Looking For Acoustic drum library!

[Mytheodos]

I'm looking for a great acoustic drum library for giga.I listened to samples of the larry sayer acoustic drum library.Very Impressive.I there anything else out there thats similar to the sound quality,and at a lower price?

[Bela D Media]

http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34672

GS3 Version coming very soon and for this price, you get a guitar and bass to boot ;)

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I have not heard anything which remotely compares to them at any price. Larry's drum library is pretty much the killer.

[Alewis]

Larry's library is great! One cannot forget Purrrfect Drums by StudioCat, however.

[c.k]

Toontrack's Superior Custom & Vintage. Hands down.


Cheers,

ck

[Alan Russell]

I'm looking for a great acoustic drum library for giga.I listened to samples of the larry sayer acoustic drum library.Very Impressive.I there anything else out there thats similar to the sound quality,and at a lower price?

Hi,

Hang in there guy. Bardstownaudio is in the works to produce the first Jazz Drum Library with all the whistles you'll need. This is going to be a mind blower when it comes out IMHO. It will accomodate Gigastudio 3.0 and other formats..

Alan Russell

[Alan Lastufka]

I'm really interested to hear what others think about this, because if sales of high quality libraries continue to lag, I believe it's really going to put a crimp in the production of truly excellent, high-end products.

Lee Blaske

I think it's a combination of everything above, minus the price point. Doesn't seem to matter if the library is $149 or $329 when I speak to people privately about it (users, not developers).

Perhaps there simply isn't the demand for drums, at least within the majority of the NSS crowd? Or perhaps others have already invested in a full drum package, between SID, DFH and BFD - is there room for more? I sure hope so! But seeing how our Studio B only started shipping yesterday, I can't tell you yet.

I guess sales will tell the final story. But based in his group buy numbers and reports I'm hearing from other drum lib devs, perhaps I should go sample an orchestra, get it over with and make my fortune that way. ;)

[PaulR]

I'm really interested to hear what others think about this, because if sales of high quality libraries continue to lag, I believe it's really going to put a crimp in the production of truly excellent, high-end products.
Lee Blaske

If this had been available for the Mac - I would have bought it in a heartbeat Lee.

I don't understand the politics of sales and different forums and boards - and I don't wanna know actually.

Al I know is - is what you have all said - Larry comes across as a real gentleman and a true artist at what he's achieved with this library. But I think eventually, real class libraries always come to the fore.

[Hardy Heern]

Well, the Larry Seyer library could have gone down to half price if enough people signed up for Tascam's group buy which ended at midnight on May 27 (I'm assuming it's safe to talk about it here now, because it's over). I bought a copy myself, but I was surprised at how few were sold (about two dozen, the last time I looked). I really feel sorry for Larry. This library has been extensively promoted and advertised, and was undoubtedly a labor of love for him. At the moment, it's probably the library that most takes advantage of GS3, and Tascam has been making a big deal of that. But two dozen copies sold at a slightly reduced price? That kind of response is not going to pay the freight, or make it worthwhile for developers to do projects that take a huge time, talent, studio and packaging investment.

I think most people knew about the Seyer group buy. I got several notices from Tascam, and saw references to it in a number of places. There's been a Larry Seyer banner up on this forum, and it immediately took you to a page that mentioned the group buy.

I'm really curious as to why this library didn't sell well in the group buy. Is an actual, official group buy promotion on NS essential to a group buy's success? Is this a problem with the format? Is it possible that not many people are using GS3? From here on out, does a library need to come bundled with player software to sell well? Is it a problem with price point? When people see GPO going for $139, does that redefine what they think software should sell for to the point that $399 (or even $199) seems too expensive for a library of just drums? Is it a lack of CP issue (in other words, since the LS library has no CP, are bootlegged copies circulating rapidly, hurting sales)?

I'm really interested to hear what others think about this, because if sales of high quality libraries continue to lag, I believe it's really going to put a crimp in the production of truly excellent, high-end products.

Lee Blaske

Never heard anything about the Group Buy. That accounts for some of the lack of interest as I would think I wasn't the only one. Also I took part in SOL Group Buy (or was it a sale) on DFH2 not so long ago. There's also just a hell of a lot of damned good drum libraries out there. I do think that some of these libraries (generally) are just too expensive for hobbyists/enthusiasts like myself. I need to look at value and have to look at sales and/or Group Buys. I bet there are maybe 10-20 good drum libraries available? I'm also considering the SD GB but I gather that it also has standard Drum kits which might have made my purchase of DFH2 unnecessary due to the overlap.

The free or full versions of the ns_kit7 must be worth a look too.

A problem with NS now is the fact that you have to go around several forums to find out what the hell is going on. One of the great things about the old style NS was that by just coming here you didn't miss much.

Everyone's frightened to give users head ups about Group buys, sales etc. If I had the time I'd run a web site with a list of who is selling what and where.....Nothing else.....That's all that's needed. Maybe when I get a minute!

It's a real hisser! http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif I'd like the NS ruling to be clarified on this.

Frank

[jloeb]

What Frank said.
I had no idea whatsoever that this group buy was going on. That bothers me.

As well, though, i think that the deeper and more programmed a library gets, the better a move it is to package it with its own player as a self-contained unit. I use MachFive, and so if a library makes full use of all the options in a particular softsampler format, that's a bear for me to import and so i'm much more likely to go with a VI-type package to avoid all those hours of tweaking. (Looking forward to M52 which is touted as being able to handle the GS3 goodies on import.) I imagine that this is a concern for other platform users as well, though Kontakt users for example can usually look forward to their own version.

[Bela D Media]

I'm really interested to hear what others think about this, because if sales of high quality libraries continue to lag, I believe it's really going to put a crimp in the production of truly excellent, high-end products.
Lee Blaske

Lee,

What about a product like Lyrical Distortion? You have heard all of the demos and praises I am sure. It's $149.99 <---- that is low cost but can you say it is not high quality?

Price should not determine the level of quality in any direction. Developers like Bela D, Garritan, SAM and others are working very hard to prove that! Your thoughts?


Francis Belardino
Bela D Media.com

[jeffn1]

I think it's pretty clear. Promotion or discussion of non-sponsored group buys is prohibited, and threads mentioning them are deleted.

It would really have been interesting to see what the LS group buy would have done, had it been promoted here. Still, everyone who has a registered Tascam sampling project got multiple emails about it, so it was no secret by any means. There was also a $50 off sale on any GS version or update that ran concurrently with Larry's group buy.

Lee Blaske

I hate to say it, but anyone who might be intrested in group buys/deals on products other than those sponsored here is crazy solely to rely on this forum as a source for information.

jeffn1

[Bela D Media]

I own it, Frank, and it's very nice.
Lee Blaske

My bad. Thank you Lee. We are happy you like it!


Could you tell us how many copies have been sold to date? It would be interesting to know. It would also be interesting to know how many copies of your library have been sold vs. Prominy's new library (which is at a significantly higher price point).
Lee Blaske

It would not be very PC to share that information but sales are doing very well. LD1 is about to land in Japan ;)


What's your opinion on Larry Seyer's drum library group buy sales? Do you think the price is the problem, or is it because it will only run on GS? Lee Blaske

I never seen the group buy but I would guess that 1 format only could be an issue. We have that problem with LD1 and StudioB right now. Both will be in GS3 and HALion soon. The bundled player is not an option for a small company such as Bela D.


Frank, is your current thinking that libraries must be large, but sold at low cost with profits made up on volume?Lee Blaske

Our goal is to produce high end gear at a reasonable price point. It has nothing to do about volume of units sold. We don't consider file size when creating a library. It is what it is - when its done.

All we care about is the "Wow Factor" ... "Wow, that sounds amazing and the price is very affodable" - Wow factor!

[tobyond]

There are some really nice kits in the Funk Equipment library, especially for Funk/ DnB stuff.
http://www.funkequipment.com/libraries.html

[_naturalstudio_]

Hi,

Hang in there guy. Bardstownaudio is in the works to produce the first Jazz Drum Library with all the whistles you'll need. This is going to be a mind blower when it comes out IMHO. It will accomodate Gigastudio 3.0 and other formats..

Alan Russell
Now I know I'm treading on thin ice here - but this is exactly what is slightly disturbing me about NorthernSounds at the moment...

I know I'm not allowed to advertise products, so I wont, but let me just say that Bardstown isn't about to produce “the first jazz drum library” – a very comprehensive jazz drum library has already been produced. I'm not allowed to mention what this library is, because I haven't paid NorthernSounds to be able to mention it.

But, if I don't make this post – people will be led to believe that Bardstown really is in unique territory.

Let me make it clear that I have nothing against Bardstown. I do, however, have something against the monopolistic way in which this forum presents itself. People are only really hearing about products from people who have paid the privilege to make such announcements.

I also realise that people must advertise their products, but I also think developers should be able to post here and say “wait a minute – that isn't the first, ours is the first” without first having to pay a substantial fee.

I am not permitted to disclose how much it costs to advertise on this board, but suffice to say it is more than I am willing to pay.

This rather tainted side to the whole sampling community is the reason I started naturalstudio in the first place – a protest against the way in which the system works.

I honestly thought that NorthernSounds was just a cool place where sample developers let you know about their products and people could talk openly about products. I assumed it was paid for by banner ads. I had no idea that, in essence, the readers were censored from reading about any new product that wasn't from paying NorthernSounds customer. That is corrupt.

If this post is deleted, I will assume there is something to hide. I have tried my hardest to stick to the rules with this post. And I would not appreciate this being moved to off topic, as it directly relates to the original post.

I'm not trying to be awkward, just tip the balance.

Douglas.

[Bela D Media]

Just buy a banner. What's the big deal man? You cannot find a more affordable advertising solution with amazing results in return. Join the club and support NSS as all advertisers do.

Best of luck with your products!



Now I know I'm treading on thin ice here - but this is exactly what is slightly disturbing me about NorthernSounds at the moment...

I know I'm not allowed to advertise products, so I wont, but let me just say that Bardstown isn't about to produce “the first jazz drum library” – a very comprehensive jazz drum library has already been produced. I'm not allowed to mention what this library is, because I haven't paid NorthernSounds to be able to mention it.

But, if I don't make this post – people will be led to believe that Bardstown really is in unique territory.

Let me make it clear that I have nothing against Bardstown. I do, however, have something against the monopolistic way in which this forum presents itself. People are only really hearing about products from people who have paid the privilege to make such announcements.

I also realise that people must advertise their products, but I also think developers should be able to post here and say “wait a minute – that isn't the first, ours is the first” without first having to pay a substantial fee.

I am not permitted to disclose how much it costs to advertise on this board, but suffice to say it is more than I am willing to pay.

This rather tainted side to the whole sampling community is the reason I started naturalstudio in the first place – a protest against the way in which the system works.

I honestly thought that NorthernSounds was just a cool place where sample developers let you know about their products and people could talk openly about products. I assumed it was paid for by banner ads. I had no idea that, in essence, the readers were censored from reading about any new product that wasn't from paying NorthernSounds customer. That is corrupt.

If this post is deleted, I will assume there is something to hide. I have tried my hardest to stick to the rules with this post. And I would not appreciate this being moved to off topic, as it directly relates to the original post.

I'm not trying to be awkward, just tip the balance.

Douglas.

[_naturalstudio_]

Just buy a banner. What's the big deal man? You cannot find a more affordable advertising solution with amazing results in return. Join the club and support NSS as all advertisers do.

Best of luck with your products!
The big deal is that I don't want a banner and I don't want to "join" the club. I feel I am already part of it but am being denied that because I'm not willing to pay for advertising. What is so hard to believe about that? Has this business become so money and market orientated that no one can understand my point? It's not about money - it's about music! I'm not going to pass on my advertising costs to the end user by inflating my prices, which is the only way I could afford to "join the club".

Am I speaking a different language, here?

[mirage]

...."I don't want a banner and I don't want to "join" the club.....am being denied that because I'm not willing to pay for advertising...

......"Am I speaking a different language, here?...."

Yes, you are. Dang, I wish Keyboard and EM would let me talk about my products in their mags without first having to write them each those hefty checks like I do each month. Spose they'll let me run my ads if I say I don't want to pay any more?

[Alan Lastufka]

Has this business become so money and market orientated...?

Yes, a business is about turning a profit. To advertise in any industry or area you must pay. No one lets me spray paint info about my company's product all over someone else's billboard along the highway. So why should you be able to come in here and post info about your product right next to ours while we are paying and you're not?

[_naturalstudio_]

Yes, a business is about turning a profit. To advertise in any industry or area you must pay. No one lets me spray paint info about my company's product all over someone else's billboard along the highway. So why should you be able to come in here and post info about your product right next to ours while we are paying and you're not?
Okay - a business is whatever you make it. I'm not about making profit; I'm about covering costs. If I make profit, great. If you find that hard to believe, fine. It's the truth. Unfortunately my approach is all too rare.

Whatever happened to word of mouth advertising? I have actively *never* advertised a product and already I have a decent amount of pre-sales.

"We're paying and you're not". Yes - unfortunately, that's what it comes down to. It's not about whether the product is any good or not (and I have nothing against your products); it's whether you are willing to pay the price to post here. Sorry, but out of principal that's not the way I wish to operate.

[_naturalstudio_]

...."I don't want a banner and I don't want to "join" the club.....am being denied that because I'm not willing to pay for advertising...

......"Am I speaking a different language, here?...."

Yes, you are. Dang, I wish Keyboard and EM would let me talk about my products in their mags without first having to write them each those hefty checks like I do each month. Spose they'll let me run my ads if I say I don't want to pay any more?
Let me let you in on a little secret here...

My product has been on the front cover of computer music magazine twice. The first time as the featured software. It has also been mentioned in the magazine on numerous occasions. I didn't pay a penny for this. Why? Because I gave away something for absolutely nothing.

I'm not keen on revealing this, as it's not been finalised and I don't want to put my foot in it, but: With the release of the commercial version of my product, I'm going to be in Computer Music again as the featured software on that month's DVD with a review in the magazine. I'm making them a custom version of my product. How much money have I paid? Not a penny.

So you don't need to speak to me like I'm a moron, I just have a different (and, I feel, healthier) approach to marketing my product.

[mcdoma2000]

I was very interested in the Larry Seyers group buy, but I don't want Gigastudio. I have Kontakt 2, and am happy with it. That's the reason I didn't get in on the group buy.

Mark McDowell

[PaPa Chalk]

Okay - a business is whatever you make it. I'm not about making profit; I'm about covering costs. If I make profit, great. If you find that hard to believe, fine. It's the truth. Unfortunately my approach is all too rare.

Whatever happened to word of mouth advertising? I have actively *never* advertised a product and already I have a decent amount of pre-sales.

"We're paying and you're not". Yes - unfortunately, that's what it comes down to. It's not about whether the product is any good or not (and I have nothing against your products); it's whether you are willing to pay the price to post here. Sorry, but out of principal that's not the way I wish to operate.

your really waisting bandwidth and hijacking this thread. I don't see what the problem is if you don't like it here there are many other great forums we are not stopping you from selling your wares there, but as long as you are on this forum you have to abide by the rules.

[_naturalstudio_]

If you feel so strongly about taking an altruistic approach to what you're doing you could just give your stuff away you know and solve the problem. :)
Exactly what I've been doing for the past five years, until the product became too big to make available as a download.

[FredProgGH]

Exactly what I've been doing for the past five years, until the product became to big to make available as a download.

OK, that's great and I applaud you (I actually deleted that post because I decided not to get into it but now I am) but having made a concious goal to "get by and not make a profit" you have to abide by the disadvantages as well as the advantages of such a position, i.e. "I can't advertise as much as or in some ways that I'd like to". You can't have your cake and eat it too. :)

[PaulR]

So you don't need to speak to me like I'm a moron, I just have a different (and, I feel, healthier) approach to marketing my product.

Hey Douglas - how you doing? :)

I love your old school approach - but you can see the point of what's being said here right? Imagine if you went over to say, the VSL board and started just advertising - what a scene that would be -haha!

It's a money-old world these days huh?

Not like the old days. Best of luck to you and your product - advertising has to be paid for I guess.

All the best.

[_naturalstudio_]

your really waisting bandwidth and hijacking this thread. I don't see what the problem is if you don't like it here there are many other great forums we are not stopping you from selling your wares there, but as long as you are on this forum you have to abide by the rules.
I'm amazed that you're missing the point. It's not about "selling my wares". In this particular case, I was trying to point out that Bardstown's isn't the first jazz kit. But, abiding strictly to the forum rules, I can't tell people what is the first jazz kit without paying you money first. People browsing this forum, as such, aren't being given the full facts; they are being fed information only from those who have paid to advertise on this forum. I don't buy into the whole "give it a break, just buy a banner" attitude.

If you don't understand my problem, I don't think you ever will and I can only imagine it's an intentional mis-understanding. That's all I'm going to say - got to preserve your precious bandwidth. This is also my last post on this forum.

Douglas.

[FredProgGH]

If you don't understand my problem, I don't think you ever will and I can only imagine it's an intentional mis-understanding. That's all I'm going to say - got to preserve your precious bandwidth. This is also my last post on this forum.

Douglas.

Well, I don't think it's good business to burn your bridges so fast. You just got two pages of perfectly good free advertising.

[PaPa Chalk]

:D


bardstown pays for advertising.

this is a waste:D of bandwidth. Go shop around for a free forum we are not the only forum you can post at. The internet is a great big place whats the problem?:confused:

btw trying to hide behind your proxy isn't realy helping;)
We're here I may even sympathize with you having an idea of who you are but sorry we cannot give you special treatment. All developers here fall under the same rule.

[Bela D Media]

AS POSTED BEFORE:

You see all the banners above your head? That is what pays for NSS. Why in the world do you see it as wrong that you must pay to advertise a product? 60% of our sales (and there are many) are because of PAID banners at NSS and KVR. Don't you think the guys that own the sites should make a few pennies since it is their forum that is making us $$$?

Now someone comes along and says, "Hey guys buy my product!!!".... think for a second. Why did he post that at NSS? Is it because he knows he can reach 150,000+ members that buy that type of product? Yeah, I think so. Now, is it fair to all the other devs that get smacked with advertising bills for this person to come along and try to sell products without paying for advertising? The same advertising that keeps the place he wants to Spam alive?

[jeffn1]

AS POSTED BEFORE:

You see all the banners above your head? That is what pays for NSS. Why in the world do you see it as wrong that you must pay to advertise a product? 60% of our sales (and there are many) are because of PAID banners at NSS and KVR. Don't you think the guys that own the sites should make a few pennies since it is their forum that is making developers $$$?

Now someone comes along and says, "Hey guys buy my product!!!".... think for a second. Why did he post that at NSS? Is it because he knows he can reach 150,000+ members that buy that type of product? Yeah, I think so. Now, is it fair to all the other devs that get smacked with advertising bills for this person to come along and try to sell products without paying for advertising? The same advertising that keeps the place he wants to Spam alive?

Well, I thinks its only fair to point out that (at least as I understand it) anyone can bring up a product at k-v-r without paying for advertising and there is very little censorship there (I know, "k-v-r is a cesspool", yada, yada, yada . . .). Of course, developers are encouraged to set up shop there and buy banner advertising, but anyone can mention a group buy emenating from anywhere.

Northern Sounds has a right to run this board the way it wants, but users should know the rules. Like a said before, knowing the rules, it would behoove anyone in the market for music software/sample libraries not to rely exclusively on this forum for information.

jeffn1

[FAL]

Well, the Larry Seyer library could have gone down to half price if enough people signed up for Tascam's group buy which ended at midnight on May 27 (I'm assuming it's safe to talk about it here now, because it's over). I bought a copy myself, but I was surprised at how few were sold (about two dozen, the last time I looked). I really feel sorry for Larry. This library has been extensively promoted and advertised, and was undoubtedly a labor of love for him. At the moment, it's probably the library that most takes advantage of GS3, and Tascam has been making a big deal of that. But two dozen copies sold at a slightly reduced price? That kind of response is not going to pay the freight, or make it worthwhile for developers to do projects that take a huge time, talent, studio and packaging investment.

I think most people knew about the Seyer group buy. I got several notices from Tascam, and saw references to it in a number of places. There's been a Larry Seyer banner up on this forum, and it immediately took you to a page that mentioned the group buy.

I'm really curious as to why this library didn't sell well in the group buy. Is an actual, official group buy promotion on NS essential to a group buy's success? Is this a problem with the format? Is it possible that not many people are using GS3? From here on out, does a library need to come bundled with player software to sell well? Is it a problem with price point? When people see GPO going for $139, does that redefine what they think software should sell for to the point that $399 (or even $199) seems too expensive for a library of just drums? Is it a lack of CP issue (in other words, since the LS library has no CP, are bootlegged copies circulating rapidly, hurting sales)?

I'm really interested to hear what others think about this, because if sales of high quality libraries continue to lag, I believe it's really going to put a crimp in the production of truly excellent, high-end products.

Lee Blaske

I would buy Larry Seyers library in a second if it was in Kontakt 2 format (and used the new Kontakt 2 scripting/convolution). I just don't have Gigastudio, though I was considering buying it just for this library :D

[Garritan]

Well, I thinks its only fair to point out that (at least as I understand it) anyone can bring up a product at k-v-r without paying for advertising and there is very little censorship there (I know, "k-v-r is a cesspool", yada, yada, yada . . .). Of course, developers are encouraged to set up shop there and buy banner advertising, but anyone can mention a group buy emenating from anywhere.


I just went through this at KvR with the GPO Group Buy and they have strict guidelines there. Yes, developers are encouraged to buy advertising at KvR.

But a developer cannot just make commercial announcements in any of the discussion areas as they see fit. Such announcements can ONLY be made in a special section called "Market Place". And commercial posts will be removed to that section of the forum.

I have found many forums to be much more strict than Northern Sounds with regards to commercial announcements and advertising. Some will only allow banner advertisements to make commercial announcements, some will not allow you to bump threads, and some will automatically delete posts without explanation - No discussion, no explanation...end of story.
Some have unwritten rules as well and I found that it's always best to contact the Administrator before-hand and run any announcements by them first.

Compared to other forums, it's reasonable here and developers have it pretty good at Northern Sounds.

Gary Garritan

[Bela D Media]

I just went through this at KvR with the GPO Group Buy and they have strict guidelines there. Yes, developers are encouraged to buy advertising at KvR.

But a developer cannot just make commercial announcements in any of the discussion areas as they see fit. Such announcements can ONLY be made in a special section called "Market Place". And commercial posts will be removed to that section of the forum.

I have found many forums to be much more strict than Northern Sounds with regards to commercial announcements and advertising. Some will only allow banner advertisements to make commercial announcements, some will not allow you to bump threads, and some will automatically delete posts without explanation - No discussion, no explanation...end of story.
Some have unwritten rules as well and I found that it's always best to contact the Administrator before-hand and run any announcements by them first.

Compared to other forums, it's reasonable here and developers have it pretty good at Northern Sounds.

Gary Garritan

(Insert Girlschoir from Giovani) Ahhhhhhmen!

[tobyond]

I would buy Larry Seyers library in a second if it was in Kontakt 2 format (and used the new Kontakt 2 scripting/convolution). I just don't have Gigastudio, though I was considering buying it just for this library :D

Same goes for EXS24. It looks awesome, but it is only relegated to one format.

[PaPa Chalk]

Well, I thinks its only fair to point out that (at least as I understand it) anyone can bring up a product at k-v-r without paying for advertising and there is very little censorship there (I know, "k-v-r is a cesspool", yada, yada, yada . . .). Of course, developers are encouraged to set up shop there and buy banner advertising,but anyone can mention a group buy emenating from anywhere.


jeffn1

There is a partial truth to this jeffn1. It’s not what it seems but we are not Kvr so I cannot give you all the details on that only the developers could tell you the full story.

what many people see are based on assumption. other than that there are many resources. The question is why are certian people so persistant about this site. what do they want? there must be something they are not telling everyone or the general public cannot see.


other than that every group buy here has been very successfull. there have been developers who made in excess of $100,000 to $300,000 in under a month certianly beyond the norm for one sample product.:eek: And the numbers shown are truthful as we are third party to these numbers. If a developer did the group buy seperate from a third party they could certianly inflate the numbers to project a great sale in order to get people to buy i'm not saying this happens but it is possible. We did not start the group buy concept but it certianly is not going away anytime soon. I guess the world is always changing and many hate change it's learning to adapt that causes problems.:)

[PaPa Chalk]

Wow:eek: Gary I posted and didn't read this. What I had to say certianly falls in line with this. We keep very quiet but much of what you said here is common practice at many forums. There are rules at every forum. If none there will be:D


I just went through this at KvR with the GPO Group Buy and they have strict guidelines there. Yes, developers are encouraged to buy advertising at KvR.

But a developer cannot just make commercial announcements in any of the discussion areas as they see fit. Such announcements can ONLY be made in a special section called "Market Place". And commercial posts will be removed to that section of the forum.

I have found many forums to be much more strict than Northern Sounds with regards to commercial announcements and advertising. Some will only allow banner advertisements to make commercial announcements, some will not allow you to bump threads, and some will automatically delete posts without explanation - No discussion, no explanation...end of story.
Some have unwritten rules as well and I found that it's always best to contact the Administrator before-hand and run any announcements by them first.

Compared to other forums, it's reasonable here and developers have it pretty good at Northern Sounds.

Gary Garritan

[jeffn1]

"But a developer cannot just make commercial announcements in any of the discussion areas as they see fit. Such announcements can ONLY be made in a special section called "Market Place". And commercial posts will be removed to that section of the forum."

Well, at the risk of beating a dead horse, this does not seem to be much a restriction to me. All threads are supposed to relate to the section they belong. I believe the Market Place threads are just as visible as all other threads (I always see them when I look at all the "latest topics").

Anyway, as I noted, you have a right to run this forum the way you like, as long as people are aware of the rules (and, hopefully, the consequences of the rules--e.g., that they might not learn about group buys started elsewhere).

That's it for me on this topic (at least for now :)).

jeffn1

[PaPa Chalk]

no problem jeff1:) I agree with much of what you said in the previous post. I was just commenting on the fact that there are many things that happen on all forums in which many people assume are taking place. I did not know about some of the things gary spoke of, but as a forum admin i'm not the least bit surprised at some of the things said there's probably more . I do know there are some forums that won't allow group buys period. thats their choice and I can't disagree with what they are doing not every developer/manufacture/forum/retailer like group buys:eek: . But your right every home, place of business has it's own rules:)

:) enjoy.

[Hardy Heern]

I'm amazed that you're missing the point. It's not about "selling my wares". In this particular case, I was trying to point out that Bardstown's isn't the first jazz kit. But, abiding strictly to the forum rules, I can't tell people what is the first jazz kit without paying you money first. People browsing this forum, as such, aren't being given the full facts; they are being fed information only from those who have paid to advertise on this forum. I don't buy into the whole "give it a break, just buy a banner" attitude.

If you don't understand my problem, I don't think you ever will and I can only imagine it's an intentional mis-understanding. That's all I'm going to say - got to preserve your precious bandwidth. This is also my last post on this forum.

Douglas.

Doug, I think you are a great bloke to have worked up your free samples to the point you have. I think anyone who produces free samples deserves a medal and there are a good few around, including payers, Frank and Alan (for example) and also people like Herman Witkam and also Gtown Tobias who asks for a Paypal donation. Yes, I know that there's sometimes reasons for the free stuff and I know there's no such thing as a free lunch but we certainly can't complain.....Thanks guys!!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

I think us posters really should be allowed to mention these websites but I can certainly understand that this could wind up the payers! I'm looking at other angles for some of this......there's got to be a better way.....it's not rocket science.

While talking around this, the forum owners and developers should also realise that not only does the forum give us posters a central place to post but they also benefit from all the time we (waste?) devote to posting. We do it because of our interest and the common love of music. We are not asking to be paid an amount of money per thousand words are we?

You get talented, professional journalists like Bruce Richardson writing sheaves for nothing and never a word is said. Without the posters the tumble weed would blow through the forums and developers would be better off with their own forums, just like SOL have done. Food for thought......I hope!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/ninja.gif (God this icon winds me up!!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/character66.gif and this one!!)

Doug, I suppose the best thing you could have done was to have just posted the fact that this jazz library isn't the first and just left it at that without mentioning which the first was. Not very satisfactory though, I have to agree. Good luck with your Computer Music deal (I subscribe to that and will look out for it) but you do realise that you have a deal there. You are benefitting from free advertising and CM get more content for there customers.

This whole situation at NS is very difficult now IMHO and I now find that I'm constantly having to think, 'should I be posting this?' and 'will this be deleted?'

Another thought. How about us posters paying $10 a year (if you really must make money!!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif.....perhaps I ought to start a poster's union!!) to have access to another 'inner' forum where we can give our honest opinions, mention Sales and Group Buys and have validated names, addresses and direct emails; where the developers are also allowed to join in but they must accept that their feelings may be hurt? Just a thought.

I'm also surprised that advertising rates aren't open because they are on some forums I've recently visited.....I'm learning more about this business all the time!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/ninja.gif What does this icon mean????

Frank
Say 'good riddance' to my little friends......http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/ninja.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/character66.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[drmathprog]

I viewed the demo of the Larry Seyer product and was delighted by its quality. However, it's only offered for GS3, and I'm through with GS. I had unacceptably bad experiences and support before it was bought by Tascam, and nothing that Tascam has done has changed my opinion. If it had been offered for Kontakt 2 I'd buy it in a minute.

[cjsm]

I probably would have bought the Larry Seyer Drums if the group buy price came down some more. I wanted them for GS3. But I didn't want them enough to pay $370 or whatever the final price was. I've blown too much money on samples already. And many hundreds of dollars of that have been on libraries which I don't use, and probably won't use much. That's the downside of Group buys and other special sales. I end up spending a lot of money on libraries, which might be fine in their own right, but aren't what I really need, and are largely a waste of money. Of course I don't realize this until I buy the samples and use them.

Well, I'll probably buy Larry Seyer Drums if they ever go on sale again, or if I have an extreme need for them.

[sporter]

In this particular case, I was trying to point out that Bardstown's isn't the first jazz kit. But, abiding strictly to the forum rules, I can't tell people what is the first jazz kit without paying you money first.

Gosh, maybe throw us a hint or something. Jeez, you've got me all wondering who this mystery developer is....:)

Regarding the Larry Seyer group buy, I was waiting on the price to come down a bit, but I ended up missing the deadline. These things have to be flashed in front of me often of I just forget about 'em.

Can't wait for the Bardstown. Kip's sample libraries are always in class by themselves.

[Mytheodos]

I ordered the larry seyer library this morning!It's a bit pricey,but compared to the 600 bucks i paid 10 yrs ago for my d4 module,its a bargain.Besides,i don't have a live room or a couple of quality drum sets,neves,api's,a closet full of high end mics.....This library and a great drum programmer,and i'm set for a while at least. :D Mytheodos

[clonewar]

I would buy Larry Seyers library in a second if it was in Kontakt 2 format (and used the new Kontakt 2 scripting/convolution). I just don't have Gigastudio, though I was considering buying it just for this library :D

Larry has said that GS3 is the only format that will support the library right now. I assume that this is because it makes heavy use of Gigapulse..

[FAL]

Larry has said that GS3 is the only format that will support the library right now. I assume that this is because it makes heavy use of Gigapulse..

And that's exactly why I haven't bought it. After all, if it was just a sample library, I would've done the GS3-> Kontakt conversion.

[Mike Greene]

I also would have bought it if it weren't Gigastudio only. I do use GS for VSL because my lack of other options make it worth it. But I'm not willing to fire it up for something as simple as drums. Yes, it may be better quality, but the existing libraries that pull up as simple plugins in my sequencer are good enough that I won't sacrifice convenience for a small improvement in sound.

- Mike Greene

[robin123]

I'm amazed that you're missing the point. It's not about "selling my wares". In this particular case, I was trying to point out that Bardstown's isn't the first jazz kit. But, abiding strictly to the forum rules, I can't tell people what is the first jazz kit without paying you money first. People browsing this forum, as such, aren't being given the full facts; they are being fed information only from those who have paid to advertise on this forum. I don't buy into the whole "give it a break, just buy a banner" attitude.

If you don't understand my problem, I don't think you ever will and I can only imagine it's an intentional mis-understanding. That's all I'm going to say - got to preserve your precious bandwidth. This is also my last post on this forum.

Douglas.


I agree with you 100%.

[robin123]

AS POSTED BEFORE:

60% of our sales (and there are many) are because of PAID banners at NSS and KVR.

What you should understand is that informative threads about non advertised products are not deleted on KVR.

If you compare this forum to the TV, this is one big infomercial channel.

[robin123]

other than that every group buy here has been very successfull. there have been developers who made in excess of $100,000 to $300,000 in under a month certianly beyond the norm for one sample product.:eek: :)


Do you know that they sold this kind quantity because people who came to know about those group buys went to other forums and posted information about the group buys?

Just imagine if the threads on other forums regarding your group buys would've been deleted!!! Appreciate the fact that what you ban here is what helps you out. I hope you can think about it with an open mind, with the shades of green off from your eyes....

[Bela D Media]

What you should understand is that informative threads about non advertised products are not deleted on KVR.

If you compare this forum to the TV, this is one big infomercial channel.

Oh really? Would you like me to fax over credit card receipts from Muse Research?

Your flag waving is blocking the view of real threads.

[Hardy Heern]

Do you know that they sold this kind quantity because people who came to know about those group buys went to other forums and posted information about the group buys?

Just imagine if the threads on other forums regarding your group buys would've been deleted!!! Appreciate the fact that what you ban here is what helps you out. I hope you can think about it with an open mind, with the shades of green off from your eyes....

This is 100% correct. I went and posted at the SOS and Kontakt forums a couple of times each for the EWQL Gold etc, Post pianos and Vintaudio Group buys.....and there were others. This helps the developers (which eventually helps us).....and, importantly, ensures that fellow enthusiasts are aware of the available deals. I particularly wanted the (relatively impecunious) Europeans to be aware of these. To me this is what the Internet is all about.http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

I must say that I wouldn't go to this trouble when the deal is 20% off a price which I would consider as being too high in the first place. The deals that deserve the greatest support are the brave price cuts which really make a difference. The only trouble with this is that there is a tendency to buy the libraries whether you need them or not!! You feel I must get that as the chance may not arise again!!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif I confess I haven't got around to using mine yet!

As I've suggested at other forums, recently, we need to have one central place where all the world can see what sales, group buys and promotions are in play. I don't see this harming the customers or the developers and I can't see any problems with this. It couldn't be simpler to run....as far as I've thought it through and I've already worked out a format.http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif I know that as soon as one forum adopts this universal promotions page all the others will have to follow. This would be even better for both sides.

Frank
Say 'good riddance' to my little 'friends' http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/ninja.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/character66.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Alan Russell]

I'm amazed that you're missing the point. It's not about "selling my wares". In this particular case, I was trying to point out that Bardstown's isn't the first jazz kit. But, abiding strictly to the forum rules, I can't tell people what is the first jazz kit without paying you money first. People browsing this forum, as such, aren't being given the full facts; they are being fed information only from those who have paid to advertise on this forum. I don't buy into the whole "give it a break, just buy a banner" attitude.

If you don't understand my problem, I don't think you ever will and I can only imagine it's an intentional mis-understanding. That's all I'm going to say - got to preserve your precious bandwidth. This is also my last post on this forum.

Douglas.


Douglas,

it is my understanding that Bardstown is the first Jazz Accoustic Drum Library due to the fact that it contains SO many percussive samples which accomodates all of the sticks and brushes. (be-bop, swing-blues ballads ..etc..) You need sticks and brushes and certainly a sizzle cymbal to have such a library of this magnitude. There are others that claim to be a Jazz library of percussion but their brushes are absent and don't even include the essential sizzle cymbal.
I've done demos for Bardtownaudio which I am proud of and I am not on their payroll. When a sound developer such as Kip Mcginnis and any other developer enjoys my group scoring for the Jazz-Pop genre, I make a contribution when time permits. If I like a library out there, I speak my words. I don't feel I am violating any rules here. We are here to share experiences which could save people from guessing.

enuf said..

Alan Russell

[robin123]

Oh really? Would you like me to fax over credit card receipts from Muse Research?

Your flag waving is blocking the view of real threads.

Do you think you can?

[Mike Greene]

I went and posted at the SOS and Kontakt forums a couple of times each for the EWQL Gold

As I've suggested at other forums, recently, we need to have one central place where all the world can see what sales, group buys and promotions are in play. I don't see this harming the customers or the developers and I can't see any problems with this. It couldn't be simpler to run....as far as I've thought it through and I've already worked out a format.http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif I know that as soon as one forum adopts this universal promotions page all the others will have to follow. This would be even better for both sides.
I also posted on another site about the EWQLGold group buy and was thanked rather than scolded by the people there.

I totally agree with Hardy's second paragraph as well.

- Mike Greene

[Bela D Media]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bela D Media
Oh really? Would you like me to fax over credit card receipts from Muse Research?

Your flag waving is blocking the view of real threads.


Do you think you can?

Here's brand new one for you. Now, kindly troll elsewhere.

http://www.beladmedia.com/kvr.jpg

[Ray Lindsley]

I can't resist posting my two cents worth about what's been going on with the music forums, and particularly Northern Sounds. I've been resisting this for some time because I'm more interested in the music and technology, and I have come to like pretty much everyone on this forum, all the developers and musicians and Papa Chalk. Besides, I'm not egocentric enough to fall under the delussion that my opinion matters more than the next guy, and I can really see legit arguments on both sides.

First, you can't blame Papa for wanting to make some money off the success of this site that he has worked so hard to make what it is- a source of information from some of the most talented people in the music- both composers and developers. Have things become too mercenary here? Perhaps, but opinion can vary depending on who you are listening to and, like most controversies, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. I think to a certain extent, this site has become something of an infommercial channel as someone has already observed, but I don't think that detracts from the usefullness, or the enjoyment.

I enjoy this forum as well as the Sounds Online forum and don't think that it has to be an either/or thing and I find it distasteful that East West sycophants have bashed Northern Sounds on that forum, and visa versa over here. Business relationships come and go as a normal course of doing business and that doesn't mean that either party wronged the other when a decision is made to stop doing business, and it should not be fodder for the court of public opinion.

There does seem to be a fair amount of censorship here, but that happens to varying degrees at all forums, and I am not privy to the big picture, so I don't feel qualified to make a value judgement. I suspect some is warranted, and some less so, but it is not my web site, so I'm not going to lose a whole lot of sleep trying to make that determination. It is what it is, and if I don't like it, I don't have to come here. I don't always agree with what goes on here (or at work, or at home, etc.), but as in everything else, it comes down to whether the positives outweigh the negatives. I think these icons alone are worth the price of admission: :n: :|:

Oh, and as far as the first dedicated jazz drum sample library- I checked out the Natural Studio library and, though it seems it has some useable sounds for jazz, I would not call it a dedicated jazz library like the Bardstown. The product is intended to be equally useful for rock and jazz. The drums are interchangeable so, unlike the Bardstown kit, they don't use specific heads and sticks for jazz. Also, the Bebop kick drum is a large Tom used as a kick. While it may sound appropriate, I'm not sure I would call it a jazz specific kit. It has some jazz appropriate symbols, but that alone doesn't make it a jazz kit- a lot has to do with the stick and the way the drummer makes the hit. I'm afraid I feel that, like anything else, if you try to serve two masters, your not going to be quite as effective as something designed for one specific task. However, given the very reasonable price, it seems to be a good value and a good product and probably good enough for all but the most jazz-centric users. I may get it myself, but I'm definitely getting the Bardstown library.

Too long winded as usual- sorry. Now I'd like to go on with making music 'n stuff.

[jeffn1]

This is 100% correct. I went and posted at the SOS and Kontakt forums a couple of times each for the EWQL Gold etc, Post pianos and Vintaudio Group buys.....and there were others. This helps the developers (which eventually helps us).....and, importantly, ensures that fellow enthusiasts are aware of the available deals. I particularly wanted the (relatively impecunious) Europeans to be aware of these. To me this is what the Internet is all about.http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

I must say that I wouldn't go to this trouble when the deal is 20% off a price which I would consider as being too high in the first place. The deals that deserve the greatest support are the brave price cuts which really make a difference. The only trouble with this is that there is a tendency to buy the libraries whether you need them or not!! You feel I must get that as the chance may not arise again!!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif I confess I haven't got around to using mine yet!

As I've suggested at other forums, recently, we need to have one central place where all the world can see what sales, group buys and promotions are in play. I don't see this harming the customers or the developers and I can't see any problems with this. It couldn't be simpler to run....as far as I've thought it through and I've already worked out a format.http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif I know that as soon as one forum adopts this universal promotions page all the others will have to follow. This would be even better for both sides.

Frank
Say 'good riddance' to my little 'friends' http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/ninja.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/character66.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

At the risk of being called a "flag waver", I think k-v-r's Market Place area satisfies this criteria. As far as I know, any developer can post about a group buy there. More importantly, I am not aware of any occassion where a consumer's post about a group buy started at another forum has been removed. In fact, the first group buys I hear about were sponsored here, but were disussed openly at k-v-r (Cameleon, maybe?).

I think these points are factual.

jeffn1

[Hardy Heern]

Thanks jeffn1, I'm not a regular visitor to KVR but I have started to go there more recently.

Cheers

Frank

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I also would have bought it if it weren't Gigastudio only. I do use GS for VSL because my lack of other options make it worth it. But I'm not willing to fire it up for something as simple as drums. Yes, it may be better quality, but the existing libraries that pull up as simple plugins in my sequencer are good enough that I won't sacrifice convenience for a small improvement in sound.

- Mike Greene

It's so phenomenally better than any other product I've heard, I'd recommend reconsidering that.

There are very few sample libraries I have heard in the last five years which are in the league of this one...all instruments, not just drums. Total classic.

[Mike Greene]

Hmmm, that's a pretty strong endorsement and I do respect your opinions. I guess maybe I'd better check it out after all! :)

- Mike Greene

[FredProgGH]

You know, I'd really like to do a drum dual between DFHS and Larry Seyer's kit. I'm not being a smart-@ss, both products are very capable and I think it would be very cool to see how the results of two people approaching the same project would differ. Someone post an audio file and a MIDI of a piece with no drums, let's put drums to it and see what happens. I'm game to do DFHS and I'm sure Bruce would do LS. There really ought to be two clips, one jazzier and one rockier. Any takers??

[Hardy Heern]

It's so phenomenally better than any other product I've heard, I'd recommend reconsidering that.

There are very few sample libraries I have heard in the last five years which are in the league of this one...all instruments, not just drums. Total classic.

Can one drum library really be phenomenally (implying several times) better than another anymore? I would have thought, after all this time, and after all this development, and with producers using the same drums and similar recording equipment that we could only, possibly, be talking about small differences.

Surely a drum is a drum is a drum? I wouldn't be surprised if most people couldn't tell the difference between the most expensive Drum libraries and a decent Drum soundfont......in a blind test!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

Now there's another idea to add to Fred's excellent idea for a drum challenge!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

The trouble is that the result might cause another forum frown. Would/could the site owners allow posters to publish the results of a test where, by common vote, an advertised library was trounced by a cheap alternative?

Frank
Say 'go away' to my little 'friends' http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/ninja.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/character66.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Let me elaborate, because I do think strong praise should be accompanied by sensible reason.

First, it is a long time belief of mine that drums should be played by drummers. Any of you who play piano know that as implausible as it sounds to some, there is a difference in tone between a piano played by a wonderful player versus a person who does not play piano. It is the experience in the fingers of engaging the mechanism, the deeper familiarity with just HOW a key is pushed in music. The choices made by someone who can play concertos versus someone who can play chopsticks.

Well, this is tenfold more profound in drums, where it's not just hitting a drum, but hitting the head in a specific place, with a stick held a specific way, allowed to bounce, etc. It's knowing how a drummer hits a drum. It's knowing how a particular drum responds, what its sweet spot is, how it fills space. And in a kit, it is knowing how each element of the kit responds in combination with the other elements.

So we come to this library, which is played by one of the world's great drummers on his own kit. That is the first, and very palpable reason that down the pipe, this becomes a drum library of distinction. These are the very drums that have propelled King Crimson, and have been played in arenas and on recordings by the player who played them. He knows exactly what tones they make, how to get those tones, and how they fit together into a cohesive whole that sounds like it's being played. This alone is pretty huge in the musical and Karmic sense of the whole.

Second, you have an engineer and personality behind the console and design of this kit who is extraordinary. Many Grammys on the mantle, many people in the business who will tell you nothing but good of this fellow. So, you have a product being designed by a profound musician and engineer, which puts another level of discernment into the making of the kit.

Third, you have a deeply connected relationship between the product and the host. This library epitomizes the GigaStudio 3.0 proof-of-concept. The weakness of so many libraries, not just drums, is the failure to engage the available technology in a musical way. Leaving potential on the table, so to speak. Larry leaves little potential on the table, he has wrung out every drop.

Fourth, there is a big factor in recording any drum kit--the overheads. Those of you who actually record drums know this. The overheads ARE the sound of the kit. The spots are only used as reinforcement. Many drum libraries over the years have been recorded by people who do not record drums for a living, and who do not have profound experience in what kind of setup puts a workable track down. Larry has that experience and the trophies to back it up. He gets the crucial value of overheads--then, uses GigaPulse in a very intelligent way to BE the overheads. This is an essential factor in this library's flexibility. You can dramatically alter each room's virtual overhead placement, and therefore, put the kit into a mix in a way very similar to how an engineer does when he's listening to the full band setups in studio preproduction. This allows you to get the track in the sweet spot before you even begin the mix. This is a phenomenon which is also very applicable to pianos, much the same. It's the reason some sampled pianos and drums are very hard to mix, unless you build the mix outwards from them. The way Larry is using GigaPulse solves this. And it shoudl be noted again, because it is important--this is a BIG deal.

Fifth, the way these samples are cut is important. There are two versions of each drum. One, called full attack, captures the "whoosh" of the stick immediately preceding the hit. It is just a few milliseconds...and if you've edited many drum tracks, you know what this looks like on a track, that tiny little ramp before the "eruption" in waveform. But what a difference in feel this tiny little sound makes. It gives the feel of kinetic motion and elasticity. The second version simply cuts this off, and starts right at the "crack" of the tone. The idea is that if you are very latency sensitive, you can program with the latter, switch to the former, and bump the track up a few milliseconds once it has been edited. Frankly, the difference in latency is almost unnoticeable in practice, but the choice is there. It is another distinction, another tiny but huge thing.

Sixth, I like the way Pat tunes his drums. This is the way I like 'em, rather wide open and slamming. The toms have some slap and rumble to them, and the kicks are deep and popping (although there are some choices in there which are much more compact). They have some nice tone to them. They want to rock when you do, and they can sing, too. Conceptually, I like the kit itself. It is a good, versatile, working kit...not just something that got pulled off the shelf. This kit has propelled a band at a high level. No small thing. Going in, at least you absolutely KNOW this kit works on the most fundamental level, and that it's being played by its "daddy."

Finally, I would say that a major distinction is what Larry and Pat chose to include in the way of hits as a collaborative team, and how those hits were mapped. There is a full octave of deeply sampled snare strokes, so that you have precise control of where the stick is hitting the head. You can use this so many ways. It gives you essentially many snares within a snare if you are playing what is essentially a pop/backbeat kind of track. If you are playing a jazz track, where the snare is being used in a more melodic sense, it gives you the ability to move around the drum's overtone series in real time. Ditto with the toms, where you can use the mod wheel to move the stick position from booming center all the way to a rim click in real time. This is fantastic for really edge-of-physical-ability kinds of parts, where you want to introduce the feeling that the virtual player is barely able to get from drum to drum. Rolling around that mod wheel a bit on tom parts gives them an increased level of excitement. It is also highly useful in situations like South/Central American and Caribbean beats, where the rims are used a lot. You can do it easily in real time, and this is just more programming ability--more ability to put down the part you want in less time. The rims are also available on separate keys, so that if you are playing on pads, you can attach them to the rim sensors.

Now...

To answer the question of whether this all makes any difference to an individual, that all depends upon the individual. I know that since I have been using these, I cannot even count the number of people who have commented on the drumming--not talking about the samples, but of the DRUMS. As in "those drums sound great," or "who did the drums?" So, people who are critical listeners are hearing what I am hearing.

And to go along with that, for me, it's just my own personal delight that finally, after listening to and programming with quite a few (but certainly not all by any stretch) drum libraries in my time, THIS drum library connected with me and made me feel that I had found a tool which I could really use. It gives me parts that I want to slam up front and center.

I don't think the MIDI file idea is workable. I will gladly give detailed advice for free. If you're going to put me to work, that's gonna cost you!!

At any rate, the reason I wanted to elaborate on my recommendation for this library is because I certainly do not want to mislead anyone into thinking what is important and meaningful to me might be important and meaningful to them. These are the reasons I recommend this library highly, because it does truly impress me in the ways I have mentioned. I stand by my recommendation in those ways. And if the things I'm saying don't resonate with someone, then that hopefully would help that person decide that "while Bruce is impressed with this library, maybe those things would be less important to me."

That's as clear and concise as I can be about why I think this is a standout product. I hope it is helpful.

[FredProgGH]

I don't mean a MIDI file of drums, just a guide music bed to work with. Each would program drums according to their own sensabilities and the strengths of the tool they are working with. Later, rendered drums could be remixed into whatever the original track was.

[Dave Bourke]

Thanks for your deep analysis of this library, Bruce.

I'm afraid I'm gonna be another "me-too" when I say I'd buy this collection right now if it was available in Kontakt format (I'm a Maccie -- Giga holds no interest for me whatsoever).

Kind regards.

[Hardy Heern]

Thanks for that Bruce! I tell you, you really ought to consider getting into journalism professionally!!:)

Frank

[fizbin]

You know, I'd really like to do a drum dual between DFHS and Larry Seyer's kit. I'm not being a smart-@ss, both products are very capable and I think it would be very cool to see how the results of two people approaching the same project would differ. Someone post an audio file and a MIDI of a piece with no drums, let's put drums to it and see what happens. I'm game to do DFHS and I'm sure Bruce would do LS. There really ought to be two clips, one jazzier and one rockier. Any takers??

I'll take you up on that (in Bruce's place). I've got DFHS/DFHSCV/StormDrum/Reason Acoustic Drumkits/Stylus RMX/Drumcore/Battery 2.0 so I have some experience with these things. In addition, on or about Tuesday of next week I'll have Larry's drums. Obviously we'll be tweaking the MIDI file to fit the sample set. How about processing - what's fair game? (EQ/Compression/Reverb/Mastering-limiting) Let's keep the MIDI file under a minute. I'm not going to be much good at jazz, but if someone's got a swingin' MIDI file I should be able to tweak it. Larry's kits do not have brushes I believe where some DFHS kits do, so we should not be comparing apples and oranges where possible.

:-)
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[FredProgGH]

I'll take you up on that (in Bruce's place). I've got DFHS/DFHSCV/StormDrum/Reason Acoustic Drumkits/Stylus RMX/Drumcore/Battery 2.0 so I have some experience with these things. In addition, on or about Tuesday of next week I'll have Larry's drums. Obviously we'll be tweaking the MIDI file to fit the sample set. How about processing - what's fair game? (EQ/Compression/Reverb/Mastering-limiting) Let's keep the MIDI file under a minute. I'm not going to be much good at jazz, but if someone's got a swingin' MIDI file I should be able to tweak it. Larry's kits do not have brushes I believe where some DFHS kits do, so we should not be comparing apples and oranges where possible.

:-)
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Excellent!! What would be nice would be to not use a tune that either of us have worked with, so as not to have an advantage, so it would kind of require a third party. As for processing, the whole point of DFHS is to take a dry kit and do whatever to it you would do with real drums, so I say anything you want to do with the basic sounds is fair. A standard rock kit with sticks is probably the way to go. A piece that would lend itself to interesting rhythms and not just a boring 4/4 beat- at least, something that could have some drums with dynamics would be good.

I'd actually be willing to do a few different kits/approaches to the same song just to show some variety... it would probably be fun to do with the LS lib as well.

At the end someone could render a "definitive" version of the music and mix the different drums into it so musically they would all sound the same.

Any thoughts?? (Anyone else want to get in on this??) :)

[fizbin]

OK - let's say that any processing is OK, except that in the end we should shoot for equal average loudness. We take an arbitrary MIDI file and tweak it so that it suits the sample set. This means that no hits can be moved time-wise. We can however edit velocities and of course choose appropriate articulations/strikes for any given hit. Also, no hits should be added or deleted except where a flam or drag must be programmed because one set has a drag or flam sample and the other set does not, so that the latter set's flam or drag must be programmed in, while the former's is just a single hit in MIDI. Does this make sense or did I not explain well?

Anyone got a good groovin' dynamic drum MIDI file with both hihat and ride parts, that is basically under a minute?

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[FredProgGH]

Oh, I was all for just programming something new that suits the playing style of the kit. I'm less interested in a "two libs shoot it out with the same MIDI programming" kind of thing as "Dude A does something with DFHS and Dude B does something with Larry Seyers and we hear what they came up with" kind of thing. I mean, we could do the shoot-out deal but I think it would be cool to hear what would amount to the equvilant of two drummers playing thier preferred kits along with the same song, playing whoever they want to play. It's a little bit apples and oranges but it also goves each person a chance to try and show their lib to the best advantage, playing to its strengths. That's more what I was thinking.

Otherwise, I could shoot you a file I did already with DFHS and you could shoot me one with LS and we could each do the other, if you know what I mean. That could be kind of cool too. We'd have to be able to allow for radically different key maps.

[fizbin]

OK - that's cool. How about we pick a song and program a drum part for it based on what already exists (?) e.g. we do the main groove for "The Immigrant Song" as well as "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag" - just a few bars of each, maybe A and B parts? - or pick a couple different songs which could illustrate versatility.

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[FredProgGH]

OK - that's cool. How about we pick a song and program a drum part for it based on what already exists (?) e.g. we do the main groove for "The Immigrant Song" as well as "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag" - just a few bars of each, maybe A and B parts? - or pick a couple different songs which could illustrate versatility.

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Hmm, that's a pretty cool idea. Although it would be nice to put the drums back in context of the actual song at the end. (I always wanted to program Tom Sawyer :D :D)

[fizbin]

How are we going to put them back into context properly? I don't want to play bass and guitar too - that's a little outside my goals for this experiment. Also, people are going to want to hear the drums bare before anything else probably. Tom Sawyer would be fine. Pick something very un-Rush then also.

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[FredProgGH]

How are we going to put them back into context properly? I don't want to play bass and guitar too - that's a little outside my goals for this experiment.
Well, that's my point. That's why it would be nice if someone had some usable music lying around to do this with. Acck, maybe the easiest thing to do is just the first idea, seeing how different libs sound with the same part.

[fizbin]

Having just had a listen to Tom Sawyer, I'm thinking I'd like to hear something with more dynamics, more feel. It's a great rock song, but you've got this tightly closed hihat for the most part and it's a bit mechanical sounding to me to begin with. How's about something from Stewart Copeland, Carter Beauford, or someone with a little more dynamic range. I don't want to dis on Mr. Peart, but hopefully you understand what I'm saying. We have a couple days to decide before I even have the drums.

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[FredProgGH]

I was really joking about TS because it is such a "programmed" sort of part... (though it would be kind of fun to do). You probably ought to PM me rather than doing all this here in the thread...