The art of the fugue

[cptexas]

I'm attempting to write a fugue and I have a question about "proper" fugue form.

When each voice comes in it comes in a fifth higher (or fourth lower) than the previous voice did. By the time I get all the voices in, I've completed the entire circle of fifths!!

Should I put in mini developments that end up a couple spaces back on the circle of fifths? Or should the virtual musicicans just deal with playing all those sharps and flats? Eventually all those sharp additions or flat subtractions will get boring. It always goes the same interval. How do I add more interest? If I do put in mini developments, how do I morph into different keys?

Fugues are HARD!! :eek:

Thanks,
-Chris

[jesshmusic]

Not quite. ;)

The first voice comes in on the tonic, the next on the dominant, the next on tonic, back and forth for as many voices as you have. So really, you only use two partials in the circle of fifths.

[newmewzikboy]

huh?

nononooooo

First voice Tonic ex A
Second Voice Dom ex E
Third voice Tonic ex A
4th voice Dom key ex E

and lots of trash in between

Get out your WTC

Can also be I - anything - I - anything etc,..

[jesshmusic]

Oh, and BTW, there is a good book by the same guy that did the translation of the Fux counterpoin book called "A Study of Fugue" or something similar. To add more interest, you get into counterfugues, double and triple fugues and imitation.

There is also a somewhat specific cadence formula to follow when learning. If I remember correctly you cadence on the third, fifth, then tonic to end. I may have the third and fifth reversed. There is no set length for the exposition. Bach was the ultimate master of fugue and his fugues should be thoroughly analyzed. I have always thought the fugue to be the great test of a composer's skill because there are set rules to follow. If not followed, well one is just writing music, not a fugue. ;)

[jesshmusic]

Can also be I - anything - I - anything etc,..

Technically this would be imitation, not a fugue. Which is also a lot of fun to write.

[Nickie Fønshauge]

Chris, take a look at Kunst der Fuge (http://www.kunstderfuge.com/) . It has a few good articles about fugues (in english) plus a wealth of fine MIDI's.

[Poolman]

You might find these notes which I wrote for a pupil useful. They don't tell you every last thing about fugue but they should keep you on the right lines. (N.B. These are the traditional rules. Composers like Bartok didn't feel bound by them. Bartok actually did run the cycle of 5ths you mention.)

Writing a Fugue

What is a fugue?
Nobody quite knows. It has been described as a texture rather than a form, but it certainly has form. The problem is that the form seems different with every fugue you examine. But all fugues have certain things in common:
1) A fugue is contrapuntal, for a fixed number of voices, or instrumental parts corresponding to but not necessarily behaving like voices, (i.e. individual melodic lines rather than melodies sticking to vocal ranges or styles.) Chords are avoided except possibly at final cadences.
2) It is based on one chief motive/melody which appears in each voice in turn. There may also be one or more subsidiary melodies.
3) At the beginning, the main theme (subject) is given out by one voice unaccompanied, then a second joins in with (virtually) the same subject, thus making two melodic strands, then a third and so on until all voices have joined in. As the organist said when he played a fugue at the end of the service “In a fugue the voices come in one by one, and the people go out one by one.”
4) Subsequent to this exposition, the subject should continue to appear in one voice or another from time to time at the composer’s discretion, always maintaining counterpoint, and developing or furthering the subject in some way.

There are few rules as such, and what few there are get broken sooner or later. Indeed some pundit once said “There is not a single correctly written fugue among Bach’s ‘Forty-eight’”. Strange when Bach is considered the greatest master of fugue! The truth is that no two of his fugues are alike because he was demonstrating which construct would suit this subject and so there is no set pattern. Some fugues use this device, others use that device, and so on according to what possibilities the subject suggests.

What all fugues have in common is the idea of an exposition introducing the voices through a subject and answer. Let’s define the “rules”:

Rules for writing an exposition
1) Create or choose a subject. It shouldn’t be too long or the fugue could get out of hand. Some subjects consist of a “head” and “tail”, i.e. two contrasting phrases probably broken by a short rest. But constant flow is OK too. Decide which voice is going to start with it. We’ll assume 4 voices SATB. Then the voices should alternate high voice, low voice etc. Viz SATB or SBTA or ATBS or ASBT or TBSA or BTAS but not STAB or BATS and so on. This is important to preserve the idea of alternating keys tonic and dominant, - or more accurately upper and lower ranges. In any case the 2nd and 4th entries will be called the Answer. This may be a straight transposition into the dominant key, in which case we have a Real Answer, or more likely the Answer will have to be modified, in which case it is a Tonal Answer. The rules in a nutshell are:
a) If the Subject starts on the Tonic note then the Answer starts on the Dominant note;
b) If the Subject starts on the Dominant then the Answer starts on the Tonic,
c) A leap (or other prominent move) in the subject from D to T or vice versa must be answered by its converse (even a little way into the subject)
d) When all this has been satisfied, the rest of the Answer is a transposition of the Subject a 5th higher/4th lower.

Examples in C major: Sub CGEDCDCB Ans GCBAGAGF#
Sub GAGCBAG Ans CDCGEDC
Sub CEGFEDC Ans GBCCBAG

The answer must be accompanied by the previous voice continuing with a new melody, and so on throughout the Exposition until all voices are going simultaneously. If the same melody is used in the “previous voice” each time the Sub/Ans appears, then this melody is called the Countersubject. It must be written in invertible counterpoint with the Subject so that it can appear both above and below it. One important point is that the first appearance of the Answer and its countersubject should stay in the Tonic key as long as possible.

2) It may be convenient to insert a new linking passage between the 2nd and 3rd entries, so as to bring the key back to the Tonic. This will be called the Codetta.

Rules for the rest of the fugue
There aren’t any, other than the implied need to present the Sub/Ans in one voice or another from time to time, preferably sharing out the entries to the various voices with an even hand. These remaining entries will modulate through related keys so we can probably talk about Middle Entries and Final Entries (Tonic). For the rest, one chooses from the following list of possible devices, as thought appropriate:

1) Episodes. These are sections which either avoid the subject and countersubject or use material freely developed from them. Their purpose is twofold: to relieve the ear from the Sub, and to achieve modulation to the key required for the next entry of the Sub.
2) Stretto (lit. “drawing together”) Virtually a canon of the Sub with itself or with the Ans. Even if it only works for part of the Sub it is worth doing. If ALL voices take part in a stretto using the complete subject, this is called a Stretto Maestrale. One good compromise is that the first three voices are unable to complete the Sub but we make the last one complete.
3) Using the Countersubject at each entry of the Sub. This is obviously a labour-saving device as well as helping unity. Sometimes a third melody can be used in the Exposition so that we have triple counterpoint; then the middle entries will show various inversions of the three tunes.
4) Melodic inversion of the Sub.
5) Augmentation and/or diminution of the sub (double or half note values).
6) Dominant Pedal near end, and or Tonic Pedal at end
7) Coda on new material or new way of looking at old.

Overall plan
Do not try to include all the above devices. A useful plan is:

Exposition Tonic (and probably Dominant) key
Episode 1 Built on fragments from Expos. And itself in double or triple counterpoint. Modulate to relative minor.
First Middle entry(s) in relative minor. One or two entries
Episode 2 New or derived. Simple 2-part work, using sequences. Modulating to Subdominant key
Second middle entry(s) in Subdom key.
Episode 3 Reworking of Episode 1 by inverting the parts. Modulating to tonic key
Final entries Tonic key mainly. Stretto if possible.
Optional short coda reaffirming tonic.

Footnote
It is not necessary for all voices to participate all the time, after the exposition. Sections in 2-part counterpoint may be appropriate for a short time. When however a voice has rested, it will draw attention to itself when it does enter, so give it the Sub or something important.

[joaz]

I just wanted to praise Poolmans masterly exposition on the art of fugue.
You make it sound such fun,it makes me want to write a few more.
Admirable clarity,I now understand why you have students Queueing round the block for your lessons.
Superb.
regards

[Jerry W.]

Terry!

Thank you for sharing this! This finally makes sense to me. I have studied fugue writing before but it never seemed to REALLY make sense. The above really helped explain things precisely.

:) thanks again

Jerry Wickham

[cptexas]

Wow, Terry!
That was really helpful!

I think I'll just do my fugue as a composition that's somewhat fugue-like. :D Maybe pull a Bartok, I don't know yet.

Thanks again! :)
-Chris

[newmewzikboy]

Not true. Simply, the construct of a fugue dictates it as a classical rhetorical debate only in music context. One sets an argument, and then presents a counter-argument..churn the bastard out...and resolve the argument with a debate winner. The central differences you need to set up between argument and counter-argument are a different tonal center (which can be anything), and different motifs (S, CS) which should complement each other but be noticably different. The Sonata form is structured in almost the exact same way, go figure...

As for other forms: Why not try a series of Baroque Dance Pieces, or a Passagalia?
And don't forget the Fugetti in your fugues...

PS. I remember that you are not supposed to outline the tonic dom relationship in your subjext in order to make the subject work? Or maybe the opposite...been 5 years since I wrote my last.

Technically this would be imitation, not a fugue. Which is also a lot of fun to write.

[bye]

Oh, and BTW, there is a good book by the same guy that did the translation of the Fux counterpoin book called "A Study of Fugue" or something similar.
That's a really fun book to read, highly recommended!

[Fabio]

My 2cents.

Don't forget the history of the "free" fugue. Born during renaissance from Caccia and Ricercare, as a frequently used form it finish during the end of XVIII century, surviving a little in church music, and as a style "elevation" way (in Behetoven or Brahms for instance) during late classic and romantic era. Then it's used again as early music citation or contamination in contemporary music (atonal also) when a counterpoint structure is chosen by the composer.

It's easy then understand why Poolman say "...nobody knows what a Fuga is": it's just a basic classification of a very various and free style of composing counterpoint, where the only real rule is the exposition typical taste and the deep use of thematic material for counterpoint development.

What is frequently described as "Fugue" is the academic abstraction of the Classic (Fux to Mozart style) fugue, used for centuries in Europe as a hard training for young composers.

Fuga still is a requested examination in Italian, German and French Conservatorio.

I'm available to help new "fugu-ist" in learning this style, just let me know.

[newmewzikboy]

How about favorite fugues people...offbeat, whatever. I'll start some more famous ones:

Listz - B minor Sonata
Britton - Guide to the Orchestra...

Your turn

[cptexas]

Britton - Guide to the Orchestra...
Yeesh!
Just took a look at a MIDI of that one. All those harp glisses were to much for my polyphony to handle. That's one COMPLEX fugue!!! :eek: :eek:

-Chris

[newmewzikboy]

Have ta listen to a recording...nice piccolo part



Yeesh!
Just took a look at a MIDI of that one. All those harp glisses were to much for my polyphony to handle. That's one COMPLEX fugue!!! :eek: :eek:

-Chris

[cptexas]

Have ta listen to a recording...nice piccolo part
I've got a recording too, but I wanted to see the notes. I put all the parts on the piano roll view and it looked like a bunch of drunk bees flyin' all over the place! :eek: Very cool to see the harp glisses in there going up and down, though. I would really like to do a GPO rendition of that peice but I don't have the score and I don't think that particular MIDI is the most accurate.

And I do really like that piccolo! It's a very nice part, but the piccoloist keeps hitting a higher harmonic on the lower notes. I never knew that untill I saw the MIDI. Funny how if you hear something that's 'wrong' and you never hear it 'right' you think that the 'wrong' way is the 'right' way and you get confused. That's what happened to me with the 1812 Overture. I will foever love the way I heard it first: with the tempo constantly doubling and halfing. It sounds SOO good that way! (I'm reffering to the part near the end that's one big tutti and then the strings and winds break of and do a whirlwind of a run, then back to the tutti again...the tempo was halfed at the tutti and doubled at the whirlwind run. It sounds a lot more whirlwindie that way)

-Chris

[joaz]

How about favorite fugues people...offbeat, whatever. I'll start some more famous ones:

Listz - B minor Sonata
Britton - Guide to the Orchestra...

Your turn
Finale Walton 1st Symphony

[newmewzikboy]

Bravo. Very nice addition to our list!

Finale Walton 1st Symphony

[chet reinhardt]

Assuming that Bach's WTC is too obvious perhaps something for the lute by one of his contemporaries would be of interest.

Interesting counterpoint if not necessarily (to the best of my recollection) containing a fugue would something by Silvius Leopold Weiss, perhaps Sonata in C minor, number 52.

Regards,

Chet

[newmewzikboy]

Nope. Only fugues allow in our list. Fugues of a post classical nature appreciated...the more modern for extra credit.

[chet reinhardt]

C'est la vie.

[newmewzikboy]

Is that the only fugues so far? There must be more in 20th century

[Nickie Fønshauge]

Of course there are. Shostakovitch wrote 24 of them for piano in Op. 87.

[newmewzikboy]

Nice Nickie! hmmm I wonder if Shostokovich is really a 20th century composer though :D

Any orchestral additions??

[trentpmcd]

How about Bela Bartok Concerto for Orchestra?

[newmewzikboy]

Ding DIng TRent! I was waiting for someone to bring this one up!

5 extra credit points!

[rwayland]

You might find these notes which I wrote for a pupil useful. They don't tell you every last thing about fugue but they should keep you on the right lines. (N.B. These are the traditional rules. Composers like Bartok didn't feel bound by them. Bartok actually did run the cycle of 5ths you mention.)

. . . . . . . .



Well, now, that it the best exposition of fugue writing that I have encountered!

Richard

[jesshmusic]

Hindemith is a modern day bach when it comes to fugues, but my favorite is the double fugue in the fourth movement of Beethoven's 9th after the Ode to Joy chorus.

The third movement of my Quartet for Violin, Cello, Oboe and Piano is a quasi fugue.

[newmewzikboy]

No fair. Cannot propose your own works. Thats nepotizzzzm.

Beethoven is Fair!

I also like op 131 - first movement. ACtually, its my favorite musical work of all time.

[Andrew Koenig]

The first movement of Bartok's "Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta" is a fugue. If memory serves, it has twelve voices with entries that encompass the entire circle of fifthts.

[newmewzikboy]

Excellant survey, folks.

Keep them coming!

[dpc]

The fourth movement FUGE of Ernest Bloch's Concerto Grosso for String Orchestra with Piano Obbligato is an incredible piece of music that at once outshines the form and displays it in all it's glory. I have a recording of Howard Hanson conducting it which is really immediate sounding (Mercury Living Presence.) Everyone should know this work because it's way hip.

I agree with the great fugues that have been mentioned here. My personal favorite (which is probably my favorite passage of music in any form) is the forementioned Beethoven fuge in his 9th. Two other staggering musical accomplishments and candidates for greatest music ever written (lots of folks think so) would be the Fuge that follows the opening bars of Bach's B Minor Mass making up the Kyrie (those opening bars as stunning and beautiful as anything you'll ever hear imho.) The fuge in the last movement of Mozarts Symphony #41 Jupiter where he uses the themes from the prior movements to make up the fuge is perhaps the greatest example of his effortless genius. He may have worked hard at it but it doesn't sound like it. Many people feel this work is unmatched by any composer.

Glorious apples and oranges here folks.

Dave Connor

[newmewzikboy]

dpc: EXCELLANTE Post! 10 extra credit points

[dpc]

newmuzikboy,

I haven't recieved any extra credit points since some time in the prior millenium. I will treasure them and try to convert into cash as soon as possible.

BTW you get 11 extra credit points for mentioning Beethoven's sublime opening fuge in Opus 131 C#minor.

Everyone should get the Bernstein DG recording of this string quartet being blown up to full string orchestra! It's another candidate for most profound thing to ever flow from the hand of a composer. If you consider all of the incredible recordings of Bernstein (Mahler et. al.) this is his personal favorite and what he thought was his highest achievement in a conducted performance.

Dave Connor

[dpc]

It should be pointed out here that both Mozart and Beethoven (and Brahms and others) gravitated towards contrapuntal textures as they matured. The depth and range of expression afforded by these textures allowed them to pour themselves into the music in both a spiritual way as well as highly intellectual way. (Most great composers seem to possess these two qualities at least.)

Mozart suffered a personal crisis when he first encountered Bach's Well Tempered Clavier with it's demonstration of fuge at it's pinnacle. He flat out felt he didn't know anything about composition at that point. Soon his music was brimming with his own take on countrapuntal writing such as his fuge in the Fantasia in C for piano. In his later symphonies you hear incredible rhythmically offset fugal passages as in his 35th symphony which had such a profound effect on Stravinsky almost two centuries later.

Beethoven who was busy at innovation and expansion of forms in the classical style (which was very Mozartean as in his first two symphonies) begins to pepper his work with fugal like passages as in the Fifth symphony where he really created a new sound and style. Sure enough this gave way to pure fuge as his personal life deepened creating a need for the deepest musical forms.

Fuge remains a wonder of depth, precision, and potential in the hands of an earnest musician who has something to say to the world.

Dave Connor

[newmewzikboy]

You have to also realize also that both Beethoven and Brahms were *very* interested in pre baroque music, e.g. renaissance, even more so that baroque...and I think you can tell in Beethoven's late works. Brahms was considered an expert musicologist of that earlier period.

We can also see this earlier interest taking hold during the late 19 and early 20th century in other composers...in the return to modal writing that you see in France for example, or Sibelius in another.

hmmm...Stravinsky, very surprisingly, worshiped Webern later in life, and had a picture of him near the piano when he composed.


It should be pointed out here that both Mozart and Beethoven (and Brahms and others) gravitated towards contrapuntal textures as they matured. The depth and range of expression afforded by these textures allowed them to pour themselves into the music in both a spiritual way as well as highly intellectual way. (Most great composers seem to possess these two qualities at least.)

Mozart suffered a personal crisis when he first encountered Bach's Well Tempered Clavier with it's demonstration of fuge at it's pinnacle. He flat out felt he didn't know anything about composition at that point. Soon his music was brimming with his own take countrapuntal writing such as his fuge in the Fantasia in C for piano. In his later symphonies you hear incredible rhythmically offset fugal passages as in his 35th symphony which had such a profound effect on Stravinsky almost two centuries later.

Beethoven who was busy at innovation and expansion of forms in the classical style (which was very Mozartean as in his first two symphonies) begins to pepper his work with fugal like passages as in the Fifth symphony where he really created a new sound and style. Sure enough this gave way to pure fuge as his personal life deepened creating a need for the deepest musical forms.

Fuge remains a wonder of depth, precision, and potential in the hands of an earnest musician who has something to say to the world.

Dave Connor

[Fabio]

This thread is a mixture of music history, and personal memories, then I add mine:

- I was really surprised by the nice and unexpected use of the fugue in Bruckner's Te Deum, as in the masterpiece German Requiem of J.Brahams.

- After probably undered of time, still some tears drop out from my eyes, when I hear the last stretto entrance of the trumpet, playing the Subject of the Dona Nobis Pacem giga-fugue ending the B Minor Mass of J.S.B.

- I still am convinced, against all modern criticist and researcher, that the final fugue of the Art of Fugue, was never finished by J.S.B.
But not because of his premature departure, but because of his extreme use of didactic writing. From two voices inventions to the two volumes of WTC, and from Musical Offer to Goldberg and canonic variations, every book published by J.S.B. was a school book for future musicians.
The Art of Fugue was the extreme didactic work, and the last fugue arrive to the point where all 4 subjects are ready to rejoin. Why writing what is the end? It's obvious that the end is the last entrance of the main subject, but it's not obvious how and how long to use and combine it with the rest of the thematic material. Then I imagine Johan Sebastian smailing and saying: "Ok my friend and pupil, that's all, now go on your self...!"
Maybe I'm an unbelievable romantic, but this will be my vision for ever! :o

[newmewzikboy]

Thats an interesting take Fabio. I have no idea why that would be conjectured though?

He was a dirt poor lutheran when he died. Ever read his will?
Not one of his children helped support the daughters or his wife once he died, and they basically perished.
With all those children, there are NO descendents of JSB as far as anyone can tell.

My own take on JSB is:
He must have been quite a bastard to work with.
He had a very very distinct system of writing that made him able to write very quickly. (just look at the patterns in his 16 note groupings).
He detested the theoretics of CP that were evoked of the day, including fuxian like theories of CP (yes fux was later).
He liked beer and coffee.
He was a beta tester for GPO.

[Fabio]

My own take on JSB is:
He must have been quite a bastard to work with.
He had a very very distinct system of writing that made him able to write very quickly. (just look at the patterns in his 16 note groupings).
He detested the theoretics of CP that were evoked of the day, including fuxian like theories of CP (yes fux was later).
He liked beer and coffee.
He was a beta tester for GPO.

Where are you from, and how are you old NMB? :D

Yes, he was hard-to-work-with as almost all other genious.

Yes, he wrote quickly. Yes, he had systems. But no one analist today is able to write so quickly and so deeply in the main time!!!

Yes, he detested CP contemporary semplification, being able to surpass every other CP expert of his time (maybe of all times!).

Yes, he liked beer and coffee, as wurstel and crauts, as his fat body shows; I love him for that also, being a beer and food fat lover me too!

Yes he was a beta tester of some instrument recorded in GPO, as of sound libraries creators of his time (clavier and organ makers)! :D

All above, let me still love him as the best, simply the best, musical mind of ever. I love music so much that I love Behetoven as I love U2, Palestrina and Monteverdi as T. Monk and J.Lennon. And I can't forget J.Williams. But....

J.S.B. will be my top for ever. :cool:

[beach]

I cannot talk about fugue as a music style, I have no academic knowledge, but let me say that J.S.Bach is the MASTER of ALL TIME and for me the greater musician ever seen on the earth!!!!
Just my thought.....
Sincerely,http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Roberto

[newmewzikboy]

He was also VERY SURE, in that he did NOT think of himself as a genius at all..., and felt very strongly that anyone could do what he could do, if they put their mind and heart into it.

I love him just for that. And the more i know, the more I believe he is right, and we are projecting fantasies of genius on composers when really we should look to see how ordinary human beings they all were.

[newmewzikboy]

PS Fabio, I am old enough to be your great grandmother

[Fabio]

He was also VERY SURE, in that he did NOT think of himself as a genius at all..., and felt very strongly that anyone could do what he could do, if they put their mind and heart into it.

I love him just for that. And the more i know, the more I believe he is right, and we are projecting fantasies of genius on composers when really we should look to see how ordinary human beings they all were.

Yes, he told to people asking how he was able to reach his level, that it's a matter of hard and honest work.

But...
He told also to have "a little talent for the music" received by God!

But...
He made also harpsicordist and organist run away befor certamen, to avoid defeat, after they hearn him playing keyboards! He won an Organist job, using only pedals during audition, because the jury told "stop, please, it's enough: with hands it will be only better...the job is your one!"

The history is busy of strange and surprising tales (and we are not in Mozart time yet...;-))...but I agree, his humanity is what I like first of all.

[Fabio]

PS Fabio, I am old enough to be your great grandmother

My God: you were with Bach refining the GPO beta release then...

(Anna Magdalena isn't your real name, I hope...;-))

Now I understand a lot of things.... :D

[newmewzikboy]

Talent is cheap. Everyone has some inate talent.

A good looking woman is harder to find...

But not in Milan...

[newmewzikboy]

Think I found the taste of another one:

Walton Viola concerto final movement...

[joaz]

Think I found the taste of another one:

Walton Viola concerto final movement...
One of my all time favourite pieces. :)
regards

[newmewzikboy]

soundz like a temp track to Schinders list...hmmm i wonder...

Violin concerto good too!

[dpc]

Given John Williams influence by William Walton I wouldn't be at all surprised. The classic JW woodwind rushes (among many other similar features) are actually classic Walton. These can be found in Walton's Coronation March composed for Elizableth's acension to the throne.

Dave Connor

[newmewzikboy]

Im shocked! Johnny? A thief?? What a let down. I TRUSTED that guy! :eek:

heh.

Hmmm, for some strange reason, I can't find a single fugue written by walter piston, who is my hero?

Joaz: I tried to download your MP3's, but they don't come down. Also one of your scores. I was going to take a peek...

[joaz]

Im shocked! Johnny? A thief?? What a let down. I TRUSTED that guy! :eek:

heh.

Hmmm, for some strange reason, I can't find a single fugue written by walter piston, who is my hero?

Joaz: I tried to download your MP3's, but they don't come down. Also one of your scores. I was going to take a peek...
I just checked the links and they seemed to be working fine.How puzzling. :confused:
Here is a link to my Homepage which has a couple of pdf scores.
Joaz Homepage (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/joe-cavanagh)
regards

[newmewzikboy]

Seems to work now. I will have a go

[newmewzikboy]

joaz. Nice piece....Sulis. Textures!

Not sure the harp is playable, what what do I know.

Wheres GPO???!!!

[joaz]

joaz. Nice piece....Sulis. Textures!

Not sure the harp is playable, what what do I know.

Wheres GPO???!!!
Thanks New,glad you enjoyed the piece.I myself was more than a little concerned about the playability of the Harp part.I have written orchestrally for Harp before, but never an extended solo piece.
I had a Harp teacher look over it for me,and she said One bar was unplayable{Too many pedal changes :rolleyes: ),but the rest was OK.
Having said that I dont think it is suitable for a beginner. :) I studied closely the score of Ravel's Intro and Allegro,(same line-up as Sulis) and compared to his Harp part,mine is a stroll in the park. :D .
When you say, "Wheres GPO ???!!!", er I am not sure what you mean.The piece is all GPO. Is that what you meant.? :confused:
regards

[newmewzikboy]

Yes, the strings probably are what is bothering me, since I build from solos instead of sections...and disgarded the sections as unsuitable for me.

I probably am referring to this same measure the harp teacher was mentioning - 94-95?

splitting hairs...

good stuff though...in my taste!

[joaz]

Yes, the strings probably are what is bothering me, since I build from solos instead of sections...and disgarded the sections as unsuitable for me.

I probably am referring to this same measure the harp teacher was mentioning - 94-95?

splitting hairs...

good stuff though...in my taste!
I am grateful for the close attention you have given to this piece.I dont think it is splitiing hairs at all.I think it is extremely useful for other composers to check for any technical difficulties in a piece.And I sincerely thank you for your kindness, in giving up some time to look at my offering. :)

Actually it wasnt bar 94-95 that was the problem.Although she did suggest an enharmonic respelling of the G# to an Ab in 94 and a respelling of the F# to Gb in 95.In fact she suggested many ingenious respellings throughout the piece,to facillitate pedalling.
The offending bar(s) were 157-158 where she writes..."These pedal moves are not possible"....... I have yet to go back to the piece to re-edit and incorporate her many excellent suggestions.
This piece was a first,for me in many ways.
1st "Classical" piece for 23 years.
1st Gpo piece.
1st Sibelius produced score.
1st pdf file of score.
I have gotten a little more accustomed to this workflow now, and intend to revisit this piece and look for a publisher for it. It is aimed squarely at the Recital hall. And in the eternal balancing act between it Looking right, and Sounding right,I leaned a little too heavily towards the Looks department. :(

The sounds are all GPO.
Flute
Clarinet(in A)
Harp
Solo Vln1 (Guaneri KS)
Solo Vln2 (Gagli KS)
Solo Vla (KS)
Solo Cello(Cello 1 KS)
There are no ensemble strings at all, just standard String Quartet.Try as I might, I could not avoid the dreaded machine gun effect in the opening Allegro section.
I think when I revisit this piece I could make it sound 20/30% better.
I am glad you liked it,it took 3 weeks to write and 6 weeks to produce a score.It is nice to get some intelligent feedback on it. :)
regards

[newmewzikboy]

94-95: eb-f#-g#-b-d-f <=== seemed pretty tight to me: d-eb-f-f#-g#, but with ab enharmonic I see its ok

Easier to see issues when you put in pedal marks, either as

D C B / E F G A

and repeating these at every change:

D# C B / Eb F G A

or just marking the changes:

D-D# / E-Eb

or

D# / Eb
Yeah, something sounds strange about the solo to me. Maybe its because of the MP3. How did you record?

[joaz]

or just marking the changes:

D-D# / E-Eb

or

D# / Eb
Yeah, something sounds strange about the solo to me. Maybe its because of the MP3. How did you record?
Yes that it is how my harp playing friend has marked the part D-D# etc.
I did it in Cubase, then export midi to Sibelius, use the legato plug-in, Bring it back to Cubase for final tweak, then master in Wavelab. I think that the harp level is perhaps unrealistically loud,at least for the concert hall,on recordings they tend to be close-mic'ed.
When I finish the Score finally,I will write in all the pedal changes.
regards

[newmewzikboy]

Try using my Studio Orchestra on the strings with the HALL1 reverb setting and see how it goes. If you dont have an ASIO soundcard, try the ASIO4ALL drivers...they relaly work!