How fast do you write?

[midphase]

I'm running a poll to see how fast people can compose orchestral music with their sample libraries.

The general consensus seems to be 1 minute of mixed music every 2 days. Is this realistic for big orchestral music? Do you write quicker than that? Slower? Keep in mind that I'm talking on the average and not when you're pulling an all-nighter for some crazy deadline or have this amazing and rare moments of inspiration and a whole symphony comes out in a matter of hours.

So what's your speed?

[JonP]

Difficult to state an average. Probably between a minute and three minutes a day if I want it properly polished.

[James W.G. Smith]

Well, do you mean 8 hours, because when I am working on a project I work about 14 hours a day, and can pump out at least 2 min. So with 8 I would say about 1 min. With really big action music (which to me is about the hardest stuff to write) I usually already have my themes set up with an earlier cue so they can go pretty quick. Don't you love it when a director calls and needs his/her 15min project scored in 6 hours though?

James W.G. Smith

[StrangeCat]

take me like 10 hours in one day to do the music, This is before I record tracks. I have been doing this classical string quartet for couple weeks(took me a week to compose the first movement) but finished a Classical Minimilist(spelling) in two days so it depends I guess.
Composing in Sibelius with just imputing notes in with mouse takes me a day to do huge Orchestration...But Cues are different there smaller pieces of music so like it could take half an hour to do orchestra cue... I think it could take all day depending on what the music is like 3 minutes or 2 minutes and polished 8 or 9 hours.

[Marcussen]

Really depends. I too find that action music takes damn long to compose. It also depends on if I'm scoring to video (which I find easier). As a rule of thumb I would say 1 minute a day. Sometimes more, sometimes less

[Daryl]

I think that this is really two questions. Firstly how fast can you compose and secondly how fast can you program.
In answer to the first part, I would expect to do up to 4 minutes a day, but if I was programming as well this would be likely to go down to about 2-3. Of course in the "old days" sample libraries were so much simpler to use that I could program almost as fast as I would be able to do a traditional score; not any more though :>(

Daryl

[Tomke]

As far as "how well done must it be to be let out of the computer" I'd say Good art is never finished, only abandoned. :p

I don't worry so much about however the realism is there or not. My idea is to demonstrate the musical coulors, form and feel of pulse and deliver it as demo MP3 and notation .. so on shorter projects I can go up to two or three songs (4 minutes) in full arrangement on one day. I do most of my work in the head and/or on paper before I sit down at my beloved Cubase, which speeds up the programming alot (for me).

What takes real time is when your original computer music will be used, where you need to tweak it so it sounds realistic. If I start doing that, then the tempo drops to max 2 minutes of music a day for shorter projects. And for longer projects (where normal sleep time becomes a priority) I'd say I top at 1 minute of music each day - in a very general average.

Then, of course, it is a matter of what kind of music and for what instrument setting, form, musical density, length, style, purpose, era etc. This makes it a very general answer indeed - not to mention the pace. In 10 minutes you might make 2 minutes of music if only a subtle string pad is needed ffor that amount of time. Then again, you might make 1 minute of music in 3 days if the density is really heavy.

[Andrew Aversa]

I regularly participate in competitions where you have one hour to compose a full piece of music (usually I end up with 1.5 to 2 minutes of music). It's really not too difficult.. being fast at the piano roll helps, though.

[Bela D Media]

This is a great topic. It has always amazed me to read about the amount of time (or lack of ) the film composer has to produce a score for the film. It seems that the music (a very important part of any film) is given the least amount of attention by the film producer. Its almost an after thought.

Why is that? Silent films did not do so well - I wonder why? ;)


I admire you guys big time. I could never deal with that pressure.

[imagegod]

So what's your speed?
Speed is defined as the distance traveled per time. Speed, per se, has very little to do with great artistic achievement.

If your goal is simply to move from one note to the next, then there's almost nothing to limit your speed.

If, on the other hand, your goal is to create great musical structure, then artistic speed, as the rate that one moves from desire to reality, is measured by an individual's passion and ability. The greater the passion/ability, the less time it takes.

Of course, without passion or ability, you have nothing but time.

[janila]

If your goal is simply to move from one note to the next, then there's almost nothing to limit your speed.

If, on the other hand, your goal is to create great musical structure, then artistic speed, as the rate that one moves from desire to reality, is measured by an individual's passion and ability. The greater the passion/ability, the less time it takes.It is a rare opportunity to have excessive time for a project. If you finish the last note before the deadline you will always spend time looking at the big picture and polishing details. This is a very relevant topic as the time constraints are usually given without consulting the composer and the composer has to know whether he/she can pull it off in the given time.

[midphase]

Well, part of what prompted me to ask the question is because I have to score 8 minutes of back to back, balls to the wall action orchestral music (mixed in surround no less) in about 5 days. This is while the video is still being tweaked which means that towards the end of the week I'll need to change all my timings to match the final cut. As fast as I generally consider myself, I do find the deadline for this particular type of project to be a bit unreasonable and I unfortunately have to say that I think the music quality is going to suffer.

My only hope is that the general noise level at E3 will mask my boo boo's and people won't pay too close attention to the music!

It seems like deadlines are getting tighter and tighter and I feel like the music is suffering. The days of looking for the right melodies and spending days experimenting with certain ideas and motifs seem to be gone for good.

This is particularly frustrating when dealing with a director who just spent months tweaking the edit of his feature, and now expects the score in about 2 weeks!!!

[imagegod]

It is a rare opportunity to have excessive time for a project.
My life is the embodiment of that rare opportunity...I spent 25 years writing 5 works of fiction (including 2 great screenplays) and I'll spend however long it takes to create great music for those screenplays.

I create my own deadlines and when the time is right, I'll finish my work and make my movie. MY movie.

Clearly, I've paid for this opportunity. And just as clearly, everyone who doesn't take responsibility for manifesting their own vision also pays a price.

It is in the choosing where differences are made! :D

[Mike Greene]

Well, part of what prompted me to ask the question is because I have to score 8 minutes of back to back, balls to the wall action orchestral music (mixed in surround no less) in about 5 days. This is while the video is still being tweaked which means that towards the end of the week I'll need to change all my timings to match the final cut. As fast as I generally consider myself, I do find the deadline for this particular type of project to be a bit unreasonable and I unfortunately have to say that I think the music quality is going to suffer.

My only hope is that the general noise level at E3 will mask my boo boo's and people won't pay too close attention to the music!

This looks like a job for Percussive Adventures (I don't dare say what company sells it!) For quick and dirty cinematic style work, it saves a lot of time because a cool percussion bed will be there and all you have to "write" are a few hits or some marcato line. This would make quick work of at least a minute or two of your 8 minutes.

Spectrasonics Atmosphere will definitely save some time for the low drones.

I don't think I could do 8 minutes of quality orchestral action music in 5 days. I'd have to find some shortcuts like PA or Atmosphere.

I've written long orchestral cues in under an hour but they sound like it! I'd say a minute per 8-10 hour day for action cues is about the best I could do for music I'd admit to.

- Mike Greene

[midphase]

None of that allowed on this one.....did I mention they want the music to sound like 50's horror/sci-fi?

If anyone is going to E3, they can check it out (although I'd prefer that they don't since it'll sound so rushed!)

[ikebrown]

right well im new to this but im just finishing college and the bulk of my work is scores for film/tv adds anyone know any good books on orchestration? and also drum programming because im no drummer and piss poor at it, i usually great weird loops with me sampler ta.

[josejherring]

This is where a good template comes in handy. That way you can sequence as you hear it.

For something like this I'll usually just bang out anything I hear in my head. I won't even do it to picure then when I got something that sounds like it's going to work and is fairly complete I'll then put it to picture. At that point it's just an editing job which you can do while tweeking your samples at the same time.

I've done about 2-4 min/day of pretty decent music using this approach. Also keeping orchestral voicings in your head is good too. That way when you bring up your trumpet patch you can just bang out a four note chords with proper voicing for that intant symphony. Works well for all brass instruments.

Oh, yeah. Do forget to paste for doublings. Just make sure you quatize the parts slightly different or leave one or two parts unquantized.

You'd be amazed at how fast and clever you get when you're under the gun.

And, I never do all nighters any more. I try to get at least 4hours sleep. That way I can go even faster. Nothing slows you down like lack of sleep.

Cheers,

Jose

[Jamie_H]

I just completed work on a feature film, and to make the deadlines I had to write about 3-5 minutes of finished music a day. I think most professional film composers say they try to write about that much a day. I don't think there are many that can do much more than 5 minutes in a day, though I'm sure there are exceptions.

[Mike Greene]

I just completed work on a feature film, and to make the deadlines I had to write about 3-5 minutes of finished music a day. I think most professional film composers say they try to write about that much a day. I don't think there are many that can do much more than 5 minutes in a day, though I'm sure there are exceptions.
I think Kays is talking about a different situation though. Most of us can do 3-5 minutes a day as long as a lot of it is simple. Once I had four and a half days to do a pilot with 42 minutes of music including the theme. But it was doable because it was mostly spooky techno stuff (although this was before Atmosphere, so it wasn't THAT easy! ;) ).

But if it's mostly action orchestral music and you have to do the final version yourself all on synths, things slow down considerably.

- Mike Greene

[belbin]

I read an interview with danny elfman (before all the great sampling tech came along) in which he said that as a film composer, he HAD to be able to write 2 minutes of music a day. Of course, he had an orchestrator. I guess what you guys are talking about is writing and producing it entirely yourself....

In any case, I think that 5 min of action cues a day is very impressive, having done only a couple of shorts (10 min or so), and having to spend much more on average per minute of content produced.

Nice output!

Belbin

[donimon]

I agree with everyone else that some music is much easier to write than others, so minutes per day is kind of vague. However, I think that the amount can vary depending on a deadline. Deadlines and desperation have a way of speeding up your internal clock and making you somehow finish things right on time. On the flipside, if you have more time on a project, things can slow down considerably since you don't have that looming deadline. Somehow, I always find myself in a mad scramble the day before a dub trying to get done, and that doesn't matter if I had 2 months or 2 days to write it. Everytime I try to write more one day to get ahead of the game, I'll get stuck on a 20 second cue that takes 6 hours the next day, so it all seems to work out in the end..... In fact, when I try to map out how much I have to write per day, I don't look at the legnth of cues as much as the amount of cues - if I've got 20 cues to write and 4 days, I've got to do 5 per day to stay on schedule. Some are longer, some shorter, but it all seems to balance itself out most of the time....

[midphase]

It's funny thinking that when I was at Berklee we were given an entire semester to score a 10 minute film!!!

Then again, back then we didn't have access to all of the cool tools!

Wow, I feel old now! Back to music.

[Jamie_H]

I think Kays is talking about a different situation though. Most of us can do 3-5 minutes a day as long as a lot of it is simple. Once I had four and a half days to do a pilot with 42 minutes of music including the theme. But it was doable because it was mostly spooky techno stuff (although this was before Atmosphere, so it wasn't THAT easy! ;) ).

But if it's mostly action orchestral music and you have to do the final version yourself all on synths, things slow down considerably.

- Mike Greene

I was doing all orchestral music, but you are right, it wasn't all action stuff. The action cues went slower--I probably only got 2-2:30 a day when it was a heavy action cue. That just meant that I had to output 5-6 minutes a day when I was working on the easier stuff. :)

The biggest problem I saw is that he mentioned that they were still editing the film. The biggest nightmare is writing to a non-locked picture. In general I tell my clients that I won't work without a locked picture, or at least a 99% locked picture. A good chunk of time is spent timing stuff out right--if they are going to change stuff then you waste a ton of time timing it out right to begin with and then having to edit it later.

[JonFairhurst]

I was doing all orchestral music, but you are right, it wasn't all action stuff. The action cues went slower--I probably only got 2-2:30 a day when it was a heavy action cue. That just meant that I had to output 5-6 minutes a day when I was working on the easier stuff. :)

Aside from the faster tempo, is there a reason that people find action music slower to write? A lot of action music is ostinatos and hits, which isn't all that complex - just dense and fast.

I find that trying to do tighter counterpoint, unique chords, scales and voicings is what slows me down to a crawl. If I allow myself to be more derivative, I can write faster, but I'm not as proud of that work.


The biggest problem I saw is that he mentioned that they were still editing the film. The biggest nightmare is writing to a non-locked picture. In general I tell my clients that I won't work without a locked picture, or at least a 99% locked picture. A good chunk of time is spent timing stuff out right--if they are going to change stuff then you waste a ton of time timing it out right to begin with and then having to edit it later.

Absolutely! I was going to score a short, 3d animated student film, and I insisted that the edits be done before I started the real score. I did, however, do some short style tests to make sure that we were communicating.

The student/director asked for some noir music with trumpets, so I did a few bars of cool, slow, edgy jazz with brushes and QLB. No, that was too cliche. Next I listened to the scores from Touch of Evil (Mancini) and Chinatown (Goldsmith), did a few bars referencing those styles, and it wasn't right either. Next he sent me a short clip of his temp music - it was all synth pads! I ended up doing pads with woodwinds and that hit the mark. It had nothing to do with noir and trumpets though!

Anyway, I found it helpful to do a few bars of example music to get on the same page, but was firm that the real composition wouldn't start until the editing was done. Good thing too. He had pushed everything to the last minute, then had a hard drive (or personal?) meltdown, and the animation was never delivered.

The experience gave me a chance to explore some new styles, but I avoided wasting my time on a dead project.

Each example piece was about a minute long and each was completed in an evening. None were dense or orchestral, but I did finished mixes, rendered and uploaded for review before going to bed at around 12:00 or 1:00.

-JF

[Marcussen]

Action music is slower per minute, because its more notes per minute. For me anyway :)

[John DeBorde]

chiming in a little late here, but i find the speed i write at depends a lot on where i am in the project. things can move slowly at first, but once i have my themes/concepts/templates developed, i can start blowing throw cues pretty quickly.

and in general i would agree with most everything that has been said here.

the film i just finished was a nightmare in terms of the schedule getting backed up. i attempted to insist on having locked picture (knowing how futile this was in concept) but pretty quickly realized i'd better start writing or else there wasn't going to be a score. i was sposed to have locked picture several weeks out, but didn't actually get it until about 48hours before i had to deliver the score. to make matters worse, they were so busy trying to lock the picture i only had gotten 1 cue approved by that time. i finally started getting cues approved at 5pm the day before music delivery. i was getting emails with change requests, making changes and firing back mp3s for approval. i finally got the last cue approved at 12:30, so at least i avoided an all niter. mix?-what mix? no time for any real mixing here! make sure there's nothing too agriegous and move on - next! (sorry for the run-on paragraph, but i felt that best encapsulated the frenetic pace of this gig!)

this was all for a festival screening, so hopefully i'll get a chance to remix and tweak a few things before the film goes out for distribution.

phwew! good to get that off my chest!

so Kays, i would say try to budget the last 2 days for conforming to picture and mixing, and hope that you get locked picture by the morning of the last day! (but you knew that already, i bet). maybe try to get them to commit to some parts of the picture being locked if not the whole thing.

congrats on the gig and good luck, and you'll be lucky if anyone can even tell there is music in the video at e3! see you there...

/john

[Jamie_H]

Aside from the faster tempo, is there a reason that people find action music slower to write? A lot of action music is ostinatos and hits, which isn't all that complex - just dense and fast.

Well, when I write action music, even when I use ostenatos, I still usually attempt to keep the music thematic to a point. And trying to get recognizable bits and pieces of themes into an uptempo scene that has lots of cuts in it takes a lot more time than laying out a theme over a long stretch in a non-action scene.

It also depends on the style and how many things you are trying to catch. If you are just laying down a bed to give the action scene a feel (like the techno music used during the huge gun battle in The Matrix) then yeah, it probably doesn't take any more time. But if you are catching a lot of what is going on in the scene (like the truck chase from Raiders of the Lost Ark) then it is really time consuming. I know personally that in an action scene, I tend to make a large number of very small tempo changes to get things to line up. Just figuring those out can be time consuming.

[midphase]

i was sposed to have locked picture several weeks out, but didn't actually get it until about 48hours before i had to deliver the score. to make matters worse, they were so busy trying to lock the picture i only had gotten 1 cue approved by that time.

Wow John,

That sounds much worse than my project! When the schedule is that tight, I usually tell the client that there's not a whole lot to approve or tweak. They get what they get because there's simply not any time left for anything else.

James Newton-Howard has been voicing his concern on the incredible shrinking deadlines. He has actually turned down some high-end films because he simply refused to compose a full score on such a short notice. Of course in his position it's a lot easier to turn down work (him being a millionaire and all).

[thesoundsmith]

I have to score 8 minutes of back to back, balls to the wall action orchestral music (mixed in surround no less) in about 5 days. Then what are you doing sitting around pounding posts on your computer? GET TO WORK!!! :D

[josejherring]

else.

James Newton-Howard has been voicing his concern on the incredible shrinking deadlines. He has actually turned down some high-end films because he simply refused to compose a full score on such a short notice. Of course in his position it's a lot easier to turn down work (him being a millionaire and all).

Yeah, true. Remember in the day he was scarfing up what ever work he could get his hands on. Many, many moons ago that is.

[kid-surf]

Different perspective ---------->



It's interesting how the screenwriter gets 12 weeks to write the "1st draft" of the script. Then has a few weeks to "kick it" while the studio looks it over and thinks of their notes. Then they get another 6 weeks for the "2nd draft". Basically they're getting like 5 months to think about their work/create it.............. and all they have to do is friggn "type words" then press save.


Compare that to what a composer has to do..... my god?


I think it's pretty dumb of ALL OF US to act like this is some sort of badge of honor to be treated like sh!t. We think it's cool to have to stay up all dang night to get something done. Like that's some sort of accomplishment. (while my screenwriter buddy is sitting on the sand of his malibu beach house writing his script.... "go take the dog for a walk, hit the jacuzzi", that sorta thing)

Maybe if every composer demanded "one" friggn more day to work.... industry wide. Maybe we could someday gain some respect for the time it takes to create something 'good'.


But i know that will never happen because composers relish the fact that they can write fast, it's a race. And well.... there's no way out of this race because of a friggn release date that CAN'T be moved.


I just think it's interesting that so many composers relish the fact that they can write fast..... Imagine if we didn't have to write "as" fast. But I think it's an ego thing. Composers want to feel better than the next guy, they want to feel like "they" can handle the stress more than the next guy. It's all pretty stupid if you ask me...... but it's the game, so let's play.



KID

[midphase]

I soooo totally agree with everything you just said!


Just to update you guys, it's wed. and I'm at minute 6 so things ain't so bad afterall!

[John DeBorde]

well, personally, i don't really like to write under pressure - it takes a lot of the fun out of it if you ask me. i will say that i have done some of my best work under pretty extreme deadlines, but certainly not all of it.

and i intended my post to read more as a plea for sympathy than bragging about how fast i can write. it certainly wasn't fun while i was going thru it.

i'd gladly accept less pressured deadlines, but on this project i knew i could walk at any time, and another composer would eagerly take my place.

that sux, but that's just how it is. i'd love to see more composer solidarity (fees anyone?- i had people trying to undercut me AFTER i had already started the job), but composing is so competitive right now, i don't think it's going to change anytime soon. sad but true...

on a more positive note: Way to go Kays!!!

/john

[JonFairhurst]

Well, when I write action music, even when I use ostenatos, I still usually attempt to keep the music thematic to a point. And trying to get recognizable bits and pieces of themes into an uptempo scene that has lots of cuts in it takes a lot more time than laying out a theme over a long stretch in a non-action scene.

It also depends on the style and how many things you are trying to catch. If you are just laying down a bed to give the action scene a feel (like the techno music used during the huge gun battle in The Matrix) then yeah, it probably doesn't take any more time. But if you are catching a lot of what is going on in the scene (like the truck chase from Raiders of the Lost Ark) then it is really time consuming. I know personally that in an action scene, I tend to make a large number of very small tempo changes to get things to line up. Just figuring those out can be time consuming.Hi Jamie,

I was definitely thinking "The Matrix" and mood beds when I wrote about action music being ostinatos and hits. I'll have to check out the Raiders scene you mention.

I've done some "cartooning" and I know what you mean about the time it takes to work out detailed tempo changes. It's not only the tempo changes, but trying to figure out how to best lay in a five or seven beat bar to get things to line up.

I guess the other thing to consider is the time to do really fast runs, which I avoid, since I simply can't pull those off with my sample collection. I'd love to be able to though!

-JF

[jkerr]

Hey Midphase,

can you say what the 8 minute demo is to so I can listen for it - or is it in an nda until the show?

Jonathan

[Robert Kral]

I need to write about 5 minutes a day (compose, perform, mix FINISH COMPLETELY) for the TV shows I've worked on. Sometimes I can get away with a little less, and sometimes I need to do much more. When I say NEED to, if I don't, I'm fired!!!

That's kind of how it is in Hollywood. You can't ask for an extra day, simple as that.

I say this to make everyone aware that about 5 mins a day is actually expected in the TV industry, sometimes more, for midi production.

One of the most intense weeks (and remember this is with flat out work for months either side of this experience) was 38 minutes in 4.5 days. I had to do about 8 mins or so per day to meet the deadline. I did not have an assistant or any help from other composers. It turned out to be one of my very favorite scores. You can hear it on the "Darla" episode of Angel, season 2. It was a big one!!

[Jamie_H]

Kid, I certainly wasn't trying to brag about how much I can write a day--I was just stating a fact about how much I had to output to make deadlines. I think Robert summed it up pretty much. Pro film/TV composers in LA are EXPECTED to churn out about 5 minutes a day. It may suck, but that is just the unfortunate reality of schedules.

[midphase]

That's kind of how it is in Hollywood. You can't ask for an extra day, simple as that.

I say this to make everyone aware that about 5 mins a day is actually expected in the TV industry, sometimes more, for midi production.

I think that ghost writing is rampant in TV production (especially in Hollywood). This might not be the case with you but I assure you that it is a huge factor for a lot of composers. Also, there are many composers who will sketch out some basic tracks and then hand it off to an assistant to make it sound "cool"

I'm not saying that this always happens, obviously you are an example that it does not, but I am saying that the more unreasonable the deadlines get, the more composers will seek assistance to actually pull it off and not get fired.

I do feel that as a general rule of thumb, quality goes down the drain when a certain amount of music is exceeded. A couple of years ago I scored a 1 hour documentary for PBS in about a week (about 30 min of music). I think it's some of the most horrible work I've ever done....ironically enough, it won an Emmy!

[Mike Greene]

I think that ghost writing is rampant in TV production (especially in Hollywood). This might not be the case with you but I assure you that it is a huge factor for a lot of composers. Also, there are many composers who will sketch out some basic tracks and then hand it off to an assistant to make it sound "cool"
Yep. Even here, I have two assistants every day doing exactly that, and I ain't exactly "big time."

- Mike Greene

[kid-surf]

Robert / Jamie H--- yeah I get that in TV, you have a hard deadline, or you'll be fired. I really don't see where the time would come from on either end (of the week) it's how it is. I'm referring to film were everyone else can go past their deadline except the composer.

But yes I know you can't simply "ask" for an extra day in film or TV, you won't get it. Of course not. So no I'm not under the false impression that you can actually change anything. Obviously not. There's always gonna be a composer that will "pull it off". So the studios (by now) know what's possible. Yet writers say "we need 18 weeks for first draft". And their agents get them that. Do they "really" need that much time. Not IMO. 18 weeks for a sketch?


I just find it very amusing that composers hold our "craft" up to such a high level of, well, sort of "honor" amongst ourself. Yet composers unless you're a top dog aren't really treated very well in Hollywood.


The industry sends a clear message that they don't value music, and if they do say it it's pretty much lip service IMO. They'll spend 3 friggn YEARS getting a script right then want the music in 2 weeks. That's all I'm say'n.... the "balance" seems a little off to me.


I think it's stupid so I'm venting about to other "composers". I wouldn't walk into some meeting and say "I think you guys are fools and I'd need 5 months to write anything halfways good because I can't handle the pressures of Hollywood". No.... I wouldn't do that. My plan has always been agree to whatever and figure it out later.... (sorta like an agent ;) )

I also get a kick out of how some composers (newer composers such as my self) look at hollywood like it's fine art. Yet CAA will drag some dude in from the mid west turn him into a mega star then get his rate up to a few mill a flick almost overnight. Last year he was doing dinner-house theater in Iowa. Didn't start acting till he was 23. The composer on his "first" film has done 30 films.... and is getting paid 1/8 of what that kid is.

It's just amusing to me is all............ I'm still playing the game though, and with a smile. :) Believe me I'm on good behavior in front of anyone important.



I like to ramble.... have a good day you guys. ;)


KID

[Houston Haynes]

Robert / Jamie H--- yeah I get that in TV, you have a hard deadline, or you'll be fired.

[SNIP]

I just find it very amusing that composers hold our "craft" up to such a high level of, well, sort of "honor" amongst ourself. Yet composers unless you're a top dog aren't really treated very well in Hollywood.

The industry sends a clear message that they don't value music, and if they do say it it's pretty much lip service IMO. They'll spend 3 friggn YEARS getting a script right then want the music in 2 weeks. That's all I'm say'n.... the "balance" seems a little off to me.

[SNIP]



Well - I agree with you in large part, to the point of being tempted to simply reply to this thread with a coy hip-hop "WORD!" and be done with it, but I can't resist rambling a bit myself... ;)

From my perspective, the world of screenwriting and music for film is not so different. My wife's a writer, and she's caught a LOT more heat for a horror script that she turned out in two weeks than the tentpole thriller action script she researched for a year before sitting down at the computer to type the first word. In the same way, I'm getting a lot more additional scoring assignments for the pop knock-off stuff I've done compared to the orchestral writing that took years of diligence to hone and craft. In the business we call that "ironic". :p

Then again, the world of screenwriting is more complex, as a good writer will get called in to flesh out a story or "doctor" a script with a great deal of lead time to the point of putting a production in "turnaround" and delaying the release of the film -- and there's almost no such equivalent for the music. [think of the replacement for Yared's score for "Troy" and we will all collectively **shudder** together...] I think that's possible simply because of the nature of film production, and not the perceived value of the contributers, per se. When the script is being doctored, not much of the money has been spent. When the score is being written (or replaced) almost all of the money is gone -- and in the larger films it's under particular scrutiny because of budget overages, etc.

It's just like being in the quality assurance department of a large software company... something goes wrong when the product goes live and they berate the QA department - not the systems analysts that never described the product properly - not the developers who never coded it properly - not the project managers who haven't a clue what anyone is doing - and certainly not the business unit who was off playing golf the entire time and only got involved the Monday after the product went live and fell down in production... not that it's ever happened to me personally...

We all like to think that we're the most important part of the project, and that if we were not there to protect the other parties from themselves that it would all fall apart. The problem is that even though everyone in a production is necessary - and it all would fall apart if any major component was missing, there certainly is a disparity in the way the various role-players are perceived, and that's exaggerated in the television portion of the business, for sure.

[RobbinsEgg]

The best thing that can possibly happen - and unfortunately it's all too rare - is getting involved with a project early on. Some more foresighted directors realize the importance of music in their films and hire someone during production or eben earlier. It's unbelievably great when it happens, but it's rare. So far, I've had that fortune a few times in my career and it's priceless. It's amazing how the extra time allows for development of music that truly becomes an inseparable character in the movie.

That being said, it's not the case on my current project, the dreaded action picture. It calls for 75 minutes of music which I had to write, arrange and program in about 3 weeks, then edits and changes, tweaking and re-writes for another 2 weeks. And I just can't allow myself to short change anything. When your finished product goes out there, you can't pull it back, or say "if I only had more time......" It has to shine and be something you're proud of.

Ya ever get that feeling in the pit of your stomach?

[Nick Batzdorf]

My answer to the question: I write 0 minutes a day until I have a deadline. Then the amount of music I write depends on the deadline. :)

[Maraxalamanta]

I think this is bordering on whining.. I find that there's still a great deal of reasonably well paying work out there, with decent deadlines. As a media composer you need certain chops in the first place. Speed is definitely one of them. Bragging about how many minutes of music you can do a day doesn't do anyone any good, but the fact that a composer is able to churn out relatively good music in a short period of time without exhausting himself completely is just proof of his expertise. Nothing else. He may not be the best composer in the world, but the industry isn't looking for that. Most of the time they're looking for the music equivalent of the coffee-guy. Someone who can make them OK coffee consistently on time every day for the remainder of the production time. They expect you to deliver the music because you claim to be a media composer. They don't care what it takes for you to get there, even if it means using loops. This is the very reason many of you people are getting work in the first place! The brutal truth is that you are funded by the very lack of high quality music demand. I'm sure most of you would agree that even if you were given 3 months to write 60 minutes of music, it wouldn't exactly be John Williams material. The few people who have this gift wouldn't have any problems churning out those 60 minutes in a much shorter time anyway. Elliot Goldenthal said it best:

Excerpt from Interview

"Elliot is somewhat unusual in that he likes a short deadline. With rather absurd modesty he stated: “I’ve discovered that I don’t have that much talent, really. If I work on something for ten years or three weeks it’s not going to make a difference. It’s not going to get any better. No matter how many years I work on something I’m never going to get to Beethoven’s level.”

This is true for most people I think. Composing is a constant creative process that, for a skilled craftsman, doesn't really slow down or speed up depending on the nature of the music that is being written. The more theory you are able to feed your mind with, the more creative you can be. The true potential of a composer lies in combined knowledge and the instant creative process. This is how a composer like John Williams is able to write action cues that just go on and on without a break in the wall - without repeating himself a lot.

However, to pull off this you need technical expertise more than anything else. You cannot rely on a sturdy creative flow. Come writers block and you'll be helpless. You need to know exactly what to do in any given situation, to know your music theory inside out, to know your orchestration theory inside and out, to know your software inside and out. There's hardly time for experimentation and hesitation is not an option. What you improvise becomes the final product. This is just the nature of the beast and I doubt it'll ever change. Some people actually like work like this. They are the ones who have enough experience and knowledge to effectively fill such a position. Few are actually fit for these jobs. You can be a great composer with great creative ideas etc. but because you do not know the logic and theory behind your creations you cannot rely on your ability to replicate certain things when need be. Refined technical knowledge (essentially the very essence of your craft) in the form of orchestration, harmony, counterpoint and so on, combined with natural scoring sensibilities like pacing, flow, instrumentation and dynamics are all aspects that separates the professional hobbyist from the professional craftsman. Many of the people struggling with a 3+ mins a day output fall into the former category.

Just like there are producers and directors who couldn't care less about music, there are also those who really value high quality music and take this into account when they are planning the production. As a media composer with work for hire you're seldom presented with a schedule that allows time for artistic perfection (let alone artistic execution), and it's usually not expected either. In the few and rare cases it is, it's usually a collaboration between devoted friends and colleagues who have known each other from the beginning of the project. Perhaps not the reality you hoped for when you were growing up to scores like Star Wars and Indiana Jones. It appears that some people are a bit too driven by fame and fortune rather than passion for their art & craft. These people may reach their goals, but the attitude isn't likely to gain too many of their peers respect.

[bruceup]

I'm with Nick on this one. The speed of my writing is in direct proportion to how close a deadline is. My only two motivations anymore are deadlines and down payments, I have a hard time getting started without one or both. I find the longer I do this media music thing, the faster I work, but the worse I am at putting off starting projects. Programming slows the process down, but I love the instant gratification that programming affords you (for you youngsters out there, this used to all happen with framecounts, pencil and scorepad). Also, the hunger's not there like it was when I was new to the biz, so that slows me down as well (I don't do all-nighters anymore). I've also learned to let go of things and not to obsess over them, that's my key to being prolific. Spit out an idea and move on. There are a million ways to do any one thing, one is all I need.

[Looper]

The other side of the coin is that if you are given additional time to write (say 3 months instead of 3 weeks), you'll still be paid the same amount. So there is an upside to short deadlines (do more jobs=make more money).

[Tomke]

Maraxalamanta:
I don't like some of these statements. I do agree with some, but I sense traces of right-wing ideas - almost Darwinistic ideas. One of the aspects of life that all people struggle with, is the simple fact that if we do not use emotion, desire, feeling, and opinion .. but just rely upon cold intellect and not complain and simply just does what it takes, then this world would be much better off and we would be much more efficient and self-preserving as organisms. But I don't think we are machines, we are humans, with rather paradoxal needs - sometimes almost consuming needs. The struggle of a balance between "shut up and do what is needed" but also getting our other needs - naive emotional needs - satisfied along the way is very delicate balance. The more emotional people - very much artistic people - strive much more to the emotional aspect ways of doing things rather than the hard-headed way.

What you wrote is more towards "shut ut, do what is required or face reality". It almost sounds very much as you've had to go through a very difficult and painful process to adapt to something you initially didn't like, and now - when you possibly got the hang of it - gets intimidated by people that thinks that the effort you suffered is unfair to them, and not satisfying peoples other needs - needs such as being able to enjoy what they do while doing it, which is not possible from this perspective you have described. It sounds as if you're saying "If I took this, why shouldn't the others have to as well?" .. you know.

Just a feeling I get, from reading statements like: "This is just the nature of the beast and .. it'll never change." and ".. hesitation is not an option".

You also wrote "the fact that a composer is able to churn out relatively good music in a short period of time without exhausting himself .. is just proof of his expertise. Nothing else. He may not be the best composer in the world, but the industry isn't looking for that. Most of the time they're looking for the music equivalent of the coffee-guy."
I wouldn't agree with churning out good music in a short time is a due to expertise - that is rather due to the attitude "working smart", and working smart is not the same thing as enjoying ones work while doing it. However, I do agree that the industry (market economy / capitalism) is "looking for the music equivalent of the coffee-guy" unless they can make more money off of anything over that. Just refer to Midphase's story with his work winning an Emmy, above.

I also oppose a bit towards the idea that a composer is a "craftsman". While making the music come to life does contain a certain amount of craft, the basic thing that the composer wants to do is rather art, than craft; Art meaning expressing ones own opinion for the sake of doing it. 'Craft' means doing something in repeating manner to perfect it.

Finally, you mention creativity alot, which I think is essential of embodying one's own opinion and voice in the form of art. So I agree with that. But then you made a 180 degree turn, and wrote:
"You need to know exactly what to do in any given situation..". Now, where is the room for creativity in that?

I disagree with some things here, and I - speaking for myself - is more interested in trying to create a comfortable working environment for myself as well as for the "employers" - and not only for them. I want room for myself to enjoy my work in terms of listening to it and feeling at least more than 50% content and happy with it - rather than valuing by the amount of money I made from it, the amount of public attention it got me or how many jobs I got offered from doing it.

So, this is not whining, this is complaining. This idea of "Do what the conditions require or face the consequences" is not a very pleasant environment to live one's life in, I think. :o

[kid-surf]

The other side of the coin is that if you are given additional time to write (say 3 months instead of 3 weeks), you'll still be paid the same amount. So there is an upside to short deadlines (do more jobs=make more money).


Good point..... ;)


KID

[Brian W. Ralston]

While making the music come to life does contain a certain amount of craft, the basic thing that the composer wants to do is rather art, than craft; Art meaning expressing ones own opinion for the sake of doing it.

Tomke...The business of writing music for film is just that...a business. There is a difference in being a film composer here and being a "classical" composer. It is like the difference between independant films and the Hollywood Blockbusters. Some independant features are made by writers/directors/producers for the "art" of it. Some find a niche market to sell their film and others don't and could care less. It is not about the business of making a profitable film. But for the bulk of movies made, studios, TV networks, etc...could care less about the "art" of a film or series. They make it for the money. Unfortunate but true. Film/TV composers who want to make it in this biz need to come to terms with that fact or the road will not be an enjoyable one. The composer is writing music to serve the picture. He is on a deadline which is determined by many business factors, all geared towards making the most amount of money on the film. If the composer can not produce the amount and quality of work in the specified time, someone else will. Everyone in this biz is replaceable. And I mean EVERYONE. So, you have to play by their rules. The producers/studios/directors, etc...

If they want the music changed last minute, if they re-edit the film after "picture lock"...if they give the composer 4 weeks instead of 6 because the release date was modified to occur on a better weekend...so be it. The nature of music being written at the end of a project inherently means that time will always be a factor. Release dates rarely change. They were chosen for a purpose.

I guess I have just seen a few people's careers take a down turn because they have looked at their film music as being their "art" and their masterpieces. It's not. It is a work made for hire...controlled by many factors that have nothing to do with music...and if someone's score happens to fullfill both the business and artistic needs of a film...that is a wonderful thing. But don't count on it. :)

[midphase]

Everyone in this biz is replaceable. And I mean EVERYONE. So, you have to play by their rules. The producers/studios/directors, etc...

Actually....that would be everyone except unionized teamsters!

Composers don't have unions, we're too busy trying to screw each other over 'cause we're all soooooo freakkin' desperate!!! :eek:

[Tomke]

... for the bulk of movies made, studios, TV networks, etc...could care less about the "art" of a film or series. They make it for the money. Unfortunate but true. /../ If the composer can not produce the amount and quality of work in the specified time, someone else will. Everyone in this biz is replaceable. So, you have to play by their rules.
Recently My father hired a brick layer to build a brick wall chimney on his weekend cottage. He asked the guy how much time it would take to finish the work, and the bricklayer said Not more than 4 days. This was what dad had expected, as was the cost, so this was conveniant for him too in that sense.
Now, "the work" and all aspects about it was up to the guy to do. Why? because he knows better than my father what is needed from a chimney in the long run, and the work process of building one. But if my father would've had the same financial hunger as the greedy corporations, he wouldn't have hired anyone. He would have taken a plain metal pipe and stuck it down through the roof and that was it. Not very functional, not very pretty to look at and not a long-lived solution - only functional for the time being.

I miss this mutual understanding in the music buisness. As you say, they are in it for the money, they don't care about the quality of it as long as their wallets get fat. But that's going too far according to me. I don't enjoy blockbusters very much, since they are just as delicate as a McDonalds Happy Meal.

Some say I want utopia while some find more support in the idea of that the world (or the buisness) works like we make it to work. I mean, saying "sad but true" doesn't convince very much, since if one is accepting it one is pretty much supporting it too. Saying "sad" while at the same time supporting it doesn't rhyme very well :)

[-Ed]

I regularly participate in competitions where you have one hour to compose a full piece of music (usually I end up with 1.5 to 2 minutes of music). It's really not too difficult.. being fast at the piano roll helps, though.

I know that goes on for dance music, but orchestral music really?

Ed

[Bruce A. Richardson]

This is one reason, I think, that you meet so many jazz/studio players in this business.

[JonFairhurst]

This is one reason, I think, that you meet so many jazz/studio players in this business.

I'm not surprised.

Recently my son put together a film that was a string of interviews for the high school Mother/Senior tea. ("I love you, Mom"; "Mom, you rock"; "Thanks for taking me to soccer"; You get the picture.) My son had one night to finish it, and planned to rip some commercial music (grrr), but couldn't find anything that fit.

I set up a piano/string stack and improvised for four minutes in a "You Are So Beautiful" kind of style. I consciously kept it dirt simple and took no risks. I got it done in one take with no clunkers. Four minutes of music in four minutes.

And it worked. My wife attended the next day and said that there were tears all around.

But I'm no great player. When I do something more interesting, detailed, complex or polished, it needs lots of takes and lots of scrubbing. If I had better chops (and belive me, my chops can use improvement), I could definitely produce more music of higher quality in a shorter time.

But if anything, I'm with Nick. Hard deadlines make for more minutes of music per day.

-JF

[John DeBorde]

I set up a piano/string stack and improvised for four minutes in a "You Are So Beautiful" kind of style. I consciously kept it dirt simple and took no risks. I got it done in one take with no clunkers. Four minutes of music in four minutes.


-JF

that's an efficient use of your time! i spose you could have cranked up the tempo on your sequencer and banged something out in 2-3 minutes, then slowed it down to get your 4 minutes, but that's just silly.

well done man!

[Daryl]

i spose you could have cranked up the tempo on your sequencer and banged something out in 2-3 minutes, then slowed it down to get your 4 minutes, but that's just silly.

well done man!

Funny thing is that my highest earning track took less time to compose AND program than it does to play...!

Daryl

[Mike Greene]

i spose you could have cranked up the tempo on your sequencer and banged something out in 2-3 minutes, then slowed it down to get your 4 minutes
Oooh, I like that! And did he really need to play the whole piece? Why not play half and copy and paste. Now we're down to a little over a minute! :D

- Mike Greene

[Mike Greene]

Funny thing is that my highest earning track took less time to compose AND program than it does to play...!

Daryl
You can't leave us with that, Daryl! Do tell! :)

- Mike Greene

[Daryl]

You can't leave us with that, Daryl! Do tell! :)

- Mike Greene

Oh alright then.

Piano ostinato with minimal chord changes (copy & paste a few times)
Sequencer cranked up to maximum
Busk string parts on one track.
Mod-wheel dynamics
Copy and paste respective lines to correct instruments.
Bounce to disc

All in under 3 minutes.

The sad part about all this is that the tracks that I've spend days crafting have often made nothing at all :>(( Maybe there's a lesson there for me....

Daryl

[JonP]

The sad part about all this is that the tracks that I've spend days crafting have often made nothing at all

Oh Man....that rings too true. An awful lot of the stuff I've made a living from has taken less time to put together than a good nut scratch and I'd HATE to admit I wrote it. Still, got to pay the bills.

[John DeBorde]

well, i scored a Scoobie Doo promo once in under 15 minutes.

i got a call from the producer on my way to the grocery store:

"we need some really BAD music now, and none of the libraries have anything bad enough-can you help us out? Shaggy is playing the guitar in the spot, and he needs to really suck."

I rushed home and got the producer on speakerphone. i whipped out my trusty acoustic and starting plunking around for him.

"no-not bad enough".

i forget that i have any knowledge of how to play chords, and plunk around some more.

"nope-still not bad enough"

"hold on a second", i say and detune several of the strings on my guitar. as soon as i start to play again, i hear:

"that's it!!! perfect!"

i hit record on my sequencer and capture 20-30 seconds of this magic moment. uploaded it to the ftp, they dropped it in the spot right then, and i was done in time to catch [name of TV show deleted to save face].


who says that's not art baby! ;)