Batman Begins Soundtrack

[Marcussen]

If anyone is interested

http://www.so-net.ne.jp/movie/batmanbegins/

James Newton Howard is one of my favorite composers, but I somehow doubt I will like this more than Elfmans music. I'm not even that big an elfman fan but that theme from 1989 is simply perfection.

[Joseph Burrell]

I have to agree, although I tend to avoid these composer controversies.

The theme created by Elfman went on to redefine what Batman sounded like just as Tim Burton redefined what Batman should look like (look at the failure of the subsequent releases after they started taking the films away from Burtons dark moody atmosphere back to the Adam West style of thing.) The two were a splendid match and the fact that Elfman's theme has had the staying power of sticking with the Batman persona for 15 years after the fact says a lot for the composition.

[TNM]

I'm surprized nobody picked this when there were threads for Favorite soundtracks. I still remember as a kid waiting in line for about an hour to see a midnight showing of this when it came out. The Music the and the Main Titles were certainly like nothing I'd seen or heard before - I was blown away.

[tradivoro]

Hey how about the "original" batman theme from the 60s tv show??? ;) Actually, when the first Batman movie came out, I had a friend who went to see the movie and complained that they weren't using the music from the tv series... I was laughing for days... But the elfman score is definitely great... It'll be intresting to see what howard does...

[Marcussen]

Then click the link I provided :)

[jeffn1]

Then click the link I provided :)

Remember that horrible Prince song in one of the sequals. Sheesh . . . .

jeffn1

[Marcussen]

I actually only recall prince songs in the first Batman film

[jeffn1]

I actually only recall prince songs in the first Batman film

Ahhh, then I stand corrected.

jeffn1

[bye]

I'm no prince fan, but I thought his music was a perfect fit for the joker.

[tradivoro]

Then click the link I provided :)

I gotta wait till I get home... :)

[StrangeCat]

I love the Cues in Peter Pan that is the reason I like that James Newton Howard guy. The underscore stuff is really color full too but Underscore stuff is just well the underscore. I was suprised to see 4 orchestraters at the end of the credits for that movie though. I think maybe I like that movie so much is because of the score, some great themes in there :n: I guess I can't comment on the color used since well he didn't do the orchestrating.

[spectrum]

So which parts are Zimmer and which JNH?

They are both credited with the score.

Anyone know the story?

spectrum

[KC]

So which parts are Zimmer and which JNH?

They are both credited with the score.

Anyone know the story?

spectrum

There's one more person involved. Apparently another Media Ventures composer, Ramin Djawadi, was brought on board toward the end of the process...

Kaveh

[JohnCarter]

yes Djawadi for the few electronics parts.

[Marcussen]

So which parts are Zimmer and which JNH?

They are both credited with the score.

Anyone know the story?

spectrum

Nope - but I know the two are friends. I think the only way of knowing what music is by who is by knowing the two very well. I think I can point out most of it. Some of the underscore is quite similar to Unbreakable

[Ivan P]

I think it is quite clear which wrote which and which one were written by both ... nevertheless someone at another forum said the following:

"The beginning - big action Zimmer. Not bad, but rather blustery, repetitive.

3:30 - Howard. They are so markedly different. This is what I expected to show big when going between cues. Wink Haunting solo child's voice and piano here.

8:00 and 9:50 - Hybrids, interesting. Begin with low ominous strings. And, then the Zimmer synth beats kick in under.

15:00-17:00 - Wow. JNH totally. Looking forward to hearing that whole cue. Got chills when I heard his theme there with those major-minor shifts. Gorgeous. The feel of that theme is similar to the lyrical one in the "End Credits" of The Interpreter.

This particular preview of score, I'm surprised at how minimalistic it is, and deeply sad. And sustained and hymn/elegy like. (But, I also haven't read the script floating around.)

23:00 - Yes, beautiful. Reminiscent of "The Hands of Fate II", ah...and the cello at 24 min...sublime. The Village was an indicator - he's maturing. And then more of the material from 15-17. Smile Very nice.

It's clear where Zimmer's contributions appear, but there's a good 20 min of nice stuff there that is JNH oriented.

Eh, but after the talking, Zimmer in full force briefly (@36 min). He seems painfully obvious and repetitive (his repeated string figures) after hearing Howard's lovely nuanced writing. Brass theme was okay though.

Now I hope the film is good. Score will be cool in film. It's what I expected, but more finessed.

Makes for an interesting comparison, how little Howard has to use to be effective, and how much Zimmer uses to not come close to the same. "

[JohnCarter]

your review is full of clichés like : "the big repetitive blustery action stuff is Zimmer and the subtle stuff is Howard."
There are obvious the last samurai and the thin red line motifs and influences, but the man that wrote this review apparently doesn't want to mention this.

[JohnCarter]

It's interesting to note that Brad Detcher take part in the orchestrations. ( the two parts i think : Zimmer and Howard )

[Veron]

I`ve just listened to this soundtrack.
Some tracks has the Zimmerish-sound which I really like.

Also about Track 7, from about 1:10, I thought I heard this
kind of sound before. Thomas Newman maybe ?

[Alexcremers]

I wouldn't listen to this score at home but it fitted the movie almost perfectly.

[Veron]

It wasn`t Thomas Newman, it was James Newton Howard himself.
It was similar to "Unbreakable" I think .


I wouldn't listen to this score at home but it fitted the movie almost perfectly.

Looks like I need to go to the movies :)

[Thomas_J]

I love the Cues in Peter Pan that is the reason I like that James Newton Howard guy. The underscore stuff is really color full too but Underscore stuff is just well the underscore. I was suprised to see 4 orchestraters at the end of the credits for that movie though. I think maybe I like that movie so much is because of the score, some great themes in there :n: I guess I can't comment on the color used since well he didn't do the orchestrating.

For your information, "orchestration" in hollywood these days usually just means "transfer of midi files to notation software". I know for a fact that JNH, Zimmer, Elfman etc. orchestrate everything at sequencer level. Everything is in there. Every single little detail. They just send the midifiles to their "orchestrators" who simply adapt the cue into notation software such as Finale or Sibelius. Boring labor that the composer really doesn't have time for. Orchestrators can transfer about 1-2 minutes of very busy full orchestral music in a day, whereas composers can easily crank out 3-4 minutes a day on tight schedules. Sometimes both the orchestrator and the composer are working on multiple projects simultaneously, and this is often the reason why more than one orchestrator is hired in order to finish up in time. It's a very common misunderstanding. The orchestrators listen to the mockups as they go along. First they import the midi file, change around everything that needs changing to make sure the notation looks nice, tidy and readable (not a bunch of 64th rests and slurred 128th notes across bars etc :) , and input the correct dynamic markings in the score, as well as any other instructions that the orchestra/conductor need. They often redistribute string voicings, as many composers use full string section "pads", but they don't touch the instrumentation without asking the composer. Usually they don't change any of the melodic, harmonic or textural material either, but they may offer suggestions every once in a while if they spot something that looks like a mistake. In general they are asked to make sure everything is easy to play at the record session, so they don't waste valuable time fixing errors in the score at the recording stage. They may change a few parts around, or double a part or two - but really they're just adapting the midi score to paper. In some very rare cases orchestrators are asked to orchestrate from piano sketches, though. Orchestrators normally have a very indepth knowledge of the orchestra and while "adaption" is usually a more correct term, "orchestration" is a bit more descriptive, albeit misleading in most cases today.

[Daryl]

For your information, "orchestration" in hollywood these days usually just means "transfer of midi files to notation software". I know for a fact that JNH, Zimmer, Elfman etc. orchestrate everything at sequencer level. Everything is in there. Every single little detail. They just send the midifiles to their "orchestrators" who simply adapt the cue into notation software such as Finale or Sibelius. Boring labor that the composer really doesn't have time for. Orchestrators can transfer about 1-2 minutes of very busy full orchestral music in a day, whereas composers can easily crank out 3-4 minutes a day on tight schedules. Sometimes both the orchestrator and the composer are working on multiple projects simultaneously, and this is often the reason why more than one orchestrator is hired in order to finish up in time. It's a very common misunderstanding. The orchestrators listen to the mockups as they go along. First they import the midi file, change around everything that needs changing to make sure the notation looks nice, tidy and readable (not a bunch of 64th rests and slurred 128th notes across bars etc :) , and input the correct dynamic markings in the score, as well as any other instructions that the orchestra/conductor need. They often redistribute string voicings, as many composers use full string section "pads", but they don't touch the instrumentation without asking the composer. Usually they don't change any of the melodic, harmonic or textural material either, but they may offer suggestions every once in a while if they spot something that looks like a mistake. In general they are asked to make sure everything is easy to play at the record session, so they don't waste valuable time fixing errors in the score at the recording stage. They may change a few parts around, or double a part or two - but really they're just adapting the midi score to paper. In some very rare cases orchestrators are asked to orchestrate from piano sketches, though. Orchestrators normally have a very indepth knowledge of the orchestra and while "adaption" is usually a more correct term, "orchestration" is a bit more descriptive, albeit misleading in most cases today.

I know that this is the case in many situations, but I also find that some of Elfman's scores don't sound as if this is the case. For example Sleepy Hollow sounds great on first hearing, but as I delve into the sound more deeply it becomes apparent that the melodic and harmonic content is minimal and most of what I hear is orchestral effect. Now as we all know, programming these sorts of textures takes for ever and a day, so I wonder how much input the orchestrators had on this project.

D

[Alexcremers]

That's my major problem with Elfman. It's all "surface" music. The first time I heard Black Beauty I thought, wow, I have to get myself this soundtrack. When I finally bought the CD I was already fed up with it. That's what I like about John Williams, sometimes you need to listen 5 times before you "connect" to it. It lasts longer.

------------
Alex Cremers

[Rich Pell]

Well , According to modern mythology,the original Elfman Batman was orchestrated by Scott Smalley (studied the score with him in a workshop). Back then , Elfman probably wasnt conifident enough or had the time to orchestrate it properly. So, we studied how Smalley took Elfmans sketchs and " Wagnerized " them. The big Horn Voicings in the theme and the "Hollywood Grandure" are very Scott Smalley. I was amazed to see how much or the Hollywood sound that orchestraters are responsible for... there definately the unsung heros of film scoring..:) Rich

[P de Caumette]

To confirm what Rich is saying, Elfman early on didn't have enough orchestration knowledge to write full symphonic scores. According to Scott Smalley, Elfman has an amazing ability to learn quickly and he has developped these skills as time went on but for a few years, the orchestrator was doing a lot more than transcribing a midi file...

As far as Batman is concerned, a lot of credit should be given to Smalley for the result.

Check Big Fish for an Elfman score that is mostly orchestrated by Elfman (I don't care for it)

[Thomas_J]

Absolutely, but I was talking about how it's done these days, not 15 years ago :) Times have changed substantially. I have some copies of the Edward Scissorhands score, orchestrated by Steve Bartek (handwritten!) and it definitely shows how things were done back in the late 80's - early 90s. I've also heard all of Elfman's midi mockups for Nightmare Before Christmas among others, and it's pretty much all in there. In the case of effects, I'm sure Elfman's creative enough to just give marker details for the orchestrator to follow, but an orchestrator will play a greater role in such events. You don't really have to be an academically trained orchestrator to come up with effective creative devices for the orchestra, though. In fact, in some ways it's limiting to be too caught up with what's right and wrong. For a film composer I believe it's all about creativity.. and besides anyone who's been working with the best of the best for over 20 years are sure to learn a trick or two down the road. What you hear in a lot of Elfman's music is a tendency to leave things in, no matter how harmonically clashing they are. To me he seems very much like an impulsive composer. Moreso than any other composers in hollywood. I think he did a great job with Big Fish. It's one of my favorite Elfman scores. The finale cue is spectacular :)
JNH definitely orchestrates everything himself in Logic. His "orchestrators" are merely adapting his music to a format readable by the musicians. I've heard his mockups for "Signs" and seen the final scores. It's all in the mockups, guys. You are right, though. Orchestrators are underrated. They have worked closely with composers of the past to define the "sound" that so many of us regard as THE film music sound. Lots and lots of respect.. Still, times are changing and sequencers + extensive sample libraries have radically changed the way film composers work. We still rely on copyists and orchestrators to transfer our music from midi files to paper during tight schedules, but I expect this process to become less of an intellectual procedure in the future.

[Markleford]

Saw it yesterday. Hated this score.

I think I took a disliking to it mainly because there were so many moments that I thought would've been best *without* music. I felt that the music was overused to a manipulative degree, stepping all over the actual acting performances that should've been allowed to dictate emotion, mood, and character.

Then again, perhaps this was the call of the director and producers.

But that's my particular hangup.

- m

[JohnnyP]

Finding the thread interesting.

I really like JNH, and thanks for the link Marcussen. It's been a while since I saw it, but I really liked his score to 'Snow Falling on Cedars.'

I remember that score being very simple textures, but really plucking your emotional chords.

[Rich Pell]

Yea , I`m pretty sure Elfman and Bartek do all there own orchestrating now..and I know you were refering to 'nowadays' T.J. :) Whats interesting to me is that B.Herrmann and J.W never wanted to use orchestrators even in times when they could have used them...BTW, i highly recommend everyone studing with Scott Smalley if he comes to town near you..he`s a hilarious freakin`genius, Rich

[Looper]

If anyone is interested

http://www.so-net.ne.jp/movie/batmanbegins/

James Newton Howard is one of my favorite composers, but I somehow doubt I will like this more than Elfmans music. I'm not even that big an elfman fan but that theme from 1989 is simply perfection.

I don't get it. What is that video? How is it connected with the music that's playing?

[Marcussen]

The video is from a screening in japan.. and the music that is playing is - from the Batman Begins soundtrack :)

[KC]

I just got back from seeing the film. It is phenomenal. In my opinion, it is not only without question the most flawless superhero film yet made, it ranks as one of the greatest action films ever made. Director Christopher Nolan is an exceptional talent to watch for.

The score is incredibly powerful and effective, utilizing two identifying repetitive motifs that serve as the film's themes. Again, in my opinion, the score is fantastic. Both cutting edge and perfectly mated to the picture with expert use of excess. I would not have had the experience I just had without it.

Kaveh

www.kavehcohen.com

[letterboy1]

To those "in-the-know:"

Is there any kind of old-school/new-school division among hollywood composers? Is there resistance among the John Williams types to the midi way of composing?

[JohnnyP]

Kaveh,


I just got back from seeing the film. It is phenomenal. In my opinion, it is not only without question the most flawless superhero film yet made, it ranks as one of the greatest action films ever made. Director Christopher Nolan is an exceptional talent to watch for.

You are so right! I thought Memento was da bomb! Also, Insomnia didn't stay in theaters long, but critics liked it.

I think he's already got the dark, edgy side, of human behavior down.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

The film and direction were hands-down the best Batman ever. As was Mr. Bale's performance...top flight.

The soundtrack was very functional, but for the life of me I cannot remember a note of it. The sound design was extremely metallic, certainly the right choice.

My only critique, really, is that they could have lost ten minutes and no one would have missed it. I thought the rhythm and pace of the emotional and storytelling scenes was fantastic, but anything in the running 'n screaming department could have been tightened up by half and it would have done the film good. I would guess that being a summer-blockbuster type of release, Nolan erred on the side of what would appeal to the younger viewer. Everything that was there WAS spectacular, it just could have been tighter. This would have made a little different movie, though, throwing the balance even darker.

Maybe next time.

Definitely, Nolan distinguished himself. There was nothing easy about making this movie, and he did it in amazing style. All the way through, I kept admiring the pacing of the Gotham exterior scenes, and how much it put me in the mind of Metropolis. To me, it seemed that much of the production design was homage to Metropolis, even some of the casting and direction seemed to tip its hat that direction.

I read that the numbers are already looking sweet enough that they're at work on a sequel. It will be interesting to see if they keep the same team on board. I actually hope very much that they do. I'd like to see this group take some deeper risks, and build on what they've done. I think that this is probably the very finest "superhero" film ever made.