Realtime Harp Glissandos in Cubase SX :)

[vic_france]

New Edit/Update (07/10/05):
(even if you have only one keyboard, you can still do these realtime glissandos.. see the added posts later in this thread :) )

If you have Cubase SX2 or SX3, a second MIDI keyboard (ideally, 5-octave) or some other controller device capable of sending out MIDI note-on data, then you can now manicure your fingernails on the white keys of your main MIDI keyboard, while setting the glissando on the other device ;)

Simply download this special Cubase SX MIDI track (http://vemerson.club.fr/GPO_Realtime/Realtime_Gliss_Import.zip), open an SX Project of your choice, with one track set up to play GPO from your main keyboard (GPO loaded with one of the Glissando Harps, of course!), import the downloaded track, using File menu> Import> "Track Archive", set the input of that track to be from your 2nd keyboard/MIDI controller, and leave its output "Not Connected". The only other thing you need to do is to open the "Sends" section of the Inspector for this new track, and set the output for each Transformer FX to GPO, on the same channel as the basic GPO track. (Btw, if, upon importing, Cubase SX shows the "Pending Connections" alert, it is merely looking for the GPO plugin, so you can simply dismiss the alert box and follow the above instructions).

It is set up at the moment so that the lowest octave of a 61-note keyboard (MIDI notes 36-47) sets the 12 major scales...
C1-B1 (MIDI notes 36-47) = major scales
C2-B2 (MIDI notes 48-59) = pentatonic scales (one can usually get away with using these for major chords, especially if you also program the sound of someone coughing at the same time! ;) )
C3-B3 (MIDI notes 60-71) = dominant 9th
C4-B4 (MIDI notes 72-83) = harmonic minor scales
C5-D5 (MIDI notes 84-86) = diminished
Eb5-E5 (MIDI notes 87-88) = whole tone

N.B. It is important that both MIDI tracks be record enabled when playing/recording.

So, if for example you want a scale of D major, just hit D1 (MIDI note #38) on your 2nd keyboard (or program a button on your controller device to send out "MIDI Note-On #38"), and then play all the white notes on your main keyboard, preferably starting at a "D". It is set up so that every available scale starts on the white note with the corresponding letter, thus if you select C# on your second keyboard, the corresponding C# scale starts on C. Likewise, Eb starts from E on your main keyboard. I think I have maintained the (arbitrary!) rule, that on the 2nd keyboard, C#=C# (rather than Db), D#=Eb (rather than D#), F#=F#, G#=Ab, and A#=Bb.

Here (http://vemerson.club.fr/GPO_Realtime/Realtime_MIDI_Gliss_Cubase_SX_ReadMe.rtf) is a downloadable ReadMe file (mainly a repetition of this post!).

It is also a good idea to download the following Presets.xml files Here (http://vemerson.club.fr/GPO_Realtime/Presets_xml.zip), and copy them into the appropriate Cubase SX folders, as described in the ReadMe document included in the download.

It is even also quite easy to customize your own glissandos within the Cubase project, particularly if you are already familiar with the Chorder MIDI FX. I'll be happy to describe how to do that if anyone is sufficiently interested! :D

Btw, I would expect that it is quite possible to create something similar in Logic.

If all goes well, Happy Manicuring!:-)

[vic_france]

Just an update note, mainly for the benefit of anyone who had already read my original (non-edited) post above, and was maybe frightened off by the thought of having to use MIDi Yoke or IAC Bus.. I have redone the Cubase SX Project, in a way that makes initial setting up much easier... no need for MIDI Yoke or IAC Bus any more... basically, just download the Cubase file above, import it into your project, play the white notes on your main keyboard, while selecting the glissando type/key on your second keyboard or other controller device:)

[Garritan]

Victor,

The ability to do real-time harp glisses in real-time is a great benefit to users. This is a more elegant solution since it can be done on-the-fly. We'll explore ways this can be done on the same keyboard.

Thanks also for the The MIDI Files, The DP Clippings and the ReadMe file on this thread - http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34138.

Perhaps we could do a dedicated Harp web page with your files and the tutorials.

Thanks very much for posting this.

Gary Garritan

[vic_france]

Actually, it's very easy to do it from the same keyboard, if your keyboard can quickly switch MIDI channels (e.g. ch#1 plays the actual glissando, change to ch#2, strike a note (which sets the next glissando), then switch back to ch #1 to play the new glissando... it just needs the addition of a filter in the Input Transformer to each of the two tracks... I'll post more specific details in a little while... I'm also investigating the possibility of switching via the modwheel (no idea where that will take me yet!:-))

[Garritan]

Modwheel switching would be cool. Let us know how it works.

Thanks Vic!

Gary Garritan

[vic_france]

Modwheel switching would be cool. Let us know how it works.
Interim report: I've got it working already :)... modwheel at zero = play keyboard normally, modwheel greater than zero=strike a note to set the next glissando, then modwheel back to zero to actually play it, but so far it will only work in SX3 (needs a special event type in the Input Transformer, which was only added in SX3)... maybe after a night's sleep something will suddenly click!:-). Oddly enough, this version may take a little extra initial setting up (I'm just checking that now)..
EDIT: still very easy(in SX3) :).. this "Modwheel version" will import two tracks (one for playing, and one for triggering.. both to be record-enabled simultaneously.. you don't need to keep swapping tracks to use this).. the only new additional step is that you'll have to manually switch on the Input Transformer for each of these tracks (but the Input Transformers themselves load up ready-parametered)
I'll upload the necessary files (and update my earlier post) hopefully sometime tomorrow :)

[vic_france]

I'd appreciate peoples' opinions please (if still using SX2)..
There's another way of toggling between normal playing and triggering a new glissando from the same keyboard, which works even in SX2, but this involves either using a Key Command from your computer keyboard (simply toggles Record-Enable between the two tracks), or makes use of a Generic Remote Device (whose reliability only moderately convinces me in SX2..seems fine in SX3), and most importantly, a continuous controller, such as the modwheel, is completely unsuitable for toggling between two tracks (this is different from the method used in SX3, where the mod wheel works well). So the question is.. what should be used to toggle the function? Any switch-type controller should work (the sustain pedal is an obvious candidate for this, but would of course conflict with its other more conventional uses), or a note-on could be used as a keyswitch (but which note are you willing to lose in order to achieve this?... bottom A on an 88-note keyboard would be totally harmless for a harp, but what if you only have a 5-octave keyboard?). I'm totally open to suggestions on this :).

[vic_france]

While trying out various things, using just one keyboard, that work well, and others that work less well, I'm arriving at a couple of conclusions from the "user experience" aspect..
1) Directly triggering the glissando-types from a second keyboard is a much more immediate and intuitive method... if you are keen to do realtime glissandos, give serious consideration to purchasing even a cheap second-hand extra keyboard.
2) O.K. so this brilliant idea isn't worth spending a hundred bucks on ( :p ), so what's the next best solution with only one keyboard? Playing with various versions of this, I find that it's not too bad having to press a button/keyswitch/move a modwheel in order to acces the notes that set the gliss-type, but what quickly becomes counter-intuitive is having to press/move that same controller again afterwards in order to get back to the main playing mode... the worst of the options being a note-on as a keyswitch... think about it for a sec.. you've just played one glissando and you now want to play a different one.. you have to first play one note to activate trigger mode, then press a second note in order to select the gliss-type, then once again play that first note in order to get back to play mode, and only then can you start to play your new glissando. On the other hand, a controller switch, or even better (and it's the simplest solution if still using SX2), a key command from the computer keyboard, turns out to be much less of a "head twister". In SX3, the use of the modwheel isn't too painful either, but there is much better/more immediate/logical to be achieved via the use of the sustain pedal...1) As far as I can tell, it isn't being otherwise employed in any of the Harp Glissando presets (am I right in thinking that?), and 2) it "feels" logical.. you just play your glissandos normally (without the sustain pedal), then to change glissandos you simply press the sustain pedal and hold it down while selecting the new glissando-type, then as soon as you release the sustain pedal, you're automatically back in play mode!:). (unfortunately the same is not true in SX2, you still have to press the sustain pedal a 2nd time, so no advantage there :( [although I haven't quite given up on it yet ;)] )
There *are* other ways of getting this to automatically revert to play mode after hitting the trigger note, but very cumbersome to set up... needs MIDI Yoke in Windows, or IAC Bus on Mac, and two extra instances of the Generic Remote Device.. I'd consider that not really worth the effort.
I'd appreciate some opinions on all this, before posting lots of different versions, which I'm sure would end up getting rather confusing.

[Garritan]

Thanks Vic for all the effort. Perhaps Markelford can give this some thought and come up with a gadget. Tom may also have some ideas and I'll run this by him.

Of course you can always use a harp controller http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif with a MIDI activated pedal board.

Gary Garritan

[vic_france]

Of course you can always use a harp controller http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif with a MIDI activated pedal board.
Yeah, but I'd also need to hire a Gary Garritan to come and play it! :D

[vic_france]

O.K. so in the meantime ;)...
If you are still using Cubase SX2 (this works on SX3 too), have only one MIDI keyboard, and want to try out using Harp Glissandos in realtime (using a key from your computer to toggle "Glissando Select mode"), simply download the files in the original post at the start of this thread, having first read This ReadMe (http://vemerson.club.fr/GPO_Realtime/Key_Command_ReadMe.rtf), which describes the simple extra steps/differences.

If you have SX3, you might prefer to use the following method, where you simply hold down the sustain pedal while selecting the new glissando (there are also simple instructions for modifying this so that you can use the modwheel instead, if you prefer). It is in fact a very similar process to the original "two keyboard" method, but because of its slight differences, download this (http://vemerson.club.fr/GPO_Realtime/Realtime_Gliss_Sus_Import.zip) import file instead, and follow these (http://vemerson.club.fr/GPO_Realtime/Realtime_MIDI_Gliss_Cubase_SX3_ReadMe.rtf) instructions.
Similarly to the "two keyboard" version, it's a good idea to also download the following Presets.xml files Here (http://vemerson.club.fr/GPO_Realtime/Presets2_xml.zip), and copy them into the appropriate Cubase SX folders, as described in the ReadMe document included in the download. Once these are installed into the correct Cubase folders, it will be easier to incorporate these realtime glissandos into already-existing projects.

I am sincerely hoping that something very similar will be built into a script for Kontakt 2, so that this can be achieved no matter what the host, without having to forego the other "secret weapon" in these SX imports, which is that it is (contrary to first appearances!) very easy to customize your own arpeggios... there's room for 128 of them! (52 are used here)... the main problem being to find 128 notes/buttons with which to trigger them! :)

[Markleford]

Thanks Vic for all the effort. Perhaps Markelford can give this some thought and come up with a gadget.Thought? But that requires *time*! :p

Really, it seems the toughest part would be to come up with a control scheme that everybody can live with. It's been on my to-do list for a while, but still low on the priority scale simply because I've not had need to mess with the harp packets myself.

Is this high on everybody's wish list?

- m

[vic_france]

Hi M,
The "intuitive control scheme" is exactly the root of the problem, and as you say, anyone who is at all interested in this has his/her own idea on what they would consider that to be (which starts to smell like a certain amount of versatility is needed) (while at the same time, I suspect that the majoriry of users don't really give a rat's nether regions either way!).. if you read one of my earlier posts, I described that while trying out some different possibilities, there are some that I could live with, and others that are too much of a pain to use, but that is of course only my own opinion, and for anyone else to formulate an opinion of their own, they too must be able to try it out in practice, and in order to be able to do so at the moment, I think the solutions I have proposed (for Cubase SX) are the only ones out there, which seriously limits the park of people in a position to even get an opinion! :)
I'm also presuming that whatever "official" solution would already be looking toward the Kontakt 2 engine (and therefore a script)... I imagine you already know the two excellent harp scripts in the K2 library... I could quite easily picture something looking like their "Harp Pedals" script, with its seven buttons, but it itself needs to be programmable.. even a simple rotary knob for selecting which "harp button preset" to activate/edit, and then, of course (bringing us back to the original question), a control section where you choose which incoming MIDI data dials up these presets.
I do wish someone could actually try out one of my SX propositions, then at least there'd be something more concrete to discuss.. but I've found that using (at least a representation of) a keyboard makes it easy to recall where "C major" is called up from, or "Eb dominant 9th", for example. Then the *real* fun starts when (as in my latest offerings!) that keyboard is also the keyboard from which you actually play! (once again, in practice I've found that using the sustain pedal to trigger "selection mode" is almost as easy as triggering from a 2nd keyboard (which is easy enough, and fast enough, to change scales/arpeggios with one hand while continuously performing glisses with the other, without even losing a single note!... not that one would expect your average real harpist to do that!:) )

[Styxx]

Is this respective only to SX or will it work with SE?

[Markleford]

Unfortunately I don't have Cubase, so no test-drive for me! I also haven't got the K2 upgrade yet, so I haven't joined the KSP fun...

Is it important to have real-time control of the chords? Could they just be "mapped" to one octave range for keyswitching between modes?

- m

[vic_france]

Styxx,
I don't actually know SE, but a quick look at the "comparison chart" shows me that the files I uploaded would probably not be compatible.
This setup makes use of (on the "Glissano Select" track, but completely transparent to the user), 3 MIDI insert FX (two Chorders and a Transformer FX), and 4 MIDI Send FX (with another Transformer FX on each), plus, in the case of the SX3 "sustain pedal" version, a local Input Transformer on each of the two MIDI tracks.
I think that SE has only 2 MIDI insert slots (?), but are the other elements I just listed present? I know I can make a version that uses only one Chorder FX (but you'd lose the convenience of programming your own glissandos.. at least unless you also had a year's supply of Aspirine!), but I don't even know if SE has a Transformer FX (which is based on the Logical Editor, and as far as I can make out, SE doesn't have a Logical Editor).
On the other hand, SL is no problem.


Is it important to have real-time control of the chords? How many people have you so far counted throwing themselves over cliff edges because of the lack of this? :eek: :D

Could they just be "mapped" to one octave range for keyswitching between modes? Well, that would allow twelve glissandos, which would be o.k. if it were a simple matter to load any desired scale/arpeggio into any one of the twelve slots, for the purposes of an individual project, otherwise, for it to be "universally" useful, I'd presume you'd restrict it to just the twelve major scales, but it only really starts getting fun when you can quickly switch to dom 7ths, diminished etc.. Like I said earlier, in the above download, there is realtime access to 52 different scales/arpeggios! (in fact, room for a total of 128)

Just for a bit of perspective on this, my starting point was downloading the "Harp Glissando MIDI Packets", seeing what was involved to import the desired one into a track of your Project, and place it just before the actual glissando is to happen, and then thinking "I'd far rather just hit a note and then play the glissando!" :)

[Markleford]

Well, that would allow twelve glissandos, which would be o.k. if it were a simple matter to load any desired scale/arpeggio into any one of the twelve slots, for the purposes of an individual project, Yeah, that's what I meant: the composer specifies what goes into each slot on a per-project basis. Pretty useless otherwise!

And it doesn't have to be just one octave. Besides, even if it was, you could have a separate track/instance per movement of a larger piece.

- m

[vic_france]

Yes, that would be fine :) Looks like a job for a K2 script!

[Markleford]

Yes, that would be fine :) Looks like a job for a K2 script!Well, considering such a small handful of people have K2 in comparison to all the people in the world who need a harp gliss mechanism for their sample libraries (which aren't necessarily Kontakt-driven in the first place), making a more general solution would be nicer!

So, does anyone else have other control preferences?

- m

[vic_france]

.. making a more general solution would be nicer!
I know you'll build something that does the job perfectly.. (but what about us poor Mac users?)

[Markleford]

Yeah, I always feel bad about that! :(

Someone will just have to donate a Mac and all the software to me someday. ;)

- m

[vic_france]

Someone will just have to donate a Mac and all the software to me someday. ;) Don't you know ... errm... someone... who's just sold over 1000 copies of GPO? :|: :D
Btw, I don't think there's a single 3rd-party Mac MFX out there!

[Markleford]

Don't you know ... errm... someone... who's just sold over 1000 copies of GPO? :|: :DI suppose I do! :D But that someone probably doesn't want to be a sugar-daddy quite yet. ;)


Btw, I don't think there's a single 3rd-party Mac MFX out there!Well MFX specifically is a PC-only deal (based upon DirectX and the Windows COM spec). And unfortunately, Apple declared that they wanted no part of the proposed GMPI plugin spec that's intended to be cross-platform and host-agnostic. :(

Mac does have the continuing Logic development, though, which can apparently do wonderful things.

Anyway, for this sort of thing I might write a standalone control app to work through a MIDI loopback port, like my Controlta tool, so that people on non-MFX apps can use it too.

- m

[vic_france]

Hi again, M,
So does Cubase SX (on PC) use standard MFX or its own proprietry format? (the fact the the same Cubase MIDI FX are available in both PC and Mac versions)

...considering such a small handful of people have K2 in comparison to all the people in the world who need a harp gliss mechanism for their sample libraries (which aren't necessarily Kontakt-driven in the first place), making a more general solution would be nicer!I'd like to throw in a couple more points into the melting-pot, if I may...
1) A "generic" solution (particularly if not "Kontakt-driven") would mean, in the case of GPO, using one of the standard chromatic harp patches rather than the "Glissando Harps".. or at least initializing a GPO Glissando Harp with a C Major Scale MIDI packet first (otherwise the harp will play 1 semitone flat)
2) The other consideration with GPO Glissando Harp (and it's packets, whether realitme or not) versus "generic" (which would also have the bonus of being able to be applied to any *any* sampler/synth.. even when loaded with "non-harp" patches!), is that, in the generic solution.. which is, ipso facto, a note-mapper for incoming MIDI note-ons, when a particular scale requires enharmonic doublings (e.g. B# and C natural), those two notes would in fact retrigger the same sample.. and most probably in very quick succession... whereas with the GPO Glissando Harps, it would be two different samples (Bb, pitched up 2 semitones, and Cb, pitched up 1 semitone), which is, I believe, why these glissandos sound so rich and realistic :)

[Markleford]

Cubase has its own internal MIDI filtering, plus the ability to use MFX via a wrapper.

Yes, I'd aim for a chromatic harp as the output.

So far as doubled unison strings in the GPO Glissando Harp, I was honestly unaware that it did something like that!

- m

[vic_france]

Yep, the mechanism would in fact allow for an actual B# sample to be triggered, but, for economy, the edit group actually contains the Bb sample, but with the root note remapped.. most ingenious! :)