Who do we write music for?

[jesshmusic]

Now, keeping in mind that GPO is the one we get the most performances right now, I had an epiphone!

This question seems pretty cut and dry, but I realized the answer is not so simple. I bet everyone says right away, "The audience! Duh!"

Think about this, though. Who decides what music even get's presented the audience we write for? The performers! These are who we have to impress first every time!

Now Phillip Glass's music is actually well liked by his fans, but performers hate it. (Oh god no! Not the same phrase over and over again for 10 mintues! AHHH!) So Glass hires his own ensemble to perform his music. We can't do that, that is why we have GPO.

What's the difference between impressing an audience and a performer? Well most all of us here are performers, so we should know. For serious professional performers there are two criteria to what they play. First, they have to like the music personally. Second, and just as important ... the act of performing it must be interesting to them if not challenging.

This doesn't mean the music has to be hard... just challenging. Even Adagio for Strings by Barber sounds easy, but it covers a wide range on the instruments and getting the proper expressivness is difficult.

So, in conclusion, I think we could all do well to think about whether we are writing something that might catch a performer's eye on the music shelf, the audience's love will follow.

As a matter of fact I now want to write something for the trombone!! I haven't played it in years because I switched to piano in college...


.... must ... finish ... the .... flute .... sonata!!!

[LFO]

Hello JessH,
Good topic.

I have found that when I compose for myself I find success more often. When I try to compose for someone else I usually fail. For me, music is a method to express something(s) specific as I see it from both the inside and outside. It is personal and is a method of sharing to see if other people can relate.

I know that sounds a bit hoity toity, but it is what it is. It feels good when others hear, enjoy and can relate to what I have written.

-LFO

[jesshmusic]

Hello JessH,
Good topic.

I have found that when I compose for myself I find success more often. When I try to compose for someone else I usually fail. For me, music is a method to express something(s) specific as I see it from both the inside and outside. It is personal and is a method of sharing to see if other people can relate.

I know that sounds a bit hoity toity, but it is what it is. It feels good when others hear, enjoy and can relate to what I have written.

-LFO

Of course that is the first priority, and I find that the best music I write because of this fact is my piano music. I guess my topic more addresses the secondary priority when writing.

Of course if you are commisioned I'm sure you at least think about what your performer likes! ;)

[lontas]

In my limited experience, the answer to this question isn't always the same. When I write something for theory class, the professor and the structures of common practice harmony dictate what I write. I'll usually end up with something that resembles the sound of whatever composer we're studying at the time. When I write something for myself, anything goes, and I end up with something very individual and expressive. If I know that the piece is to be performed by a student who has little time to rehearse it, I hold back on the virtuoso expressions and instead try to be creative using less-demanding passages.

I like to tailor my pieces to whatever the situation calls for. In my opinion, a good composer must be able to adjust to different situations and requirements without complaint.

Chris

[jesshmusic]

I like to tailor my pieces to whatever the situation calls for. In my opinion, a good composer must be able to adjust to different situations and requirements without complaint.

Chris

Absolutely!

[SeanHannifin]

What a thought provoking topic!

I think I'm kind of in a different boat, though, because I can't play an instrument (at least not that well), and I can't take any serious music class (at least not yet), so that really only leaves one person to write music for: me! As you say, that is top priority anyway. I'm not sure I want to worry too much about performers liking it, unless their likes coincide with mine. I do hope audiences will like it, but I would never change my style just for them. Then again, I probably don't have to worry about that anyway, since I probably have to seem a bit more serious about music for performers to even consider my works for playing . . . :D

[trentpmcd]

Actually, this was one of the many subjects brought up by my instructor yesterday. To paraphrase –

If the instrumentalists find the part dull, they’ll think the composer is dull, even if he/she is another Mozart. If, on the other hand, the instrumentalist enjoys the music, they will play it with passion and will put fire into the performance. That is when the magic happens.

Makes sense.

Of course you will get people who, like Kevin, are their own performer. He needs to worry only about his ideas and how to present them to his audience.

[Richard N.]

The problem is finding performers who actually listen to the whole as opposed to focussing on just their individual part.

Not all individual parts require "fire" - often the fire and magic comes from a soloist or a solo line and the ensemble demands a restrained approach.

Example: Ravel's Bolero - there are many individual parts that in isolation are not exciting to perform, it is only when the sum of all the parts is experienced that the excitement comes.

Switching to another genre, there are a series of classic Big Band charts that feature trumpet duets - (e.g. Memories of You, Stardust, ..) where again the backing parts are very straightforward and it is only when the soloists are added that the performance makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck.

Too many performers do not listen to what is going on around them, and can't get into the mindset of hearing how what they are playing mixes with what others are playing and actually becomes something new.

Adagio for Strings was a great example that I can use for my approach to performing. Just looking at the first 16 or so measures, the voicing of the parts is beautiful. Perhaps many performers would look on the start of the piece as a "settling in" period before you get down to the meaty climax, but real musicians would play each measure and hear how their part interacts with the other parts to create a beautiful sound.

My main instrument is trombone, and whilst I enjoy many aspect of trombone playing - extended range (high and low), fast articulations, power that can kill at 20 paces...... there is a particularly powerful experience that occurs when playing slow pieces with perfectly voiced chords. Repeating myself I know, but the individual parts practised at home would soon drive spouses to boredom - it is only when all the parts are put together that the magic occurs. But as I said, there are many who don't listen to the whole and would write such music off as boring to play.

Music that I write out of my own volition (i.e. not through a commission or at the request of someone else) I write for myself. However, when I have finished the composition/arrangement so that it goes somewhere to satisfying my particular aural desires, I will revisit it with my "commercial" hat on and revise (or completely change) the arrangement to make it accessible to a particular ensemble or audience whilst still trying to retain some of the essence of it's soul.

An analogy to perhaps sum this up -

I love spicy food - Chilli con carne in particular. The chilli is made up of many ingredients each of of which would not be appetising if served as a meal in isolation would be very boring and unpalatable. It is only when all the individual ingredients are put together and the parts become a whole that is different to the sum of the parts that the magic happens. However - I like my chilli really strong, and this is how I cook it for myself. If I want to share my meal with the rest of the family or friends, I have to make it much more mild - and sometimes call it something else so that they don't realise that I am getting them to eat chilli. [well the analogy almost works.... :) ]

[jesshmusic]

Richard: Bartok had a wonderful solution to some of the orchestra being bored by their parts. He composed the amazing Concerto for Orchestra, where everyone's part is virtuosic. And he did it almost to perfection. To me this is one of the greatest orchestra pieces ever composed, and all of the performers I know love it when the orchestra they are in puts it in the programs.

Even on trombone it's fun.

As a double bassist (I play too many instruments), I can say that Bolero is not something I would look forward to playing. But as a trombonist I would be thrilled. ;) Especially if I am principle... then I get to play one of the most famous trombone solos after the Tuba Mirum from Mozart's Requiem Mass in Dm.

[Richard N.]

Richard: ... then I get to play one of the most famous trombone solos after the Tuba Mirum from Mozart's Requiem Mass in Dm.

Jess, personally I prefer the Alto trombone part in the Requiem - but that's the beauty of music, everyone sees it form their own unique perspective.

Actually I am interested in your approach to Bolero if you were on a Double Bass as opposed to the Principal Trombone chair - would your interest in being aked to play the Double Bass part be affected by whether someone like [insert your favourite trombonist's name here] Christian Lindberg or Bill Watrous was sat in the Principal Trombone chair?

Surely being a small, integral but perhaps not very exciting cog in a large fantastic machine is more (or certainly not less) enjoyable/rewarding than being a very interesting cog in an otherwise very dull machine?

[jesshmusic]

I'm not sure what you are asking, but the double bass does the same thing over and over again throught the entire piece. I have played lots of stuff like this. It doesn't take much effort to blend well in a part so easy (I have to emphasise how easy it is ;)) so I spend most of the time listening to the rest of the piece unfold. I would rather be playing than in the audience, however. And chances are Bolero will not be the only thing on the program and a more challenging part is sure to come.

[Richard N.]

I suppose I am saying that musicians should listen to the whole when playing - and if the whole is good/stimulating/whatever, then they should enjoy playing their part no matter how (un)interesting it is just to be contibuting to the overall performance.

And to get back on thread..... we all must write for ourselves, it has to be selfish on the most basic level - to achieve self satisfaction, approval of others, notoriety, or some other reward. If there wasn't something in it for the composer then he wouldn't do it.

[falcon1]

If you write dull parts for the performers, then that's what you will get from the performer!

It's necessary to try to write interesting part for every player in the orchestra, if the player enjoys his part - he will play better!

And of course if you explore the greatest works for orchestra then you will see that it contains interesting lines etc. for every player. If you can't write something interesting for some player, then you should think about deleting him out of the score. :)

[Richard N.]

I understand some musicians need to be kept interested by their own part, but it can't always be done.

However, there is often a need for potentially unintersting parts to be written - an example would be orchestral percussionists who must have great patience, great counting skills, an acceptance that they might only be playing for a very small percentage of the total piece - and lot's of newspapers to read!

:)

[falcon1]

I understand some musicians need to be kept interested by their own part, but it can't always be done.

However, there is often a need for potentially unintersting parts to be written - an example would be orchestral percussionists who must have great patience, great counting skills, an acceptance that they might only be playing for a very small percentage of the total piece - and lot's of newspapers to read!

:)
Richard, few notes doesn't necessarely mean uninteresting! :)

[Richard N.]

Falcon,

Agreed - lots of notes equally do not necessarily mean interesting!

I don't think I am expressing myself very well on this thread, so I'll leave it there until I know myself what I am trying to say :)

I'll get back to my current composition which at the moment is a combination of notes with varying degrees of interest.

[jesshmusic]

To me, keeping a part interesting to the performer is harder is orchestral. That is why most performers I know love chamber music even more than orchestral.

Note to forum: Let's get some more chamber music from you guys!!! You are much more likely to get chamber music published. Especially sonatas and pieces for three or less instruments.


Oh, and yes, in orchestral or large ensemble inevitably someone is going to have a less exciting part.... I will tell you it is usually the violist. I try to give the viola some lov whenever I can. I think every musical instrument joke started with the viola. Not even the great Paganini (by taking up viola) could save it from joke hell. Give the dang violins the boring part for once!

[falcon1]

Jess, I'm with you in regards to the violist parts. :) I always try to make something interesting for everyone, but of course some parts are more interesting than others but I try avoid to write too boring parts. :)

[SeanHannifin]

I must admit, I'm guilty of writing boring parts. :o My friend plays the double bass and he refused to even listen to my latest work because the double bass part is so incredibly boring . . .

[Styxx]

Who do we write music for? For a while....:D
Actually, if I could write music I would give you an answer. Lately, trash ... just trash.

[SeanHannifin]

Lately, trash ... just trash.
One man's trash . . . is usually trash. :eek: :D

[Thud]

Hmmm, good question. Most of the time I write music for me... more recently, for some friends who produce short films.
I haven't written much of anything for stage performance, but I've done a few drum scores for competition pipe band tunes (you know, bagpipes + drums) and I'm working on a new drum salute right now.

The competition tunes are more for the performers (and judges I suppose), they gotta be interesting and challenging to play, though it's kind of an esoteric art form that most of the general music-listening populace won't "get."

[Styxx]

There are no applications for the jobs I want. Then apply for someting else! ;)

[rwayland]

Now, keeping in mind that GPO is the one we get the most performances right now, I had an epiphone!

This question seems pretty cut and dry, but I realized the answer is not so simple. I bet everyone says right away, "The audience! Duh!"

Think about this, though. Who decides what music even get's presented the audience we write for? The performers! These are who we have to impress first every time!

Now Phillip Glass's music is actually well liked by his fans, but performers hate it. (Oh god no! Not the same phrase over and over again for 10 mintues! AHHH!) So Glass hires his own ensemble to perform his music. We can't do that, that is why we have GPO.

What's the difference between impressing an audience and a performer? Well most all of us here are performers, so we should know. For serious professional performers there are two criteria to what they play. First, they have to like the music personally. Second, and just as important ... the act of performing it must be interesting to them if not challenging.

This doesn't mean the music has to be hard... just challenging. Even Adagio for Strings by Barber sounds easy, but it covers a wide range on the instruments and getting the proper expressivness is difficult.

So, in conclusion, I think we could all do well to think about whether we are writing something that might catch a performer's eye on the music shelf, the audience's love will follow.

As a matter of fact I now want to write something for the trombone!! I haven't played it in years because I switched to piano in college...


.... must ... finish ... the .... flute .... sonata!!!


Regarding my compositions: I have one pianist awaiting the completion of my latest piano piece that he accidentaly saw in my first sketches. He is also interested in some of my others, but they are quite difficult, and will take some time to learn. So I know that at least one active performing musician considers them worthwhile. A very few of my works have been performed publicly, some by me. All were well received. Many of my works have been heard in the GPO mp3's associated with my scores on Sibelius, and mostly, well received, Gary was, I think, impressed by my organ pieces, as were some organists.

HOWEVER: Sometimes I think they are all trash. Sometimes I listen to them and have no idea how I wrote them, and think they are good. Mostly, I know they are original, not indebted to a particular school or style, and that is what I want, although sometimes I wonder if that is a good idea. Last week, I was feeling depressed about my music, ready to dump it all. This week, my hands are functional again, piano playing is not so discouraging, and I am more pleased with my work.

Sometimes I feel that I am writing for my self; only partly true. Sometimes I feel that I write for the performer, also partly true. Sometimes I think I am writing for the audience, usually true. Since my commercial prospects are approximately zero, probably I write mostly just because it seems that I must do so, and without concern for whom it wil please.

Mostly, I really don't know who I am writing for, usually. Not for many, I think. Sometimes I would like to know, but not much will stop me from writing it. Since I live a near hermit life, it is not likely that it will receive much attention, but I would not mind if it did, as long as I could maintain my quiet self sequestered life.

[SeanHannifin]

"It is certain that we write better when we write for the public and if we write quickly" ~ L. v. Beethoven :eek:

[Styxx]

"It is certain that we write better when we write for the public and if we write quickly" ~ L. v. Beethoven :eek:
What? Sometimes I think the Masters were a bit off their rockers!:D Nevertheless, there is reality to this when consideration of scoring for film.

[jesshmusic]

Gyorgi Ligeti on composing: (I like his ideas with this):

"On being a Composer
It matters a great deal to me that my works should be understood. But my prime concern is to put an idea in writing. My ideal is Cezanne, who didn’t care whether his paintings were exhibited or not. To do it: that’s the main thing. Everything else – putting forward grand theories, gathering followers, becoming a ‘guru’ – leaves me cold. "