Breath Controller for GPO

[dynamix]

In regards to volume and brightness of sound...

Without additional programing, does GPO respond to breath controller?

I've heard its the most expressive form of MIDI control.

Any currently manufactured controllers that anyone can recommend?

Erik

[Jeff Turner]

I haven't tried a breath controller, but I don't see why you couldn't use one that's set up to control modulation data and control GPO that way.

JT

[cptexas]

Dumb question:
What's a breath controller and how does it work? :confused:

[wst3ae]

Dumb question:

There are no dumb questions!


What's a breath controller and how does it work? :confused:

A breath controller is a device that translates breath gestures into MIDI continuos controller messages.

There are two types, dedicated controlles such as the Yamaha BC-1, BC-2, and BC-3, and wind controllers like the EVI and EWI and all those little Casio horns. The BC-1 is this little plastic gizmo you have to hold in your mouth by gripping it with your teeth, the other two are headset type thingys (don't you just love the tech talk?)

If you are using a dedicated controller you'll need something to do the translation, and the only thing I know of, other than some of the early Yamaha synthesizers, is the Yamaha MCS2, which has a jack for the previously mentioned Yamaha controllers, plus lots of pedals and switches.

There are/were a couple of boutique made MIDI boxes that accepted breath controller outputs, but I don't know if they are still around. A brief search turned up nothing.

I use the MCS2/BC-1, and it can add quite a bit of expressiveness to a MIDI performance. I've used it in conjuncton with both keyboard and guitar-to-MIDI controllers, and I find it most useful with a keyboard, as the guitar controllers provide a lot of expresiveness already... that and the fact that I really have to concentrate on my playing to avoid all sorts of glitches.

The biggest drawback to the EVI/EWI or Casio horns is that you have to hold them like a horn, of course you can also play them, and that could be an advantage!!!

If you try a google search on EVI, EWI, Steiner-Parker, BC-1, BC-2, BC-3, or MCS2 I think you'll find more information than you want!

Bill

[dynamix]

Great work Bill...

Erik

[southportJim]

I use the MCS2/BC-1, and it can add quite a bit of expressiveness to a MIDI performance. I've used it in conjuncton with both keyboard and guitar-to-MIDI controllers...

Bill

Bill,

This is slightly off topic, but can you provide some more info on guitar-to-midi controllers? All the stuff that I've found on the web is several years old and points to various problems in implementing a guitar or bass midi controller. Just wondering if the technology had improved any since then.

I'm particulary insterested in fitting my 5-string electirc bass with a controller, but haven't found anything yet, so a guitar controller would be good too.

;-)
jim

[cptexas]

Thanks!
In terms of dumb questions, I think you'd be surprised at some things I've been asked.....OK, and that I've asked :o . Well, not dumb, but sure funny!! :D

Freshmen orientation last year. I was looking for one of my classes. The bell rang, and everyone disappeared from the halls. I had nobody to ask for directions and I was completely lost. I really didn't want to do this, but I got the courage and did. I poked my head into the nearest classroom and asked for directions to Mrs. Murray's room. Then I found out I was talking to Mrs. Murray. :o
:D

But I digress. Let's not get OT. I just had to share this!

-Chris

[Godfrey]

Without additional programing, does GPO respond to breath controller?

I've heard its the most expressive form of MIDI control.

Any currently manufactured controllers that anyone can recommend?
Erik,

Only a little work is needed to make GPO respond to a breath controller: use the X-Custom instruments, set the slider to respond to CC2, and move the slider somewhere into the negative range (a bug, I think) in order to set its sensitivity. The closer to zero, the less it responds to breath data. That's about it. I generally set the slider to -75%.

I use the Yamaha WX5 (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/420104/), and I absolutely love it. No messing with a mod wheel, just play it like it's a regular sax (or other similarly-fingered woodwind instrument; there are selectable fingering modes and transpositions), and you've got all the expression you can play into it. You can do pitch bend either with a thumb wheel or with the reed mouthpiece (there's a reedless mouthpiece as well).

Here's a brief snippet (http://www.shipbrook.com/mp3/TTSS-Intro.ogg) of something I'm working on; all the parts were played on the WX5. It's in Ogg Vorbis format; if you can't play that, I can put up an MP3 version of it. I did use a CAL script in SONAR to automatically insert sustain up/down events based on where I played legato and where I tongued the notes (that's the one thing the WX5 doesn't do, is send sustain events when you switch notes without a break in the airflow), but otherwise it's exactly as I played it.

That said, though, I still mainly use the keyboard for strings. If I use the WX5, I use dry instruments (not X-Custom), and use the thumb wheel as a mod wheel. The strings' attacks don't sound quite right to me when shaped by breath control. Keyboard instruments, harp and percussion are all much better with a keyboard, for the polyphony alone, but they also do weird things when played with breath control.

[dynamix]

Hey Jeff,

Sorry Ogg no play.

Briefly checked your site though...

The Stargate, Holy Cow!

Space 1999? Insanely incredible renders!

I was just reading in FILM SCORE about a Space 1999 music reissue.

The Startrek opening. Wow!

If you could repost as mp3, I'd much appreciate it.

Erik

[Godfrey]

Erik,

Thanks!

Here's the MP3 version (http://www.shipbrook.com/mp3/TTSS-Intro.mp3).

[dynamix]

Yea Jeff,

Thank's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

Erik

[wst3ae]

Bill,

This is slightly off topic, but can you provide some more info on guitar-to-midi controllers? All the stuff that I've found on the web is several years old and points to various problems in implementing a guitar or bass midi controller. Just wondering if the technology had improved any since then.

I'm particulary insterested in fitting my 5-string electirc bass with a controller, but haven't found anything yet, so a guitar controller would be good too.

;-)
jim

Perhaps we need a new thread... but for now:

Converting an audio signal to MIDI data is tricky. Guitars and basses provide a remarkable menu of obstacles<G>! First, there is that pesky laws of physics thing... with the exception of a pure (or close to it) sine wave, it is necessary to see approximately 1/2 of a cycle before you can calculate the frequency. And guitars and basses do not generate pure sine waves, so the half cycle rule is a real problem.

I'll skip the math for now, but the end result is that there is a finite, and non-zero amount of time required to gather sufficient information to calculate what note you just played!

That is further complicated by the fact that both instruments have very complex overtone structures, and sometimes the lower harmonics can be as loud as the fundamental. Just watch a guitar tuner hunt as you play a string with different techniques or at different places.

The last problem is the tremendous amount of energy contained in the attack. It looks like white noise, and you have to wait till it clears before you can start measuring.

Details... fortunately many companies are not bothered by details.

From here on I am going to focus on the guitar part of the marketplace, but everything applies almost equally to bass.

There are only three companies active in the guitar-to-MIDI marketplace that I know of, Roland, Yamaha, and Axon (there may be others, I don't follow it closely anymore since I have my rig<G>). All have converters that work remarkably well. Roland also sells hexaphonic pickups that work with most converters.

Another company, RMC, makes a hex pickup that uses piezo crystals mounted in the bridge instead of the more conventional magnetic approach. These pickups seem to work better with pitch-to-MIDI converters!

In addition to the Roland, Yamaha, and Axon gear, there is a lot of stuff available on the used market. Several companies tried to get around the physical limitations with optical sensors, switches built into the fret board, sonar, etc. I have a Yamaha G10 that uses several technologies, and tracks really well once you get it set up. Unfortunately, it uses six of the same string all slightly de-tuned, and thus is less than a joy to play!!

My rig is still evolving, though it consists of some fairly old gear. In addition to the G10, my primary converter is an IVL Pitchrider 7000 Mk II. If you can find one with the latest firmware they work really well. In very un-scientific tests I've compared it to a Roland GR-33, and I can't really feel a difference in the tracking. I can make both behave, and I can make both glitch!

I drive the IVL from a variety of 13 and 24 pin pickups, which is a bit of a hassle, since their proprietary pickup used 9 pins (I think!) For any of the guitars using 24 pin pickups I go through a Roland GR-300 and pickup the string signals after the individual compressors. That works really well. For the 13 pin pickups I built a cheesy little converter.

If you are willing to live through the learning curve... and you will have to adjust your playing technique to some degree since you are no longer playing a guitar or bass, but rather a synth or sampler... I think they are wonderful.

I'd probably buy the Axon converter or the Roland GR-33 if I were buying today, but some of the used gear offers a terrific value if you have the patience for the hunt! If I were buying used I'd look for the IVL based products. Kramer sold a rebadged Pitchrider, and so did a couple of others, including Digitech I think. The Roland gear has improved dramatically since the GR-700, and I wouldn't bother with anything older than the GR-30! If I didn't have the Yamaha G10 I wouldn't buy it<G>!

Questions???

[Markleford]

On MIDI guitar...

Time for me to trot out my old demo video, playing GPO solo violin with a Yamaha EZ-EG guitar. :)

http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/ezeg/e-guarn.mov (1.5Mb Quicktime)

More information on the project here:

http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/ezeg/

On Wind Controllers...

Godfrey, do you have any idea on whether the WX5 sends out raw sysex data for all of its gestures and functions? The beauty of the Yamaha EZ guitar is that it provides low-level performance data on the side so that you can interpret the data in any way you want, such that we've programmed our own performance modes (in script language) not bound by the conventional note and controller output stream.

I'd definitely buy into any wind controller that had that same level of gesture notification!

- m

[Markleford]

I did use a CAL script in SONAR to automatically insert sustain up/down events based on where I played legato and where I tongued the notes (that's the one thing the WX5 doesn't do, is send sustain events when you switch notes without a break in the airflow), but otherwise it's exactly as I played it.Forgot to mention: you could get my TenCrazy.com MFX AutoLegato (free!) to do this automatically in real-time.

- m

[southportJim]

wst3ae and Markleford,

Thanks for the tips. I'll check out what you have mentioned and if I have more questions will start a new thread.

thanks,
jim
;-)

[Godfrey]

Godfrey, do you have any idea on whether the WX5 sends out raw sysex data for all of its gestures and functions?No sysex data, according to the manual (http://yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/KeyboardsDMI/wx5.pdf)'s MIDI implementation chart, but it does transmit a number of General Controls (CC 16, 17, 18, 80 and 81) with which I'm unfamiliar. I'll have to experiment and see what it's sending for those controls; given that the WX5 is so configurable, they might very well contain raw performance data.

Forgot to mention: you could get my TenCrazy.com MFX AutoLegato (free!) to do this automatically in real-time.I use it all the time for solo lines I enter with a keyboard, but it doesn't seem to kick in if the NOTE OFF occurs before the subsequent NOTE ON during the same MIDI tick (which, sadly, is the way the WX5 does things when you play legato). If AutoLegato could handle a case like that, though, it'd be nigh perfect!

Your CC Map plugin, though, is perfect for handling the Kontakt bug when CC2=127.

[drdancm]

[QUOTE=dynamix]In regards to volume and brightness of sound...
" Without additional programing, does GPO respond to breath controller? I've heard its the most expressive form of MIDI control."

I have been using an Akai EWI for quite a number of years primarily w Roland JV1080 (inc Orch Exp card 1 and 2), Roland SC-8850 etc. for playing woodwind and brass.

It works extremely well w GPO using the X-controls. No programming needed, as someone else has already pointed out. Wind controllers are the easiest and best way to play wind samples (expressive vs percussive instruments).

I was all the more surprised how well GPO plays wind instruments with the Mod wheel/kbd. It is really incredible -far better for wind instruments than any other attempt w a kbd. Wind controller is also pretty good for strings (esp solo strings), although getting the bowing to sound right is a problem.

Flute, oboe, english horn sound absolutely spectacular and effortless. Brass also plays very well. As you can imagine I can barely wait for the JABB to ship. I'm also hoping that the next version of Band-in-a-Box will work with JABB.

The Akai EWI is far less popular than the Yamaha WX7, WX5, which has direct MIDI output. The EWI is also more expensive because it must have a special Akai EWI box which produces fairly bad synth sounds (if you want acoustic sounds) but is required to produce std MIDI output. I have played the WX7 and the WX5 and find the EWI to be far easier to play. The WX5 is very portable, the EWI is not because of the large full rack size box.

So there you have it. Let me know if you have anymore questions.

Dan

[Markleford]

No sysex data, according to the manual (http://yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/KeyboardsDMI/wx5.pdf)'s MIDI implementation chart,Ah, drat. Maybe in a future version.


I use it all the time for solo lines I enter with a keyboard, but it doesn't seem to kick in if the NOTE OFF occurs before the subsequent NOTE ON during the same MIDI tick (which, sadly, is the way the WX5 does things when you play legato). If AutoLegato could handle a case like that, though, it'd be nigh perfect!Ah, yeah, I think I'm relying upon the messages being strictly overlapped. Perhaps I'll look into the same-tick/off-on case as an option.

- m

[Godfrey]

Perhaps I'll look into the same-tick/off-on case as an option.
That would be fantastic! Thanks!

[Markleford]

That would be fantastic! Thanks!Okay, found some time to do it tonight. Get v1.1 from my site. Just raise the "Ticks Offset" value above 1 to get it to work (hopefully!).

Have fun,
- m

[Godfrey]

Markleford, you are a genius. And a fast worker, too!

Thanks so much!

Already planning the Track Templates,
Jeff

[Markleford]

No problem: I love allowing people to make music as easily as possible! If only I had a manufacturing facility at my disposal, I'd be designing hardware controllers, too! ;)

Drop me a line if any bugs or quirks pop up.

- m

[Symbiotic]

Hey, guys. Just wanted to offer this tip - the new CME controllers (which are a great value, BTW) have a dedicated BC input. Just connect a Yamaha BC3A and you're in business! No need to purchase a separate wind controller or BC to MIDI merge box (a la MIDI Solutions).

I'm going to pick up a BC3A very soon for use with Garritan and RA - looking forward to it!

[GDG]

Bill,

***
I'm particulary insterested in fitting my 5-string electirc bass with a controller, but haven't found anything yet, so a guitar controller would be good too.

;-)
jim

I think the problem is still high latency. Not so bad for gtr to MIDI, but the lower the frequency, the longer it takes the unit to figure out which note you're playing. Usually results in a really noticable delay for the lower bass notes, probably really exacerbated on a 5-string (I'm assuming you tune to low B). Low B is 30.87 Hz, which means one cycle takes about 0.032 seconds. If the converter is perfect, and takes only a half cycle to identify the note, you're still talking about 0.016 seconds. Which doesn't sound like a lot, unless you write it as 16 msec - a substantial delay, even before you factor in the time it takes all the equipment to respond...

Any technology that depends on reading the frequency of the string will inherently have that problem. The only way around it I can think of is to use a switch/contact type of setup, e.g., where the system reads your finger position on the fret board.

Enjoy!

Grant

[southportJim]

I think the problem is still high latency. Not so bad for gtr to MIDI, but the lower the frequency, the longer it takes the unit to figure out which note you're playing. Usually results in a really noticable delay for the lower bass notes, probably really exacerbated on a 5-string (I'm assuming you tune to low B). Low B is 30.87 Hz, which means one cycle takes about 0.032 seconds. If the converter is perfect, and takes only a half cycle to identify the note, you're still talking about 0.016 seconds. Which doesn't sound like a lot, unless you write it as 16 msec - a substantial delay, even before you factor in the time it takes all the equipment to respond...

Any technology that depends on reading the frequency of the string will inherently have that problem. The only way around it I can think of is to use a switch/contact type of setup, e.g., where the system reads your finger position on the fret board.

Enjoy!

Grant

Grant,

Thanks. What you say pretty much confirms what I have been reading on the web.

I use a 5-string setup with high-C instead of low-B, so that will help a little. I'm still researching the units that were mentioned here before (and trying to find an actual unit that I could play before buying...a bit of a problem out here in the boonies). Once the research is finished I'll post any questions specific to guitar/bass midi on a new thread.

thanks,
jim
;-)