Is there a big different between Stylus RMX and Reason?

[tradivoro]

I'm just wondering if you have Stylus RMX and Atmosphere, is it going to give you a remarkably different product than Reason 3?? The reason I ask is because I listen to the demos and they don't sound that remarkably different... Granted, I'm not that savvy in electronic music dance oriented stuff, but for those who use both, I"m just wondering about advantages and disadvantages, and is there a difference in the end result?... Any info appreciated, thanks...

[spectrum]

Some similarities, but some big differences too.

Although I am the creator of RMX and Atmosphere, I''ve always been a big fan and avid user/proponent of Reason/Rebirth/ReCycle as well...so hopefully it's OK for me to comment on the Propellerheads vs Spectrasonics approaches.

There are of course some major differences like that Reason is an entire app and RMX and Atmosphere are plug-ins. Many other differences come from the fact that Propellerheads started as a pure software company, and Spectrasonics as a pure sound developer. Now Props are getting more into the sound design aspect and Spectrasonics has become a real software company.

Here are some of my opinions about the relative strengths comparing the two:

• Reason is a full sequencing and modular sound design environment. Not as strong on the sequencing side as Logic/Cubase/DP/Sonar, etc...but not too bad for simpler writing. Reason has a good selection of nearly every type of device to work with, but the real strength of Reason is in the patching capability when you get around the back of the rack units. Then you can try almost anything you want and there are a lot of great tricks. Reason is very flexible and fun to use.

Sound quality-wise, Reason's basic audio engine is a bit dull sounding though. It's not as pure or fat a basic sound as RMX or Atmosphere. We spent a huge amount of time creating great sounding basic engines with UVI and SAGE. It's definitely possible to get great sounding stuff out of Reason, but it takes more processing to do this. (you can tell a huge difference in the audio engine just by playing the same REX file in Reason and in RMX.) Reason has some truly great and unique modules though, like Maelstrom and Scream, but other modules aren't quite as cool as many other instruments these days. It's main strength is on it's flexibility and integrated approach.

Oh...and it's also amazingly CPU efficient!

Biggest downside is that Rewire is more of a hassle to work with than plug-ins are (IMHO). Once you start working with great plug-in instruments like RMX, Atmosphere and other high quality instruments that integrate into hosts well, it's hard to go back to the Rewire style "non-plug-in" approach of an app running in the background of your main host.

• In comparison, I'd say that our strengths with Atmosphere and RMX are that we dedicated way more energy into doing a couple of things at a very high level, especially in terms of sound design depth. Props are just now realizing that Pro level high quality sound design is extremely important....and that's our expertise and experience. Also, in the case of RMX/Groove Control, we've taken the slicing concepts that were pioneered in ReCycle and Dr REX and gone much farther with them in terms of flexibility, ease of use and sound quality. Dr. REX has nothing like Edit Groups, Chaos Designer, the Browser or Groove Menu mode for just a couple of examples.

Also, the quality of all of our FX Units and Filters in RMX is consistently very high.

I hasten to add that I make these comparisons with the utmost respect for Propellerheads and what they have achieved with Reason. In many ways, their work is a standard by which all music software/virtual instrument companies judge their work...so they are the pioneers and deserve extreme credit for what they started! It is in fact a great honor for us to be compared to them. :-)

Although I use our stuff like Atmosphere/Stylus RMX/Trilogy more now, I would NEVER get rid of Reason. There are many things it does that are unique and super cool....especially Maelstrom! :-)

And you already know how I feel about Spectrasonics stuff! :-)

At the end of the day.....different sets of tools for different approaches of working.

spectrum

[Resident]

Agree with reason having a dull non professional sound!
I do own Trilogy and the sound quality is terrific, you can call that professional sound.

Recycle is still a very helpfull tool for me.

[Nick Batzdorf]

Once you start working with great plug-in instruments like RMX, Atmosphere and other high quality instruments that integrate into hosts well, it's hard to go back to the Rewire style "non-plug-in" approach of an app running in the background of your main host.

I agree 100%, but at the same time I wish every host program were capable of being both a ReWire slave and host. It would be really useful to be able to stream, say, Pro Tools into the Logic mixer, for example (over ethernet if I really wanted to fantasize). Or v.v. Also, you can access more memory if one program is ReWired into another on a G5, since each program can access "up to" 4GB.

I'm not quite sure why - processing power maybe? - but sometimes running programs outside a host feels a little like a house of cards, e.g. Kontakt 2 outside Logic. But ReWiring Reason or Live - which can host RMX - into Logic is perfectly solid. Go figure.

[zvenx]

I think Eric gave a very fair and objectiving opinion which I agree with 99.9999%.
I use both, but I use spectrasonics stuff much more, for quality of sounds and simplicity in use (both in design and vsti vs. rewire)

rsp

[ArsNova]

I use Reason and I'm thinking of getting Stylus. I don't find the Reason engine unpro sounding but just very naked sounding and in need of plugin help. The effects have become almost useless except for the Scream unit.

Reason is very easy to use but I'm having a hard time with it with loops and meter changes.

With all respects to Eric I love what I've heard of Stylus and atmoshpere and would use atomosphere I think for synth work on drama movies and such. Stylus works well with high end jazzy type sounds like John Powell uses. But for my needs I use electronic stuff mostly for urban sounds and I find that Spect's stuff is a bit too rich in sound. This just judging from the demos.

For that lo-fi urban sound that's popular in contemporary movies and TV I'd lean towards Reason. I know it's a favorite of many TV composers.

But like I said, I'm leaning towards Specs stuff these days. But I'm a little afraid as I think it blends too well with the orchestral stuff.

Ars

[spectrum]

That's hilarious! :-)

When we came out with the original Stylus Vinyl Groove module, some comments were that the library was way too dirty, lofi and urban....and now it's apparently too clean! LOL! :-)

Just for the record, all of the original vinyl stuff from Classic is in RMX and there are literally thousands of urban oriented elements. The new Urban Kits we just added to 1.5 in particular are pretty cool and quite rough sounding.

It's a very versatile instrument and you can get it to sound how ever you want...I wouldn't worry at all about it being "too rich". :-)

The FX have many great presets for getting serious grunge and funk happening!

Check out RMX 1.5 fully before rendering any judgement like that....it's deep on a lot of levels.

[ArsNova]

Giving it some serious thought. Thanks.


Hey how does Stylus do with meter changes?

Ars

[Andrew Aversa]

RMX definitely has some nice urban sounds. I get the most out of it by taking parts from that and combining it with my own collection of tens of thousands of various acoustic and electronic samples, then processing them both in different ways. For my latest album, what I'd often do is take a groove I liked from RMX, add some chaos, slice it up a bit, and then reinforce it with my own samples and grooves. I'd also regularly use the groove elements feature to inject some 'life' into my sequences, through shaker/conga/hihat (etc) patterns. RMX is definitely a versatile tool for any kind of music you're doing.

With Reason 3, you do have a pretty wide variety of sounds, but its main focus isn't percussion. It doesn't really have a main focus - it's a soft studio, so you can sort of go where you want with it. To me it's sort of like comparing apples to oranges.. I love 'em both (though to be honest I'm not a HUGE fan of Reason's percussive library, and find myself using RMX more).

[A_Sapp]

I feel the same way as Nova. I like trip-hop, drum n' bass kind of stuff. I notice that a lot of the rhythmic elements in that kind of music is very... dirty, sometimes off-center, raw, lo-fi, URBAN, ect. RMX is generally the complete opposite (which I also like!) - very processed, super-tight.

As much as I love (I'm using *love* here) RMX, I'd like to see some stuff in that genre. Just personally more into that lo-fi..ish sound. :o

[Looper]

I feel the same way as Nova. I like trip-hop, drum n' bass kind of stuff. I notice that a lot of the rhythmic elements in that kind of music is very... dirty, sometimes off-center, raw, lo-fi, URBAN, ect. RMX is generally the complete opposite (which I also like!) - very processed, super-tight.

As much as I love (I'm using *love* here) RMX, I'd like to see some stuff in that genre. Just personally more into that lo-fi..ish sound. :o

Hey Aaron,

A lot of us are amazed by your orchestral stuff, I for one, would love to hear this "other side" of you. Please post some stuff you've done with RMX etc.

[spectrum]

I feel the same way as Nova. I like trip-hop, drum n' bass kind of stuff. I notice that a lot of the rhythmic elements in that kind of music is very... dirty, sometimes off-center, raw, lo-fi, URBAN, ect. RMX is generally the complete opposite (which I also like!) - very processed, super-tight.

As much as I love (I'm using *love* here) RMX, I'd like to see some stuff in that genre. Just personally more into that lo-fi..ish sound. :o

Aaron....did you listen to all the new Trip-Hop and Aggressive Multis in 1.5?

Are you using the Rack presets like "Funkerator", "Retroizer" or "AM Radio" while you browse?

(Watch the "Edit Templates" video tutorial to see how to do this)

That will basically turn everything you listen to from the RMX browser instantly into that vibe. :-)

Seriously, you need to check out ALL the new 1.5 genre-based Multis, Sound Directories and Example Groove Menus. There's so much there that I'm sure you are missing!

I have to believe that your comment could ONLY be made by someone who hasn't fully checked out everything that's in 1.5....because there is a TON of new stuff that really show the possibilities...in ANY kind of electronic genre.

I won't at all buy the comment that "RMX isn't really raw/lo-fi"....at least not until you've checked out all 750 of the new patches and all the new genre-based menus.

We did all of that huge amount of patch design work in 1.5 to open people's eyes to all that RMX is capable of and I think it shows off the versatility of only using the core library really well.

Check 'em out! :-)

[ArsNova]

Is there an RMX demo version to fool around with? That would be enlightening.


Ars

[spectrum]

Nope...too big.

But you can go to a dealer that has it setup and also check out all the videos on the site:

http://trio.harmony-central.com/ramgen/117AES/Spectrasonics-Stylus-RMX.rm

http://www.spectrasonics.net/news/Stylus-RMX-1_5_Tour.html

http://www.spectrasonics.net/instruments/mov/Stylus-RMX-Overview.html

[tradivoro]

Wow, I didn't know my seemingly innocuous question was going to generate so much feedback.... :) Ok, so what I'm getting out of all of this (not knowing much about either product) is that the spectrasonics stuff, works as a plug in, but will generate beats and grooves (rmx) and atmosphere will work as a plug in synth.... That Reason will work as a plug in if you use rewire, but it seems to have a dirtier sound which is better for some urban types of music... Me, I'm just looking at it for something that will simply generate beats, electronic or more "organic", to use behind a more synthy background music that needs those types of urban or pop elements... that will probably be heard through a tv speaker...

Thanks Eric for chiming in with detailed description, I will check out the videos and such on your site, much appreciated, and everyone else, thanks for sharing your experiences with these products...

[A_Sapp]

Aaron....did you listen to all the new Trip-Hop and Aggressive Multis in 1.5?

Are you using the Rack presets like "Funkerator", "Retroizer" or "AM Radio" while you browse?


Huh! That's weird... I don't see those presets. I upgraded only once - from the original version TO 1.5 (with the new buzz feature). Did I miss something? :o

[Nick Batzdorf]

That Reason will work as a plug in if you use rewire, but it seems to have a dirtier sound which is better for some urban types of music...

I don't know that I'd agree with that second statement. Reason is an all-in-one self-contained MIDI studio with racks of synths, samplers, and fx. RMX is a groove module that lets you randomize, rearrange, process, etc. each slice independently.

[ArsNova]

IRMX is a groove module that lets you randomize, rearrange, process, etc. each slice independently.

You can process each slice independently:eek:

[Hans Scheffler]

sure.
simply define an edit group for that slice and tweak away.
easy as 1,2,3......

best
Hans

[spectrum]

Huh! That's weird... I don't see those presets. I upgraded only once - from the original version TO 1.5 (with the new buzz feature). Did I miss something? :o

Did you watch the 1.5 Tour Video?

Did you run all four updaters correctly?

You should see everything that's in the video on your version.

[esencia]

Today... I've decided to buy new Stylus RMX ! :D And I'm VERY happy with this.

I'm a Reason user too so I own several Refill libraries that include REX files.. So I'm wondering if it could be possible to import those files into RMX. I've read that RMX only will import rex2 files :S
Is there any method to import those files?
Thanks a lot for your help.

[zvenx]

u don't want to know the way......


you have to render the loop in reason...... chopped it up again in recycle and import into rmx.

rsp

[esencia]

oh my god!!!!!
I own hundreds of REX samples!!!!
it's not possible to make a global convertion?

[zvenx]

not to my knowledge........refills are proprietary and only propellerhead has the software I would imagine to do a global extract.......good luck with getting them to give you that software :-)

rsp

[spectrum]

oh my god!!!!!
I own hundreds of REX samples!!!!
it's not possible to make a global convertion?

Yes, REX files can be batch converted into RMX using the 1.5 SAGE Converter.

[zvenx]

eric I don't think that was his real question, he wondered about his rex2 refills into rmx.
rsp

[esencia]

Yup.. I'm talking about all rex files stored into a Refill file.. Is it possible to extract them or to convert them into RMX?

[zvenx]

:-)
on yahoo there is a spectrasonics group.........search it for a recent answer.......or search google for refill unpacker or refill viewer.
rsp

[esencia]

Thanks!! I've found an untility for do that.. :)

My problem now is that I'm unable to import rex to stylus correctly.
I use SAGE 1.5 tool and using the "manual selection method" after clicking on IMPORT REX, I select a limit of 61 rex files and then I set a name for the library.. after that the utility seems to convert something.. but When I come back to stylus I realize that It only has converted the same rex file 61 times!!! :o
What's the problem? Other times , and using DRAG&DROP method it convert them right.

I'm using Stylus under Logic Pro 7.1.1 and with Tiger.
Thanks a lot for your help

[zvenx]

hi, there is a bug in sage converter 1.5 doing it that way.

here is how you do it..

put a maximum of 61 loops in a folder, name that folder what you want the suite to be named....... you can have several such suite/folders in an even higher folder than you name.
then use drag and drop of hte folders onto the opened sage converter window... the manual spells it out.

rsp

[esencia]

hi, there is a bug in sage converter 1.5 doing it that way.

here is how you do it..

put a maximum of 61 loops in a folder, name that folder what you want the suite to be named....... you can have several such suite/folders in an even higher folder than you name.
then use drag and drop of hte folders onto the opened sage converter window... the manual spells it out.

rsp

Thanks a lot zvenx! ;)
I hope that it could be fixed soon. And also to fix the 61 files limitation.. ;)

[zvenx]

to be honest, I think drag and drop works so much better and easier than the other way..... the only reason why I would want the other way fixed, is because well I would prefer a bug free program as possible, but there is no reason I coudl think of why someone wouldn't use drag/drop.
it is quicker, more convenient, more automated etc.

the 61 loops per suite is not a bug but a design.....
in groove menu mode it loads all the loops for any suite in that mode into RAM..... until computers can fully access GB's upon GB's of RAM, changing that limit would create far more problems than I think are worth...
61 I assume was choosen since most keyboard controllers are 61 or less keys.......

rsp

[spectrum]

Couldn't have said it better myself Richard.... :-)

We'll fix the bug in the current Import dialog in the next version of the SAGE Converter, but it really is a "non-issue", because we don't even recommend using that older method anymore....it's much better to use the Drag and Drop method.

The reason the bug didn't show up in our beta testing process is that no one uses that old method anymore, since Drag and Drop rendered it obsolete.

[esencia]

Does new RMX 1.5 version have new library sounds? I've read this:
"new factory patch library, including 500 new Multi Grooves and 250 new Kits created by the acclaimed Spectrasonics sound design team, which take advantage of all the new features and effects that have been added since the original release of Stylus RMX. The complete patch library is now also organized by mood and genre. The expanded Groove Elements sound directory adds new “Tonal Elements” and “4x4 Kicks” suites geared for European dance club styles. The Core Library update also includes new Example Groove Menus in various genres – such as Drum ‘n Bass, Electronica, Urban, Percussion, Film Action/Suspense/Chase, etc."

But the download file looks quite small for holding several samples so , may be is just an adjusment of the library patch?
thanks for your answer ;)

[zvenx]

Hmmmm I think they are new sounds in the kit mode. I dont think they are more loops however, just better organisation of the loops and more multis that use those existing loops.
but I think in Kit mode they are more sounds.

rsp

[spectrum]

Yes...we are doing much more with the engine and the architecture of the SAGE technology to create the new sounds in this 1.5 update. Samples aren't the only way to make cool new sounds after all... :-)

The few new samples are in the new Kicks 4x4 category in Groove Elements.

There's an amazing array of possible ways to manipulate the thousands of sounds in the Core Library...most people have no idea all of what's even in there! :-)

spectrum

[esencia]

Thanks spectrum!!! It's nice to see how close you are to your RMX users giving us support.
hummm... if all developers were like you everything should be easier and better :D