Getting to sound "real" like the demos

[Mikel33]

Hey guys.. new to the forums here. I use Sibelius to write and playback my songs with Garritan as my samples. The problem is that it doesn't sound as real as the demos I hear at this website.. any tips on that?

[L0W]

Hey guys.. new to the forums here. I use Sibelius to write and playback my songs with Garritan as my samples. The problem is that it doesn't sound as real as the demos I hear at this website.. any tips on that?
I'm no expert but here's a starting set of quick tips most of which are nothing more than common sense:
1) make sure you are using plenty of mod wheel on every instrument and use it appropriately for the piece/phrase
2) learn to use the other expression controls as appropriate for each instrument - timbre, pitch, vibrato, etc to add realistic nuances particularly, but not exclusively, to solo instruments
3) try to make each instruments part realistic for that instrument - flutes can't sustain indefinitely, harpsichords can't do rips, pianists only have 8 fingers (and two thumbs) etc.
4) definitely score strings as 4-5 (or more) monophonic parts rather than a block chord played with a generic string patch
5) ditto with brass 'chords'
6) don't be afraid to eq individual instruments to get them to fit together better than GPO out of the box
7) use a decent reverb and plenty of it (if you a/b real orchestral recording with your own, you will always be amazed at how wet the real one is)
8) use different reverbs/different amounts for different instruments - eg more for the backline (percussion, harp, horns, trumpets, tubas, trombones) to more closely resemble the concert hall effect
9) read the tutorials on each instrument on Gary's website and implement all the tips
10) spend time working on sets of rapidly repeating notes to get rid of the machine gun effect
11) download midi files of classic works, play them through GPO, and see if these sound realistic to you - if yes, then look again at tips 1-10 - it must be your scoring rather than GPO that is unrealistic!

Good luck.

[DPDAN]

Welcome to the forum Mike, this is a wondeful place to be.
I would highly recommend that you purchase some type of Digital Audio Workstation (DAW). This will allow you to get deeper into the sound of your GPO notation project, and easily correct issues that are prohibiting it from sounding the way you want. Notation software is getting much better these days, but in my opinion, notation still does not come close to what can be acheived with a good DAW and some tender loving care with regard to editing midi notes and audio mixing.


dpDan

[Mikel33]

Low, Well I know it is me and not Garritan.. that is why I am here for help. Thanks for the tips. I didn't know you can do these with SIB: "timbre, vibrato, etc"...


DPDan, can you use a DAW with Garritan and Sibelius at the same time? If not (or not effectively), how do most people input their notes with a DAW.. if through keyboard, I hardly play well enough to play the parts I write.

Sorry I am such a newb with this.. I've always notated the music and played it back through my keyboard!

[Cobalt Katze]

What I do (or plan to do, once SONAR arrives) is create/compose the piece in Sibelius, then save it as a midi file. I'll import it into the DAW and re-assign the instruments, create doublings+ if I need to by duplicating tracks, and then begin to tweak everything until it sounds right. So yes it is possible to do, but you'll be doing the composing separately and then "mixing" it :)

[Mikel33]

What I do (or plan to do, once SONAR arrives) is create/compose the piece in Sibelius, then save it as a midi file. I'll import it into the DAW and re-assign the instruments, create doublings+ if I need to by duplicating tracks, and then begin to tweak everything until it sounds right. So yes it is possible to do, but you'll be doing the composing separately and then "mixing" it :)

We'll.. whatever it takes I guess. Is Sonar like Digital Performer or Pro-Tools? (I know nothing about either).. And which program is the most user friendly that I should start learning to get the "sound" I'm looking for? I know there are a lot of them.

[DPDAN]

Hi Mike, Cobalt is right on!

He chooses to write and arrange his music with notation and then save that midi file and import it into his Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) In his case.... Sonar. There are many very good DAW software programs available. Some are only useable on a PC, some on a Mac, while others both. I use Digital Performer and love it to death. Stay away from ProTools LE, and even if you can afford their $30,000-$40,000 professional system, Digital Peformer is still leaps and bounds better for midi, and many PT users use DP as a "front end".

Sonar for PC appears to be the biggest bang for the buck.
I am biased because I was set up with DP first, and it is mainly what I know, so naturally I am going to be opinionated towards it :)

I play my parts into DP through a Yamaha KX-88 keyboard controller.

dpDan

[Mikel33]

That sounds good.. If DP is available for PC, then it will probably be a decision between that and Sonar. If not, then I think I'll get Sonar =)

[DPDAN]

That sounds good.. If DP is available for PC, then it will probably be a decision between that and Sonar. If not, then I think I'll get Sonar =)DP is Mac only :)

[Mikel33]

Are Sonar and DP pretty much the same?... is one easier to learn than the other?

As far as Sonar is concerned, there is a studio version and a professional version.. Can I get everything I need with the Studio (cheaper) version?

DPDan, where can I hear some of your demos?

[danpowers]

As far as Sonar is concerned, I'd recommend starting with the cheaper version (Home Studio, I think it's called). You may find that it's sufficient for your needs. If you want to upgrade to the full Sonar later, there will be upgrade pricing available.

[Mikel33]

As far as Sonar is concerned, I'd recommend starting with the cheaper version (Home Studio, I think it's called). You may find that it's sufficient for your needs. If you want to upgrade to the full Sonar later, there will be upgrade pricing available.

I have Cakewalk Home Studio 2004.. It's not Sonar though.. the three versions of Sonar are: Home Studio (cheapest), Studio Edition (cheaper) and Producer Edition. Because I own Home Studio, I can get the Studio edition for $199 or something like that. But you think the Studio Edition will be sufficient?

What is the difference between Home Studio and Sonar Homestudio

[GrahamKeitch]

Mike, there is some really good advice coming out in this thread - so thanks for getting this discussion underway. I'm considering going for SONAR myself but not because of limitations with Finale (in my case). Admittedly, it does take a lot of tweaking to get the performances sounding right with notation software alone - but excellent results can be achieved.

I'm considering SONAR on account of Prestine Space; the ambience bit of it. I recently downloaded a cheap (£19) 12 channel EQ and transformed the realism of my recordings by simply lifting the bass and top ends. By comparison, my earlier GPO WAV files sound like they are playing back over a cheap plastic radio! This has got me much closer to the fuller, expansive sounds being posted on the demo site.

The equaliser might be correcting weaknesses with my Audigy ZS soundcard but I suspect it's more to do with the fact that a violin section will sound different in a small, padded room than a vast concert hall. I think you do need to adjust the equalisation and expand the stereo effect (which I haven't done yet) if you're looking for that 'rich' sound.

Graham

[Skysaw]

I'm a huge proponent of Sonar Producer Edition. If you work on a PC, do yourself a favor, save up your pennies, and just buy it. It's an extremely deep program, and there are still many features I haven't explored yet. To get a feel for some of the new features, take a look at some of the demo videos they posted here: http://cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/videos.asp

As to the original subject of this thread, there was recently similar discussion you may want to see in this thread: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38828

[GrahamKeitch]

[QUOTE=Skysaw]I'm a huge proponent of Sonar Producer Edition. If you work on a PC, do yourself a favor, save up your pennies, and just buy it. It's an extremely deep program, and there are still many features I haven't explored yet. QUOTE]

Thanks Jamie, I may just do that. Graham.

[DPDAN]

DPDan, where can I hear some of your demos?

I thought nobody would ever ask :D ! At your service :)

Most of these pieces were done by ear with no score, since I have virtually no ability to sight read music, I just hear it. :)
Thanks for listening, and thanks so much to Gary Garritan for providing the tools and technology to finally allow this music to get out of me. :)

Each and every note of these pieces is 100% GPO created with MOTU Digital Performer (http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/body.html/en)except Adagio for Strings which is Garritan Orchestral Strings (GOS)

Danny Boy (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Danny%20Boy.MP3) By ear from a St. Louis Symphony CD

Send In The Clowns (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Send%20In%20The%20Clowns.MP3) WooHoo my own arrangement!

Alabaster Box (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Alabaster%20Box%20no%20appl.MP3) By ear from the original sing along accompaniment CD track

Ave Maria (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/AveMariaDanKury.mp3)My own arrangement

Jurassic Park Theme (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Jurassic%20Park%20mix%203.MP3) By ear from listening to the original movie soundtrack

I Heard The Bells On Christmas Day (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/I%20Heard%20The%20Bells.MP3) Orchestrated by me, but lovingly arranged for an acappella vocal CD by our own wonderful David Maddox, thank you David :)

Come, Oh Come Emmanuel (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Come,%20Oh%20Come%20Emmanuel.MP3) My own arrangement from my big fat head :)

O Holy Night (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Oh%20Holy%20Night.MP3) Again my own arrangement from within ;)

The First Noel (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/The%20First%20Noel.MP3) Originally arranged for David Foster's Christmas CD (not by me)but partially arranged by me

PDQ Bach (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/PDQ.MP3) Just for fun copied by ear from a PDQ Bach CD

Adagio For Strings (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/AdagioForStringsDanKury.MP3) Copied by ear from a St. Louis Symphony CD

Dvorak's New World Symphony (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/DvorakNewWorldSymphonybyDanKury.MP3) I had help from my Mom reading the score for this one. Also check out the comparison link on Gary Garritan's website (http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Dvorakcomparison-narration.mp3)

[beach]

Dear Mikel,
follow what the people are saying here...
In my humble opinion I use finale and play the score I write with GPO patches loaded in Kontakt full. Usually then I apply some 'verb of my soundcard (creative).
Nothing more.
Follow the advises here and surely you will have great sound for your demo!!!


Best to you,
Roberto

[Mikel33]

Those are some really nice arrangements DPDan... I especially like the Jurassic Park one, being the big fan of JW I am. Well done =)

What is with the "out of the box" volume levels for each instrument on the GPO kontakt player.. I set everything to equal on the actual midi, but many instruemts are too low and I need to raise the decibals in kontakt.. Does everyone have to do this?

[Mikel33]

I got Sonar PE, now all I need is a tutorial to show me what I need to know to adjust the things mentioned... any ideas?

BTW, thanks all for all the advice you've given, it's really appreciated!

[Mikel33]

scratch that... just found the one on the GPO site!.. duh!

[Mikel33]

ok.. so far, here is what I have done (Sonar):

1. Saved my song as a MIDI from Sibelius
2. Loaed it into Sonar, and loaded the GPO sounds into it.

Now here is where I run into a little frustration. The instruments seem to "lag".. the strings don't seem exactly on beat. It's like they are just coming in late. In piano roll view, they are correct. I think it might be my memory (1 gig)??

My next step after solving the problem above is to figure out the mod wheel. Apparently it is extremely important. What advice can you guys offer with this?

I am also confused with velocity (or velocity trim??) vs volume when dealing with dynamics.. I have the option to adjust both for each instrument. When would I adjust the volume and when would I adjust velocity

Does anyone here have a messaging program so I can ask a few questions? Even a voice program like ventrilo would work. Sorry I am such a newb

[Journeyman]

pianists only have 8 fingers (and two thumbs)
This has to be the strangest thing I've read in a long time. Is there anyone out there who doesn't consider their thumbs to be fingers?? http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[DPDAN]

Hi Mike, I set the volume of almost all the GPO instruments considerably higher than the default setting. Even with significant mod wheel data in the midi track, the levels in the GPO Kontakt player are just way too low.

I never use volume or pan or any of that stuff in the midi track. I make all the adjustments to the sound during mixing in Digital Performer after I have rendered to the sounds to audio tracks.

That's just my way of doing things, but there are many diifferent ways to accomplish the same thing in a DAW environment.

Thank you for listening :)

Dan

[Skysaw]

My next step after solving the problem above is to figure out the mod wheel. Apparently it is extremely important. What advice can you guys offer with this?
There are numerous tech posts (mostly by Tom) that explains this. The short and easy way is this:

1. If the real instrument can make a crescendo on a single note (winds, strings), the mod wheel is used for dynamics. 0=ppp; 128=fff. For these instruments, the velocity determines the attack type. 0=light tonguing/bowing; 128=hard tonguing/bowing.

2. If a player can't make a crescendo (piano, harp, percussion, et al), the mod wheel is not used, and the MIDI velocity determines the dynamic level.

As to the eight thumb comment, I've always heard it that way as well (8+2). In related news, a chess army does *not* consist of sixteen pieces. It contains eight pieces and eight pawns.

[Haydn]

Mike,

I would not raise the volumes of the instruments for GPO when using Sonar. I've found that a full orchestra playing fortissimo usually hits just about 0 db in Sonar's master output. Usually I have to pull back the audio tracks about 1-4 db so the master doesn't go above 0 db in really dense sections. You can boost these same audio tracks if doing chamber size pieces.

Sonar has options to shift tracks which will help with the strings lagging. You can either use the Time option or use the Nudge feature. I normally play ahead of the beat with lower velocity legato strings and play closer to the beat as the velocities get higher. This is because the short bow layered samples come in more at higher velocities. The short bow samples are much more on the beat.

Another thing to make demos sound more 'real' is to vary the tempo track. Real orchestras never play in strict time and constantly speed up and slow down.

Jim