Ivory compared to other sample libraries: Can anyone comment from experience

[Raindog]

I really have most of the piano libraries out there and mainly use the Black Grand, the PMI Boesendorfer and Vintaudio´s Yamaha C7 (apart from the lovely Malmsjö Grand from artvista).

I once again had a closer look at Ivory. The interface looks sexy and the concept sounds good. Could anyone comment from his/her own experience how Ivory compares to one or more of the above mentioned libraries (together with Kontakt)? I´m not sure what to think of audio demos so I wanted to ask users about their ideas: Playability is an important factor which can´t be demonstated in an audio demo.

What´s YOUR opinion? Or in other words: Would buying Ivory give me any benefit over these fine libraries besides satisfying my plug addiction
Best regards
Raindog

[Andrew Aversa]

Seems like you have MORE than enough! :O I don't think another library would offer you anything particularly new. Save your money for something else.

[Raindog]

Seems like you have MORE than enough! :O I don't think another library would offer you anything particularly new. Save your money for something else.

You may be right. Funnily enough that´s the same thing my wife says :D

[mbmb]

i am also interested in this

i have pmi old lady, bosend 270, giga piano, vint yam c7 , the grand (steinberg) steinway le...but everyone is raving about ivory....

i hope a pc demo will be out soon to give me "peace" once and for all

:confused:

i have 3 hardware pianos....and are realy full of cra p when it comes to sampled pianos....

[johnamriding]

Ivory is great. Unfortunately I have nothing else to compare it with at the moment...

[runamuck]

Seems like you have MORE than enough! :O I don't think another library would offer you anything particularly new. Save your money for something else.


In my opinion, "more than enough" will happen when there is finally a library that accurately captures all the subtle nuances of a piano. So far, in spite of all the great work many developers have put toward the effort, there is still room for improvement.

The question in the opening post asked for first hand experience in comparing Ivory. Do you have any or are you just shoveling out unfounded advice?

Jim

[football]

I have PMI Bos, PMI Old Lady, Malmsjo, and also have Ivory.

I think the "playability" (for me) of Ivory is great. It makes me want to play more. That is one of the things that stood out for me after I purchased it.

I do still like the Bos a lot but prefer Ivory and use it exclusively now. The Old Lady never worked well for me for some reason.

I use Ivory as an RTAS plug-in with Pro Tools and it works great for me. I love being able to have it work within PT, it suits my working style very well.

The interface? AMAZING. For me, leaps and bounds above others I have seen. I used to try fine tuning the piano in Giga... Yikes!

This interface to me is how every one should work and hopefully most will in the future (as far as piano plug-ins go).

I am only stating my individual opinion of Ivory and realize most importantly, different strokes for different folks. Some people are gonna love it and some people are gonna hate it.

You (and all of us) probably need first hand experience to be able to judge best. Unfortunately the only way to do that with Ivory is to buy it.

Also, I know they have something up their sleeve that should be out soon. I don't know what the heck it is but I am very excited to find out.

I can't say enough good things about Ivory. I love it. By the way, I have no affiliation with the company. Although I would like them to send me money for saying nice things about their product :-)

[ehoskins]

I once again had a closer look at Ivory. The interface looks sexy and the concept sounds good. Could anyone comment from his/her own experience how Ivory compares to one or more of the above mentioned libraries (together with Kontakt)? I´m not sure what to think of audio demos so I wanted to ask users about their ideas: Playability is an important factor which can´t be demonstated in an audio demo.

What´s YOUR opinion? Or in other words: Would buying Ivory give me any benefit over these fine libraries besides satisfying my plug addiction
Best regards
Raindog

For playability and realism the three piano in the Ivory instrument are unmatched by anything else on the market. The Steinway is my favourite but I'm prejudiced because I was brought up on Steinways. I haven't bothered to spend money on ANY other sampled digital piano, although I have played / listened to most of whats on the market. When the Windows XP version is released this will be my first digital piano purchase. For me it comes closer than anything else to the real instrument.

[Raindog]

Thanks for your very helpful comments. I agree that my current libraries are excellent and maybe I don´t need anaything else. The sexy idea of Ivory though is to have my three favourite pianos in ONE interface with tweakable parameters. The aim of my thread was to find out if THIS works for the people who USE Ivory.

The other thing which I´m intersted is playability. There is some secret beyond perfect samples how a piano FEELS when you play it (though they will always miss the nice vibration at your fingertips when playing the real thing). Therefore I wanted to thank the people who commented on this. I´think I´ll have to find a shop with an installed Ivory and just PLAY it to get some impression.

[Journeyman]

Greetings,

I'd love to hear a comparison between Ivory's Yamaha C7, and Vintaudio's Yamaha C7. Anyone have both?

-Journeyman

[Andrew Aversa]

In my opinion, "more than enough" will happen when there is finally a library that accurately captures all the subtle nuances of a piano. So far, in spite of all the great work many developers have put toward the effort, there is still room for improvement.

The question in the opening post asked for first hand experience in comparing Ivory. Do you have any or are you just shoveling out unfounded advice?

Jim

Having used many of the piano libraries in question, my first hand experience leads me to recommend that he not bother getting Ivory, as the differences between it and the others he owns are not significant enough to merit another several hundred dollars from his bank account :)

[Dirk Pitt]

. I´think I´ll have to find a shop with an installed Ivory and just PLAY it to get some impression.


You've probably already gone out and had yourself a listen, but just in case you haven't Id like to add a side note. Make sure when you go out and listen to something as sensitive and dynamic as a piano sample you get the sales guy to let you hear the product connected to a hammer action weighted controller. This will greatly change your opinion of the product your monitoring, as it is meant to be heard using a real dynamically weighted controller. Don't always trust the sample you are hearing based on the particular set-up at the local music store. Something like Ivory is a labor intensive project specifically designed for the correct tools to be used to extract all of its meaty goodness out.

Really this goes for any Piano sample library that states that its goal is to provide the end-user with an authentic piano sound. If thats what the developers are intending then give that particular product its fair shot when demoing the equipment in the retail store or at home.

Rant over. :)

[Raindog]

Thanks for your mail. I want to emphasize your point as there is NO serious piano playing without a hammer action keyboard. I myself use a Kawai MP9000 which has one of the best keyboards I personally know.

In regards to Ivory I must say that after purchasing the ArtVista Virtual Grand there is no more need for me for Ivory. it´s hard to imagine, that any Steinway would sound better. Together with Worra´s pianos, Michiel Post´s Boesendorfer and Vintaudio´s C7 I seem to be really well equipped though the idea of having 3 different pianos in ONE interface sounds still sexy.
Regards
Raindog



You've probably already gone out and had yourself a listen, but just in case you haven't Id like to add a side note. Make sure when you go out and listen to something as sensitive and dynamic as a piano sample you get the sales guy to let you hear the product connected to a hammer action weighted controller. This will greatly change your opinion of the product your monitoring, as it is meant to be heard using a real dynamically weighted controller. Don't always trust the sample you are hearing based on the particular set-up at the local music store. Something like Ivory is a labor intensive project specifically designed for the correct tools to be used to extract all of its meaty goodness out.

Really this goes for any Piano sample library that states that its goal is to provide the end-user with an authentic piano sound. If thats what the developers are intending then give that particular product its fair shot when demoing the equipment in the retail store or at home.

Rant over. :)

[Hans Adamson]

In regards to Ivory I must say that after purchasing the ArtVista Virtual Grand there is no more need for me for Ivory. it´s hard to imagine, that any Steinway would sound better.

If anyone is interesting in a side by side comparison between Ivory and Virtual Grand Piano, there is a thread with audio examples doing just that here (scroll down on page):

http://community.sonikmatter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25826&st=0


I myself use a Kawai MP9000 which has one of the best keyboards I personally know.


I am a MP9000 user myself. Both the Malmsjö and VGP was programmed using a Kawai MP9000. The leaflet included with Malmsjö Acoustic Grand includes instructions how to optimize the keyboard response settings of the MP9000. These settings will also improve the performance and playability of VGP.

Also, a reminder that today is the last day of the Virtual Grand Piano $99 promotional sale!

Thanks,
Hans Adamson
Art Vista Productions
http://www.artvista.net/

[Ashermusic]

If anyone is interesting in a side by side comparison between Ivory and Virtual Grand Piano, there is a thread with audio examples doing just that here (scroll down on page):

http://community.sonikmatter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25826&st=0



I am a MP9000 user myself. Both the Malmsjö and VGP was programmed using a Kawai MP9000. The leaflet included with Malmsjö Acoustic Grand includes instructions how to optimize the keyboard response settings of the MP9000. These settings will also improve the performance and playability of VGP.

Also, a reminder that today is the last day of the Virtual Grand Piano $99 promotional sale!

Thanks,
Hans Adamson
Art Vista Productions
http://www.artvista.net/

Is there a controller only (no sounds) keyboard that has this action? I am currently using a Kurzweill PC88 that is very nice to play but is this significantly better?

[Dirk Pitt]

Is there a controller only (no sounds) keyboard that has this action? I am currently using a Kurzweill PC88 that is very nice to play but is this significantly better?

Currently there are only a few controllers that will give the same feel as one of these stellar digital pianos aforementioned. If I was to get an 88 key controller with weighted hammer grade action with *no* sounds Id probably go with the UF-88. This would be my first pick as far as controllers go, but Im pretty happy with my Motif ES 8's hammer action. ;)

[Ashermusic]

Currently there are only a few controllers that will give the same feel as one of these stellar digital pianos aforementioned. If I was to get an 88 key controller with weighted hammer grade action with *no* sounds Id probably go with the UF-88. This would be my first pick as far as controllers go, but Im pretty happy with my Motif ES 8's hammer action. ;)

UF88 manufacturer is?

Also, I have played the Motif ES8 and its action is fine but not as good as my Kurzweil PC88's Fatar action IMHO. Obviously this is subjective.

[Lougheed]

Best action, IMHO, for piano is the Roland RD-700sx. Yes, it has sounds, but you don't have to use them! (Although you probably will find them useful).

Lawrence

[Dirk Pitt]

Also, I have played the Motif ES8 and its action is fine but not as good as my Kurzweil PC88's Fatar action IMHO. Obviously this is subjective.

I have not played the PC88, but I know that both Yamaha and Kurzweil make excellent products. What I like about the Yamaha is the balance of its aftertouch with the use of your favorite "aftertouch enabled" VSTi. It seems to be very capable of feeling what you need it to feel. However I don't think its the end all to graded hammer keyboards. I also enjoy the numerous sequencing features that the ES 8 offers.

I'll have to go out and get my fingers on the PC88 and let you know what I think.

[Dirk Pitt]

WAIT!!

Im sorry I have played the PC88. I went and looked it up real quick cause I remember playing on a couple of different Kurzweil's and couldn't remember what the PC88 looked like. Well, turns out thats one of the ones I played and I agree, its outstanding. I may even like the "action" better on the PC88 when playing styles such as Jazz. Still I prefer the Motif for Classical and string arrangements though.

Oh and the RD-700 is seriously fantastic! I've always loved its instant love feel and ease of use with many different styles of music, very versatile.

[Hardy Heern]

In my opinion, "more than enough" will happen when there is finally a library that accurately captures all the subtle nuances of a piano. So far, in spite of all the great work many developers have put toward the effort, there is still room for improvement.

The question in the opening post asked for first hand experience in comparing Ivory. Do you have any or are you just shovelling out unfounded advice?

Jim

Jim, I think you're being unnecessarily blunt. Andrew was only pointing out to Raindog, quite correctly in my view, that when he, already, has a number of excellent sampled pianos he might consider spending the money on something else before jumping……fair comment.

You are also entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I don't think you should jump down Andrew's throat just because he's offering cautionary advice. Even Raindog’s wife agrees!:)

Also, you may have your own pianistic holy grail to pursue but in truth if there wasn’t another piano produced I think composers would survive pretty damn well with what they have.

I liken it to HiFi. There will always be folk out there with money to throw at the latest improvement and in the early days (like sampled pianos) these improvement WERE worth it…..but now the differences are so academic you need instruments to measure the difference. Whether some can hear the difference, or not, doesn’t really matter as long as the individual derives pleasure from the diminishing incremental improvements. What is pleasurable is the access to tonal variation which most of us could never, practically, consider with furniture pianos.:)

I’ve got a set of decent lugs and most of the pianos I hear…..even out of a mix are pretty damn realistic. I’ve been interested in this for 20yrs and remember the early analogue pianos and the genuine excitement when we could say….yes, that really sounded like a piano. Now we’re talking about the subtleties of sound, which are discernable, between various manufacturer's ‘furniture’ pianos.

Just my £0-0-6d’s worth.

Frank
PS My first digital keyboard was an 88note Technics PX7 which I still use as a mother keyboard! It still is a pleasure to play even though I have a number of sampled pianos. With me it's piano lust......... just for the variety. I certainly don't need 24 bit, and I'm not interested in paying for a keyboard that gives the total feel (the PX7 has an extremely good weighted action, as it happens even though it's '86 vintage!)......I do like the resonance technology though!:)

PPS The developers might be all over this post.....but hey, they would be wouldn't they!:D

[johnamriding]

I use a Doepfer LMK4+ keyboard - lovely.

http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm

[Laurent]

Well, this post is really becoming interesting....

The sound quality of all recent sampled piano are already great, very realistic in a mix, and maybe also for solo recording thank's to the last IR ambience / real string resonance scripting development.

But... why something is missing ? why pianists still want more and more...
And more what ?
More feeling for sure.

And I believe that a great sampled piano have to provide a great playing pleasure to. And this is closely link to the keyboard we use, and how the samples mapping is matching it !

Today developer are to much talking about recording technique, number of velocity layers, and so on. BUT matching samples with a specific keyboard to make the piano live and realistic is also a part of the artistry....

I am using a Roland RD300SX now (wich is NOT as good as the MP9000 but much more transportable) and I still find more immediate pleasure playing the internal sound (64MB memory... my god...) than untuned great 5GB pianos...!

So I ask : please please... developers please... In a perfect world I'm dreaming of dedicated patches (or velocity script) for each major keyboard of the market (roland, yamaha, fatar, kawai)...This would be really nice... Of course, there is still a room for "taste tuning", but... I don't know how a real steinway D is responding... So carefully, artistically dedicated patches for each main midi keyboard manufacturer would be SO great...

Alternatively : Please, please keyboard manufacturer, I will buy the first keyboard coming with a great (updated) velocity script library for all major sampled piano...

Let's dream !

[JohnGrant]

listened to the ivory solace v.s. vgp solace, the latter demo DOES sound much better.

jg

[runamuck]

Jim, I think you're being unnecessarily blunt. Andrew was only pointing out to Raindog, quite correctly in my view, that when he, already, has a number of excellent sampled pianos he might consider spending the money on something else before jumping……fair comment.

You are also entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I don't think you should jump down Andrew's throat just because he's offering cautionary advice. Even Raindog’s wife agrees!:)

Also, you may have your own pianistic holy grail to pursue but in truth if there wasn’t another piano produced I think composers would survive pretty damn well with what they have.

I liken it to HiFi. There will always be folk out there with money to throw at the latest improvement and in the early days (like sampled pianos) these improvement WERE worth it…..but now the differences are so academic you need instruments to measure the difference. Whether some can hear the difference, or not, doesn’t really matter as long as the individual derives pleasure from the diminishing incremental improvements. What is pleasurable is the access to tonal variation which most of us could never, practically, consider with furniture pianos.:)

I’ve got a set of decent lugs and most of the pianos I hear…..even out of a mix are pretty damn realistic. I’ve been interested in this for 20yrs and remember the early analogue pianos and the genuine excitement when we could say….yes, that really sounded like a piano. Now we’re talking about the subtleties of sound, which are discernable, between various manufacturer's ‘furniture’ pianos.
:D

Sorry. I WAS too blunt. But the basic premise of what I said stands, in my opinion.

I remember reacting to reading the aforementioned post because the poster did not say at all what experience he had with piano samples. Not only that, but there was no comparison, as was requested by the originator of this thread...just a blanket statement devoid of any useful information.

All too often I read people giving advice with no first hand experience. I suspected that was the case and I jumped.

That said, regarding piano samples I am picky. I used to rebuild pianos years ago and probably developed an ear for subtlety that most people dont have. I can spot a piano sample in a movie soundtrack a mile away.

I have yet to hear a sampled piano library that doesnt have some downfall, some weakness that doesnt show its face one way or another.

It makes no sense to me to own every library made, thats for sure. But Ill be the first to buy the next library that is more realistic than the ones I own.

Jim

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Ivory always sounds just a little harsh in the pp-mp dynamics to me...a little hard on the attack for the dynamic level. I just had the same impression listening again to a demo. This might be a tunable aspect of the piano, although it sounds inherent in the recording to me.

I have no experience with Ivory from a playing standpoint, however. That's just what I'm hearing in the sound. I like a little more "felt" in the lower dynamic ranges, a bit of softness of attack to "hide out" beneath, to get a larger range of articulations. That's what I'm hearing that I'm so attracted to in Hans's latest piano, that velvety, intimate, pianissimo that an acoustic Steinway does so well when it's set up right.

But I have to say, I had a chance to play two brand-new "B's" recently. One of them was a dream piano to my taste, and the other felt too up-front timbrally...the same kind of slightly brittle pianissimo-mf layer that I'm hearing in Ivory. So, I would not be surprised if that's simply the way the source piano was set up.

[spectrum]

Bruce...I'd recommend checking it out in person...the results are very different than the demos that are posted. My impression of the demos is a lot worse than playing the actual thing. It's pretty adjustable, and I'm not as impressed with the settings used in the demo files.

To me the smooth and pure pp/mp layer is really one of the best points of Ivory...especially on the Steinway. It's the polar opposite of a hard sound....it's just gorgeous.

It's really adjustable too, with the hammer amount controls. You gotta play it to really know. Check it out when the PC version comes out next month...especially with the extra velocity layers.

spectrum

[Raindog]

Sorry. I WAS too blunt. But the basic premise of what I said stands, in my opinion.

I remember reacting to reading the aforementioned post because the poster did not say at all what experience he had with piano samples. Not only that, but there was no comparison, as was requested by the originator of this thread...just a blanket statement devoid of any useful information.

All too often I read people giving advice with no first hand experience. I suspected that was the case and I jumped.

That said, regarding piano samples I am picky. I used to rebuild pianos years ago and probably developed an ear for subtlety that most people dont have. I can spot a piano sample in a movie soundtrack a mile away.

I have yet to hear a sampled piano library that doesnt have some downfall, some weakness that doesnt show its face one way or another.

It makes no sense to me to own every library made, thats for sure. But Ill be the first to buy the next library that is more realistic than the ones I own.

Jim

Sorry, I didn´t want to cause an argument with my initial thread.
The reason is, that I still want the impossible: A perfect sample piano together with a nice and tweakable interface with almost zero stress to the cpu :)

The thing that attracted me most about Ivory was (is) the interface. As I have no comparison of the sound quality, I wanted to know from people who can comment of this (owning Ivory as well as other pro libraries).

As I wrote previously: By getting (another) piano library which is the ArtVista VGP I think my search will be over for quite some time. Though I think that Ivory´s interface is still sexy it´s hard to imagine that the sound quality is much better. Though there are still features of a real Grand piano missing (even with this excellent library), it comes 90% close to the real thing (I believe reaching the last 10% maybe not possible at all with an instrument that includes several hundred years of experience and craftsman skills). It is a 16 bit! not 24 bit library and still it does sound great. There must be some secret how different producers record the samples and arrange the velocity layers. Amazing. Not that the other libraries are bad (especially Worra´s pianos and Michiel Post´s Boesendorfer), it´s just that I LOVE Steinways.

I got all these pianos in Kontakt 2 now and though the interface isn´t pretty, the script and convolution possibilities are nothing but revolutionary. I think even the established libraries will (and already do) get better with these possibilities.

So far I´m quite satisfied for the next 4 weeks or so :)

[Hardy Heern]

Sorry. I WAS too blunt. But the basic premise of what I said stands, in my opinion.

I remember reacting to reading the aforementioned post because the poster did not say at all what experience he had with piano samples. Not only that, but there was no comparison, as was requested by the originator of this thread...just a blanket statement devoid of any useful information.

All too often I read people giving advice with no first hand experience. I suspected that was the case and I jumped.

That said, regarding piano samples I am picky. I used to rebuild pianos years ago and probably developed an ear for subtlety that most people dont have. I can spot a piano sample in a movie soundtrack a mile away.

I have yet to hear a sampled piano library that doesnt have some downfall, some weakness that doesnt show its face one way or another.

It makes no sense to me to own every library made, thats for sure. But Ill be the first to buy the next library that is more realistic than the ones I own.

Jim

Jim, it takes a man to admit I'm right!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

I wouldn't dare to compare my abilities to yours, with your background. From other, but different, experiences of my own I can understand that honed abilities enable you to spot the things that others can't. Regarding pianos, I suppose I represent the average public (well, maybe just a bit above) although I have listened to a lot over the years and played a few pianos.....however clumsily.http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

The downside of your experience and very intimate knowledge of the sounds is that you're going to be very hard to please. This raises the interesting question.....it pays to take things to the 'limit' case sometimes. The question is this: -

When will sampled pianos totally sound like furniture pianos? (I'm not talking about the mechanical interface) 1yr, 5yrs? Ever? I mean, logically, there must be at date at which this will happen.....or perhaps that will be the time, realistically, when 99% of folk can't tell the difference? Perhaps we need to redefine perfection like that.

Another point is that the vast majority of furniture pianos don't sound any good anyway and most aren't maintained properly. So which piano sound is it that we are really after? That's why I loved Vintaudio's upright in that the second I heard it I was transported back to school days. I think that probably too many of the sampled pianos, are in fact, too perfect.....too clinical.....too perfectly tuned.

I've blahhed on for years about the need for total variation in all the paramaters of sounds and timing if you are after realistic results with sampled or synth sounds. Maybe that's what's missing?

Just some thoughts.......

regards

Frank

[Laurent]

When will sampled pianos totally sound like furniture pianos? (I'm not talking about the mechanical interface) 1yr, 5yrs? Ever? I mean, logically, there must be at date at which this will happen.....or perhaps that will be the time, realistically, when 99% of folk can't tell the difference? Perhaps we need to redefine perfection like that.



I think they can't, at least for live performance. We will never feel the strings and the wood... even with a great audiophile sound system...
Anyway, from a playback point of view, in a mix, a sampled piano is oftenly better than a average real piano recording (hard to maintain and hard to record !).

What to do for better sound ? random multi-samples per note x velocity ? A 100Gb piano ? more clever (and CPU) resonance/sustain...?
Well, I believe an underestimated problem is not the raw sound in itself, but more the sound/performance related issue (velocity layering, and so on)... Technology will not improve that much, only the experience and the talent of the piano producers !

A midi performance recorded with a too "raw" sampled piano might sound unatural and "sampled". Sometime, the layers are spread evenly across the velocity, wich is really bad when you sample extra hard fff layers... (I find almost always an improvement to squeeze them in the last 110-127 range... a kind of "dynamic expansion").
It's not always the case : the standard patch of the black grand is a good example of nice fff layering.

Well sorry not give any clue about the ivory... It's maybe the only one I haven't tried -yet-.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Every time I think that sampled pianos sound like real pianos, I try to find time to play a real one. Then I realize they're nothing alike. I played a C7 a few days ago, and it was really lovely. Not a "D," but what is?

There is just no comparison at all. That "last 10%" is a big whopper of a 10%. It's not even what they sound like, at some point, it's how and what a beautiful piano makes you play. It transforms you, and you become one with it, one machine. I forget myself playing a sampled piano now and then, but not often, and not immediately like playing an acoustic instrument.

No matter how much resonance modeling you build into a sampled piano, it's just nothing like sitting at a real one, and filling that huge heavy thing with vibrations.

Hint: I'll tell you guys about one great combo, though, and many of you probably have it. If you have GigaStudio 3.0, and the White Grand, load up White Grand and run it through the pedal up instance of GigaPulse, original mic "none," replacement mic "4038 emulated." If you have a Fatar controller, set the velocity curve at "2," if not, just use a velocity curve which has a little scoop (i.e., favors the low end).

You won't find many better feeling and sounding libraries than that. It's really amazing and beautiful. The resonance modeling and the 4038 curve really bring out the low end growl, and favoring the lower end of the velocity sampling gives a nice mellow range of playing which will bite hard if you lean into it.

[football]

Hijack Alert:

Bruce, how is that Fatar as a piano controller?

I recently got a CME UF8 and (to me) it is absolutely dreadful. The velocity range is very limited (I compared to a PC88) and the action is crappy. The main reason I got it was to trigger a piano and for this it is quite poor.

I complete disagree with the favorable reviews of this. If someone likes it come buy mine (cheap!).

I want to replace it with something (not too expensive).

I see some people saying the Roland 700 is great but it's over $2K.

THREAD BACK ON TOPIC: I have Ivory and some other great pianos. I still love Ivory and it is my go to piano sound. I am buying Hans piano today and am looking forward to doing my own comparison of that.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Hijack Alert:

Bruce, how is that Fatar as a piano controller?

For what I paid (not that much) I think it is a pretty good controller. I got the SL-880. The keys are a little "deep" compared to an actual piano, but I actually see the logic in the design--you can play it with a good degree of control. Some controllers with a key depth that feels more like a piano feel less dynamically controllable to me.

I wouldn't consider it a "great" controller. It is a simple beast, not much in the way of really advanced features at all...a very basic feature set. However, I have found it to be highly functional, and I have used it in the studio just about every day for the last five years with no problems--as well as having taken it out on many gigs. It's sturdy.

[Raindog]

Every time I think that sampled pianos sound like real pianos, I try to find time to play a real one. Then I realize they're nothing alike. I played a C7 a few days ago, and it was really lovely. Not a "D," but what is?

There is just no comparison at all. That "last 10%" is a big whopper of a 10%. It's not even what they sound like, at some point, it's how and what a beautiful piano makes you play. It transforms you, and you become one with it, one machine. I forget myself playing a sampled piano now and then, but not often, and not immediately like playing an acoustic instrument.

No matter how much resonance modeling you build into a sampled piano, it's just nothing like sitting at a real one, and filling that huge heavy thing with vibrations.

Hint: I'll tell you guys about one great combo, though, and many of you probably have it. If you have GigaStudio 3.0, and the White Grand, load up White Grand and run it through the pedal up instance of GigaPulse, original mic "none," replacement mic "4038 emulated." If you have a Fatar controller, set the velocity curve at "2," if not, just use a velocity curve which has a little scoop (i.e., favors the low end).

You won't find many better feeling and sounding libraries than that. It's really amazing and beautiful. The resonance modeling and the 4038 curve really bring out the low end growl, and favoring the lower end of the velocity sampling gives a nice mellow range of playing which will bite hard if you lean into it.

One thing where you judge wrong in my opinion (or at least you expect too much): Sampled pianos will NEVER sound like a real piano which you play to and listen to in a natural environment as they are RECORDED pianos. It is impossible either with a headphone or loudspeakers to get the acoustical impression of a real piano (not even to speak about the feeling with all these little vibrations at your fingertips coming from actually vibrating strings).

When it comes to RECORDED pianos, then it´s a totally different thing. In my opinion there are indeed only 10% (if so after all) missing to a perfectly miked Steinway, Boesendorfer or whatever. This is where sampled pianos are in the race. They are no acoustical instruments but recorded instruments.

[Laurent]

Every time I think that sampled pianos sound like real pianos, I try to find time to play a real one. Then I realize they're nothing alike. I played a C7 a few days ago, and it was really lovely. Not a "D," but what is?

There is just no comparison at all. That "last 10%" is a big whopper of a 10%. It's not even what they sound like, at some point, it's how and what a beautiful piano makes you play. It transforms you, and you become one with it, one machine. I forget myself playing a sampled piano now and then, but not often, and not immediately like playing an acoustic instrument.

No matter how much resonance modeling you build into a sampled piano, it's just nothing like sitting at a real one, and filling that huge heavy thing with vibrations.



I've played a C7 recently to, and I must say that every controller is a light plastic toy (or wood toy, sorry Kawai) compared to this machine...

"How and what a beautiful piano makes you play" this is really the key point. Mp3 demo means nothing to me. Sometime sampled piano can make this alchemy, but the winner are not always the "technically" best recorded ones...

It's a pity we can't easily try those pianos before buying... I am waiting my Artvista virtual grand with great expectations... but I'm relying only on users comments...

I'm afraid I will have to do so for the Ivory.

[JohnGrant]

Every time I think that sampled pianos sound like real pianos, I try to find time to play a real one. Then I realize they're nothing alike. I played a C7 a few days ago, and it was really lovely. Not a "D," but what is?

There is just no comparison at all. That "last 10%" is a big whopper of a 10%. It's not even what they sound like, at some point, it's how and what a beautiful piano makes you play. It transforms you, and you become one with it, one machine. I forget myself playing a sampled piano now and then, but not often, and not immediately like playing an acoustic instrument.

No matter how much resonance modeling you build into a sampled piano, it's just nothing like sitting at a real one, and filling that huge heavy thing with vibrations.


absolutely. that's why for me the real power of the sampled piano is as an affordable way to make professional quality recorded piano music. in this realm the really good samples are indistinguishable from any other recorded piano.

jg

[football]

Thanks for the info Bruce. I will have to check that Fatar out.

[Fastonkeys]

Hey Football,

Thanks for heads up on the CME UF8. I was just about to invest in some drive time to go look at one of those. I SURE like the advertised concept and the additional of the BC3 controller is long-overdue. But the price point sounded too good to be true, and this confirms it.

IMO, Yamaha is the only answer as far as controllers go. Problem is, that the best action is on their P series (such as the P250), but the MIDI options are far more comprehensive on the S series. I have both the P250 and the S90 and really could care less about the sound modules; for me it's been endless pursuit of the ideal controller. Closest I've found is the KX88, but those are hard to come by in reasonable shape. And the KX88 action is the "first version" of what Yamaha eventually put into their P models years back.

I say we lobby Yamaha to build a MIDI controller with the P250 graded hammer action and the goodies of the S90 (like BC3 input) and leave the sound modules off. Just a bad ~~~ weighted controller.

I've tried the new Roland 700, and it's too bad, but still not as good as a Yamaha S90 (and no where near close to a P250).

I sure wish an entity like Yamaha would get back into the professional controller business!

[Fastonkeys]

One clarification... my comment about caring less about the sound modules was related to the sound modules on board the S90 or P250. Like (I presume) most of you, there's no comparison to ROM samples to that of the numerous libraries listed in this thread. My inventory is:

- All the PMI products in Giga 3, the Bosendorfer being my preferred
- White Grand, Virtual Grand, Maljsmo
- And I'll definitely acquire Ivory once it's released on XP

Can't ever have enough to choose from, but I agree, there's no substitute for the real thing. I just use the samples for recording. When I want to play, exit the studio an onto the Steinway. We're asking the impossible for technology to emulate a concert grand... maybe in the recorded sense (as Bruce said), but never in the feel because the vibration of the keys is as much a source (and arguably better source) of feedback as is the sound itself, no? :o

[spectrum]

My favorite controller for Ivory is my Yamaha Acoustic Grand Piano! (which has MIDI output)

:-)

spectrum

[Jaimo]

My favorite controller for Ivory is my Yamaha Acoustic Grand Piano! (which has MIDI output)

:-)


Bragger! ;) :)

[spectrum]

Maybe...but it is the best feeling weighted controller out there! ;-)

[Ashermusic]

My favorite controller for Ivory is my Yamaha Acoustic Grand Piano! (which has MIDI output)

:-)

spectrum

I seriously hate you :)

[Hardy Heern]

Every time I think that sampled pianos sound like real pianos, I try to find time to play a real one. Then I realize they're nothing alike. I played a C7 a few days ago, and it was really lovely. Not a "D," but what is?

There is just no comparison at all. That "last 10%" is a big whopper of a 10%. It's not even what they sound like, at some point, it's how and what a beautiful piano makes you play. It transforms you, and you become one with it, one machine. I forget myself playing a sampled piano now and then, but not often, and not immediately like playing an acoustic instrument.

No matter how much resonance modeling you build into a sampled piano, it's just nothing like sitting at a real one, and filling that huge heavy thing with vibrations.

Hint: I'll tell you guys about one great combo, though, and many of you probably have it. If you have GigaStudio 3.0, and the White Grand, load up White Grand and run it through the pedal up instance of GigaPulse, original mic "none," replacement mic "4038 emulated." If you have a Fatar controller, set the velocity curve at "2," if not, just use a velocity curve which has a little scoop (i.e., favors the low end).

You won't find many better feeling and sounding libraries than that. It's really amazing and beautiful. The resonance modeling and the 4038 curve really bring out the low end growl, and favoring the lower end of the velocity sampling gives a nice mellow range of playing which will bite hard if you lean into it.

Hi Bruce,

I think a few folk didn't read my post where I purposely excluded the mechanical interface in the debate. However, even this could be improved somewhat with electrical (piezo) buzzers (vibrators) to energise and give feel to the keyboard for example...anything would help the mechanical interface experience. I'm told there are those who believe that vibrators are actually better than the natural equivalent.....so there's hope for virtual pianos yet!:)

I actually totally agree with you regarding the 'whole' experience and in a recent visit to an old friend, I hadn't seen for 16yrs, I was able to try his wife's upright which was the first proper furniture piano I had tried for 15yrs!! (ignoring my music teacher's Kawai Electric Grand.....which is another story).

You're totally correct the whole thing becomes alive to the touch.

With sampled pianos, I have almost always play with headphones (by choice) and listen to myself as if I was listening to a (pianistically,crappy, it has to be said) recording. I don't actually imagine myself in front of a normal piano. I know what I mean........:)

Cheers

Frank

[quantum7]

I'm sold! I will be patiently waiting for the PC version of Ivory next month.

[Lougheed]

I'm sold! I will be patiently waiting for the PC version of Ivory next month.

I've never understood why there has been any wait at all. It seems that other samples are released for both Mac and PC at the same time. Art Vista Virtual Grand being an example.

Why the wait for so long in this case is a wonder!

Lawrence

[sporter]

absolutely. that's why for me the real power of the sampled piano is as an affordable way to make professional quality recorded piano music. in this realm the really good samples are indistinguishable from any other recorded piano.

jg


That's a good distinction. Also, I have played real pianos in studios that were dull, but when I heard the playback, it was fanatastic. The mic's play such an important role in getting that studio sound. And that is where many of the current sample libraries fall short. Most do a decent job of re-creating an un-mic'd acoustic piano in a room. I like the close mic, string rattle thing where you can almost feel the vibrations. Ivory seems to get a little closer to this, as far as i can tell.

[Mahal]

I use a Doepfer LMK4+ keyboard - lovely.

Me too. The LMKs are simply very good keyboards that have been screwed directly into their case. Not everybody's taste for the living room, but great for gigging!

The action feels very good. But you have to pay for that: the whole keyboard is quite heavy (24kg).

[Nick Batzdorf]

The main sampled grands in my arsenal are Hans' Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano, Ivory, and the Post Bosendorfer Grandioso. To me each is good for different things.

As Bruce says, the Art Vista is like velvet. It has a lot of character. The PMI Bos is great for a concert sound. It's round, powerful, detailed, very realistic, it blends very well with orchestra, and it also has character - but a different one from Virtual Grand. I wouldn't normally use it in a "pop" context, since its two mic positions are ambient and very ambient.

Ivory (which three different pianos) plays really well and works for a wide variety of things. It's miked from fairly close - Eric called it an "American" sound a while ago, and that's a good way of explaining the difference between it and the Bos recording: American vs. European.

Bottom line, I really like them all. They sound different from one another, but they're all a big step up from what was around before.

And I haven't tried Worra's pianos, which are also supposed to be right up there.

[Tommy]

I've never understood why there has been any wait at all. It seems that other samples are released for both Mac and PC at the same time. Art Vista Virtual Grand being an example.

Why the wait for so long in this case is a wonder!

Lawrence

To come back to that question: they have developed their own playback engine. I suppose it consists of more proprietary code than other libraries.

Just my 2 0,02$

tommy :)