Which Soft Sampler?

[nemo_sim]

I'm in the market for a sampler that i'll be running with Nuendo on a PC. I've narrowed down my choices to Halion and GS3.
I'm sure they're both great, but i'd like to know which of the 2 programs will run with less errors/imcompatibility/compatibility(with other software and libraries).

I posted this on the Nuendo forum and got no response.

Any ideas?

[Alan Lastufka]

Kontakt. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif

Ok. So that wasn't on your narrowed down list. But seriously, in my opinion its the best choice currently.

HALion will work well in Nuendo being made by the same company and all that - but if you are on a G5, I hear some are having problems with HAL on the new OSX version.

GigaStudio is a wonderful beast, but PC only, so if you are mac, make sure you have a Pentium box laying around somewhere. Also, Giga doesn't work as a plugin with Nuendo, only as ReWire which I could never get to work 100%, but I admittedly didn't try very hard, 'cause I'm so happy with Kontakt.

Basing the next paragraph on the sales of my libraries personally, it seems the users are split up 40% Giga, 40% Kontakt, 10% HAL and 10% other. If that helps you at all.

WHich libraries are you most interested in? Are they in both HAL and Giga? If not, this may also influence your decision.

[jc5]

GS3 by far. Nothing comes close in functionality and that most basic and important of aspects - ram handling. It will get the most out of a single system.

[Przemek K.]

GS3 as far as I'm concerned. Great ( and easy understandable ) userinterface, Gigapulse, iMIDI rules and much more...

[KevinKauai]

Definitely Kontakt 2! I got HALion2 when I initially got Cubase SX thinking that they should make a good pairing. (I've no experience with any of the GS line, but they seem to be very "heavy" and full of hardware requirements that I just don't want to get into right now.)

Also, the live technical support from the Southern California office has proven to be EXCELLENT (after an initial shake-down period with changing their telephone systems).

my $0.02 ... KevinKauai

[Daryl]

Some people run GS3 as a VST via Giga VST Adapter and find it much better than rewire. Test it out as there is a demo available.

D

[Robert Kooijman]

My vote goes to Halion3.

It does not offer convolution, but makes up for that with plenty of useful features that are relatively easy to access.

Sample streaming performance is also very good with the latest version.

Editing in Halion gives me less eyestrain then when using Kontakt, and certainly less frustrations then when using GS3. I've given up the latter after failing to understand the logic of their sample-editor and error messages.

Kontakt's scripting seems very powerful and full of potential as the included libs and VSL performance tool alternatives discussions prove. So using both probably makes sense...

Just a personal opinion of course. Good luck with any choice you make!

Cheers, Robert

[Robert Kooijman]

Regarding your question to compatibility:

Both Halion and Kontakt still have issues with import of various formats, in particular GS3 24 bit format.

Only when using a tool like Extreme Sample Converter, you can convert these to e.g. GS2.5 16 bit, and import them. But still some intense massaging is required to get everything in place and working properly. Because of this, I tend to avoid GS3 libs.

[Ben H]

I'm facing the same question.

A couple of issues I face are:

1. Kontakt/ugly UI. GS is much better.

2. GS needs GSIF driver soundcard. Kontakt doesn't.

3. GS only supports giga files. Kontakt supports multiple formats. (Although you could puchase a conversion tool).

4. Kontakt is VST, DXi, AU. GS is rewire and needs another tool for VST shell.

5. Kontakt supports Kompakt instruments. If they are locked then Kontakt is the only sampler that will support these. And ultimately, more and more libraries are coming out in Kompakt format these days then any other format.


As far as Halion is concerned, it has a really nasty form of copy protection that someone on the list mentioned... can't remember who though.

Ben H

[rob morsberger]

Doesn't it matter what type of music you intend to make, with which libraries?

If orchestral music is important to you, then Giga is probably the best choice. If it's more pop-oriented stuff, then maybe you'll be ok with Halion.

Sincerely,

Rob

[tim rosvall]

I'd go with Halion.
It runs as a VST in Nuendo, saving you any problems with rewire etc.
Editing and creating instruments is, in my experience, far easier in Hal than in GS3.
While the dongle gets criticised a lot on this forum I can't see why. I've used one for a couple of years with no complaints at all. Respect to Steinberg for making an effort to stop piracy. Having read of the problems people have with authorising other software I'm glad I have a dongle - it makes things simple if re-installing is ever necessary.
Kontakt gives me eyestrain, so I can't comment on it. :)

My personal opinion, of course.
Tim

[Andrew Aversa]

Kontakt 2, for sure. My experiences with GS3 have been terrible - plus, it can't be used as a VST or DXi.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I would concur with the opinions that genre and end use has a lot to do with things. If you want a hardcore monolithic system, GigaStudio. Hands down, no contest, no competition.

If your sampling needs are lighter, a few instruments within a total production, just about any softsampler will do. Kontakt is excellent, and has some very intriguing features.

The best way to run a hardcore GigaStudio rig is with top-line hardware all around. Dependable, capable, and sounds like a million bucks.

[Robert Kooijman]

I don't see why GS would be in any way superior for 'serious hardcore' work as Bruce hinted.

Soundwise:
- Only Halion offers user choice of anti-alias settings, e.g. note transposing artifacts appear IMO less then in GS
- Halion filters offer more choice and are arguably superior to GS and Kontakt
- Halion offers more flexible envelopes and user choice of interpolation
- Halion offers many advanced sample triggering options
- Halion offers more flexibility with output assignment

Ergonomically:
- Halion colouring and font scheme means less eyestrain
- Halion reduces RSI since most functionality is easily accessed by just right clicking

Performance wise:
- Halion disk streaming is user configurable and very efficient
- Halion allows the user to passivate non used functions for further enhancing performance (DCA, DCF, Raw mode etc)
- Halion is less picky when it comes to DAW configuration

Integration wise:
- Halion runs both as a VSTi and standalone app as opposed to GS

Conclusion:
I honestly don't see any convincing reason for using GS, not even for very large orchestral set-ups. IMO, Halion is at a clear advantage here when you want to have ultimate flexibility and at least some fun with editing:)

[nemo_sim]

Fantastic info all around. At the moment I seem to be leaning more towards GS3. I've heard of a few guys who use it with no problems but they also have GS3 dedicated computers. I don't want to spend that kinda cash.

Also, my soundcard is a Tascam FW-1884. If GS3 needs a GSIF driver soundcard will it be supported?

[jeffn1]

I think GS3's kernel level streaming is more efficient than anything else. Bruce went into this in some detail in a prior post.

The trade off, it seems to me, is that to get the stability and efficiency that its capable of, you should set it up as a dedicated Giga computer, like a sound module. But, you do not get the benefits available of a VSTi plug-in.

It might be that Kontakt 2 scripting feature may give it the edge going forward, but who knows. The developers here seem very up on Kontakt 2.

jeffn1

[Theodor]

I recommend Kontakt 2 as well; amazing software, powerful features, great streaming and more developers are supporting it all the time. It's a big shame they removed the "Sample Start" modifier that used to be in Kontakt 1, that was great for creating legato instruments. I hope they re-enable it in Kontakt 2 and also enable it to be saved within the instrument.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I don't see why GS would be in any way superior for 'serious hardcore' work as Bruce hinted.

I don't hint, and that's not what I said.;) I said a hardcore monolithic system.

You may have been responding to my second paragraph. In my experience, when one is using just a few sampled instruments within a production, it is easy and convenient to use a plugin-style sampler. When one is using perhaps forty to sixty different instruments, it becomes extremely difficult to
use a plugin-type sampler from a management perspective. GigaStudio is more tilted towards that type of end use...128 different MIDI slots on a single monolithic instance. That was the point I was making.

But there are some other issues which enter the picture in my opinion.

GigaStudio has multiple levels of polyphony management which in effect deliver a far greater "virtual polyphony" than the attached subsystems can deliver. So if you are pushing a great deal of polyphony in real time, and you do not wish to resort to bounces and freezes as a part of the process, a standalone monolithic GigaStudio system delivers some palpable advantages. It already delivers the best polyphony performance for a given degree of latency, and can do so even when running convolution in real time. But with the polyphony management devices, even more virtual polyphony can be delivered. So a person who is doing primarily sampled productions with large instrument and polyphony counts IS served well by this difference.

The other aspect of GigaStudio that is unmatched is the convolution design subsystem. Kontakt has this feature as well, but it is not as well integrated yet, and its convolver doesn't sound as good. I think it was probably a hasty inclusion, aimed mostly at matching features with Giga 3.

GigaPulse is comparable to the best soundnig convolvers out there, and in some ways doing things that no one has done with convolution. People are doing stunning work with it. Larry Seyer's drum library is an excellent example, with its modeling of overheads and microphone placements all over the kit. It's almost like running an actual session in flexibility of sound. There's a library that has been in development for a long time (amazingly, not one which has "leaked" out) which will surprise the hell out of people...something very unexpected I think. There is so much design potential in GigaStudio that people are just now beginning to really "get it."

That is more the level in which I gauge potential and speak of the technology. Certainly Halion would be capable of producing professional work, and my intent was not to indicate otherwise. But when judging a sampler's merits, I tend to go straight to the design potential.

There are some things happening in Kontakt which are equally surprising and far reaching. The amount of underlying function which they opened up with the scripting engine is vast, and the various proof of concept instruments they bundle have shown some interesting potential. I don't see these kinds of developments happening in Halion, where the underlying architecture is not really keeping up with Giga and Kontakt. Perhaps I am missing something, though.

At present, it seems to me that the choices would be Kontakt or GigaStudio, depending upon what kind of end use and workflow is best for the individual making the choice.

[jc5]

To add a point to what Bruce said - not only does giga possess 128 channels, but it allows for patch changes within channels - meaning that it is impossible not to have enough channels. All instruments are loaded into a 'pool' and can then be called up by a patch change signal at any time on any channel, as often as you like.
I don't know about Halion, but I know that even the new version of Kontakt still doesn't do this - and having to run two or three instances of the thing just to cover the articulations for ONE instrument is the sort of thing that would send me to to the bell tower with the precision rifle...

[JonFairhurst]

I just finished scoring a ten minute short film in one weekend using GS3. I used a single computer with Sonar 3 and GS3 hooked up, and ran Vegas 5 and Sound Forge at times during the process. All this on an Athlon 64 3000+ with 1 GB of RAM. I didn't have a boat load of articulations, but featured most orchestral instruments, piano, drum kit and a fair amount of percussion. I ran two GigaPulse instances for near and far ambience and ran another instance on Larry Seyer's demo kit. I was running 640x480 video the whole time in Sonar. I probably put in 30 hours, and didn't unload Giga or reboot even once. The system handled everything I threw at it.

I'm thrilled with the results I was able to achieve. I don't know about the other samplers, but GS3 Orchestra is one of the two best software purchases I've ever made - the other being Vegas 5. My son edited the movie on Vegas, and he was able to do everything he needed with speed and precision.

There are opinions, and then there are results. :)

-JF

[Ouch that hurts]

To add a point to what Bruce said - not only does giga possess 128 channels, but it allows for patch changes within channels - meaning that it is impossible not to have enough channels. All instruments are loaded into a 'pool' and can then be called up by a patch change signal at any time on any channel, as often as you like.
I don't know about Halion, but I know that even the new version of Kontakt still doesn't do this - and having to run two or three instances of the thing just to cover the articulations for ONE instrument is the sort of thing that would send me to to the bell tower with the precision rifle...

WTF? Are you sure about this? I thought one of the main points of Kontakt 2 was that it can do program changes! (thus bringing it into line with GS1 :))

Can a Kontakt 2 user confirm the situation here? I was considering upgrading my 1.5, as the lack of patch change facility seems like an archaic restriction to me, but there's no way I'm shelling out if they still haven't managed that yet.

[jc5]

WTF? Are you sure about this? I thought one of the main points of Kontakt 2 was that it can do program changes! (thus bringing it into line with GS1 :))

Can a Kontakt 2 user confirm the situation here? I was considering upgrading my 1.5, as the lack of patch change facility seems like an archaic restriction to me, but there's no way I'm shelling out if they still haven't managed that yet.

Back before K2 was released, there was talk of patch changing being one of the new features, but since release more than one person has mentioned that this has not been the case (right here on NS)... definite confirmation on this would be nice?

[Ouch that hurts]

Well, I went and did a search on the Kontakt forum here, and there was strangely little about it - a few people had posted queries about patch changes not working, but had gotten no replies.

I then had a look on the NI forum, and it seems that the functionality exists, but doesn't work properly. Apparently you can only send patch changes on one MIDI channel per bank! So whatever instrument, on whatever channel, you try to change, the patch change will revert to the first channel of the bank.

K2 users, by all means correct me if this is wrong or solved. But there was a message there from a NI tech who said it was a bug and they were working on it.

Pretty massive bug to miss during beta testing, if you ask me. Doesn't inspire confidence.

[KevinKauai]

SINCE WE SEEM TO HAVE ***no*** Native Instruments participation on this board, I'll point interested folks to pages 58-59 of the K2 "Operation Manual" which states (in part):
The KONTAKT 2 rack is designed so that Instruments respond to MIDI coming in over different MIDI channels, but they do not respond to Program Change commands. The Instrument Bank is a special "container" for Instruments that allows selecting them cia MIDI Program Changes."
i hope this helps ... KevinKauai

[David Ferris]

OK, GS3 is superior for orchestration. But piano is the principle instrument for many users. If Tascam doesn't get off its collective duff and either write iMIDI rules such as the ones that Kornel, Olivier, and Xavier are writing for Kontakt or make it possible for third parties to do so, more people will be switching to Kontakt.