What's the most extensively sampled instrument?

[_naturalstudio_]

Hi,

I'm wondering what the most extensively sampled single instrument is...?

Not including multiple mic positions for the same strike.
Not including performance samples (e.g. VSL performance set).
Not including loops or pre-recorded licks or phrases.

In other words - what single sampled instrument contains the most single stroke/hit/bow/blow samples.

For example - SampleTekk White Grand would probably be a contender. But you could only count one of the mic position sets, as the other positions are only different in their ambience - i.e. there is no difference in the actual key strike.

Another good example is DFH Superior. It contains loads of samples, many of which are multiple mic positions of the same strikes. There are also many different drum kits. For DFH Superior to qualify it would have to be for one of their kits only, and from one of the mic positions. Scarbee Imperial Drums, BFD/XL would be in the same boat.

Another example - VSL Horizon Concert Guitar would qualify (as it's a single instrument) but not for it's performance samples or chords. On the other hand, VSL chamber strings wouldn't qualify, as it's contains recordings of string sections, not single instruments.

I think you get the idea.

In case you're wondering why I'm asking this - I'm trying to discern wheter or not ns_kit7 (the drum-kit library I'm working on) is a contender for most extensively sampled instrument ever. Also, it's quite a fun exercise to challenge all you sampled instrument boffins.

Douglas.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I have not actually counted samples, but the Larry Seyer Acoustic Drum Library is probably a contender.

[_naturalstudio_]

Hi Bruce,

Yeah - I wondered about that one. Anyone any ideas - Larry?

Remember, in the case of drum-kit libraries, the sample count can only be for one complete kit - not the sum of all the various kits.

To clarify - I realise that some drum libraries (mine included) might have different snares that you can use in the same kit. Clearly if these snares were recorded in the same position (i.e. at different times but on the same stand) it couldn't have been played in real life and as such doesn't qualify as one instrument. Make sense?

In the same way, if there was a saxophone library with three different saxophones, only one of those would count as you could only play one of them at a time.

Otherwise, you could just load up all the sounds within any given library and use that as the total sample count.

[Alan Lastufka]

I'm pretty sure the original SID from Scarbee would be the winner in the drum catagory. That whole lib is one kit, on 3 DVDs. The sample count is rediculous.

If talking all instruments, I'm sure the winner will be one of the newer pianos for a single instrument... Black/White Grands or The Emperor from Post.

[_naturalstudio_]

I'm pretty sure the original SID from Scarbee would be the winner in the drum catagory. That whole lib is one kit, on 3 DVDs. The sample count is rediculous.

If talking all instruments, I'm sure the winner will be one of the newer pianos for a single instrument... Black/White Grands or The Emperor from Post.

How many samples in those pianos? Also, with regards to Scarbee - it's not all one kit (as far as I'm aware). There are different snares and kicks. Also, there're multiple mic's. Anyone know how many single strike samples there are for one kit on one of the mic's?

I'd be surprised if the biggest library was a piano - mainly due the minimal articulation when compared to a violin, for example - off the string/on the string staccato, flautando, up strokes, down strokes, pizz, bartok pizz, con sord. etc...

[Alan Lastufka]

The new SID XL released w/ Sonic Implants has multiple kits/pieces, but the original SID is only one kit AFAIK. Played with sticks, palms and brushes. And the multi-mics are, from what I can tell (please someone correct me if I'm wrong), are just routing samples to multiple outs, I don't think they are actually seperate mic samples.

The reason I brought up the pianos (and I may be wrong) is because of the insane amount of velocities some of the newer pianos are getting. Sure violins have many more articulations, but usually only 2 or 3 velocity layers for them and far fewer notes in their range. Some of the new pianos have 32 velocities pedal up, 32 velocities pedal down for 88 notes.

And pure sample count doesn't mean extensive. Extensive, IMO, is how detailed it was sampled - I don't think you'll find anything more detailed in its capture than the new pianos or drums. You don't see violin libs with 32 velocities.

[_naturalstudio_]

The new SID XL released w/ Sonic Implants has multiple kits/pieces, but the original SID is only one kit AFAIK. Played with sticks, palms and brushes. And the multi-mics are, from what I can tell (please someone correct me if I'm wrong), are just routing samples to multiple outs, I don't think they are actually seperate mic samples.
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are multiple mic's. Also - I'm 99% certain there are different kicks and snares.


The reason I brought up the pianos (and I may be wrong) is because of the insane amount of velocities some of the newer pianos are getting. Sure violins have many more articulations, but usually only 2 or 3 velocity layers for them and far fewer notes in their range. Some of the new pianos have 32 velocities pedal up, 32 velocities pedal down for 88 notes.
You're right - there are a lot of velocity layers. But as I said, there are limited articulations.


And pure sample count doesn't mean extensive. Extensive, IMO, is how detailed it was sampled - I don't think you'll find anything more detailed in its capture than the new pianos or drums. You don't see violin libs with 32 velocities.
Definitely a valid point. I realise the wording in my original post may have implied otherwise -sorry. If a real instrument only had one note, one dynamic and one articulation, a three note sample set would be as extensive as that instrument could get! However, in general I'd imagine sample count will be relative to how extensively an instrument is sampled (especially when taking into account the conditions layed out in the original post).

And yes - extensive is about the *detail* - 100% agreed. That's why I'm excluding multiple mic's from the sample count as that doesn't make the instrument any more detailed, only the recording.

But seriously, are there no violin libraries out there with loads of articulations *and* loads of velocity layers?

[Alan Lastufka]

But seriously, are there no violin libraries out there with loads of articulations *and* loads of velocity layers?

Well, the Kirk Hunter Solo Strings is impressive in both - but even more so for its sound. Not sure of the sample count but it comes on 2 dvds for the violin, viola, cello and bass. Great lib IMO.

EDIT: 15,264 samples according to Windows -> Properties for the KH Solo Strings. And that's only one mic position.

EDIT #2: And our own Lyrical Distortion is one guitar, one mic position at 4,184 samples.

[Worra]

[QUOTE=_naturalstudio_]How many samples in those pianos? QUOTE]

Black Grand - 2352 samples/perspective
White Grand/White Sister - 1822 samples each
Upcoming SampleTekk Yamaha C7 - 4640 samples/perspective (might not use them all...:))
Upcoming SampleTekk Tubed Rhodes 73 - 2336 samples

[_naturalstudio_]

Hey Worra - they're the sort of stats I'm looking for - thanks!

Also - may I take this oportunity to say that I really like the sound of the Black Grand mid-perspective. Something very Jarrett-esque about it; definitely not a bad thing!

[_naturalstudio_]

EDIT: 15,264 samples according to Windows -> Properties for the KH Solo Strings. And that's only one mic position.
Is that all the strings, or just solo violin, for example? Also - I notice from their site that there are minor scales and arpeggios - these wouldn't count.

[Alan Lastufka]

That was for all the strings - I just did a Properties check on the main folder on my HDD.

But our guitar is all single note multisamples, no phrases or loops or garbage like that.

[_naturalstudio_]

no phrases or loops or garbage like that.
He he - I like it! So does that include the power chords? Not sure whether that should qualify...? What do you reckon. Also - what are the release samples? Are they separate samples or just the same samples with a different start point?

Either way - looks like you could be a contender :)

[fizbin]

I'm thinking it's probably Drumkit from Hell Superior. As well as the primary samples of which there are many articulations, velocities, and randoms, (+ some hits with rods and brushes), there is a mic bleed sample for every one of those through every mic (kick, snare top, snare bottom, hihat, 5 toms, under tom mic, stereo overheads, stereo ambience). The ambience mics would be a little different since its not really bleed, but just the ambience samples for all the hits. It's 9 DVDs weighing in at ~36GB. I don't think SID can touch this with regards to this question, and I can't comment on Larry Seyer's drums since I have less knowledge of them. Of course, bigger is not always better, but DFHS is pretty damn cool when it's time to rock.

fizbin

[Alan Lastufka]

Fizbin,

We're not counting multi-mics though - so if there are eight mics in that set up or whatever - the content would have to be divided by eight.

[fizbin]

So the only criteria is raw sample count without extra mics? I'm confused. The mic bleed adds to the detail of the instrument. It's basically trying to emulate (in the end - after rendering) a mix of real drum tracks that you would get in a real session. With most sampled kits you'll get very isolated sounds, plus maybe an ambience track on some of the good ones, but with this you get to hear the kick (slightly) in the snare track, the snare in the kick, etc. It results in some pretty convincing drum parts, depending on the skill of the programmer (as with any sample lib).

fizbin

[Alan Lastufka]

fizbin,

The drum kit I developed is multi-mic also because I realize the need for this, especially in unprocessed, natural libs (which DKFH is not, it is very processed) but for _naturalstudios_ question the multi mic is kinda cheating because its the same 'note' just captured in multiple mics. It doesn't mean you are gaining any depth into the instrument - only in the resulting sound.

[Aaron Dirk]

He he - I like it! So does that include the power chords? Not sure whether that should qualify...? What do you reckon. Also - what are the release samples? Are they separate samples or just the same samples with a different start point?

Either way - looks like you could be a contender :)


Lyrical Distortion1 comes in at over 4000 samples, and it is volume 1.

Lyrical Distortion2-Extended, is the exact same rig, and will double the count.

LD2 adds: up picking, staccato, harmonics and much more....

[_naturalstudio_]

So the only criteria is raw sample count without extra mics?
Exactly.

The mic bleed adds to the detail of the instrument. Not sure that I necessarily agree. It adds to the *recording* detail, certainly, but not to the detail of the instrument. I realise this may sound like I'm slurring the opposition - but that's not the case. I think Superior is a fine product.


It's basically trying to emulate (in the end - after rendering) a mix of real drum tracks that you would get in a real session. With most sampled kits you'll get very isolated sounds, plus maybe an ambience track on some of the good ones, but with this you get to hear the kick (slightly) in the snare track, the snare in the kick, etc.
That's true. However, with bounce downs of a multiple mic'd kit you also get that effect, but obviously with less tweakability for the end user.

depending on the skill of the programmer (as with any sample lib).
Isn't that always the case! ;) If only there was a plug in that could program all your parts and make them sound convincing . Jamstix looks like it's getting pretty close, but there's a long way to go.

[jeffn1]

Tell me more about LD 2 (sorry to change topic--maybe a new thread is in order). Are there additional chords?

jefffn1

[_naturalstudio_]

The drum kit I developed is multi-mic also because I realize the need for this, especially in unprocessed, natural libs (which DKFH is not, it is very processed)
I think DFHS is uprocessed...?

I don;t want to risk this thread getting off topic, but I'm inclined to agree with your views on multi-mic'ing. It does add a certain extra tweakability for unprocessed sounds. The downside is that it also eats up polyphony/track count. We found that bounce downs to stereo of the multi mic samples allowed us to use much more velocity layers. It's a kind of give and take situation. Maybe in a few years you can have loads of velocity layers/articulations and multiple mic's, but on todays computers it is impossible to have both and play it back live - the samplers just can't keep up.

[Alan Lastufka]

Tell me more about LD 2 (sorry to change topic--maybe a new thread is in order). Are there additional chords?

More info when the time is appropriate - no reason for a thread for it... its not additional chords - its additional articulations for what LD1 has. So it is digging further into the instrument - same rig, same signal path - it will plug in perfectly with LD1 owners but offer you greater expression.

[Alan Lastufka]

I don;t want to risk this thread getting off topic, but I'm inclined to agree with your views on multi-mic'ing.

It can be a problem - but I think the drums I developed sit right in between the two, you and I can speak more in detail privately about my kit if you'd like as its not released yet. My goal was to faithfully recreate a multitrack session within Kontakt, as if you had laid down a real drummer in any top-notch studio. So you can throw some verb on the snare mic (and it effects every piece of the kit (and the snare's ringing when other pieces are struck with force)), or throw a comp on the overheads and squash em to death - whatever floats your boat - you know?

I've been successfully running it on my modest Pentium 4 2.4GHz w/ 768MB of RDRAM PC1066 so it should run on most systems of these guys.

If you would like to talk more privately about these things my AIM is "LastLibs" and I'll be free this evening.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I know that Larry's kit weighs in at something over 8,300 samples. It's fairly extensive, but yes, does have multiple snares and kicks, and multiple stick/rod/mallet choices.

It is not, however, a multi-position sample set. They used convolution for that.

[_naturalstudio_]

Could the winner be the Prominy LPC Gibson Les Paul?

It certainly seems *incredibly* detailed. If someone could give me an exact sample count while also taking into consideration the conditions stated perviously in this thread, that'd be great.

Shame - I though ns_kit7 was in with a real chance there :( ;).

Ah well - maybe I'll just have to settle for most extensively sampled drum kit!

Douglas.

[Akihito Okawa]

Could the winner be the Prominy LPC Gibson Les Paul?

It certainly seems *incredibly* detailed. If someone could give me an exact sample count while also taking into consideration the conditions stated perviously in this thread, that'd be great.


LPC Electric Distortion & Clean Guitar:

Total 144,674 samples

(172,454 samples including derivative samples which are used in Realtime Legato Instruments)


Thank you :)

Akihito Okawa
Prominy

[_naturalstudio_]

LPC Electric Distortion & Clean Guitar:

Total 144,674 samples

(172,454 samples including derivative samples which are used in Realtime Legato Instruments)


Thank you :)

Akihito Okawa
Prominy
Ladies and gents, I think we have a winner!

Does that include the chords etc? Even so, there seems to be little doubt you're the champ!

[Akihito Okawa]

LPC Electric Distortion & Clean Guitar:

Total 144,674 samples

(172,454 samples including derivative samples which are used in Realtime Legato Instruments)


Thank you :)

Akihito Okawa
Prominy

If you count the clean samples and the distortion samples separately, the count will be a half.

Akihito Okawa :)
Prominy