a G4 and there are two connecters for ATA100/133
and 2 connecters for ATA/66.
Did you use the ATA/66 for the System and the
two ATA 100/133 for Audio and Samples ?
I`m asking this because , I now have two drives,
one for the system and audio , and one more for Samples only,
and was thinking of adding one more drive for audio.
Thanks :)

And your question , how about adding a PCI to SATA card.
I think you shouldn`t use this setup for the Sample drive because
I heard that you might not get the best out of the SATA HDD.
But thought you could use this for audio or the System
(if its bootable I mean.)
Or is there no place in your G5 to put the internal drive in ?

[Ned Bouhalassa]

There's no need to partition in OS X. For more info on this subject, read Jason Hyerstay's comment in the partition section of this page:
http://www.osxaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12004

[spettigrew]

Why, may I ask, don't you want to use external drives?? I would recommend you put ALL your samples on separate drives, that have nothing else on them. I agree with the store guy; keep your system separate. Why not get a fast drive and put it in a Firewire 800 case and run your samples off the firewire bus? I always use separate drives for system, audio/MIDI, picture and samples. It keeps bottlenecks/troubleshooting at a minimum. Imagine your system drive going bad and having to reload all your samples along with everything else. Actually, I've partitioned my system drive in the past and run picture from the non system partition, but I wasn't editing or doing anything other than picture playback and the picture gets deleted once a project is done, unlike samples.
Also if you use a sampler that requires a dongle, like Mach5, it's easy to move to another studio, just by bringing your sample drives and the dongle.
My .02,
_Scott

[Ned Bouhalassa]

The only thing that is a drag with external drives is that they're never as fast in the transfer of data as internal ones, and this will affect track count.

[Mike Greene]

How did you setup your G4 ?
I`m on a G4 and there are two connecters for ATA100/133
and 2 connecters for ATA/66.
Did you use the ATA/66 for the System and the
two ATA 100/133 for Audio and Samples ?
I`m asking this because , I now have two drives,
one for the system and audio , and one more for Samples only,
and was thinking of adding one more drive for audio.
Thanks

And your question , how about adding a PCI to SATA card.
I think you shouldn`t use this setup for the Sample drive because
I heard that you might not get the best out of the SATA HDD.
But thought you could use this for audio or the System
(if its bootable I mean.)
Or is there no place in your G5 to put the internal drive in ?


Why, may I ask, don't you want to use external drives??
Hey! This is MY topic. I'll be the one asking the questions around here!!!

Oh . . . all right, I'll answer your questions . . .

1. I put my samples drive (and the system drive) on the 66 bus and my audio drives on the 100/133 bus. But I can't say whether maybe I should have had the samples drive on the faster 100/133 bus. G5s only have room for two drives! Weird, huh?

2. I don't want to use external drives because they're slower (as Ned sez), I don't have an available PCI slot (taken by ProTools HD3 Accel), I don't like clutter, I don't feel like turning on yet one more piece of gear each day, I don't trust them, and lastly, I jus' don't wanna! :p

- Mike Greene

[Mike Greene]

There's no need to partition in OS X. For more info on this subject, read Jason Hyerstay's comment in the partition section of this page:
http://www.osxaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12004 Thanks for the link, Ned! :)

I understand Jason's reasoning, but I think my situation is better served by partitioning. If for no other reason, I like to have two system partitions in addition to the samples partition (unless someone knows that this sample partition would be harmful.)

- Mike Greene

[Ned Bouhalassa]

Mike, I don't know if this will help you, but here's what I do. Note that I'm a working composer, using samples very regularly in critical conditions (tv series and such). Like you, I have a G5 (dual 2ghz). I use Logic audio and the EXS, and a boatload of samples (though not a VSL-sized boatload!).

I have 2 internal drives, each 160gb. Drive A contains everything, including sample library material. Drive B is the backup. I use CarbonCopy to make a clone of Drive A as often as I can remember (ideally, once a week). No partitions, no problems. I also regularly update permissions using the Disk Utility software included in your system.

Now, the only problem(! - yeah right) I'm having is that I'm running out of space for my sample material! I'm buying Opus 1 soon and will have to make some tough decisions then... :D

[Guga Bernardo]

If you want to partition your drive, go ahead! It´s ok to do that as long as you choose well the sizes of your partitions, so that you don´t regret later.

[Mike Greene]

Ned, your setup is very similar to mine: Logic, EXS, too many soft synths and a G5. I'm encouraged to hear you're getting good results with everything (I guess that includes audio tracks as well?) all on one drive! :)

I'm still assuming I'd want my samples (including soft synths) on a separate drive from my audio in order to increase performance/speed. Is this a good assumption?

- Mike Greene

[Veron]

Hey! This is MY topic. I'll be the one asking the questions around here!!!

Oh . . . all right, I'll answer your questions . . .

1. I put my samples drive (and the system drive) on the 66 bus and my audio drives on the 100/133 bus. But I can't say whether maybe I should have had the samples drive on the faster 100/133 bus. G5s only have room for two drives! Weird, huh?

2. I don't want to use external drives because they're slower (as Ned sez), I don't have an available PCI slot (taken by ProTools HD3 Accel), I don't like clutter, I don't feel like turning on yet one more piece of gear each day, I don't trust them, and lastly, I jus' don't wanna! :p

- Mike Greene

Thanks, Mike!
I already have two ATA100/133 drives installed , one for system&audio,
one more for samples, so I`ll think of adding ATA66 for the system,
and one ATA 100/133 for audio :)
And yes it is weird that theres only room for two drives...
Even the PMG4 has 4 rooms...

One thing I can say is , I think you shouldn`t put the
Samples and System on the same drive, even if its in another
partition, if your using big samples like QLSO or VSL, or
anyother big samples library .
If I were you I`ll put the System & audio on the same HDD
(of course different partition`s) and Samples on the other HDD .
But as the guy at the store says , if the audio partition effects
the system partition ..... I think I`ll have a headache .... :(
Because for audio you really right in to the HDD manytimes,
for samples you need the best speed you can get
out of the harddrive....

IF you had a PCI slot open , you could of added a PCI to SATA card
and place the SATAHDD itself , out of the G5. And place the
HDD in a case ,thats sold seprately.
I know there are people doing this , but I think there not using
the Mac for Music&Audio so I don`t know if this setup will
fit you . And you also need a PCI slot open ..... :(

[spettigrew]

There's no need to partition in OS X. For more info on this subject, read Jason Hyerstay's comment in the partition section of this page:
http://www.osxaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12004

Good read Ned, thanks. When thinking about erring on the side of caution, I agreed with this, "If you really want to divide things up so that they are independent of each other performance-wise, you really need multiple drives."
Eventually a sample partition is going to fill up and you'll need another drive anyway.
As far as external drives NEVER being as fast as internal, I admit I haven't looked into this since pre G5, but it was negligible when I did my research. I'd be interested to see the benchmarks comparing running a partitioned internal with system, samples and maybe picture, vs internal with system only and samples from a FW 800 bus on a G5. I briefly checked xlr8, but didn't see anything. Do you know of a link??
Thanks,
_Scott

[Jaimo]

With no disrespect to Ned, I would never put my audio and samples on the same drive as my operating system. I'm a Logic/EXS user myself, and Logic (or any other program) is going to be constantly accessing the OS for instructions/commands. I think it's a bad idea to be trying to stream samples or reading/writing audio files on the same buss that the software is communicating with the OS.

Not to mention the disaster that could occur with a major disk error. Of course, Ned's cloned back-up takes care of that situation, so unless you're willing to be diligent with back-ups like that (which is ALWAYS a good idea anyhow), I'd be cautious going in that direction.

Also, OSX needs room on the system drive for swap files. It's simply too easy with today's mega sized libraries to fill up the system drive with samples, and once that drive gets filled up, and the OS can't do it's thing, there's considerable trouble headed your way.

I own a dual 2 gig G5 as well, and I installed a 10,000 RPM Raptor SATA drive as my 2nd internal drive, for all my audio files. I also have a LaCie 500 gig external firewire 800 drive that houses all my sample libraries. It streams big VSL type sized sounds without a hitch. FW 800 is pretty comparable to the internal SATA drives, as far as performance goes. Not quite as good, but very close.

If you streamed samples of that size more often than you ran audio tracks, you could reverse the roles of those drives, letting the 10,000 RPM drive hold the libraries, and play the audio from the FW 800.

There is also a company (whose name escapes me at the minute) that sells a device that holds 4 internal drives, and installs inside a G5. It's a little pricey, which is why I personally haven't looked into it, but it is an option. I see it all the time in Mac Mall or Club Mac advertisements.

Oh, and Ned, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trashing you... not at all. If what you're doing is working, rock on! (I just wouldn't do it that way myself! :) )

[Veron]

I have 2 internal drives, each 160gb. Drive A contains everything, including sample library material. Drive B is the backup. I use CarbonCopy to make a clone of Drive A as often as I can remember (ideally, once a week). No partitions, no problems. I also regularly update permissions using the Disk Utility software included in your system.

Now, the only problem(! - yeah right) I'm having is that I'm running out of space for my sample material! I'm buying Opus 1 soon and will have to make some tough decisions then... :D
Wow , everything (system, audio & samples) is running on the
same drive and partition ? Thats amazing :D

If I were you I would add a external backup drive, because
speed doesn`t mean much for backup stuff,
and make Drive B for Samples , and Drive A for the system &
audio . Then you`ll have enough space and hdd speed for Opus :)

[spettigrew]

!
and lastly, I jus' don't wanna! :p

- Mike Greene
Can't argue with that ;-)

I'm moving from a dual G4 to a dual G5 soon, so I'm paying close attention here. Heck, I've still got to have SCSI around since the Sony stages are still dubbing through the DATR's which only take SCSI. Sheesh!!
_S

[Nick Batzdorf]

I forget the maths, but in theory even Firewire 400 shouldn't reduce your track count, Ned, unless you're doing something silly like recording at 192. It has enough bandwidth for lots and lots of tracks.

Having said that, I'd rather use internal drives all things being equal.

[esteso]

Hmm, I use a Seritek SATA card with two two 250 GB Seagate drives hung from it. I think it's faster than my internal drives. if you think about it, the internal drives just run off a bus anyway, and the Seritek card has a little more throughput. No way would I live with only two drives in a G5.

[SWL]

The only thing that is a drag with external drives is that they're never as fast in the transfer of data as internal ones, and this will affect track count.

Both firewire specs have plenty of bandwidth - actually more than the I/O of the disk push through.

Even at 192k, you are limited more by the write speed of the disk.

Mike - just get a FW800 drive - end of discussion :-)

And if you are really clever, you will get an empty enclosure and load it with a 10k RPM Raptor!

[Veron]

Hmm, I use a Seritek SATA card with two two 250 GB Seagate drives hung from it. I think it's faster than my internal drives. if you think about it, the internal drives just run off a bus anyway, and the Seritek card has a little more throughput. No way would I live with only two drives in a G5.
I thought (heard) the cards make it slower and you can`t get
enough performance out of the drive . But looks like its
working for you . Interesting .
Maybe I`ll look into a SATA card and SATA HDD for my G4 :)

[Ned Bouhalassa]

Oh, and Ned, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trashing you... not at all. If what you're doing is working, rock on! (I just wouldn't do it that way myself! :) )

No, no, I really like when people show me the error of my ways and point me in a much better direction!!! Really! I'm going to follow Veron's advice and use my second internal for samples and backup on an external. Thanks people. ;)

[Jaimo]

Just to follow up...

The device I mentioned in my previous post that adds more internal storage to a G5 is called G5Jam. For the interested, there's more info here (http://www.clubmac.com/clubmac/shop/detail.asp?dpno=380474).

I can't vouch for it, but it looks cool... :p