OT: New mixer...digital? Low noise? [Archive]

Marcussen

07-05-2005, 10:51 AM

Hi... I need a larger mixer, so I thought I might ask for some advice. I have a few overcomable problems with my old mixer (a cheap Eurorack 1202):
a) Some slight noise which gets enhanced when I normalize and compress my music
b) records at quite low volume, which enhances the above problem (this might be due to my soundcards - intenal M-Audio audiophile 24/96)

Now I figured I might aswell minimize those problems when buying my new mixer... So any suggestions? The new mixer needs to have atleast 6 stereo inputs, but I would not mind 8. I'm considering if I should use the digital cables, in which case I need a special mixer right? I'm really a mixer newbie, so be gentle :D

Herman Witkam

07-05-2005, 11:12 AM

Are you running your mixes through that Behringer mixer? or is it for monitoring purposes only? If you're running your mixes through it it would first go through your soundcard's digital to analog converters, which would degrade the sound. Then, once it goes thru the Behringer circuitry it would degrade the sound even more!

Samplecraze

07-05-2005, 11:13 AM

What's the budget Marcussen?

Marcussen

07-05-2005, 11:15 AM

yeah... i'm running a ~~~~ty setup i'm sure. SO help in all regards would be great. Here is a rundown:

Sound from computers go into Mixer to turn the sound into one output. This sound goes into my main daw where its recorded when I'm done. This output also goes back into the mixer and out to my monitors.

crap I know... all this is analogue :-/

[edit] Well... Budget. I would say around $1000... Double that if its really needed. I guess the cheapest it can be done for. The less the better obviously... in other words I dont want to spend more than I need, but I dont want another crappy solution

07-05-2005, 11:20 AM

Hi Christian,

I'm with Herman here - I have more questions than answers for you at this point. Specifically, what do you currently plug into the mixer? If it is for your sound cards, you actually may be able to get by without one unless you need to plug in a bunch of live inputs. For myself, if I didn't do live gigs as well, I would probably be mixerless and stay entirely in the digital realm.

Once you answer the above questions, we'll probably be able to help you better. Also, budget is a factor here too so please include how much you're willing to spend and we can help you out a bit better.

HTH,
FV

07-05-2005, 11:28 AM

You guys are too quick for me. Some of my questions were answered already. :)

Christian, is it completely just your sound cards that are going through the mixer? What is your configuration (which sound cards are feeding into the main daw and what is the sound card in the main daw)? You may be able to just go in to your main daw digitally or analog if you have the inputs for it. If your main daw's sound card doesn't have enough inputs, you may consider taking the $1000 to upgrade that soundcard as an option. If you have enough inputs on your main daw's sound card, you could get by with spending $0. Not saying that you should go that route but it is an option to consider.

Right now, it appears that you are going through a d/a conversion into a crappy mixer (sorry, just telling it like it is) and using its lousy summing bus back into an a/d conversion.

If you could stay digital completely, that would certainly be a factor. ADAT connections work well for this kind of thing (at least until we use higher sample rates in the future).

Anyway, hope this helps a bit.

FV

Marcussen

07-05-2005, 11:28 AM

I only use it to route sound from 6 computers into one signal so I dont have to bounce my audio when recording in cubase. I would however like to retain the posibility of having a Mic input, but I might be willing to sacrifice that to be mixerless... keep asking and I'll try answer the best I can.

The soundcards are all the same... M-Audio Audiophile 24/96

ps: Yes - I know my setup is crappy... been spending all my money on samples :D

07-05-2005, 11:32 AM

Hi Christian,

If you don't regularly record mic-ed sources (voice, instruments, etc.), you could still work mixerless. You could invest in a mic preamp for those occasions. You don't need ultra-high-quality necessarily if you were prepared to go through the mixer's mic pres anyway. You can probably get a dual channel mic pre that will sound better than a $1000 mixer's mic pre's for $1000 or less. If you have a decent rental company in your area, you could scrap that altogether and rent when you need it.

As long as you have an analog input into your main daw's sound card, you'll be okay with this option I would think.

FV

Herman Witkam

07-05-2005, 11:39 AM

You could use a low cost mixer or a control room matrix like the Samson C-control for monitoring purposes ONLY - connecting your soundcards' analog outputs to it whilst using digital cabling to get the sound from one sound card to another.

Or you might as well keep dragging audio files over the network as it won't degrade the quality of the audio ;-)

07-05-2005, 11:52 AM

Hi Christian,

With all of the soundcards the same, and since the daw only has 2 analog ins and 2 digital ins, I can see why you're using a mixer. You need to think a bit about how you like to work. If you don't really care about having a mixer, you would need to, at the very least, upgrade your sound card. An RME Multiface would give you 8 ins, plus 1 s/pdif in (stereo input), plus ADAT i/o (should you upgrade one card on another computer to ADAT). You can get a Multiface, including the pci card for it for under $1000. It's low latency, sounds good, and the drivers are solid (as are most from RME).

Prior to spending money on such a solution though, I would recommend that you send the output of 2 of your sound cards directly into your main DAW and bring them up on inputs in Cubase to see if that solution will work for you. In other words, try before you buy. It could be that, for the way you work, it wouldn't work too well for you.

One thing to note is that I believe the Multiface comes with Totalmix software from RME which allows you to mix internally in the card (ie no strain on your cpu other than accepting the inputs). What this could do for you is allow you to mix all of the inputs to 2 and route it into Cubase so that you only need to activate 2 inputs in your daw (possibly cutting down on any additional cpu it may use).

HTH,
FV

07-05-2005, 12:06 PM

Hi,

You could use a low cost mixer or a control room matrix like the Samson C-control for monitoring purposes ONLY - connecting your soundcards' analog outputs to it whilst using digital cabling to get the sound from one sound card to another.

He's already got a low cost mixer which adds noise to his mixes. IMHO, it is spending good money after bad. When going mixerless, I agree that something like a Samson C-Control or a Mackie Big Knob (love that thing) would be a good thing. Particularly for those instances where you get a loud unexplainable noise and you need to quickly turn things down. You don't want it to blow up your speakers before you can turn it down. The Samson unit is cheap (don't know how good it is as I've never looked into it) but the Mackie unit has the "big knob" that is easy to find when you need to turn things down in a hurry.

Given his soundcards, he would need to daisy chain s/pdif into the next computer, then s/pdif into the next, etc. until it finally reached the main daw. With six computers and the fact that digital connections are not the same as analog ones, I think that that is a problem waiting to happen. Much more difficult to troubleshoot too IMHO.

Or you might as well keep dragging audio files over the network as it won't degrade the quality of the audio ;-)

Unfortunately, this gets old very quickly. It takes time to do this and you really don't want to be doing this long term. You have to wait for the tracks to render on the remote pc and then transfer from 6 pcs to the main one. If you have a five minute cue recorded at 24-bit 44 kHz, multiplied by 6 stereo files, it adds up quickly.

If you decide that you want to go mixerless Christian, you'll need to spend probably between $1000 to $1500 when you factor in the updated soundcard and some sort of monitor control (like the Samson or Mackie). If you upgrade your mixer, you'll need to spend roughly the same amount too.

Anyway, good luck with your decision.

FV

Marcussen

07-05-2005, 12:14 PM

Or you might as well keep dragging audio files over the network as it won't degrade the quality of the audio ;-) You just gave me a headache :D

Hi Fv... thanks. I'll look into that. I would route it digitally right?

http://www.aage.dk/Shoppingsystem/produkter.asp?gruppe=PCI-lydkort

Any of the products here that would work? They are sorted by manufacturer

[EDIT] Just saw another reply from you FV... gonna read it now

07-05-2005, 12:34 PM

Hi Christian,

You can probably only go digitally with one of your soundcards into the main daw this way. Only thing that I've heard of that can combine s/pdif digital signals from multiple sources is from a company called Z-Systems. Most of your budget, if not all, would be taken up by one of these units. Most people that I know that are doing this with multiple computers (and going mixerless) are using analog connections or, if they have 3 additional computers or less, they are using ADAT connections (for example, some RME cards offer 24 inputs via 3 ADAT connections).

Anyway, I hope this gives you quite a bit of food for thought,
FV

Marcussen

07-05-2005, 12:38 PM

Yes... too much :D

Ok... so I would have still go analogue... I reckon I would still get noise then, seeing as the soundcards are internal? How important are the cables by the way. Is there a notable sonic difference between cheap ones and expensive ones?

Any products from the link I made which you could say I ought to get?

Marcussen

07-05-2005, 01:08 PM

07-05-2005, 01:27 PM

Hi Christian,

That should work and would be cheaper than the RME solution. I have to admit that, although I have no affiliation with them, I am quite partial to RME cards. Reason being is that all of the RME cards I've owned as well as friends of mine have proven to be very stable, with well-written drivers and just work. I've heard good things about some of the M-Audio stuff and then some not-so-good things about some of it. I don't have personal experience with it myself so I can't comment on it other than what I have heard.

The RME cards have ASIO built right into the hardware which helps reduce cpu load and maintain low latency. I don't know if that will make much of a difference in your situation or how much extra load (if any) is brought on by the M-Audio cards.

If you are happy to date with your M-Audio cards, I would read up on reviews on this specific model to see if it seems okay. Also, to note, I interpreted your initial post to mean that the noise was due to your mixer. I am assuming that you've investigated it and concluded that that is where the noise is coming from. If the noise is coming from your soundcards in the additional computers, you will still have the problem, even after spending some money.

If you have not checked it out (ie where exactly is the noise coming from), I recommend also recording some audio from each of your computers into your main daw (straight in rather than through your mixer) to see if that is where it is coming from. While it may not change what you do in terms of improving things, at least you won't be disappointed at the end of it all. If it turns out to be your sound cards, then you may need to look at other options long-term which will mean more money but at least you're prepared for it. If that is the case, it is quite possible that you would perhaps be able to stretch your budget slightly, and look into some other options.

HTH,
FV

07-05-2005, 01:45 PM

Hi Christian,

I found a possible option for you as well. You could look into Lynx audio cards for your main daw. The cards also have good drivers and sound great. A little bit more pricey but it would allow you to go digitally with all but 1 of your additional PC's I believe. You would need to take up 2 slots though for this solution as it would require one main pci card plus an option card to take in the s/pdif signals.

In order to keep the costs down you could go for the Lynx L22 card which only has 2 audio inputs but you can also add the Lynx LS-AES which will give you an additional 4 s/pdif inputs in addition to the one that comes with the card (a total of 5 computers connected via s/pdif to your main daw). The only issue with this option is that you would need to unplug one of your computers if you were going to record live inputs (for example a mic). If you went with the more pricey Lynx Two card, you can get it in configurations of 4 ins/outs, 2ins/6outs, 6ins/2outs.

Just trying to give you options here. With the above solution though, you would probably need to distribute your digital clock signal as well to keep them in synch. Again, that would add to the cost so it is probably getting out of your budget now. I just thought that I'd give you an idea of some things to consider.

With a 6-computer system, in order to get some flexibility as well as stability and good sound, budgets may need to adjusted too IMHO. At the end of the day, you'll probably be setting priorities in terms of sound versus budget. I'm just trying to give you some options so that you can see where it fits for your particular preference.

I hope that I'm not causing you more grief in terms of a decision. I'm trying to let you know what's out there as well as some possible options. Ultimately, I cannot tell you what would work best for you.

HTH,
FV

Nick Batzdorf

07-05-2005, 02:02 PM

Z-sys makes great stuff, but it's not what you need.

You have six S/PDIF outputs coming out of your computers. What you really want is a sound card on your main machine with a bunch of S/PDIF inputs. Then you need a video distribution box to route clock (via S/PDIF) to all those M-Audio cards' S/PDIF inputs and keep them in sync.

The only card that comes to mind is MOTU with a 308 interface. http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudio/308/body.html/en/view?searchterm=308

I'm not sure if they make it any more, but you can usually find them around.

You can find video distribution boxes going for <$50 on ebay. I bought an over-the-top professional rackmount one for $30 on ebay, and it works great.

Marcussen

07-05-2005, 02:46 PM

Ok.. reading through it all... Thanks in advance.

The 6 computers are including my DAW..

Ray Lindsley

07-05-2005, 03:21 PM

The Lynx Cards are fantastic

Herman Witkam

07-05-2005, 03:54 PM

You just gave me a headache :D
I was just kidding about that of course :)

He's already got a low cost mixer which adds noise to his mixes. IMHO, it is spending good money after bad. When going mixerless, I agree that something like a Samson C-Control or a Mackie Big Knob (love that thing) would be a good thing. Particularly for those instances where you get a loud unexplainable noise and you need to quickly turn things down. You don't want it to blow up your speakers before you can turn it down. The Samson unit is cheap (don't know how good it is as I've never looked into it) but the Mackie unit has the "big knob" that is easy to find when you need to turn things down in a hurry.

Yeah, but Behringer kind of exceeds all other low-cost mixer manufacturers by offering an extremely low quality product. I blew up that same kind of Eurorack mixer last year, whilst turning on the phantom power with both the control room and master level off. One of the smaller Mackie mixers like the VLZ 1402 (which is around 400 €) offer a significant amount of quality compared to that Behringer thing.

I own a Samson C-control (130 €), which works great for me. It doesn't add audible noise, and sounds really transparant to me. It also got a positive review in the Sound on Sound mag. It might not have the desired amount of inputs for you, so the Big Knob or the SPL monitor controller might be better options.

howardv

07-05-2005, 04:14 PM

Behringer also makes a similarly cut-rate DDX3216 16-bus, 32-channel digital mixer that takes 8-port aes/ebu expansion cards. Only negative I've seen in online reviews is disappointment that it doesn't do 96K. Seen it for sale at AMS for around $700 with expansion boards going for around $200 with similar pricing in Europe.

Howard
Ragtime (http://www.rtpress.com) Press (http://www.rtpress.com)

Marcussen

07-06-2005, 05:57 AM

Herman Witkam

07-06-2005, 07:36 AM

Lets say I go for the mixerless option...then exchange the soundcard in my Daw with the Delta1010...if I then wanted to use amic at some point, could I then get a preamp and connect it to that?

Yes - a lot of pre-amps have balanced jack outputs which will fit into your Delta breakout box jack inputs (it XLR you can use an adapter to TRS/jack). You could also go for a soundcard solution that has some pre-amps included.

[EDIT] And how much does the cable quality from soundcard to daw matter?
In the analog domain...always use balanced cables, to minimize any kind of (radio or magnetic etc.) interference.

Marcussen

07-06-2005, 09:10 AM

Ok thats great.

I also use my DAW to produce sounds with. That means that aside from getting all the sound from my 5 other PC's into the main daw I also need to record the sound from the daw itself... how?

With my mixer I took all sound into the mixer, then from themixer into my main daw (which made me able to record all the sound in cubase)

07-06-2005, 11:10 AM

Hi Christian,

A lot of good answers already for you. The way I typically record all sound from external sources (ie other PC's, keyboards, etc.) along with the sounds from my main daw is I typically route all audio to the same output and then do an online bounce to record it all to a stereo file. I use Logic mainly for this but I'm sure that Cubase SX will allow you to do something similar.

FV

Marcussen

07-06-2005, 04:38 PM

07-06-2005, 04:48 PM

Hi Christian,

Sorry, I don't know if I'm using correct terminology but it is essentially a bounce to disk but in realtime (ie if your song is 5:00, it takes 5:00 to bounce). This is as opposed to offline in that offline is not realtime and is typically faster. An offline bounce will not allow you to take external sound sources (such as keyboards or your extra PC's) because it has to process them in realtime via the soundcard's inputs in order to record them to disk.

Does that clear things up?

FV

Marcussen

07-06-2005, 04:54 PM

Ok right... yeah, thats what I do now...I simply route all sound fom my mixer back into my daw (including the sound comming from the daw). I then simply add an audio track and hit record.

Thing is... would I be able to do that with the Delta1010 solution? And how...

07-06-2005, 06:18 PM

Hi Christian,

It would work differently than how you do it now. See, your audio track has its input set to the 2 inputs on your daw's soundcard. All audio is being routed through your mixer's stereo outputs (or a bus or aux, however you've got it set up) and into your soundard's stereo inputs. If you go mixerless, this has to somehow happen within Cubase. I own Cubase SX (2.x though - haven't upgraded to 3) and I'll try to have a gander at the manual to see if it can be routed the same way as in Logic.

In Logic, I can call up all of the inputs from my soundcard as separate faders in the mixer. I can assign the outputs of those inputs to an output in the Logic mixer. I then click on the bounce button on the output (in Logic's mixer), it prompts me for a filename, allows me to add it to my audio region pool and then begins bouncing the output down to a stereo file. It works very well and allows me to do this without a mixer.

HTH,
FV

Marcussen

07-07-2005, 08:26 AM

I guess an option would be to create an audio track per input, and then record it... and then bounce it all into one file?

How are all you other people running your multi computer setup?

07-07-2005, 08:42 AM

Hi Christian,

That would still take extra and, IMHO, unnecessary time. I checked the manual briefly and I believe that you should be able to do this. You should check out the VST Connections chapter (at least in version 2 of SX). If I have some time, I'll see if maybe I can set up a template to send to you but that probably won't be for a day or two. One thing that I do not know is if the template will show up correctly on your system since I'm using different audio hardware. In the meantime, I recommend that you read that section. You may want to try one of the Cubase forums as well in order to get some help on setting this up.

HTH,
FV

howardv

07-07-2005, 08:51 AM

During the creation process I find it real handy to keep as much midi as possible and bus up effects through the few boxes I have and monitoring everything through a mixer. Just so long as I can record everything to its own track. But once I get past rough mixes I like to freeze everything to its own wav track in the daw, including each instrument's own reverb tracks which often involves multiple effects passes per track. That way I can envelope and upsample everything as needed and downsample the the mix after mastering.

Howard
Ragtime (http://www.rtpress.com) Press (http://www.rtpress.com)