Gustaf Grefberg ripping off Harry Gregson Williams in Chronicles of Riddick score.

[Lunatique]

While playing Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay, the action cue made me say "WTF?!" out loud. That cue is almost a straight rip-off of Harry Gregson Williams' score for Metal Gear Solid 2. The percussion style, the spiccato string riff, and even the melody. Now, I understand that sometimes composers are asked to mimic a certain style, but what I heard was much too similar for me to feel comfortable with. Anyone esle noticed this?

[Marcussen]

Nope... only heard a few tracks that I found quite good. But I dont know MGS2 so :)

Anyway - spicatto rips in action cues are now classic. Ofcourse if the melody is the same its iffy :)

But hey - listen to Bill Browns Rainbow6 score. Hes one of the big men in the game music industry, and his rainbow 6 score is right out of The Rock

[Lunatique]

Yeah, I guess spicatto riffs combined with ethno-centric percussion and synth bleeps are the "in" style now. It doesn't make it any more appealing when you are playing a game that feels nothing like another game, yet, the music throws you into the feel of another game. The action cue was completely wrong for the moody feel of the Riddick game too--it was a bad judgement call.

[Marcussen]

K... well... I haven't played either of them. Only heard the COR music.

Personaly i'm scoring a game atm where I have been asked to do a orchestral/electronic/ethnic thing. So I'm sure that will sound similar as well :D

[Brian McBrearty]

It's funny... I don't know if I've heard MGS2 either, but I stopped dead in my tracks at hearing the COR Action Mix because I thought I'd heard it before. I remember saying to a couple of friends, "where is this from?" But I never came up with it. So, eventually I became convinced that it was just a cliché but not lifted and that I just imagined that it was note-for-note familiar. And this remains my position, but it's funny that this particular piece should be raised here.

[Houston Haynes]

Someone needs to post samples of both cues to show their overlap - I'm quite curious.

[Lunatique]

http://s17.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=18SC8YYULZAEV3DI1GA6UUQQOL

That's the link to the action cue from the Riddick game. He made several other action cues that sounded almost identical, without much variations in them at all. That was another blow to my impression of his work on Riddick.

[Symbiotic]

I'm pretty familiar with MGS2 (have listened to the soundtrack many times). And while this cue from Riddick IS very similar in style to MGS2, there isn't any specific cue that sounds identical - or really even close melodically speaking.

Yes - there is some SERIOUS stylistic overlap. But as indicated above, this is a very popular style right now - and one that Gregson-Williams excels at - but I wouldn't say it is a blatant rip off.

Just my .02

[Lunatique]

This kinda leads to another question, and that is, "Which is the greater crime--actually ripping off a melody, but doing it with a totally different style, or ripping off a style so closely that it's mistaken for another composer's work, but not actually copying it note for note"?

[Symbiotic]

Isn't the old saying something like "Amateurs 'imitate', professionals 'steal'?" ;)

[Hawkes]

I scanned through the Metal Gear 2 music real quick and came up with this excerpt as being closest to the Chronicles sound:

MGS2 Theme Excerpt (http://pages.sbcglobal.net/dana-d/temp/MGS2%20Theme.mp3)

Like Indicator said, same style, but no stolen themes. This heavy percussion with stacatto strings thing isn't exactly unique to MGS though... seems like it's a standard thing to do for action music. It doesn't sound too different from some of Bill Brown's music. I can't think of specifics, but to me it seems to especially be sort of a Media Ventures standard. (I've always thought of Bill Brown as being a sort of Media Venture-ish composer).

BTW, I don't mean any offense toward any of these composers... I happen to like this sort of stuff. :)

[Brian McBrearty]

Nah, if that's what we're talking about, it's benign. That's just a style.

I'm thinkin theft is something you'd see on the page. Is that simplistic?

And I meant that I thought I'd heard the melody before. But in case I didn't soft-pedal it enough the first time, let me clearly say that I'm just as satisfied that the melody is simply catchy and that I probably hadn't heard it before.

I thought it coincidental that this particular cue was called out, but it seems like we're talking about different things.

[IOComposer]

This kinda leads to another question, and that is, "Which is the greater crime--actually ripping off a melody, but doing it with a totally different style, or ripping off a style so closely that it's mistaken for another composer's work, but not actually copying it note for note"?

The greater crime is that which is perpetrated by the control freak creative director who hires a composer to write the music for his/her project and then rejects everything that said composer writes because it is not EXACTLY what he/she wants to hear. Then he/she sets down a CD of Henry-Gregass-Whateverthe~~~~ on the composers desk and says "make it like this". Then the composer, gripping tightly in his hands the fact that there are 1000 other composers knocking on creative director's door offering to do exactly what he wants for free, assumes the position and writes the music he has to write to make Ego-boy smile and get paid for the job.

-Jamey

[Symbiotic]

Bitter much, Jamey? ;) Just kidding! I'm quite certain the above-described scenario happens more than any of us care to recount. Alas for creative directors who don't actually have the creative vision to let the composers and sound designers do their job - to create an artistic, unique AND fitting soundtrack.

[IOComposer]

Bitter much, Jamey? ;) Just kidding! I'm quite certain the above-described scenario happens more than any of us care to recount. Alas for creative directors who don't actually have the creative vision to let the composers and sound designers do their job - to create an artistic, unique AND fitting soundtrack.

No, I'm not bitter. I've long since eliminated those types of people out of my client load. I was saying that as an illustration of how easy it is to fall into the trap of immitation, even if your intentions are contrary.
-Jamey

[Houston Haynes]

The greater crime is that which is perpetrated by the control freak creative director who hires a composer to write the music for his/her project and then rejects everything that said composer writes because it is not EXACTLY what he/she wants to hear.

Must control fist... of... death... :mad:

Must find stupid creative director who deserved neither in his job description and :n::eek: him and strike fear into the hearts of his comrades...

..or I could just smile, say "yessah" and cash my check after I've delivered the final cue...

:|:

Dude - I am TOTALLY with you... I've turned away some "parrot" work, and lobbied hard and won creative leeway when I thought it was worth it.

[Symbiotic]

No, I'm not bitter. I've long since eliminated those types of people out of my client load. I was saying that as an illustration of how easy it is to fall into the trap of immitation, even if your intentions are contrary.
-Jamey

Didn't mean to offend - I apologize if I did. Just meant it as a joke. :)

As someone who would likely be among those beating down the CD's door at my current level of experience, even I can see the importance of artistic integrity and individuality in the industry. Granted - I think Gregson-Williams is one of the best in the business right now. But it isn't hard to single him out - Hollywood is notoriously "small" when it comes to active, working composers in the film industry. And while I admire and appreciate their influences - and I actually like a lot of his work specifically - the game industry is poised to grossly surpass the confines of "Hollywood" scores and soundtracks, and I only see that as providing more potential for composers of our ilk to infuse truly unique ideas into the genre.

Let's just hope that as games continue to progress, Producers, CD's, etc. will continue to see the value in what we have to offer.

[IOComposer]

Didn't mean to offend - I apologize if I did. Just meant it as a joke. :)

I'LL do the offending here, thank you very much ;)
I'm very, very difficult to offend.
-Jamey

[Houston Haynes]

FYI - thought this was at least tangentially related:


THE SOCIETY OF COMPOSERS & LYRICISTS
SCL Seminar Series --- FREE for SCL Members
http://www.TheSCL.com
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THE SOCIETY OF COMPOSERS & LYRICISTS (SCL)
presents the Seminar
WRITING MUSIC FOR GAMES (Part 3)

THURSDAY, MAY 19, 2005, 7:30 p.m.*
FREE to current Members of the SCL
$25-Non-members (including guests of members), $15-Students with valid IDs

THE SOCIETY OF COMPOSERS & LYRICISTS (SCL) presents an in-depth look at several recent games, from the unique perspective of several different composers. Featured panelists will give us an inside look at their latest game projects, demonstrating the techniques and methods used to write and produce music for interactive media, followed by a Q&A session for you to ask them your questions.

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with Composers MARTY O'DONNELL, TOM SALTA, GARRY SCHYMAN, and JACK WALL.

BILLY MARTIN is an award-winning composer and songwriter who has written songs and score for thirty games, and is a member of the SCL Board of Directors. Some of his credits include MEMORICK:THE APPRENTICE KNIGHT, TARZAN UNTAMED, SPY KIDS 3D.

MARTY O'DONNELL has written and produced numerous original scores for TV, radio, and film. His unique compositional work on the HALO games have helped make it into the successful franchise that it is today. The audio for HALO received numerous awards including the Game Developers Choice Award and Best Soundtrack of the Year from Rolling Stone magazine. HALO 2 has also won multiple awards. Marty is currently audio director for Bungie Studios at Microsoft.

TOM SALTA is the winner of this year's G.A.N.G award for Rookie of the Year (for game music). With a music career that spans over fifteen years, Tom has worked with numerous major artists and on numerous platinum albums. Music from his debut album ATLAS PLUG:2 DAYS OR DIE has been used in TV Shows, trailers, commercials and games including RALLISPORT CHALLENGE 2, SRS, and MLB 2006. His game credits include COLD FEAR, NEED FOR SPEED UNDERGROUND 2, GHOST RECON 2 (Theme).

GARRY SCHYMAN is an SCL Board member, whose experience outside games includes feature films, television movies, series television, and documentaries. Garry will discuss DESTROY ALL HUMANS, his second video game score using live orchestra.

JACK WALL has built a track record and an international reputation as a highly successful composer and music producer in the interactive entertainment sector. His work on MYST IV:REVELATION won multiple awards this year. Some of his other credits include JADE EMPIRE, SPLINTER CELL:PANDORA TOMORROW, WRATH UNLEASHED.

FREE to current Members of the SCL
$25 - Non-members (including guests of members)
$15 - Students with valid IDs
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Send your RSVP email to ExecDir@TheSCL.com --and provide the name/date of the event, your name, and your daytime phone # (in case we need to contact you). If additional people are coming with you, please provide their name(s) and whether they are SCL members or not. Confirmation of your RSVP will be sent only if you request it at the time of sending your RSVP.

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THE SOCIETY OF COMPOSERS & LYRICISTS (SCL) is the non-profit organization for professional composers and lyricists with a long and distinguished history in the fine art of creating music for motion pictures and television. The predecessor organization, the Screen Composers Association, began in 1945 with such legendary icons as Max Steiner, Bernard Herrmann, Erich Wolfgang Korngold, Dimitri Tiomkin and David Raksin among others. Current SCL Members include the top creative professionals whose experience and expertise is focused on many of the creative, technological, legal, newsworthy and pressing issues of the film/television/game music industry today.
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Looks like "Hollywood" is tuning in...

[Marcussen]

Just listened to the COR track posted here. It sounds VERY much like Klaus Badlets "Pirates of the Caribbean" theme - far more than it sounds like MGS.

Klaus Badlet is also out of Media Ventures, so its no coincidence that MGS and POTC sound alike.

[IOComposer]

Looks like "Hollywood" is tuning in...

More like, trying to cash in.
-Jamey

[Lunatique]

The greater crime is that which is perpetrated by the control freak creative director who .........

Hi Jamey! I didn't know you hung around here.

Yeah, that would totally suck. It's a difficult situation though, because there's no guarantee that a composer you hire can match or surpass the quality of the music you already know and love and were inspired by to create your story/visuals in the first place. Remember back when we were talking about the score for Promise and I was talking about the combination of styles I was after? See, in a way, that's like forcing the composer to do something he might not want to do, but at the same time, that kind of combination has never been done before (or at least I haven't heard), and would be a bit of an innovation (IMHO). But suppose the composer hates Debussy, Ravel, all electronic music, and would be in agony to have to compose in that style?

I think it's all about finding people that share your vision and ideas. This is probably why Spielberg and Williams work so well together--they probably have similar taste.

[Joris de Man]

Although I do hear a distinct influence in the theme from COR posted here, one should note that the original MGS music (on which Harry Gregson's theme is based) wasn't particular original either.
It was actually closely modelled on a combination of the main theme of 'Speed' by Mark Mancina and 'The Rock' by Hans Zimmer, HGW's mentor.
HGW beefed it up and remodelled it for MGS2, giving it the typical Mediaventures flavour but the core of the theme wasn't really that original to begin with.

That having been said, it sounded great and worked like a charm...this stuff sounds okay but certainly not as well produced as HGW, imho...

Cheers,

Joris

[IOComposer]

Hi Jamey! I didn't know you hung around here.

LOL! Rob? I thought someone ripped off your artwork for their Avatar :)
I wouldn't say I "hang out here". Just check in from time to time to embarrass myself.



Yeah, that would totally suck. It's a difficult situation though, because there's no guarantee that a composer you hire can match or surpass the quality of the music you already know and love and were inspired by to create your story/visuals in the first place. Remember back when we were talking about the score for Promise and I was talking about the combination of styles I was after? See, in a way, that's like forcing the composer to do something he might not want to do, but at the same time, that kind of combination has never been done before (or at least I haven't heard), and would be a bit of an innovation (IMHO). But suppose the composer hates Debussy, Ravel, all electronic music, and would be in agony to have to compose in that style?



Well, yeah I think that it has to be a situation where you hear something in a composer that you're thrilled about in his/her music and then you go in with the assumption that that thing is what you'll get. Never being on the hiring side of things, I don't know for sure but I can imagine that if I were to hire a composer for my project I would listen to a lot of stuff until I heard exactly what I want to hear and then pursue that person. It's a little bit tougher when you find what you want but you have no money to hire....but then again an artistic connection is a rare and beautiful thing which can transcend financial barriers. I have an artistic connection with Sam Chen and would and do work with him on everything regardless of the financial parameters. I remember you talking very passionately about Sakamoto (sp?) and I think that you would probably connect very well with him artistically.




I think it's all about finding people that share your vision and ideas. This is probably why Spielberg and Williams work so well together--they probably have similar taste.

Exactly!! I believe that you can't have a career as a composer trying to be all things to all people. I've gone through a lot of stages in my craft as a composer and one of those stages was trying to be everything to every opportunity that came my way. It was very frustrating because I was never quite doing it good enough. Sorta like shaving the edges off a square peg to make it fit. Now I do one thing very well and it's a style of music that either works or it doesn't. If it works, then my jobs as a composer go really well. If it doesn't then I either back out or don't get hired in the first place. I may be different from many on this bb, but I'd much rather work as a sound designer to pay my bills then have to take jobs where I'm required to sound like Hans Zimmer (though I do love some of his music!). The thing is when it's working and I'm on a project where I'm valued for my style as a composer, it's a really great feeling and makes me really gung-ho about composing music.

Cheers,
Jamey

[Symbiotic]

I believe that you can't have a career as a composer trying to be all things to all people. I've gone through a lot of stages in my craft as a composer and one of those stages was trying to be everything to every opportunity that came my way. It was very frustrating because I was never quite doing it good enough. Sorta like shaving the edges off a square peg to make it fit. Now I do one thing very well and it's a style of music that either works or it doesn't. If it works, then my jobs as a composer go really well. If it doesn't then I either back out or don't get hired in the first place. I may be different from many on this bb, but I'd much rather work as a sound designer to pay my bills then have to take jobs where I'm required to sound like Hans Zimmer (though I do love some of his music!). The thing is when it's working and I'm on a project where I'm valued for my style as a composer, it's a really great feeling and makes me really gung-ho about composing music.


Jamey - Thank you for sharing that inspiring philosophy. Some great thoughts to consider for those of us new to the industry. Cheers!

[IOComposer]

Jamey - Thank you for sharing that inspiring philosophy. Some great thoughts to consider for those of us new to the industry. Cheers!

Thanks, mate! It's great to have my perspective appreciated :)
-Jamey