I am going to learn to do it properly!!! ... a little advice please

[wayne_rowley]

Hi there,

I have been composing music for over 10 years now. I am completely self taught but have managed to learn some music theory over the years (I can read music - but not sight-read - I have to learn it). I have produced some good music in that time - but limited music. My greatest musical love has been orchestral music - especially film music. Over the last 10 years we have come to the point where sample libraries and soft synths can produce some FANTASTIC sounding orchestral music. I listen to EWQLSO Platinum, VSL etc, and I think I would LOVE those sounds... but the realisation hit me the other day that if I had all of those sounds I could not use them! :( I discovered that what I really would love is to be able to write that level of music! So I am going to learn! I know it will take time but I want to learn properly... the theory and practice, to write and orchestrate as well as produce the MIDI performance.

As a start I have bought a couple of books, The Guide to MIDI Orchestration and Orchestration (Walter Piston). I plan on getting some scores to study as well. I will do it bit by bit. I have a good computer with SONAR 3, EWQLSO hooked up to a Kurweil K2600 with some good sample libs (Symphony of Voices, Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Strings). However (and now on to my question), I want to move away from composing in SONAR and learn to write using notation - then move to SONAR for production and the mixdown. I have always written music in SONAR, overlaying track after track. No matter how good it sounds, but the time I have finished it I have forgotten it. I think that many on the forum will agree with the merits of writing with the score. But I need a scoring package. I don't have a lot of money (and I could not use a high end one at the moment). But I need one that can score a full symphony orchestral, work with sounds as I am writing (maybe just the Kurzweil ones), and allow me to print it and export to MIDI file. I was all for Finale Allegro 2005 - then I remembered that GPO comes with Overture SE (new I would be on-topic eventually). At the moment GPO is at £89 for SONAR owners in the UK - £40 cheaper than Allegro (and has the additional sounds as a bonus :cool: ).

So my question is - how good is Overture SE? Is it a good enough to write full orchestral scores with? What are the limitations? And at the end of the day - which is the best option?

Sorry for going on a bit - thanks for reading though.
Regards,
Wayne

[loogoo]

Overture SE is a somewhat cut-down version of the full Overture. I'm not sure what the staff limit per score is but you can still format a full orchestra. The main differences are number of staves per score and the full version also contains provisions for guitar and jazz notation. The thing that makes Overture SE (and the full version as well) so useful for learning is that it is optimized to work with GPO and as such it is much easier to set up and work with than other notation packages. Many members of this forum use Overture for their composition work.

The most exciting thing though is that the newest version of Overture (which is supposed to be released sometime in the near future) will feature full VSTi support so you can use your EWQL or other VST instruments right in Overture, same as you would in Sonar. Overture SE included in GPO will have an upgrade path to Overture 4 when it is released so you could start using it now and expand your options when the new version is released.

Good luck with your studies - it is truly a rewarding challenge you've set for yourself.

[newmewzikboy]

The functionality I find REALLY lacking in FINALE OR SIBELIUS is a good controller editing function. OVERTURE looks like it has better capabilities here...?

[Styxx]

I've laid out a full score in overture for a couple of musicals. Yet, really ... with it being bundled in GPO, use it and learn from it. Never using notational program and getting into excellent sound libraries (GPO) you just can't go wrong for the money!
DO IT! ;)

[wayne_rowley]

Thanks for the replies so far. I doubt I would be able to afford to Overture 4 for a while, so if I go for GPO, Overture SE has to be capable of creating a full score. According the documentation it is limited to 32 voices - does it mean staves, or simultaneous notes (i.e. 32 staves, but only one note per stave).

Thanks,
Wayne

[loogoo]

The limitation is 32 staves. Each staff can handle up to eight voices. So you shouldn't have any problem with a full score. The overall number of voices will be determined by your system (CPU and RAM).

[rpearl]

Hi there,

I have been composing music for over 10 years now. I am completely self taught but have managed to learn some music theory over the years (I can read music - but not sight-read - I have to learn it). I have produced some good music in that time - but limited music. My greatest musical love has been orchestral music - especially film music. Over the last 10 years we have come to the point where sample libraries and soft synths can produce some FANTASTIC sounding orchestral music. I listen to EWQLSO Platinum, VSL etc, and I think I would LOVE those sounds... but the realisation hit me the other day that if I had all of those sounds I could not use them! :( I discovered that what I really would love is to be able to write that level of music! So I am going to learn! I know it will take time but I want to learn properly... the theory and practice, to write and orchestrate as well as produce the MIDI performance.

As a start I have bought a couple of books, The Guide to MIDI Orchestration and Orchestration (Walter Piston). I plan on getting some scores to study as well. I will do it bit by bit. I have a good computer with SONAR 3, EWQLSO hooked up to a Kurweil K2600 with some good sample libs (Symphony of Voices, Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Strings). However (and now on to my question), I want to move away from composing in SONAR and learn to write using notation - then move to SONAR for production and the mixdown. I have always written music in SONAR, overlaying track after track. No matter how good it sounds, but the time I have finished it I have forgotten it. I think that many on the forum will agree with the merits of writing with the score. But I need a scoring package. I don't have a lot of money (and I could not use a high end one at the moment). But I need one that can score a full symphony orchestral, work with sounds as I am writing (maybe just the Kurzweil ones), and allow me to print it and export to MIDI file. I was all for Finale Allegro 2005 - then I remembered that GPO comes with Overture SE (new I would be on-topic eventually). At the moment GPO is at £89 for SONAR owners in the UK - £40 cheaper than Allegro (and has the additional sounds as a bonus :cool: ).

So my question is - how good is Overture SE? Is it a good enough to write full orchestral scores with? What are the limitations? And at the end of the day - which is the best option?

Sorry for going on a bit - thanks for reading though.
Regards,
Wayne

I'm pretty new to GPO, and can't comment on Overture's notational abilities. That being said, I use Sibelius for notation, save it as a MIDI file, then import it into Overture if I need to do a lot of tweaking. I really like Siblius, and have become very comforatble and fluent with it; I do, however, like Overture's graphical interface for modifying data.

You can always start with Overtuer SE (which comes with GPO) and if need be move up to the full version at another time.

R. Pearl

[trentpmcd]

A couple of things to think about:

Pick up a few scores and read through them. You might be surprised at how few staves are used, remembering that more than one part is often use on a staff. Here is an example – Mahler’s Symphony No. 5 has 21 staves including 4 percussion staves. If you’ve listened, he gets a huge sound. So OK, Mahler did use 33 staves in his Symphony No. 6, but you rarely get much bigger.

The other thing is this – if you are really going to do it right, start small. Don’t start your studies with a piccolo, 4 flutes, 4 oboes, english horn, E flat clarinet, 3 B flat clarinets, a bass clarinet, 4 bassoons, a contrabassoon, 8 horns, etc. that Mahler uses in his Symphony No. 6. Start with a few solos, duets, quartets, small ensembles, etc. and work your way up. In the end I think you will get more out of it.

Anyway, I don’t think you can get a much better deal than GPO. You may find you need more than Overture SE but you’ll at least be starting out with a great sounding library.

[newmewzikboy]

A couple of things to think about:

The other thing is this – if you are really going to do it right, start small. Don’t start your studies with a piccolo, 4 flutes, 4 oboes, english horn, E flat clarinet, 3 B flat clarinets, a bass clarinet, 4 bassoons, a contrabassoon, 8 horns, etc. that Mahler uses in his Symphony No. 6. Start with a few solos, duets, quartets, small ensembles, etc. and work your way up. In the end I think you will get more out of it...

And you might actually be able to get it read by a real musician.

For a good orchestra size: 2222-4221-2-pa-hp-str

[Error]

This may or may not apply to you, but... In terms of writing the actual music, the two biggest problems I've had with Overture are:

1. Non-metered music. Overture doesn't explicity support this. I simulate the lack of a meter by making each measure really long and making each line a seperate measure. This is somewhat annoying, especially if you decide late on that you want to reorder any significant amount of material - you can't just copy/paste it, but need to spend a long time fussing around to keep things lined up. However, none of the other notation problems I've used have a truly outstanding solution to this.

2. Positioning of the details. Maybe I'm just picky, but Overture sometimes formats things, like stem length, distance from the accidental to the note, etc. in ways I don't like. Fortunately, Overture lets you move everything around with plenty of precision, but I waste time getting things spaced well (Sibelius, for example, is much about this).

Andnewmewzikboy - Overture does have good controller editing functions. You can do it manually in the piano roll view, or assign controller values to markings of all types, and it's easy to assign GPO-friendly defaults to those.

[hummingbird]

Hi Wayne,

If you *really* want to get a jump on figuring out GPO, check out the tutorials on the Garritan website. There is some EXCELLENT info to be had there, both related specifically to GPO and also to orchestration in general.

GPO Studio and Overture SE are an incredible "bang for the buck" pair. There is a little learning curve - but there are tutorials on Studio/Overture as well, both intro, and "el grande".

Good luck. :-)

[newmewzikboy]

Finale sucks for Non-metered music as well. YOu can hide barlines and time sigs.

too bad about controller edit on Overture. THough it was better.

Still looking for a good notation tool that allows for RICH MIDI edits incl tempo and controller information similar to a sequencer etc.

[wayne_rowley]

Thanks for the great replies! I am almost sold on this. I have only a few more questions on Overture SE:

- Can I input data from a MIDI keyboard, in step time and real time?

- Can I configure Overture SE to talk to the Kurz as well as/instead of GPO or is it limited to GPO?

- Does it support all Clefs?

- Can I export work as a MIDI file?

- How good is the printed output?

- Can I install it on 2 computers (my music PC does not have a printer - my laptop does)?

Thanks for the help on this! It is a shame about the lack of lyrics, but I can live without those. GPO and Overture are a great price at the mo!

Wayne

[rpearl]

Thanks for the great replies! I am almost sold on this. I have only a few more questions on Overture SE:

- Can I input data from a MIDI keyboard, in step time and real time?

- Can I configure Overture SE to talk to the Kurz as well as/instead of GPO or is it limited to GPO?

- Can I export work as a MIDI file?

- How good is the printed output?

- Can I install it on 2 computers (my music PC does not have a printer - my laptop does)?

Thanks for the help on this! It is a shame about the lack of lyrics, but I can live without those. GPO and Overture are a great price at the mo!

Wayne

Wayne,

I can't answer your specific questions (although I think the first one is a definite Yes). Have you visited the Overture website? Geniesoft.com could provide you with many answers - they have a forum, as well. There is also a Manual to download - very helpful, and is quite extensive.

Good luck.

R. Pearl

[wayne_rowley]

Wayne,

I can't answer your specific questions (although I think the first one is a definite Yes). Have you visited the Overture website? Geniesoft.com could provide you with many answers - they have a forum, as well. There is also a Manual to download - very helpful, and is quite extensive.

Good luck.

R. Pearl

Hi there,

I have yes, but while it gives lots of great info for Overture 3 - I am not sure how much applies to Overture SE. I will have a look at the manual though.

I need to decide soon as the price of £85 is only available to the 30th!!

Wayne

[loogoo]

Thanks for the great replies! I am almost sold on this. I have only a few more questions on Overture SE:

- Can I input data from a MIDI keyboard, in step time and real time?

- Can I configure Overture SE to talk to the Kurz as well as/instead of GPO or is it limited to GPO?

- Does it support all Clefs?

- Can I export work as a MIDI file?

- How good is the printed output?

- Can I install it on 2 computers (my music PC does not have a printer - my laptop does)?

Wayne

In answer to your questions (most of them)...

- Yes Step-time and regular MIDI input is available.

- Not certain, but if the Kurzweil has a driver installed on you computer, it should appear as a MIDI device in your tracks window.

- Clefs supported are Treble, Tenor, Modern Piccolo clef, movable C clef, Bass, Modern Baritone clef, 8va bassa clef and two percussion clefs.

- MIDI export is supported.

- The printout is fine. FINALE users might protest, but there is a lot of flexibility in symbol placement (a bit more manual than the automatic functions found in Finale and sibelius).

- As far as I can tell, there is no activation procedure for Overture SE, so you should have no trouble installing it on a second computer.

For what it's worth, I myself Have Sibelius, but I find myself quite often working in Overture because of its ease of use with GPO.

[newmewzikboy]

If you like alternatives, there are some opensource notation packages on sourceforge.net. Here is one...

http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/abc/

[rwayland]

Hi there,

I have been composing music for over 10 years now. I am completely self taught but have managed to learn some music theory over the years (I can read music - but not sight-read - I have to learn it). I have produced some good music in that time - but limited music. My greatest musical love has been orchestral music - especially film music. Over the last 10 years we have come to the point where sample libraries and soft synths can produce some FANTASTIC sounding orchestral music. I listen to EWQLSO Platinum, VSL etc, and I think I would LOVE those sounds... but the realisation hit me the other day that if I had all of those sounds I could not use them! :( I discovered that what I really would love is to be able to write that level of music! So I am going to learn! I know it will take time but I want to learn properly... the theory and practice, to write and orchestrate as well as produce the MIDI performance.

As a start I have bought a couple of books, The Guide to MIDI Orchestration and Orchestration (Walter Piston). I plan on getting some scores to study as well. I will do it bit by bit. I have a good computer with SONAR 3, EWQLSO hooked up to a Kurweil K2600 with some good sample libs (Symphony of Voices, Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Strings). However (and now on to my question), I want to move away from composing in SONAR and learn to write using notation - then move to SONAR for production and the mixdown. I have always written music in SONAR, overlaying track after track. No matter how good it sounds, but the time I have finished it I have forgotten it. I think that many on the forum will agree with the merits of writing with the score. But I need a scoring package. I don't have a lot of money (and I could not use a high end one at the moment). But I need one that can score a full symphony orchestral, work with sounds as I am writing (maybe just the Kurzweil ones), and allow me to print it and export to MIDI file. I was all for Finale Allegro 2005 - then I remembered that GPO comes with Overture SE (new I would be on-topic eventually). At the moment GPO is at £89 for SONAR owners in the UK - £40 cheaper than Allegro (and has the additional sounds as a bonus :cool: ).

So my question is - how good is Overture SE? Is it a good enough to write full orchestral scores with? What are the limitations? And at the end of the day - which is the best option?

Sorry for going on a bit - thanks for reading though.
Regards,
Wayne


Well, I may be missing something. Sonar can be used in the staff mode, and you can enter your music by various means. The printed score is not very good, but it is easily imported to Sibelius or other notation software. It is not as easy to get a good import from Sibelius to Sonar, because it will be midi type 0.

I nearly always work from Sonar to Sibelius, once I have a sketch of some sort on paper. Sometimes fairly complete, sometimes not. What works for me may not work for you. If your software is good, at some point, personal preference enters the picture, and that is not a matter subject to argument. You like what you like!

Richard

[rpearl]

Hi there,

I have yes, but while it gives lots of great info for Overture 3 - I am not sure how much applies to Overture SE. I will have a look at the manual though.

I need to decide soon as the price of £85 is only available to the 30th!!

Wayne

Wayne,

At that price you can hardly go wrong! GPO is a great program - whether or not Overture is everything you need, it works well, and will get you on the road with a great sound library.

I think everyone here will give you permission to spend the money;)

Enjoy!

R. Pearl

[wayne_rowley]

Hi there,

Thanks for the replies guys... and for the advice people gave me on the GPO chat last night. I have just ordered GPO from Etcetera!!! :D :D I am pretty sure that Overture will offer what I need. I am only a beginner to notating so I don't want anything too complicated! Plus, it is cheaper than Finale Allegro with GPO at the current deal... and if working with notation does not agree with me... I still have the great sounds of GPO to use in SONAR. Hopefully it will sound good with Silver and the Kurzweil!

Thanks for all the advice again. GPO seems to be aimed at people wanting to learn orchestration - hopefully it will help me.

Wayne

[wayne_rowley]

Well, I may be missing something. Sonar can be used in the staff mode, and you can enter your music by various means. The printed score is not very good, but it is easily imported to Sibelius or other notation software. It is not as easy to get a good import from Sibelius to Sonar, because it will be midi type 0.

I nearly always work from Sonar to Sibelius, once I have a sketch of some sort on paper. Sometimes fairly complete, sometimes not. What works for me may not work for you. If your software is good, at some point, personal preference enters the picture, and that is not a matter subject to argument. You like what you like!

Richard

Thanks Richard. I am so used to using SONAR with the track, piano roll and event views I completely forget about the staff. I also find that when playing in, the staff view does not always interpret it correctly. I will have another look though!

BTW, I think that if you load a type 0 midi file in SONAR you can split the track by MIDI channel - thereby creating the individual tracks you would have in a type 1... still not as ideal though I guess.

Wayne