Marching instruments in GPO-A?

[John56]

So what kind of marched instruments and drumline sets can we expect?

Snares with different heads (kevlar/mylar/double for pipe band), stick types, scrapes, tenors, basses (5+?), and a myriad of pit percussion (chromatic and non?). Cymbals in pit and marched?

How about different kinds of horns? The standard drum corps ones maybe (Trumpet in Bb or G, Mellophone in Bb or G, Baritone/Euphoinium, and Contras, over the shoulder "bazooka" style ones, not sousas). Or different textured instruments for field marching (not just brass).

How about different sound settings for "Football field (empty/full) stands", "Indoor stadium", "Band room", etc for reverb/echo and such?

Sorry if this seems like a strange set of questions.

[Jonny Lost]

John,


First, let me say, welcome to the forum.

Second, I'm not quite sure that there will be any marching specific instruments in GPO Advanced. The Garritan team have been mainly concentrating on orchestral instrumentaion. GPO Advanced is just a more in depth look at the subject. However, it would be cool, wouldn't it?

Of course, I have no idea what is in GPO Advanced. I'm just going off of what has been said over the past year. But, one never knows, do they?


Jonny

[Thud]

Snares with different heads (kevlar/mylar/double for pipe band), stick types, scrapes, tenors, basses (5+?), and a myriad of pit percussion (chromatic and non?). Cymbals in pit and marched?

I'm fairly certain those instruments would not be in Garritan Personal Orchestra.

Maybe there will be a Garritan Personal Drum and Bugle Corps in the future. :D
Followed by Garritan Personal Pipe Band of course.
And then Garritan Personal Javanese Gamelan Ensemble.

I've found some soundfont libraries with marching percussion, they are decent, and probably useful for arranging parts at least. I have a pipe band snare, and it's not a sound that would translate really well to a sound library anyway.

[Garritan]

I'm fairly certain those instruments would not be in Garritan Personal Orchestra.

Why not?

GPO Advanced certainly can include those instruments. Or we could spin off a seperate library. Which would you prefer?

Gary Garritan

[cptexas]

Why not?

GPO Advanced certainly can include those instruments. Or we could spin off a seperate library. Which would you prefer?

Gary Garritan
Depends.
How much would it raise the price?
~but more importantly~
How far back would the release date be pushed? :D

I think a seperate library would be better for something of that nature. I think a personal orchestra sould stay a personal orchestra. BUT DON'T TAKE OUT THE CLASSICAL SAXES!!! Those are orchestral enough to keep. :o :D

One more request from someone. (I really hope I'm not repeating someone else's words or my own, if I am, please excuse me :o )
I would like more complete solo strings (as opposed to ens instruments). I often do arrangements for small orchestras of eight violins, four violas, four cellos, and two basses, and they often call for things like pizz, which I can't ensemable build in this case. And I also have phasing issues withing the violas because I can't use a solo and an ens instrument in unison, reducing the viola section's size to three and the same with the basses. Same with the clarinets and trombones. Sometimes I need four or five trombones or a bunch of clarinets. I understand you will be using SAM trombones and will have both solo and enseamble (not derivitive) patches. If there's only one solo trombone, then the standard three derivitive instruments would be really nice. That way I can have a trombone section of three SAM and three GPO. (plus overlays and stuff like that). But the clarinets, solo strings, and vibrato flutes I would like more of. I'm always bumping up against that barrier.
And I think you mentioned a vibrato control for the solo strings? That would be SO great because while at camp I learned that orchestras never really used much vibrato before (I think) the 1920s.

Am I rambling?
Sorry. :o

None of this is complaints. I will always be a BIG fan of yours, Gary!

And I advertised GPO to all of the young composers at camp, too! ;)

Reguards,
-Chris

[Jeff Turner]

In addition to expanding the orchestral colors, I'm just hoping that GPOA includes instruments necessary to mock-up symphonic band scores.

JT

[trumpet82]

Will there be a soprano cornet (for brass band composing) in the GPO-A?

[Thud]

Why not?

GPO Advanced certainly can include those instruments. Or we could spin off a seperate library. Which would you prefer?

Gary Garritan

I would think that GPO wouldn't include those instruments because they are never used in an orchestral setting. 99.9% of the users of GPO would not have a use for marching percussion sounds. In real life, they would simply overpower the orchestra. Note that this is not the traditional "field drum" called for in many orchestral scores.

The pipe band snare drum in particular does not blend well with anything other than bagpipes, because that's what it was designed for.

That's not to say that there wouldn't be demand for it. Marching percussion is a whole other world of percussion, and it could be useful for soundtrack composers who are looking for that specific sound.
It would need to be a separate library (for the same reason that the big band and jazz needed a separate library). And I'd certainly buy it. :)

Here's a fine example :D

http://www.bluedevils.org/programs/a/1999/media/audio/bd99lot8.mp3

And the scottish stuff, just to give you an idea of the context:

http://www.strathpol-pipeband.com/McGeachieMPU.mp3

If you're looking for a challenge, work on a library of pipes (various bagpipes, etc, and scottish drums). Some already exist, but I have yet to hear one that comes close to the real thing. The existing libraries seem to be missing an important aspect. With the work you do on creating expressive, playable instruments, I think you could pull it off better than anybody!

[Jonny Lost]

Hey gary,

I said add whatever you want to add!! We won't mind! (too much!!) :D


Jonny

[CallMeZoot]

Personally I'd rather keep El Guapo from getting bloated (and expensive... and its release delayed). I love the idea behind GPOA--adding new instruments and effects and articulations to GPO's interface (I'd buy it for the string harmonics and col legno alone, and the SAM brass and concert saxes are a huge bonus for me)--but I don't think there's any need to try to accommodate every possible niche and contingency. I like the modular approach, offering optional expansion packs to suit individual needs.

This way in GPOA we'll have a core orchestra/band, but for a small extra price, composers/arrangers can pick up expansion packs to meet their needs ("marching," "avant garde," "celtic," "opera/theater pit orchestra," "medieval/renaissance instruments," "harry partch/john cage instruments," "concerto soloists," "Carl Stalling Cartoon FX," etc.).

Just my 2 cents... Of course, I'd probably buy every single expansion pack, so I should probably start saving my 2 cents...

chris.

[jesshmusic]

From what I have gathered the addition of the classical saxes and Euphonium alone make it Garritan's Personal Band & Orchestra. Not so sure I personally would be interested in the marching band stuff, but it could be imitated with this package. Horn in F for mellophone and Euphonium for marching baritone. The percussion stuff would be missing, but some of that can be imitated. (not that I would know how). On the flip side, the concert band instrumentation will finally be all there, which is something no other package I have seen has.

[dancase]

Why not?

GPO Advanced certainly can include those instruments. Or we could spin off a seperate library. Which would you prefer?

Gary Garritan

IMHO, Marching Band instrumentation would be a somewhat different beast than any kind of orchestral or concert band library. It's also abit more specialized.

For someone that is writing marching arrangements, a concert library would probably suffice... although the drum line is a whole 'nother planet. To really "get" the true sound of a marching band would be a whole different library.

Then again, I haven't marched in over 30 years, so what do I know?? :D

D.

[Markleford]

I'd rather see Marching and Brass Brand instruments spin off into a separate product.

(though being a cornet and tenor/alt horn player, I'd love to see them in some form or other! ;))

- m

[GrahamKeitch]

Why not?

GPO Advanced certainly can include those instruments. Or we could spin off a seperate library. Which would you prefer?

Gary Garritan


Hi Gary, I favour separate libraries for the 'niche' stuff rather than trying to fit everything into GPOA. I would rather see effort put into extending the range of articulations of the basic orchestral instruments - and ensuring these can be invoked easily without relying on keyswitches as these are messy for users of notation software (Finale)! Keep up the good work. I eagerly await GPOA.

[cptexas]

...and ensuring these can be invoked easily without relying on keyswitches as these are messy for users of notation software (Finale)!
I agree here. Even though I am not a notation user, I would rather have articulations triggered via hidden controlers. That way controls could be more organized. For example, your current KS configuration of enseamble strings has everything (except pizz) in both muted and unmuted form. I think that a controller or MIDI switch (possibly the soft pedal) that just controls weather or not the strings are muted would be much more organized. However, I don't know how easy that would be to use with notation programs, as I don't use them very often.

My $.01 (as Chris said, I need to save my pennies :D )

-Chris

PS: pleez excuze my speling

[LFO]

Interesting question, John. Are you involved with Drum Corps?

I marched a few years, started in Spirit of Atlanta in 81 and ended with the Blue Devils in 85. Some of the best summers of my life. :)

-LFO

[Thud]

Interesting question, John. Are you involved with Drum Corps?

I marched a few years, started in Spirit of Atlanta in 81 and ended with the Blue Devils in 85. Some of the best summers of my life. :)

-LFO

1981... weren't John Lawless and Mike Cebulski in the line then?

Wanna take up the scottish style? :D

Half the guys in my line are former DCI players.

[YBaCuO]

Without knowing the extra costs and/or delays involved by adding the extra instruments, it is difficult to make an informed decision.

I am not interested in the marching band instruments, so I am concerned that adding them will increase the cost/time for the instruments that I do want.

However, I understand that these instruments will probably not be very popular so Gary will not make much money (if any) if it is a separate product. But canceling the marching instruments all together would be a shame and in this case I would be willing to pay an extra $25 and wait another 3 months just to have these marching band instruments in existence.

[Dave Hoffman]

Why not?

GPO Advanced certainly can include those instruments. Or we could spin off a seperate library. Which would you prefer?

Gary Garritan

I think if some instruments can be included, you will have what many school directors would need. Classical saxes, euphonium and maybe alto clarinet for concert band, and mellophone, marching baritone, sousaphone for marching band. There are drumline sounds already available from other sources (although I would be happy to only use Garritan sounds). I would guess that most school directors will be band directors, rather than orchestra or choir, and now that Finale has integration, I would think this will draw many more potential customers. I'd suggest that you start with the above as part of GPOA, and then can later do a drum corps/brass band spinoff at a different time, and could include drumline sounds then. Just my .02!

[Dave Hoffman]

Actually, after thinking about it, I wonder if you might someday in the future offer an educator's edition of GPO.

[Nickie Fønshauge]

Why not?

GPO Advanced certainly can include those instruments. Or we could spin off a seperate library. Which would you prefer?

Gary Garritan
Spin off a second library. We don't all need marching band stuff, they are rather specialized instruments. And I hate to buy something I don't need. It's like when a car comes bundled with a bicykle and you just can't buy the car without that darned bicykle.

And what would be the next? Bagpipes and balalaikas? :eek:

I'd rather like to see you expand on the quality and colors of existing instruments. More solo instruments and especially more plrs. Orchestral instruments that are currently missing like saxes and Wagner tuba. And more vibrato control especially for the strings, solo as well as ensemble. I said it before: a one-speed vibrato is the hallmark of a bad musician, IMO. And not being able to omit it entirely is a real loss.

[benjamind]

I agree there, but I'd like to see the Euphonium, Wagner Tuba, Alto Horn, Cornet, Mellophone, Cimbasso, Helicon, Sarrusophone, Sousaphone, included in GPO-A because they are orchestral instruments (they are indeed true concert instruments because they are used in several orchestras).

Classical saxes are essential, as are better quality solo/ensemble strings too. I'm sure that some of the GOS II strings would certainly provide a phenomenal quality for strings if they were integrated.

I'd like to see a much wider orchestral palette. Those brass instruments certainly help, more variety in the strings and woodwinds would help as well.

There is such a thing as a subcontrabass tuba. It's called the Ophoclecide. Using it would be very interesting in an orchestral setting. Not sure if it's included, I doubt it, but I can never be sure.

But those other brass instruments I mentioned are absolutely essential since they would be used by many world class orchestras.

We don't essentially need marching-band stuff in an orchestral library, although it would be a great addition if it were included.

But please don't remove any instruments from GPO-A. That would be absolutely tragic. Removing instruments only takes away our choices in the sonic palette and really leaves a gaping hole in what would otherwise be an awesome array of instrument choices. I am eagerly anticipating this new library and cannot wait to see the instrument list. I am sure it will be comprehensive.

I hope GPO-A gets through this rash of threats unscathed. I'm hoping. Fingers crossed ;)

[Tom Hopkins]

But please don't remove any instruments from GPO-A. That would be absolutely tragic. Removing instruments only takes away our choices in the sonic palette and really leaves a gaping hole in what would otherwise be an awesome array of instrument choices. I am eagerly anticipating this new library and cannot wait to see the instrument list. I am sure it will be comprehensive.I've read through this thread a couple of times and, for the life of me, I can't figure out where the impression was given that instruments were going to be removed from GPO-A. What instruments? We have never stated nor implied that any instruments now present in the library would be removed. As far as instruments added are concerned, we have given some general ideas about what will be contained in GPO-A (project SAM material for one) but have not been specific about most instruments and their programming (nor do I have any intention of getting specific for some time to come.)


I hope GPO-A gets through this rash of threats unscathed. I'm hoping. Fingers crossed http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gifPuzzlement. I must have somehow missed the rash of threats too. All I have seen are suggestions, some of which will be incorporated and some of which won't, like all suggestions. We like to see suggestions (!), however arcane they occasionally may be, and some of them are already part of the plan; but which ones are and which ones aren't will remain unanswered until the product is nearing completion and release. Don't pay too much attention to the "scuttlebutt." Unless you hear something directly from Gary or me, it's all just speculation. There are simply no other authoritative sources of information and, depending on what we've had to drink that day, even we may not be all that authoritative. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Tom

[Hardy Heern]

http://www.bluedevils.org/programs/a/1999/media/audio/bd99lot8.mp3

And the scottish stuff, just to give you an idea of the context:

http://www.strathpol-pipeband.com/McGeachieMPU.mp3

If you're looking for a challenge, work on a library of pipes (various bagpipes, etc, and scottish drums). Some already exist, but I have yet to hear one that comes close to the real thing. The existing libraries seem to be missing an important aspect. With the work you do on creating expressive, playable instruments, I think you could pull it off better than anybody!

Thanks for the Scottish piece link, nice little selection....it really got my root juices flowing again! I've never forgotten a trip made, from my grandmother's place in Fifeshire, to Edinburgh when I was around twelve. A huge massed pipe band marched down Princess St (the main street). An unforgettable sight and sound with Edinburgh castle as a backdrop. A repeat visit with my teenage children years later wasn't so fortunate.

These drums, although having the correct and unique sound, are much thinner than I remember.....guess it was a much larger band.

It would be great to have an expansion pack or a separate library one day...not that it's something I would use every day. I'm not convinced that a decent Celtic library has been done yet at an affordable price. You have to remember that the Scots, traditionally, watch their money.http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif Not a good starting point for financial success with a Celtic library!

Frank

[newmewzikboy]

I need Cimbasso and like, Special FX of ALL instruments not just strings, extra percussion, and normal orchestral extentions.

The only reason you should include wind ensemble and marching band instruments is if you want to hit the K-12 market. Else, throw it into another library.

I'd rather have a world music library such as ethno-world in a small format that could load in easily.

[Nickie Fønshauge]

I'd rather have a world music library such as ethno-world in a small format that could load in easily.
Second that + ancient instruments, like recorder and Viola da gamba (guess you could also call them ethno-world).

[Dave Hoffman]

The only reason you should include wind ensemble and marching band instruments is if you want to hit the K-12 market. Else, throw it into another library.


I don't agree, at least on the wind ensemble part of that comment. In order to have a wind ensemble, all that is needed is for classical saxes and euphonium to be included, and I think most orchestral composers would like to see those as well. Alto clarinet would be nice, as well as expansion of playing techniques for current instruments. Many composers are writing for wind ensemble or band.

As for the marching band, I agree that most users would have little use, but then again, I have little use for a viola de gamba or helicon. That's what makes this product line so amazing. My earlier suggestion was to include mellophone, marching baritone, and sousaphone. I plan to use the jazz brass sounds in marching band arrangements, and I could substitute euphonium for marching baritone and tuba for sousaphone. Horn for mellophone is less convincing. If it was possible to add those three instruments in, I think you'd have satisfied the needs of the K-12 market with the exception of drumline sounds.

As I said before, those are available in VDLII, and I could easily live without them in GPOA. That said, I think a drum corps spinoff at a later date could be interesting, and could incorporate the drumline at that time. I, myself, would have little use for it.

Clearly, I am not a typical user of this software, but I think with the inclusion of GPO in Finale 2006, the K-12 market could easily be tapped into. Whether or not that turns out to be revenue productive I cannot say, but it does seem to be in line with what I have read about Gary's vision.

[Alan Lastufka]

When I first saw the topic title I thought you were talking about the instruments walking the plank on Gary's site - LOL :)

[newmewzikboy]

Viola-de gamba. I gfriend would keep making me write for it!

[GDG]

I don't agree, at least on the wind ensemble part of that comment. In order to have a wind ensemble, all that is needed is for classical saxes and euphonium to be included, and I think most orchestral composers would like to see those as well. Alto clarinet would be nice, as well as expansion of playing techniques for current instruments. Many composers are writing for wind ensemble or band.

Hear hear! Wind ensemble is my primary venue. I'm not sure if it is quite that simple: given the number of clarinets (and often flutes) used in symphonic bands, they may need "section" recordings. Running 12 instances of a solo clarinet sample doesn't work the same way (as least, I think that's how it works).


As for the marching band, I agree that most users would have little use, but then again, I have little use for a viola de gamba or helicon. That's what makes this product line so amazing. My earlier suggestion was to include mellophone, marching baritone, and sousaphone. I plan to use the jazz brass sounds in marching band arrangements, and I could substitute euphonium for marching baritone and tuba for sousaphone. Horn for mellophone is less convincing. If it was possible to add those three instruments in, I think you'd have satisfied the needs of the K-12 market with the exception of drumline sounds.

As I said before, those are available in VDLII, and I could easily live without them in GPOA. That said, I think a drum corps spinoff at a later date could be interesting, and could incorporate the drumline at that time. I, myself, would have little use for it.

Clearly, I am not a typical user of this software, but I think with the inclusion of GPO in Finale 2006, the K-12 market could easily be tapped into. Whether or not that turns out to be revenue productive I cannot say, but it does seem to be in line with what I have read about Gary's vision.

Certainly bundling the winds/brass/percussion (and string bass + piano) from GPO-A with a few additional marching-specific instruments should make an attractive package for high school and college band directors. Possibly even bundled with the software they use for designing field routines.

BTW, is there anyone up for sampling this horn?
http://www.geocities.com/nununugent/MonitorTrumpet.jpg

See The Monitor Trumpet Page (http://www.geocities.com/nununugent/new_page_4.htm) to get yours :rolleyes:

Grant

[jmc]

For GPO-A I am mostly excited about the enhancements to the section and solo strings. The prospect of saxes is very intriguing to me. Additional brass timbres will be nice, but something I would like to suggest is at least four mutes in the horns, both straight and stopped. Or just give mutes to the 2nd horns as well that could all play together (same with trumpets). Right now there are only three available, either as individual instruments or keyswitched instruments. I inevitably merge horns together in unisons at one point or another even if it's just for a few notes.

And while I'm creating a shopping list, something else I would like to see are additions to the percussion section. It would be nice to have some concert toms, and another piatti option (like a big cheesy epic crash), and another soft mallet cymbal roll option (one that doesn't take so long, or that works with a mod wheel, perhaps). Maybe separate wind chimes and bell tree with up and down glisses (slow and fast), or maybe even range it over three or four keys, so if you wanted upper range only you can slowly trill between two or three notes. Temple blocks would be good.

I wouldn't mind having a second flute player option with vibrato. I wish the Trombone Agressive Overlay had a more pronounced tongueing start like the Horn Agressive Overlay patch. Things like woodwind trills and percussion rolls are a little system intensive (I can't even use the new keyswitched percussion on my system, I have to resort the original programs). If there were recorded trills and/or rolls I wouldn't complain, but it's not personally a high priority.

Marching battery isn't a high priority, since there are other specialized libraries like Tapspace available. But honestly, Tom, anything that you and Gary want to put in the library, I say, you go right ahead and do what you want! I'm not going to complain about too much content.

[Nickie Fønshauge]

More organ stops, especially for contemporary music, would definitely be a plus.

[Dave Hoffman]

Hear hear! Wind ensemble is my primary venue. I'm not sure if it is quite that simple: given the number of clarinets (and often flutes) used in symphonic bands, they may need "section" recordings. Running 12 instances of a solo clarinet sample doesn't work the same way (as least, I think that's how it works).


Well, a wind ensemble is usually one on a part, but you are correct that for band, we'd need section clarinets and section flutes...I'll add that to my wish list Gary and Tom! ;)

[Markleford]

Well, a wind ensemble is usually one on a part, but you are correct that for band, we'd need section clarinets and section flutes...I'll add that to my wish list Gary and Tom! ;)But then how many per section? Hard decision to make!

Viva la section building! :)

- m