Comparison of Samples to Real Orchestra - Can you tell what is real?

[Garritan]

A few months back, Dan did an A/B comparison (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34603) of a sample mockup and a recording of a real orchestra playing a Clara Schumman Concerto and also the Second Movement of Dvoraks New World Symphony. This time he has completed the First movement of the Dvorak (Symphony No. 9 in E minor) and has again done a spectacular job.

Here is Dan's version of Dvorak's New Work Symphony alternating between both real orchestra and samples:

http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Dvorakcompareandsave192kbps.MP3

See if you can tell where the samples are playing and where the real orchestra is playing.

If you can hear the differences, list the spots where you think the real orchestra is playing and where it is samples.

This is something fun and I encourage others to do what Dan did and to emulate the masters. Many students in the colleges and universities often take an orchestral piece and do mock-ups of the classics. This is a great way to get into the mind of a composer/conductor. Also going from MIDI-mlockup to real orchestra, as we did in the GPO Competition, is also helpful in learning a great deal about orchestration.

If you can figure out which segments are the real orchestra and which are samples, let us know. The last time some posted that the differences were obvious (after the identity of real/samples were posted). This time let's see if you can the difference without the times being posted.

Dan can perhaps further tweak and refine his orchestral mockup based on your suggestions.

Thanks again Dan for showing us what is possible. As with learning real instruments, there is a great deal of skill and expertise that your have acquired.

Comments and suggestions are welcome as to how to improve the orchestral rendition.

Bravo Dan!

Gary Garritan

[SeanHannifin]

I could make some guesses, but to be quite honest, this is so well done, I'd rather just sit back and listen to the great piece! :D As far as I'm concerned, Dan is the master!!


This is something fun and I encourage others to do what Dan did and to emulate the masters. Many students in the colleges and universities often take an orchestral piece and do a mock-up of the classics. This is a great way to get into the mind of a composer/conductor.
Very true! And with GPO, you can easily hear each instrument or section separately, an incredible education technique. I will definitely have to start doing some myself!

You always amaze me, Dan!

[Christopher_Reeves]

The distinguishing factor for me was that the strings were bright in GPO

[falcon1]

Gary, yes it could be heard - but very good effort from Dan Kury! Don't want to ruin the fun for the others so no hints from me at this point. :D

[RickD]

I'm out of town listening on 18 dollar headphones with my laptop, and I can't detect any change between GPO and the Sym, though there were a few places where the attacks on strings sounded like they could have been GPO.

What can I say, another stunning job by the maestro!

Rick

[AVBunyan]

See if you can figure out which segments are the real orchestra and which are samples. Dan can perhaps further tweak and refine his orchestral mockup based on your suggestions.

Bravo Dan!
I'm the "low man on the totem pole" here - I cannot hear a difference so this tells me two things:

1. GPO is awesome- the possilities are lunlimited!
2. Dan and others like him are amazing!

I'm inspired! http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

God bless.

[Garritan]

Any guesses?

[Markleford]

Wouldn't dare to guess!

It's fantasitic to be able to do such a convinving mock-up in itself.

It's even more amazing to have it match an existing orchestra.

- m

[DPDAN]

Hi everyone! :)
thank you for the compliments... Christopher, where are the strings bright? ;)
come on Falc, spit it out... :) take a chance, also for those who would consider cheating by using the link from my other topic and lining them up in your DAW, shame on you, you shouldn't have to do that :p

Make some guesses, nobody will be exactly correct. I messed up when I did it. I will tell you that sometimes the crossfades take place at rests, while other times, the splice is in a spot that has no relevance to time.

Have some fun with this, we all could use a little cheering up and some carefree fun in our lives these days.

Thank you for posting this Gary. :)


Dan

[Markleford]

Okay, I'll take one stab. Listening through headphones this time...

4:52 there's series of repeating trumpet notes that are too precise to me, including a little stereo glitch at 4:55. That would lead me to believe GPO.

- m

[Rhap2]

Dan:

As always, a tremendous bit of artistry in mixing for this mock-up. I could guess, but I am at a loss to back up what I think are "real" or "GPO."

You are the best...........

Jack

[joaz]

I am only able to listen through cans on the laptop @ the moment, but my considered opinion is that it is a trick question, and it is all Live Orchestra. :D :) :D
Seriously though, you have raised the bar so high, I am gonna have to get out a spectrograph to check, coz I don't trust my ears anymore.
OK hands up everyone who thinks sample libraries are overated, and we should all go back to synths and soundfonts????? ;)
regards

[fastlane]

I'd guess that only beginning is an orchestra and the rest is GPO. It just sounds more analog to me than the rest of the movement.

[nofish]

It sounds like it switches to an orchestra around 1:15 then back to GPO at about 1:45

[Styxx]

There's just no comparison. I've compared the comparison and have come to the conclusion to compare the comparison there is just no comparison.:D

[Richard N.]

Is that the conclusion of your conclusive comparison conclusion?

[Melody]

I can't tell the difference :confused:

[Styxx]

I can't tell the difference :confused: One is Coke the other is Pepsi. :rolleyes:

[Karl Garrett]

One is Coke the other is Pepsi. :rolleyes:

Actually it‘s all Pepsi. That‘s all Dan drinks. :D

Dan, Now I have to go to the Dr. And have my ears cleaned out.

You‘ve just added more complexity to my already inferior inferiority complex. :)

Karl

[Nelson]

Wow! Didn't know GPO can be this good. May I ask: What's the longest duration with GPO? the shortest? Knowing nothing about GOP at the moment, I'd like to give it a try! :rolleyes:

(Not trying to steal the thread. Could someone point me a link or direction to start having some fun? I think GPO was included in my purchase of Finale 2006)

[Paul Blankenau]

I'll dive in. This is a partial list of differencess I thought I heard:

Start real
:18 GPO
:42 real
:50 GPO
1:06 real
2:38 GPO

I could have kept going, but decided to just sit back and enjoy, and I'm probably wrong anyway.

[KeithW]

I think the fact that we can even have this discussion is amazing. Just a few years ago it would be unthinkable that one could do a virtual orchestra with nothing more than some computer hardware and software. I've been trying to do this with old-fashioned hardware synths (in my case Roland XV synths) for years, and just gave up. They are ok for approximating what your score would sound like, but not very well. I am especially excited about J&BB, because NO hardware synths have ever done justice to saxes, trumpets, and other wind instruments.

Thanks to all out there who are taking the time to do all of these wonderful things and passing tips on down to us part-time dabblers.

Keith W.

[southportJim]

Thanks to all out there who are taking the time to do all of these wonderful things and passing tips on down to us part-time dabblers.

Keith W.

No joke! So far I've only listened on a cheap pair of headphones, but it ALL sounds real to me.
;-)

[wes37]

To nobody in particular:

"Say, DPDAN could make a boatload of cash if he were to put together a video tutorial of how he does his mock-ups...and Gary would probably benefit as well."

*hint, hint*

[DPDAN]

I'm game, anything to make a buck these days.... :)

Dan

[Karl Garrett]

To nobody in particular:

"Say, DPDAN could make a boatload of cash if he were to put together a video tutorial of how he does his mock-ups...and Gary would probably benefit as well."

*hint, hint*
Not sure how much cash I can come up with, but I think I can find a leaky old boat around here somewhere, if anyone wants to fill it. :)

Karl

[southportJim]

*hint, hint*

I'll second that...is there gonna be a GROUP BUY?
;-)

[wes37]

I'll second that...is there gonna be a GROUP BUY?
;-)
I just come up with the great ideas. I leave the details to the little people. :D

[RickD]

I'm game, anything to make a buck these days.... :)

Dan

give me your address. :)

Rick

[dynamix]

Dan,

Are you gonna be at AES this fall?

I gotta meet the man who did this!

If we were in the room so I could shout, there! Wait, no, there! At the proper times maybe I caught you a few moments...

But more than likely I'd just end up looking silly.

I feel unworthy to be a part of this forum after listening to this! (bow, bow, bow, walking backwards slowly to the door, bow.)

Erik

[DPDAN]

sPaul, Keith, Jim, Wes, Karl, thank you so much!

Oh my word Erik, :) I hope to be at AES, that's the plan anyway,
I hope to meet you there. You are very kind, and thank you for the nice compliments.

Paul, your times are pretty close, but one of them is way off, and in favor of GPO sounding like the real deal,,, but that's a good thing. ;)

RickD,

GOS $599
GPO $249

undeserved compliments,
PRICELESS !
for everything else, there's PayPal

Dan :D

[Garritan]

Kudos to those who were brave enough to guess and some got remarkably close.

Here is a narrated version with the times:
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Dvorakcomparison-narration.mp3
And here are the times for the original file (which is linked in the first post of this thread:):

0:00 Real
:15 GPO
:40 Real
:49 GPO
1:24 Real
1:38 GPO
1:53 Real
2:13 GPO
2:24 Real
2:36 GPO
2:45 Real
3:11 GPO
3:30 Real
3:47 GPO
4:16 Real
4:27 GPO
4:59 Real
5:10 GPO
5:23 Real
5:30 GPO
6:09 Real
6:24 GPO
7:10 Real
7:30 GPO
8:08 Real
8:20 GPO
8:48 Real
8:53 GPO
Thanks to Dan for doing this. It must have been very time consuming to do this comparison and takes a remarkable skill to do so. What is amzing is that one person can do this - Dan wore the hats of conductor, engineer and each and every player of the orchestra.

If you listen closely the differences become more apparent. Although this is a fun exercise and samples can be an excellent learning tool, it is not a replacement for the real thing. Orchestras are made up of people who devote their lives to perfecting their instrument. This will not be replaced by static samples anytime soon.

Thanks for listening.

Gary Garritan

[DPDAN]

Thank you everyone again for listening.

I would like to add a note to Gary's post,,,,

The times that are posted are for the original posted link without the narration.

Use this link (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Dvorakcomparisondemo192kbps.MP3) that coincides with the crossfade times.
This link is the piece without the narration. Use it to listen to if you want to simultaneously look at your guesses.

Good job by so many, thanks again everyone!
And thank you Sir Gary :)

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank all the folks at MOTU for the incredible editing and mixing features in Digital Performer.

dpDan

[joaz]

I demand a recount.!!
I just got through listening to the narrated version,and there are parts that are supposed to be GPO,but definitely sound real to me. :o :)
I must confess to being even more confused than ever.I was slyly confident that I could guess 80-90%,but in reality it was more like 40-50%. :o :o
Two things occur to me.
1.I must get my ears syringed.
2.Dan is inches away from passing the musical equivalent of the Turing test.
I think Gary is correct in saying that samples won't replace orchestras,any time soon.
But having said that, how many of you would pony up to buy DPDAN cd,of Dvorak 9.
I would for one ,because he has raised this beyond being a fun exercise, and into the realms of deep musical artistry.
My sincere congrats Dan. If you raise the bar any higher, we are all gonna need binoculars to find it. :)
regards

[DPDAN]

Oh Joaz, you are a gem!


You are so fun to have here, and I certainly treasure your compliments! :)

Thanks tons,
Dan