Howard Shore and Games

[dwdonehoo]

Well, if we needed any proof of the legitimacy of games and game music, one only need look as far as this latest story of Academy Award winner and Lord of the Rings composer Howard Shore scoring a game:

http://www.music4games.net/n_howardshore_sun_npr.html (http://www.music4games.net/n_howardshore_sun_npr.html)

OK Howard, you have made the point for us. Now go back to movies; go score "The Hobbit" or something. :rolleyes:

Now game producers need to get over this notion that to get a Hollywood score, they have to hire a Hollywood composer. Ridiculous.

[Houston Haynes]

Yeah - he should get a real job or something... [Houston scurries to find Peter Jackson's phone number in his Rolodex] :D

[TLarkin]

OK Howard, you have made the point for us. Now go back to movies; go score "The Hobbit" or something.
I'm sure many film composers said relatively the same thing to Michael Giachinno...

Now game producers need to get over this notion that to get a Hollywood score, they have to hire a Hollywood composer.Ridiculous.
I know there are plenty of talented composers in games, but geez, if you can get Howard Shore to do your score, and afford it, why not? He's just as talented as most game composers I know. :) He's paid his career dues. I really don't see anything ridiculous about it. Sure it's one less game that's available for a "game" composer, but would you turn down a film gig because of your background if Peter Jackson called you up? Are there any game composers out there that have the rights over Howard Shore to score a game?
Heck, I hear that Peter himself is working on the King Kong game with Ubisoft, should he just stick with what he's done previously, film?
Maybe it's time we look at things a bit more globally and classify ourselves as composers. Yes we do games, but I would hate to be limited to just that, as I'm sure Howard would agree. Sure there's a bit of Hollywood attached, but I'm sure that won't hurt the title any, and I'm sure the game producer knows that as well.

Tim

[KC]

Well, if we needed any proof of the legitimacy of games and game music, one only need look as far as this latest story of Academy Award winner and Lord of the Rings composer Howard Shore scoring a game:

http://www.music4games.net/n_howardshore_sun_npr.html (http://www.music4games.net/n_howardshore_sun_npr.html)

OK Howard, you have made the point for us. Now go back to movies; go score "The Hobbit" or something. :rolleyes:

Now game producers need to get over this notion that to get a Hollywood score, they have to hire a Hollywood composer. Ridiculous.



Hi Doyle,

Actually, I don't think there's anyone better qualified to deliver a "Hollywood" score than an established Hollywood composer, particularly if the budget of the project allows it.

On the flipside of this coin, Howard Shore is no more out of place scoring a video game than a video game composer is venturing into either television or film scoring. And yet, it's happening more and more, particularly since video games are becoming more cinematic and their budgets are soaring.

The fact that this developer was able to hire Howard Shore is interesting, as is the fact that Shore displayed any interest in scoring a video game. However, as with all aspects of production, I think it really comes down to finances and if a production can afford a major Hollywood composer whose work is known and in this case, universally lauded, then they will choose that composer over composers who may typically be sought after in the video game world. And I don't mean to open a can of worms, but it's not often one hears the scope of someone like Shore's work in a video game, so if anything, it will be a refreshing and welcome experience.

Best wishes,

Kaveh

www.kavehcohen.con

[rikp]

I love Howard, especially since he is a DP user :D

Peace

Rik

[IOComposer]

I think this is a great evolution for games. The sooner we have more quality in games the better. The legitimacy of game music has only to do with the well earned reputation of poorly produced music. When all games have as high a production standard as films do, then it will get the reputation it deserves. I can't believe I'm still hearing some of the midi stuff that I hear in some recently released games. Maybe having to contend with Howard Shore scores is the kind of motivation game developers need to allocate more resources to the actual production of the score.
-Jamey

[dwdonehoo]

I think this is a great evolution for games....The legitimacy of game music has only to do with the well earned reputation of poorly produced music. ...I can't believe I'm still hearing some of the midi stuff that I hear in some recently released games.-Jamey

Despite the fact my post was a bit tongue in cheek (hey, Shore is one of my favorite composers!), there is some element of truth in what I wrote. I believe the quote above is true. With the tools available today (which were not available in the days when game music earned its "reputation of poorly produced music"), there is not now an excuse for poorly produced music.

There is nothing at all ridiculous about H. Shore doing game music (I was not implying that), just the notion that to get the "Hollywood Sound" you have to use a Hollywood composer. I am sure game, movie, TV and indie composers around the world would not agree and there are many just as good or better than the majority of composers living in LA and Hollywood. In a different class are the big budget composers, and the fact some game companies can afford them says something, hence the the idea of the legitimacy of game music as an art form rivaling film music.

And as a matter of fact, there is a notion in the minds of major game producers (in particular in the mind of one very major game company head) that they must use Hollywood composers, well known if possible. Sure, there is some status gained, but mostly their reason is they think they can get the sound only with a Hollywood composer. If y'all are content with that...well OK! http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

(If you want some proof of what I say, then perhaps I can get someone who knows first hand to write on this subject. You don't have to take my word for it.)

[Rich Pell]

I think its so ironic ( in a funny way) that H. Shore is now viewed as a "Hollywood" composer. I still think of him as David Cronenbergs 1st choice composer ( they must have made at least half a dozen pictures together), and CBC composer , back when he was making very Canadian style movies and scores. I mean he so freakin Torontoian ! This is the guy who used to play sax with Lighthouse! oOne of the most "Canadian" sounding bands! He just comped that style to be able to do what hes doing now..believe me , he grew into that "hollywood" style of writing.. his early work is nothing like that. ;) Which of course doesn take anything away from how brilliant he is.. Rich

[IOComposer]

It's not about "the sound", Doyle. It has to do with calber and vision, though I'm not surprised that you think this way given many of the statements I've read from you in the past. If you think there are so many "just as good" composers just lying around the world then I'd have to argue that. If they're so great, why aren't they climbing the hill in Hollywood? Being great isn't about counterpoint or clever ostinatos, sample libraries or anything else in that insignificant realm. It's about clarity of vision and the refinement of an artistic voice. It's also about how good you are at getting your voice heard and establishing your legitimacy. I've listened to hundreds of demos from these so called "just as good" composers with all of their wonderful sounding sample libraries and either we're listening to different things or you're dazzled by the fidelity and are overlooking the lack of caliber that I hear. I mostly just hear a bunch of overzealous technicians with the capacity to write a lot of meaningless notes. Everyone seems just so pleased with themselves that they can make "orchestral sounding" music that they fill their demos up with "that sound" and forget that music has the capacity to say something very meaningful, and doesn't have to necessarily come in the wannabe wrapper.

Steve hires seasoned composers for a reason, Doyle. And if you think he lacks vision for that then you need to change your perspective. If you really knew the life of the Hollywood composer and you understood the struggle and sacrifices that we make on a daily basis in this town, you'd think differently. You'd understand why it isn't just about the making of the music but everything around it. I don't believe you're going to understand much about this world from San Jose because you're just not in it.
-Jamey

[dwdonehoo]

It's not about "the sound", Doyle.... If you think there are so many "just as good" composers just lying around the world then I'd have to argue that. -Jamey

I believe in the mind of some, it is "the sound" and style.

Also, I made the point of "most composers" and "the big budget composers", and I believe there is a difference between them. I also think there are composers in and out of the LA basin who believe what they do is based on their talent and abilities, not their present location.

OBTW, for all. Lets debate the issues. There is no need at all to get personal. This has the makings of a good discussion. Lets stay on the high road.

[IOComposer]

Ah nevermind. I don't really wish to have this conversation here.
-Jamey

[SeanHannifin]

The advantage of getting a famous composer to do the score is that you get that famous name attached to the product. I'm sure other composers could do a splendid job of scoring the game, but the public probably likes to hear "With a score from Howard Shore" more than "With a score from Bobby McNobby, who hasn't done anything before, but give him a chance" :D

[rikp]

I know that the first thing my 12 year old checks when he buys a new game is the composer. Not! :D


Peace

Rik

[Houston Haynes]

Heh - well, no one here should have an illusions about how much the game market has impacted film and television viewing of the "cherished demographic". If games would have attracted more females then they might have closed down prime time soap operas all together and the networks would be showing re-runs of "Home Improvement" instead of "The OC". ;) It's not the big of a surprise that where entertainment dollars flow, the big-time entertainers will follow. Aside from music, this also includes voice-over talent and "named" actors doing role-play sequences for games (Clive Owen is the only one that jumps to mind - but I'm
sure we could do just a bit of forensics and find plenty of cogent examples).

As far as the "Hollywood composer" conversation goes (so far as it has been crystalized in this thread) I think that there's a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy in the argument that "the cream only rises in Hollywood". I certainly am *not* a significantly different composer than I was when I lived in North Carolina, or Washington D.C. Since I've moved to Los Angeles, I've made significant headway, in less than two years. Being that I was on a five-year plan to eventually leave the office job behind for full-time scoring - I feel like I'm running significantly ahead of schedule. I would never had dreamed that by now I would have had scoring credits on a feature film that's run in Milan, Berlin and Toronto film festivals. I certainly don't think that's happened because I'm a different composer than I was two years ago. IMNSHO, it's an aspect of Toffler-styled tacit enculturation that if someone knows you're in Los Angeles, you "must be serious". One company I was pursuing in Washington D.C. eventually told me that they liked my music, but they hired all of their composers "out of Hollywood". I kid you not.

In a lot of ways, I think that game development and some of the Rodriguez-styled film directors will force much of that attitude to fall by the wayside. As digital filmmaking and HDV take hold, the lines between different tiers of "notoriety" will likely fade. So I look at it as the glass being half-full. I'd like to think that I could build enough of a (good) reputation that I could live anywhere I want and still continue to work on worthwhile projects that pay well. Breaking down the perception barriers between film scoring and game scoring can only help that - even if it seems like it's going in the "wrong direction" today.

[IOComposer]

Heh - well, no one here should have an illusions about how much the game market has impacted film and television viewing of the "cherished demographic". If games would have attracted more females then they might have closed down prime time soap operas all together and the networks would be showing re-runs of "Home Improvement" instead of "The OC". ;) It's not the big of a surprise that where entertainment dollars flow, the big-time entertainers will follow.

Or perhaps, the next "big time entertainers" will rise up through the medium. I've been in the game industry for a looong time and I've seen countless times big movie people try to bring Hollywood production sensibilities to games and fail miserably. They then of course, give up and stick to what they know they can succeed at. Games appeal to different and more primal sences in people. While games rarely touch on the emotional aspect of entertainment, it appeals in spades to the cognitive and sensury gratification aspects of human thinking, which is ultimately stronger than emotional curiosity in males. That's why a game has more power to attract males than a movie; barring the exceptional action adventure movie. If games could somehow become less sensory and more emotional, then it will attract the female demographic (god I sound like a f***in suit), but they are two different things, obviously. I have yet to experience a game that moved me emotionally. It's definitely a frontier that will be sought after soon and one that will take extreme boldness to succeed. I believe this is because emotion comes from the human experience and digital characters cannot express that unless it is a highly crafted and expressive animation. I'm not convinced that realtime digital characters will be able to do this in the near future though I would never be so shortsighted as to rule out the possibility. I worked on a movie with a digital character and sat in a theater with 80% of the audience in tears so I know that it can be done but doing it in realtime is another story altogether.

As far as composing goes, I do think that composing for games is technically tougher than films and likewise, it's more difficult for a game composer who is used to writing music for an activity to be able to turn around and master the emotional requirements of film. All this to say that there are very core differences between the two and it's important for those of us who do both to be grounded in and understand the difference so that we're in good service to the different genres. For me, I was always more artistically suited to score films but evolved a competency for game music just through sheer practice.



Aside from music, this also includes voice-over talent and "named" actors doing role-play sequences for games (Clive Owen is the only one that jumps to mind - but I'm
sure we could do just a bit of forensics and find plenty of cogent examples).

Name actors have been doing games for a long time. I recorded Brent Spiner and Patrick Steward for a Star Trek game in 1997 and I recorded Brad Dourif for Myst3 in 1999. There is currently a major SAG uproar based on this exact issue of big names working in games.


As far as the "Hollywood composer" conversation goes (so far as it has been crystalized in this thread) I think that there's a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy in the argument that "the cream only rises in Hollywood". (SNIP) IMNSHO, it's an aspect of Toffler-styled tacit enculturation that if someone knows you're in Los Angeles, you "must be serious". One company I was pursuing in Washington D.C. eventually told me that they liked my music, but they hired all of their composers "out of Hollywood". I kid you not.

What the hell are you talkin' bout Toffler-style tacit enclutration...geez..you're such a geek! ;)

You're absolutely correct, Houston. There is "percieved value" that sets Hollywood composers apart from the rest of the crowd. This is not going to change anytime soon. Ironically, this is one of the very reasons why I moved to LA. I got tired of getting second fiddle gigs because there was interest in "a Hollywood guy". Now, that I'm a "Hollywood guy", I get that favoritism and I'm stoked about it. Though, it's definitely a sliding scale. Now, I compete with all "Hollywood guys" and I get second fiddle to the guys who have better credits than me ;)

My composing has become more refined since moving here because I've made concious changes based on information I've learned from experiencing the climate here, but my general approach and style have not changed much. I'm working on some top-flight projects now and I know that a lot of it is the direct result of this "percieved value".




In a lot of ways, I think that game development and some of the Rodriguez-styled film directors will force much of that attitude to fall by the wayside. As digital filmmaking and HDV take hold, the lines between different tiers of "notoriety" will likely fade. So I look at it as the glass being half-full. I'd like to think that I could build enough of a (good) reputation that I could live anywhere I want and still continue to work on worthwhile projects that pay well.

Nice optimism, but not likely. Hollywood is still and will likely always be the hub of entertainment decision making. If you're not in the mix making new contacts constantly, your client list that you leave LA with will ultimately phase out and you'll be out of the mix and left for dead. Hopefully, you'll have generated a royalty legacy that will pay out for your retirement because you're certainly not going to be establishing new relationships on a long-distance basis. I know you understand this.

Anyway, congratulations on your successes, Houston. I see you working hard for it and I'm glad to see it happening for you. I hope you're able to parlay this success into a consistant business for yourself.

Cheers,
Jamey

[Far_Unlit_Unknown]

Great discussion guys.


I have yet to experience a game that moved me emotionally. It's definitely a frontier that will be sought after soon and one that will take extreme boldness to succeed. I believe this is because emotion comes from the human experience and digital characters cannot express that unless it is a highly crafted and expressive animation. I'm not convinced that realtime digital characters will be able to do this in the near future though I would never be so shortsighted as to rule out the possibility. I worked on a movie with a digital character and sat in a theater with 80% of the audience in tears so I know that it can be done but doing it in realtime is another story altogether.

I view games as just another storytelling medium. Whenever you have any sort of discourse or narrative like those presented in films, books, and games, there is at least an opportunity for the expression of characterization, of thoughts and feelings, of catharsis. These are just some of what the 'human condition' is really all about. It's not about how many polygons go into crafting those digital projections on your TV screen, or how realistic a game character's hair appears. Before television and film took over, people were moved and inspired by oral storytelling, and then, eventually by the printed word. It was still a largely sensory experience because of the imagination processing it all.
I think your observations about the key differences between games and films are very accurate. And yes, a real live person is probably easier to relate to on a more visceral, emotional level. But I have been moved by some video games (mostly in the role-playing/adventure realm). You could probably say that 95% aren't anything special in the storytelling department, but hell, I would probably say the same is true of the film market anymore.
I also find games to be fascinating in that developers are always negotiating how much should be left up to the player and how much should be plotted out (linear Vs. non-linear gaming). Each approach has its own emotional pullstrings and taps into those vicarious, primal thrills in different and interesting ways (as well as presenting some unique music composition challenges and considerations).

[Houston Haynes]

I have yet to experience a game that moved me emotionally. It's definitely a frontier that will be sought after soon and one that will take extreme boldness to succeed. I believe this is because emotion comes from the human experience and digital characters cannot express that unless it is a highly crafted and expressive animation.

This is an excellent point. But I also think that it might be wrong-headed in perspective. (That's a polite way of saying that I agree with your starting point but disagree with where you take it) ;) I honestly don't think that there will ever be a completely satisfactory "film experience" in an interactive game, simply because they're two different types of user interaction and vastly different viewer perspectives. We've all seen video games go to film, and I think to a large degree the writing style for the composer has followed as well (Tomb Raider, anyone?) It's an aspect of the person living vicariously through another persona - enacting and reacting in ways that are "not possible in nature". But when we talk about the "film experience" (insert reference to Meryl Streep or Robert Redford here) we tend to seek out some aspect of ourselves in the characters in order to relate to them in some way. They're different experiences, different perspectives, different goals.

[i.e. I can't **wait** for the video game version of "On Golden Pond" to come out...] :D

So while there is an increasing overlap between the film and game genres (and therefore their audiences, and the economic factors that govern how they're made and with whom) I definitely see the amount of overlap as relatively limited in scope. This is traipsing precariously into "so what?" territory, as the parts where they "don't" overlap might be construed as of minimal economic importance - but I'm not entirely convinced of that, yet.

Just like everyone in my high school band really wanted to be a rock and roll star - so does every film composer want to do the next great action flick. I'm certainly no exception. That's where a lot of the excitement and a good share of the money lies. But if we're going to be honest about this subject, we've got to own up to the reality of lots of game going to film, as opposed to the other way around.

What this has to do with Howard Shore scoring a game, I'm not sure - it certainly seems like a "swimming upstream" effect to me. Perhaps he wants to try out new territory. Perhaps he has a cadre of game composers to ghost the in-play sequences while he scores the main theme and applies his name to it. Perhaps he knows the guys doing the game and likes them and thought it would be interesting and challenging - who knows? Whatever the case, whether this is an aberration or a sign of things to come (positive OR negative in the eyes of the game composer community at least) remains to be seen.

[His Frogness]

Whatever the case, whether this is an aberration or a sign of things to come (positive OR negative in the eyes of the game composer community at least) remains to be seen.

I have a hard time believing that this is a sign of things to come. It's true that game budgets are dramatically increasing, but this is more due to advances in technology requiring more programming and more content.

The bottom line is that even today's biggest game titles don't see more than $250,000 allocated to audio which exemplifies the huge discrepancy between Hollywood and games. If Shore is just farming this out to some underlings then that's another thing, but generally speaking the big time composers that actually have a name in film aren't going to sign on to a project that's all the work of a film but only 1/10th the pay.

Didn't Elfman do a game? I remember hearing something about him doing a game and deciding never to do another one again precisely because of the pay/work ratio.

Of course, most Hollywood composers aren't Elfman or Shore and $60-$120,000 is still good money, so it's expected that there will be a significant cross-over, just not much by the likes of Newman or Williams or any of the super-composers.

[His Frogness]

I have yet to experience a game that moved me emotionally. It's definitely a frontier that will be sought after soon and one that will take extreme boldness to succeed.

Cheers,
Jamey

Please forgive this shameless self-promotion but you should play Jade Empire on the Xbox. I was just one of the sound designers, Jack Wall did the score.

This game is one of my babies so I've been very active in the various forums and reading a lot of feedback. BioWare got a lot of praise for Kinights of the Old Republic. It won 45 GOTY awards and when you hear people talk about that game they don't talk about the action, they talk about the story. They're saying the same things about Jade Empire. Having been the one to add the audio to cutscenes (over 200 of them) there are some scenes that are just so emotive you may cry. And luckily, many people in the community have expressed the same thing, which is good cause it means I'm not just being a little pansy.

So, I'm glad I work at BioWare. They focus on story-driven RPGs which must be the best genre to allow for really emotional content.


If any of you do end up playing Jade Empire you should post your thoughts here somewhere ;)

[IOComposer]

I've not played either of the games you're suggesting, though if I find time in my schedule, I'll check them out.

In regard to emotional experience, I'm talking about moments that relate to the human experience which is hard to do in an action oriented medium like the majority of current games. Death is something that everyone can relate to and in real life is a very emotional subject. In games, death is about as valuable as the booger I just flicked onto the floor (I don't really pick my nose, I'm just using that as an example of insignificance! ;) )

How can we really associate ourselves with a significant dynamic when the dynamic has so little significance in context? On Golden Pond...very funny. Never saw it. But, when I think about the moments in movies that have choked me up or that have choked up my wife (who's an admittedly easy tear donor), they always have to do with loss, grief or the sweetness of human existence. The end of Monsters, Inc. comes to mind. Moments in Titanic that get me every time, etc. etc. I could name a large list but the thing is that these are the experiences that are etched in my brain and they make up my concept of entertainment based emotional experiences. I do know that if I'm playing a game and I've just slaughtered 250 insignificant beings, I doubt that I'm going to have any feeling for any one spotlighted character. I had the same problem with the LOTR movies. They were shoving the emotional cues down my throat for the main characters and yet they were bookended in scenes of insignificant slaughter and brutality. Of course, I can get caught up in the excitement and epic factor, but emotion? Sorry, but I just don't feel it.

This is where action games fail for me. I'll never have compassion for a character falling in love at the top of a mountain of bodies he's just slaughtered. There were moments in Myst3 that affected me in context, but I didn't mention that because I worked on it and it's impossible to be subjective on that kind of thing. I don't really play RPG games because of the time commitment so I can't speak of that potential. I think that if there were more games like the Myst games, we'd see a large influx of the female population driven to games but as we all know, gamers drive the economy of the industry and games like that seldom survive the economic climate. This is actually a sad subject for me because I had to help put to rest the adventure genre. The figures don't lie and if the non-violent, emotional games sell only 10% of the slaughter games, what justification is there to pursue the genre. The justification to me is that eventually, one will hit and that will open up a huge door to an entirely new and hungry demographic. It's a hard sell to those investors who lack vision and refuse to take a risk on the potential based on sales figures. This is why I say it's going to take some serious vision and extreme boldness to move games into this fertile territory.

To sum up, I would love to see games evolve into a very important and fulfilling aspect of our human existence. I'd love to see a day when instead of going to a movie on a date, we go and experience an equally effective and momorable form of entertainment that is interactive in nature and allows for the connection of people through an active, shared experience that requires thought and input rather than just sitting back and letting a movie dictate our experience for the evening. Whenever I go on a date with my wife, we love to see movies but we always feel like we wasted our time sitting down and watching a movie instead of doing something interactive like bowling or whatever. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a form of entertainment that could do all things? THAT is where I see the future of games going and I hope to be a part of it, if not the creator :)

At that point, composing for games will not be a step down for the big film composers, but a step up. But then again, the concept of adaptive music will by then be so complicated that it will be practically impossible for big linear film composers to cross over. Non-linear music takes a lot of work to sort out and there are no shortcuts; You either have your technical chops together or you don't. The way I look at it, writing a linear score is a no-brainer compared to a non-linear one and I think is ultimately going to be of less value. Not today of course, but if the evolution of entertainment is any indicator, it will be in the near future.

-Jamey

[John DeBorde]

To sum up, I would love to see games evolve into a very important and fulfilling aspect of our human existence. I'd love to see a day when instead of going to a movie on a date, we go and experience an equally effective and momorable form of entertainment that is interactive in nature and allows for the connection of people through an active, shared experience that requires thought and input rather than just sitting back and letting a movie dictate our experience for the evening.

-Jamey

Holo-deck anyone?

[re-engage geek cloking device...]

[IOComposer]

Holo-deck anyone?

[re-engage geek cloking device...]

Hmm... I guess it is possible to reinvent an uninvented wheel! ;)
-Jamey

[Jay Semerad]

Hi Jamey -

Just wondering if you had a chance to play some of the 2nd gen consoles or the like when you still considered yourself a "kid" - I'd say that there were a lot of old games that moved me emotionally for systems like the NES, Genesis, Sega CD (mainly ones with strong character dev or cutscenes such as Ninja Gaiden, Phantasy Star II, Lunar: The Silver Star) - but that's when i was young and susceptible to simpler plot devices and motifs. Now that I'm older and "jaded", it is indeed tougher to be moved - but think of all the young folks who probably get a deep emotional experience out of the newer titles! I hope kids are in tune with games in a way that we adults simply can't be.

In this world, I'd like to hope that this is true and that every kid isn't looking for a quick fix solution from boredom, but really thinks that the games are as "awesome" as I did when i was a kid.

Howard Shore did a great, emotional score for LOTR, and I think he'll probably bring that to his game, and that's a good thing in my book.

Maybe I'm a sap :)

Jay

[Far_Unlit_Unknown]

I know exactly where you are coming from Jay. I really miss those days when you could go for a ride a little bit easier than we do now. Granted, it's probably a good thing that as we grow so do our tastes and our sense of what is good art becomes more refined and sophisticated. Even as I extoll the virtues/vast potential of the gaming medium in my previous post, I have to admit that I don't play games nearly as often. Of course, part of that is just growing up and being more responsible, but sometimes I fear that after a while the cynicism and ironic distance of many of our peers inevitably rubs off and we become "jaded."

I remember Final Fantasy 6 (III) for the SNES was one game that had some touching moments. In particular, I remember watching the 20-mintue ending sequence with the medley of character theme songs and I remember that being one of those defining moments when I realized these funny, crude little games actually could be considered 'art.' I mean, it really took all 30-40 of those gameplay hours to get to that point, to achieve that emotion. Even with those little pixalated characters and a slightly 'kiddied up' script there were some genuinely humorous and moving segments for what is was.

I don't know that there's ever been a game that retained a heightened level of emotion throughout the whole production, but there is definitely vast room for improvement and I hope that is something that is continually strived for in the future.

[IOComposer]

Hi Jay.
Yes, you are a sap ;)
I guess I really didn't factor in the emotional responses of children because I was speaking from a legitimizing standard which is largely determined by adults. You do have a good point in that perceptions are shaped at a young age. Then of course, those kids grow up eventually...

I actually never had any of the second gen consoles. I graduated from Nintendo to computer games in that era. Didn't get back into consoles till the PS1, N64 era.
-Jamey

[Far_Unlit_Unknown]

In my experience, those 'adults' and many of the self-styled elitists outside the main gaming media would most likely be too condescending and jaded to recognize something special in the games world when it does come along (and I believe there have been a few minor victories along the way...some were on the 2nd gen consoles).

But then again, my sappy inner child is probably the one doing most the talking here :D

[Symbiotic]

I think that is a good point. Two games to reference to that end:

Katamari Damacy
Alien Hominid

Both wildly successful games. Both highly un-traditional. Many "adults" probably didn't "get it" when the games were being shopped around. Now those adults (aka "Publishers") are kicking themselves for not seeing beyond the "kid stuff"...

[IOComposer]

Funny that you should mention Alien Hominid.
I was working with Dan Paladin (aka Synj) on Whacked! when he was developing the little web game that eventually grew into the Alien Hominid PS2 game. We used to sit around the office and play his little flash game when we should have been playing Whacked! :)

Interesting that people didn't get his sense of humor on Whacked! but everyone flocks to Alien Hominid. I think its success has more to do with the endearing underdog story. Don't get me wrong, the game is brilliant and fun as hell to play but when analyzing its success, ya gotta wonder... It certainly isn't due to its emotional appeal! ;)
-Jamey

[Jay Semerad]

I bought Whacked! after you mentioned that you did the music for it.. I'd have to say the game play is pretty tight and it's fun to play, but something about the humor is very... Midway.. if you know what i mean? Maybe you can senes that it's adults trying their hand at juvenille humor, and are a bit out of touch. Some of the parts of the game were great, though, as in the Chicken battles where you were mobbed by 50 or so crazy chickens - hilarious.

The music was a lot of fun and entertaining too.
i should check out Alien Homonid I guess - i loved Katamari Damacy and was into that game since I played it at E3. (http://www.music4games.net/f_katamari_damacy.html)

Jay

[IOComposer]

Most of the humor in that game was Dan, who is a very unique guy. Of course the parts that weren't under his control were of course, probably a little trite. Though, you never think that of yourself when you're making the stuff ;)
If you haven't seen Dan's website already, check out Synj.net

Absolutely brilliant stuff! :)
-Jamey

[TNM]

Houston Haynes wrote.
"One company I was pursuing in Washington D.C. eventually told me that they liked my music, but they hired all of their composers "out of Hollywood". I kid you not."

Perhaps I should get an LA Post Office Box and Cell Number and just happen to always be out of town... .

[jchristopherson]

Well, who can blame Howard to want to make the transition into writing original game music. Hell, he has probably lost a good chunk of change to other composer who have had to emulate his style in LOTR videogames. :)

Jamie Christopherson
Music for Games, Film and TV

[lenmar]

If you think there are so many "just as good" composers just lying around the world then I'd have to argue that. If they're so great, why aren't they climbing the hill in Hollywood?

well let see, if I werea big time movie producer and I have the choice of hiring Howard shore or a lesser famous composer who may be just as good... mmm... who would I pick?

Most produces would probably pick howard shore simply because of his fame and his past records and hence the lesser famous composer who may be just as good goes back to scoring wedding videos and "aren't climbing the hill in Hollywood".

I agreed with Doyle that there's many MANY talented composers out there who are just as good, if not better, who never got their shot to prove themselves. Would howard shore be as famous as he is now if peter jackson didn't hire him to do LOTR? Would anyone think that John Debney could do an epic score like Passion of the Christ if Mel gibson didn't choose him to score that movie?

there are simply more supply than demand in this field, if you have a choice of taking a job or let a new guy who's just as good to get a shot at it, would you let him have it?

it's ridiculous to think that in this planet of trillion+ people only a selected few have real talent and the rest are "wannabes". :rolleyes: