Cheap Orchestration Tricks

[newmewzikboy]

Ok, I'd like to survey and make a list of orchestration devices...in simile to Gardner Reeds Thesaurus. Here we go...my contribution:

Flute and Harp
Oboe and Harp
{insert your soprano/alto instrument} + harp

[Skysaw]

Well, if this thread is about interesting combination choices (I don't see that as "cheap tricks"), then here are some from my personal bag of tricks:

Horn + Horn + Tuba = beautiful brass trio
Bsn + muted Tpt + Picc (three parallel octaves) = pointy biting melody
Intertwining harp / celesta / glock / piano = ooh, sparkly!
Bass Clar + Bass Flute = haunting duo
CBs doubled at the octave by violas = more interesting than CBs + Cellos

However, my personal "defining" trick as a composer is this:
If you insert a note by accident, entertain the notion of keeping it there.

[newmewzikboy]

Yes, muted trumpet is a good substitute instrument for an oboe...

[cptexas]

Bassoons playing in thirds. I don't know...it just sounds GOOD! (to me, anyway)
Violin and flute: very versitle. It can make the violins more transparent, or give the violins a more haunting quality.
Contrabassoon, bassoons, bass clarinets, and clarinets in octaves: good for an underlaying melody. If you need it to come out more, add the basses and cellos in octaves (or the violas, as mentinoed by Skysaw)
Piano in octaves: always a nice 'n' big, grand sound
Fat pipe organ/brass chords: Good for a royal, or plain BIG sound.

That's all I can think of at the moment.
Good thread! Keep 'em comin'!!! :D

-Chris

[newmewzikboy]

Everyone seems to love the 8va.....FX

Hmmm bassoon...say arent you a basoonist???

[squoze]

For any beginners (like me) out there, I put togehter this (http://www.datalane.net/tcc/symph.xls) excel spreadsheet with some instrument combinations that are listed at the Vienna Symphonic Library website (http://vsl.co.at/english/pages/instruments/a_few_words/overview.htm)
Its a rather unwieldy spreadsheet but I do refer to it to see if certain intruments will work together nicely. It is zoomed out to 50%--you can zoom it to 100% or just click on the cells and read what it says up at the top.
I'm assuming that these combinations are as they say they are, I wouldn't really know.
Tom C

[southportJim]

For any beginners (like me) out there, I put togehter this (http://www.datalane.net/tcc/symph.xls) excel spreadsheet with some instrument combinations that are listed at the Vienna Symphonic Library website (http://vsl.co.at/english/pages/instruments/a_few_words/overview.htm)
...
I'm assuming that these combinations are as they say they are, I wouldn't really know.
Tom C

Cool spreadsheet...Thanks! Hopefully, as you say, the information is accurate. I'm sure we'll hear about it if it's not.
;-)

[SeanHannifin]

Thanks for the link to the spreadsheet, it looks nifty!

Rimsky-Korsakov's orchestration book also lists a lot of interesting orchestral combinations that are sure to work.

[Skysaw]

The wonderful thing about GPO is that you can try out any combination you may dream up. R-K had some amazingly wonderful ideas, but you might too! If you're curious about a combination you've never heard anyone mention before, you have an orchestra at your fingertips to see if it works.

[cptexas]

Ooh!!! I just thought of another one!

horn and clarinet. Then the horn can play the melody while the clarinet(s) play the harmony. That way the melody is stronger than the harmony and the harmony doesn't overpower and make it muddy. And they also blend really nicely. It's said that bassoon (yes, I am a bassoonist) is supposed to go 'best' with horn, but I experimented in GPO and I really think the clarinets sound best.

Being a bassoonist, I really love the sound of the bassoon a lot and think that the bassoon should be heard more in the orchestra, so this is what I do in tuttis where the bassoon(s) would otherwise be covered up. In a big tutti, there is usually the melody, harmony, and some sort of baseline. Sometimes there's counterpoint, so I'll just pretend there's counterpoint so we don't get bored. What I'd do is give all the typical melody instruments (flute, oboe, trumpet, 1st and 2nd violins) the melody and harmony. The counterpoint instruments might go to clarinet, viola, horn and maybe cello. The baseline would go to the basses, trombones, and tuba. To make the bassoon(s) come out more, I'll have them playing the melody in an octave where nobody else is (with no harmony). So (going from highest pitch to lowest) you have the melody (and it's harmony), counterpoint (and it's harmony maybe), bassoons, and baseline. The listener hears these four elements. Mission accomplished! The beautiful bassoon sound is heard!!!! :D

I like to use this trick. You can make different variations of this and use it to make a line come out more than an instrument. The lower bassoon melody would bring out the melody. Or if the counterpoint wasn't enough you could put the bassoons in on counterpoint in it's own octave.

It's fun!! :D

*novel of a post over*

-Chris

[cptexas]

The wonderful thing about GPO is that you can try out any combination you may dream up. R-K had some amazingly wonderful ideas, but you might too! If you're curious about a combination you've never heard anyone mention before, you have an orchestra at your fingertips to see if it works.
AMEN!!!

This was one of my points in begging my mom to let me get GPO. She would always ask me how it would help me in the long run. Well, there you have it!!

:)

[rwayland]

However, my personal "defining" trick as a composer is this:
If you insert a note by accident, entertain the notion of keeping it there.

Plenty of my music has been improved by that device!!

Richard

[musomark]

I've just been arranganging a fairly simple song. Oboe & flute alternate phrases on the verse. The chorus has a harmony line a third below the melody. I put the flute on top(melody) with the harmony below played by the oboe. I sounded dreadful as the the oboe overpowered the flute. I switched the instruments around and the oboe melody sang out with the flute adding warm, sweet thirds below.

Without Gpo I wouldn't have had the courage to try this combination. :D

I'm waiting for my friend to return from vacation so I can talk him into recording the vocal part. I'll post the finished version. :)

Mark

[newmewzikboy]

CP - more bassoon spinning =). The horn and clarinet are considered "blending instruments" and are not polar in use or tone. I believe another combination are horns ABOVE trumpets

Oboe and Flute. Depends on register. I have a piece now where the Oboe and flute are playing along together w/ flute in lead quite nicely...

[jesshmusic]

My favorite trick (currently) is instruments seperated by 2 or more octaves. In my string quartet I have the violin I playing the melody 2 octaves above the cello, for example.

This came about from a Trio I composed for Flute, Bassoon, and Piano for a friend of mine who is now the Professor of Bassoon in Duluth. I wanted the piano to sound like the stuff Ligeti wrote that was used in Eyes Wide Shut. So I wrote a slow, somber piano intro with the right hand in the upper register and the left in the low. Far apart. Opposite Mozart. (lol). It was also a kind of "Hey this piece is an accompanied duet between a baritone and soprano instrument!" type of statement. Then I did the same when the flute and bassoon arrive. From then on, I am kind of hooked on doing it. I am sure those that listened to my string quartet heard it. I do it quite often.

[cptexas]

Yeah! That two octaves apart thing works well!

I'll have to try the horn above the trumpet trick. Never heard of that one. I always thought the horn sounded best in unison with the trumpet or an octave below adding warmth.

-Chris

[ricz]

Here are just a few of my fave combos:

-alto flute and english horn. It's like aural velvet.
-bsns and horns in octaves or splitting a big chord, they blend so well
-piccolo and bass clarinet 2+ octaves apart (a la cartoon)
-vibraphone (with slow motor) and flute


Best,
Ric

[Skysaw]

My favorite trick (currently) is instruments seperated by 2 or more octaves. In my string quartet I have the violin I playing the melody 2 octaves above the cello, for example.
In the final section of my View of Mt Fuji From Edo (http://www.allhands.com/mp3/classical/fuji.mp3), I have clarinet and solo violin seperated by two octaves playing a melody (about 6 min in). In the original score, I specified the clarinet to be non-vibrato and the violin as "dolce." I think the sound I was going for is well-represented in the GPO version here. Very transparent, haunting, and sweet.

I wrote that a number of years before GPO, so I was very pleased when it came out more or less how I heard it in my head!

[newmewzikboy]

so many octaves guys =)

[newmewzikboy]

Ordered a copy of Gardner Reeds Thesaurus today. Should be interesting. Saw it once in a library, but never considered it seriously. Used first editions are going for around 300 $ can you believe it?

[Fabio]

Yes, muted trumpet is a good substitute instrument for an oboe...

haaargh!| I can't believe it! As an oboist, to be "lowered" to a simil-muted-trumpet is a big offense for me... :D

I'm joking, the muted trumpet really is similar to a ...very bad oboist playing in lower register! ;)

[newmewzikboy]

I prefer just the mouth piece of a trumpet, as it reminds me of Chekoslovakian oboists...

[Fabio]

TECHNICAL CLEAR UP:

I like to joke with NMB, but out of jokes,

- the trumpet has several affinities with the oboe, and join very well.

oboe+trumpet is a good combi in expressive as articulated phrazing. the muted trumpet is playing as the comic register of the oboe (less vibrato and more rude) used for caracteristic phrases.

A soft trumpet, as a classic soprano sax, are very good substitution of the oboe, with stronger (louder) sound (good for band or outdoor performances for instance).

[newmewzikboy]

Bravissimo, <clap clap> Fabio!

[SteveHanlon]

scary passages combine:

trem strings + 1/2 trill strings

[newmewzikboy]

Steve - very nice!!!! I never thought of this one...

[efiebke]

Gosh. . . I wish I new enough about orchestration to be able to give an answer here.

But I learned a lot of cool "tricks" tonight! :D

Thanks! :)

Ted

[Tangram]

This is a little tool I constructed in Excel. It's a Random Ensemble Generator that creates instrument combinations which could be tried if they seems interesting. This is the very first version of it, and you can only select how many instruments and if to exclude any. There is no manual - I guess it's kind of self explanatory. I made this toy to boost imagination and to come up with combinations that might be less than ordinary but still interesting to try out.

There's is to different versions, one for Excel97-2000 and one for 97.

http://82.183.160.44/mats/EnsembleGenerator2000.xls
http://82.183.160.44/mats/EnsembleGenerator97.xls


Mats

[newmewzikboy]

Cool Tangrem! Thanks for the tool!

[Styxx]

HEY NMB! Watch me pull a rabbit out of a tuba! :D

[trumpet82]

Pizz. and marimba unis. sounds good.

[newmewzikboy]

Pizz and Vibraphone

Vibraphone and harmonic

[Markleford]

This is a little tool I constructed in Excel. It's a Random Ensemble Generator that creates instrument combinations which could be tried if they seems interesting. Thanks, Mats: it's very cool!

Is the "GPO Only" option supposed to work in the 2000 version? I'm getting non-GPO instruments in the selection.

- m

[Tangram]

Thanks, Mats: it's very cool!

Is the "GPO Only" option supposed to work in the 2000 version? I'm getting non-GPO instruments in the selection.

- m

Non of the options are working actually, this is a "beta version". Only "Number of instruments" (cell C9) is affecting the outcome. Other options are (at least should be) greyed. They are there just as an outline for coming feature possibilities.
However - you could go to the second sheet named "Instruments" and either put a "Y" in column E for the instruments you want to exclude - or put a "0" (zero) in column D (or space it out).

I'm planning to implement more features in the future, but I don't know when.

/Mats

[Markleford]

Thanks again: it's still very inspirational to me as a bit of a game/challenge to make the random ensemble work!

- m

[brycej]

Hi,

I just joined up and am just wondering if someone can put me on the right track. I'm using Sibelius at the moment and it seems that when I used percussion I don't get the full use of instruments on any clef I choose. I'd like to use the percussion clef and even change the instruments around so I can play a C above middle C for example and get a snare. Either way I'm only getting a few of the instruments that the Kontakt keyboard loaded with Bas ic Orch Percussion has available. I'd appreciate some help... thanks.

[newmewzikboy]

Please post this question in tehnical help

This is not an orchestration device...and off topic

[lonearrngr@comcast.n]

speaking of octave combinations:

another nice light melodic sound for slow moving melodies:

harp+ vibes+ orch. bells (in 3 8va )

very nice over mid register muted strings.

[Tom_Davis]

Cool spreadsheet...Thanks! Hopefully, as you say, the information is accurate. I'm sure we'll hear about it if it's not.
;-)

I appreciate your spreadsheet. It opened the path to experimenting with many interesting combinations.

[Nick Batzdorf]

My favorite trick: cut and paste. :)

[cptexas]

My favorite trick: cut and paste. :)
Dere ya go!!! :D :D

Me too! :p :|: