Any realistic saxaphones library to recommend?

[nexuscreative]

Hi,

I own QLBrass and found certain instruments are still lacking depth. I'm particularly looking for some great sax solos.

I've checked out VLS's Saxaphones (horizon series) demo mp3 and also Garritan's Jazz Big Band and they all seemed to be very good. For Saxlab it still sounds fake at certain points so I was wondering what's your view on this?

Budget is not really a problem, can afford around $350, so any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!


Peter

[vegas]

theres also chris Heins horn Library

http://www.chrishein.net/

just listened to VSL saxes...get em!;)

[ArsNova]

Garritan has some really good sounding natural saxes. Chris Hein has a library coming out, but it at times sounds unnatural. I've seen him talking on other forums and he seems to be into the idea of extending the capabilities of the natural instruments by sampling and synthetic manipulation. The result is an amazingly flexible instrument, but also a tad too unrealistic. But we shall see.

I fooled around with Liquid Sax and it is pretty amazing. At first I was turned off by the phrase nature of the library, but it's so flexible that within no time you can have a really live sounding original tune. Every pitch and every note length is changable and you can completely rework the phrases into something unique and original without much difficulty.

Ars

[Lunatique]

There's also Yellow Tools' Candy, and Arturia's Brass.

[Nigel W]

Candy is good, but very "clean", which in some contexts means "less realistic". It's pretty good in an arrangement though. I think the only one which would stand up to exposure in a solo context would be Liquid Saxaphone, which of course means you're restricted to whatever stylistic areas come with it. It's excellent, but it ain't rock&roll. So take your pick.

Sax & Guitar are two areas where it's so much beter to get a player in if you have a project which deserves it.

Nigel

[sporter]

theres also chris Heins horn Library

http://www.chrishein.net/

just listened to VSL saxes...get em!;)


Man, the chris Hein is seriously GOOD!

[dpasdernick]

Man, the chris Hein is seriously GOOD!

Ditto! Very Impressive!

[Jeff4h]

if you have a wind controller listen to the patchmen music demos, it is phsical modeling, no samples Jeff

[nexuscreative]

Thank you so much guys, really appreciated it.

Didn't know about Chris Hein and all the while I was ignoring Liquid Sax for the same reasons some of you felt.

Now will look at each recommendations and decide!

Thanks again!

:)


Peter

[JT3_Jon]

I know this is gonna sound strange, but I'm looking for a full "classical" saxophone section. (I warned you)

Does one exist? Thus far most are either geared for jazz (which has a VERY distinct color which I fear will not blend with an orchestra) or they are lacking instruments (see VSL: only tenor and sop). I guess candy comes the closest, but doesnt sound as real as I would have hoped.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[dpasdernick]

Man that trombone solo video on the Chris hein site has got me geeked. Anyone know where I can buy a ribbon controller that will work with my Roland XP80?

Darren

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I have never heard a saxophone library which was even remotely close to sounding like a solo sax player.

Hire a player, unless you want your music to suck.

You can hide sax samples in thick ensemble, and they'll marginally suffice.

[sirbellog]

I have never heard a saxophone library which was even remotely close to sounding like a solo sax player.

Hire a player, unless you want your music to suck.


Come on,
It could be said truly for so many real instruments, that I can really see no point to tell such things on a forum dedicated to sample libraries......
--
Chris Hein's lib (or even VSL Sax, or even JABB, or whatever....) will never have the ambition to REPLACE real horn players....
but they may be VERY handy to work with to work out ideas, sketch pieces, untill one has the opportunity to get real players.
And I do think Chris made quite a great job emulating horns. I will buy it with no hesitation, and if my music "sucks", it will be more my fault, than his...
And one more thing : I heard so many splendid songs made with cheap samples, that I can only be sure of this : skilled people can fool anyone if they just are musical, and know how to use the limitations of their tools to their own benefit.
Conversely, I heard really terrible songs made with high end libs, even of "easy-to-emulate" instruments.
---
People looking so hard for the "real" sound should not come here, they can only find frustration !
My opinion anyway.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

It could be said for so many real instruments, that I can really see no point to say such things on a forum dedicated to sample libraries......
--
Chris Hein's lib (or even VSL Sax, or even JABB, or whatever....) will never have the ambition to REPLACE real horn players....
but they may be VERY handy to work with to work out ideas, sketch pieces, untill one has the opportunity to get real players.
And I do think Chris made quite a great job emulating horns. I will buy it with no hesitation, and if my music "sucks", it will be more my fault, than his...
People looking so hard for the "real" sound should not come here, they can only find frustration !
My opinion anyway.

Well, I thought this forum was dedicated to truth. At least I am dedicated to the truth. Many instruments can be successfully sampled and played back with some faithfulness.

Saxophone is not one of those.

I have yet to hear a single demo of a saxophone solo made with samples that sounded anything like a saxophone player. So, I stand by my advice, but I will qualify it specifically. Saxophone libraries are not a good investment if one wishes to produce music featuring solo saxophone. They can be a decent investment for non-production mockups, and in some cases, they can be a good investment for "hiding" in ensemble thick enough to cover up their overwhelming shortcomings.

But as a solo instrument, no.

[mal7]

I have never heard a saxophone library which was even remotely close to sounding like a solo sax player.

Hire a player, unless you want your music to suck.

You can hide sax samples in thick ensemble, and they'll marginally suffice.

Couldn't agree more Bruce...it is the one instrument I cannot get close to ....maybe one day...

[dpasdernick]

Sax is definitely a hard nut to crack. But since this is a "sample libraries" forum we could at least provide some insight into which libraries are the best. A lot of developers have put a lot of resources into these libraries and some of them are pretty good. Not a "fool the pros" good but they're making head way. I'm sure that the original dude who posted this question was looking for some insight into the best libraries available today. Not "there aren't any, don't even try it response" Hiring a real sax player might not be an option. Re-writing the composition without sax might not be an option either.

Any purist might argue for us to "hire a real synphony" because as close as these orchestral guys are getting it still ain't the real thing. Same with guitars, bass and drums. And yes some of these sounds are easier to emulate than a sax but if we're talking apples to apples here...

The Chris Hein stuff sounds great to me!

My two cents,

Darren

[artsoundz]

The Yamaha Vl70m does a good job especially w/ the patchman chip update. To be fair, it also has trumpets and other sounds for lead sounds and while the saxes sound great and expressiveness is there, I completely agree that saxes are a no-no in sampling. Oddly, soprano saxes seem to translate the best. I often use a soprano sax sample with great success but rarely tenor or alto.
One thing though- I do a lot of industrials, specialized tv and radio etc and rarely use sax. Maybe it's me but it just has always sounded inapropriate for 99% of my stuff. But, as it's been said, live music is best. It's too easy to get a great sax player. I might give liquid sax a try for fun. But check out the Vl70m and patchman. Maybe not 100% but the expressivenes is there therfore one can make great music.

[artsoundz]

Oh yeah- Baritone saxes can fool in a funk scenario.Roland stuff comes to mind.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Well, you guys are inadvertently just confirming what I said.

The original poster asked this question: "Any realistic saxaphones library to recommend?"

The answer: An unqualified no. None.

Can you fake it in a setting where there's lots of cover? Yes.

Is sampled sax suitable for presenting as a solo sax, which was the elaboration in the first post of the original question? No. Absolutely not.

I don't buy this "It's a sample forum" logic. Music is music. Things work or they don't. No one benefits by pussyfooting around the elephant in the living room. Sampled saxes don't sound like a sax soloist, under any circumstances. They just don't.

I do agree that sampled soprano is the closest anyone has come. Sop has more resistance at the reed, so it has less timbral variability. Tenor has HUGE timbral variability within every dynamic level.

The comment about Bari samples being useful in funk is somewhat true, but only as a rhythmic part. If you were to attempt a solo part--what the original poster asked about--nope. Can you imagine trying to pull off five minutes of Pepper Adams or Gerry Mulligan with a bari sample? Not likely.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I also agree that the VL/Yamaha option is at least expressive, if not timbrally equivalent to an actual sax.

What I don't understand is this: Why on earth would someone use samples that sound totally mediocre to fake a line in electronic music, when one could just abandon the imitative attempt and do something really cool with a synth? That would be artistically honest, more expressive, and would totally bypass the horrendous results of trying to get something like a solo sax sound from samples--an impossibility.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Sorry. I realize my opinions and standards are rigid on this issue, but I think it's a position that needs to be stated. Some things do not take kindly to sampling, and the musical results are almost always horrible.


Might as well put that on the table for consideration, instead of just saying, "Well, you could try Library X. It's only slightly horrible."

[nexuscreative]

Hi Bruce,

I do agree with what you said, but the reason why I asked for a better library than what I have right now is because, first, in my country, coming out with sketches and mock ups for clients require a certain degree of realism. I don't know how to put it, I have clients who "seemed" to know so well about music that can distinguish between a fake sax line and a real one, but actually, it is mostly the "flat", non-legato, old synth patches they recognize.

Throw in some trills, flutters and all sorts of techniques in, they can't distinguish it and they won't complain. I should be happy with my QLbrass as I have plenty to work on, but it's always the need to come up with better and newer things that drove me to find out more of other sax libraries out there.

So it's the same reason you mentioned - nothing can come close to a real sax player. Reason is because saxaphones are very expressive. I need plenty of different sounds and articulations as possible in order to at least "emulate" certain playing styles to propose ideas to my clients. Otherwise they will probably reject it.

I can't basically do it with my old synths with so little time (I had worse deadlines such as a 30-seconder in 4 hours). Once clients' liked it, they have a choice - make it better by hiring a real player, or stick with what I have. It's their choice. It's the same that applies to all my other instruments, let it be guitar vs. virtual guitarist or drums vs loops. Most of the time however, they just stick to what I have. Yes, it could be mediocre, but that's my job and it's their taste! :o

That is, based on my standpoint as a commercial composer.

But if I'm doing something personally, all for myself, and by myself, I would have the strictest standards and make sure nothing sounds mediocre, especially if I use acoustic instruments as solo. I would hire my friends in fact!

With so many acoustic instruments are made available for keyboard players, it has opened up a very wide pallete for us to work on and to experiement, especially with so little budget. And this, leads to more appreciation - I mean 5 years ago I would not even think of using some solo instruments for my piece. And now that I have worked on it, I know it can be great and would get real players to do it when I'm ready to release my own album.

It opened my eyes for one thing, all the details and professionalism you all have exhibited here have made me learned a lot of things.

Thanks! :)


Peter

[Nick Batzdorf]

Actually, some of Craig Sharmat's demos of the VSL sax library were very realistic.

[Hardy Heern]

Sorry. I realize my opinions and standards are rigid on this issue, but I think it's a position that needs to be stated. Some things do not take kindly to sampling, and the musical results are almost always horrible.

Might as well put that on the table for consideration, instead of just saying, "Well, you could try Library X. It's only slightly horrible."


Bruce, you're opinion is as valuable as anyone elses.....even if you misunderstand what has been said on this subject in the past. If you re-read my earlier post on the other thread, where all this has been said before, I think you're confused between creating a professional CD for the market place and the mockup/ hobbyist side of sampling.

Your opinion may, possibly, (but see later) be correct for the former but it is definitely and obviously wrong for the latter.http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif I thought that I'd made this clear in the earlier thread. It seems that you feel threatened or something....you certainly have a 'bee in your bonnet' about it. Perhaps it is because you depend on live trumpet playing for your livelihood?

I can, actually, sympathise with this but it doesn't change the world and the way things are and are going to be. Technology has thrown millions of folk out of work and they've had to retrain....why should musicians escape this?? It's a tough old world out there.

Another thing you need to remember is that the public don't have your detailed knowledge of the saxaphone sound and are not micro listening like you obviously are. The public may well be totally satisfied with a sampled sax or trumpet after all. So I'm not sure that your posts are really helping anyone except to vent that bee.

I look forward to reading your unbiassed reviews on Sax libraries in Virtual Instruments.....

Frank

[dpasdernick]

Another thing you need to remember is that the public don't have your detailed knowledge of the saxaphone sound and are not micro listening like you obviously are. The public may well be totally satisfied with a sampled sax or trumpet after all.

Frank

The truth is the general public doesn't care whether it's sampled or not. If it sounds good to them they'll listen. Look what the Roland 808 did for music trying to sound like a drum set. (and it wasn't even close) Our sonic world is full of hybrid sounds. What if we could 100% mimic a sax? And you could play it on a controller that could not only realize every nuance but add new features as well. Like the ability to sustain a note forever, or play in ranges far below or above the natural instrument. Perhaps one day there will be a "generic" instrument that can play any sound imaginable and is easy to play.

Today it's called a DAW and we have a ton of VST's choose from. All of them not perfect, but they still sound beautiful. I bet 99% of the people on this forum have used a sample to take the place of a real musician in one of their compositions. I suppose we are witnessing a musical revolution and it's kind of cool to be a small part of that. :)

All the very best,

Darren

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Frank, I'm not biased, and I'm not misunderstanding anything. I'm merely stating fact. Any realistic saxophone library to recommend? NO. Do you want to recommend one? Knock yourself out.

Peter clarified his request for information. In that case, I think VSL does a good job of mocking up soprano, and a less good job of tenor--because tenor in and of itself has less resistance at the reed and has much more timbral fluctuation within a given dynamic range than is possible to capture with any hope of playability on the back side.

I would never use either one as a "saxophone solo" which was what the first post asked. I would not use either one if I were a hobbyist, or if I were preparing a CD for release. For finished music, they're not suitable...unless you are isolating down a part to such sparse and sample-friendly writing that you completely tailor the part to what the sample will do. And for "saxophone solo" you would be far from the idiomatic norm in doing so.

A little real saxophone, for those who seem to have forgotten what they sound like: Denny's Flashforward (http://www.brucerichardsonmusic.com/tunes/1936_intro.mp3)

Am I saying that all sampled instruments sound like crap? No. In the above example, all the other instruments are indiscernible from reality. You can sample enough personality in them, and execute it via controllers with enough effectiveness to create an illusion. There is no way in hell a sampled saxophone would have sold that cue.

Here are two cues from the same show, one a mockup with a sample, the other a final cut with player:

The Violet Hour opening title--scratch (http://www.brucerichardsonmusic.com/tunes/tickle_toe_scratch.mp3)
The Violet Hour opening title--final (http://www.brucerichardsonmusic.com/tunes/Tickle_Toe.mp3)

I am a decent enough programmer, and I know the intricacies of wind instruments in this genre. In this case, the clarinet is not horrible in the first example, but it is limp and lifeless despite my best efforts. In fact, I had to hide it under a xylophone double, in order to disguise the awkwardness in which it moved from note to note. Later when it is exposed in the solo section, that awkwardness is more exposed. It doesn't want to play the line, there is no lightness or playfulness...and I had to really tweak note lengths just to get the part to sound at all, and not to be totally stuck in the mud. That was the best I could get it.

In the second example, the entire piece comes to life...in one take, with a player.

Here again, the other instruments are working very well...they get the job done. Even the end shout--made up of sampled instruments--works. There is enough life in them. But not the sampled clarinet. You could hide it well in an ensemble. You could apply it well to certain lines. But not in a genre where inter-dynamic timbral variants are crucial. And in solo reed work, those variants ARE crucial to express the genre.

You can challenge my opinion all day. You can try to bring in my writing for VI as some kind of "red flag" that I might be biased. I'm not sure what the hell that was about. Just what the hell are you implying anyway? Would you care to clarify that?

I am one person, with a good deal of experience in this business, with one opinion...and I stand by it despite whatever challenge you'd like to throw my way. I can throw down musical examples which demonstrate what I am saying. If you have some examples of you kicking some butt with a sampled saxophone, then I suggest YOU throw down. I'm getting sick of being nagged, so put up or shut up.

I really think that what people fail to realize is just how much the "general public" DOES reject sampled instruments when they don't sound good. Most of the directors I work for are musically average in discernment. But the director of the show above was ready to kill the cue, right up to the moment I brought in the final mix with the player. He just could not understand the musical "jump" that the player would contribute--making the non-working cue work.

So, I don't even know for sure that mocking up with samples is a particularly good idea, if they don't work to the degree that the mockup impeaches otherwise good work. I had to fight like hell to keep that cue, as I said, because the director was so nonplussed with the mockup he couldn't get past it. As soon as the real clarinet was on, he loved it. But if I hadn't been tenacious, he would have cut the cue before I produced it--BASED ON A SAMPLE--and I would never have had the final session that he ultimately liked.

I need to get something else off my chest here. I'm tired of getting pounded for these nonexistent, artificial restraints on communication. For instance, the idea that this is a "sample" forum, so I shouldn't be musically honest. Or that my "professional" opinion doesn't count, because I'm not a hobbyist and I somehow don't understand that.

I don't discern a difference between hobbyist and professional music. Music is music. It works or it doesn't. And I am not recommending non-working solutions to people whether they are hobbyists or professionals.

Am I making myself clear? I'm tired of being challenged by you, Frank, in a manner that implies that I must be misunderstanding some "divide" between hobbyists, mockups, or so-called pros. I do not believe there is any divide. Music is music is music is music.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

The truth is the general public doesn't care whether it's sampled or not. If it sounds good to them they'll listen.

And if it doesn't, they wont...and that is my point.

[Hardy Heern]

Frank, I'm not biased, and I'm not misunderstanding anything. I'm merely stating fact. Any realistic saxophone library to recommend? NO. Do you want to recommend one? Knock yourself out.

Peter clarified his request for information. In that case, I think VSL does a good job of mocking up soprano, and a less good job of tenor--because tenor in and of itself has less resistance at the reed and has much more timbral fluctuation within a given dynamic range than is possible to capture with any hope of playability on the back side.

I would never use either one as a "saxophone solo" which was what the first post asked. I would not use either one if I were a hobbyist, or if I were preparing a CD for release. For finished music, they're not suitable...unless you are isolating down a part to such sparse and sample-friendly writing that you completely tailor the part to what the sample will do. And for "saxophone solo" you would be far from the idiomatic norm in doing so.

A little real saxophone, for those who seem to have forgotten what they sound like: Denny's Flashforward (http://www.brucerichardsonmusic.com/tunes/1936_intro.mp3)

Am I saying that all sampled instruments sound like crap? No. In the above example, all the other instruments are indiscernible from reality. You can sample enough personality in them, and execute it via controllers with enough effectiveness to create an illusion. There is no way in hell a sampled saxophone would have sold that cue.

Here are two cues from the same show, one a mockup with a sample, the other a final cut with player:

The Violet Hour opening title--scratch (http://www.brucerichardsonmusic.com/tunes/tickle_toe_scratch.mp3)
The Violet Hour opening title--final (http://www.brucerichardsonmusic.com/tunes/Tickle_Toe.mp3)

I am a decent enough programmer, and I know the intricacies of wind instruments in this genre. In this case, the clarinet is not horrible in the first example, but it is limp and lifeless despite my best efforts. In fact, I had to hide it under a xylophone double, in order to disguise the awkwardness in which it moved from note to note. Later when it is exposed in the solo section, that awkwardness is more exposed. It doesn't want to play the line, there is no lightness or playfulness...and I had to really tweak note lengths just to get the part to sound at all, and not to be totally stuck in the mud. That was the best I could get it.

In the second example, the entire piece comes to life...in one take, with a player.

Here again, the other instruments are working very well...they get the job done. Even the end shout--made up of sampled instruments--works. There is enough life in them. But not the sampled clarinet. You could hide it well in an ensemble. You could apply it well to certain lines. But not in a genre where inter-dynamic timbral variants are crucial. And in solo reed work, those variants ARE crucial to express the genre.

You can challenge my opinion all day. You can try to bring in my writing for VI as some kind of "red flag" that I might be biased. I'm not sure what the hell that was about. Just what the hell are you implying anyway? Would you care to clarify that?

I am one person, with a good deal of experience in this business, with one opinion...and I stand by it despite whatever challenge you'd like to throw my way. I can throw down musical examples which demonstrate what I am saying. If you have some examples of you kicking some butt with a sampled saxophone, then I suggest YOU throw down. I'm getting sick of being nagged, so put up or shut up.

I really think that what people fail to realize is just how much the "general public" DOES reject sampled instruments when they don't sound good. Most of the directors I work for are musically average in discernment. But the director of the show above was ready to kill the cue, right up to the moment I brought in the final mix with the player. He just could not understand the musical "jump" that the player would contribute--making the non-working cue work.

So, I don't even know for sure that mocking up with samples is a particularly good idea, if they don't work to the degree that the mockup impeaches otherwise good work. I had to fight like hell to keep that cue, as I said, because the director was so nonplussed with the mockup he couldn't get past it. As soon as the real clarinet was on, he loved it. But if I hadn't been tenacious, he would have cut the cue before I produced it--BASED ON A SAMPLE--and I would never have had the final session that he ultimately liked.

I need to get something else off my chest here. I'm tired of getting pounded for these nonexistent, artificial restraints on communication. For instance, the idea that this is a "sample" forum, so I shouldn't be musically honest. Or that my "professional" opinion doesn't count, because I'm not a hobbyist and I somehow don't understand that.

I don't discern a difference between hobbyist and professional music. Music is music. It works or it doesn't. And I am not recommending non-working solutions to people whether they are hobbyists or professionals.

Am I making myself clear? I'm tired of being challenged by you, Frank, in a manner that implies that I must be misunderstanding some "divide" between hobbyists, mockups, or so-called pros. I do not believe there is any divide. Music is music is music is music.

Bruce, let's just agree to be tired of each other as I'm not able to make my point any clearer. I'm certainly not going to go around the houses again on this one.

Frank

[Yossarian]

I believe the "state of the art" (or at least it has the potential to be) as far as sampled saxophone goes is Melodyne in combination with a good set of sampled phrases. I know people tend to shun phrases as they're perceived to be static and limiting, forcing you to write the music around the samples. Not so with Melodyne. With this software, phrases are anything but static - they're just raw material to be stretched, compressed, bent, twisted, rephrased and recombined in all kinds of ways.

The beauty of Melodyne is that you get to keep some of the flow and musical intent of the original performance, you're not just trying to string together a bunch of one-shot samples. The obvious downside is that it's not a playable instrument, it's more of an audio editor environment where you assemble your instrument parts rather than playing them. I'm not much of a player so for me this is not an issue but I realize others will see it differently.

I see Liquid Sax has been mentioned. It uses the Melodyne engine but AFAIK it has a couple of limitations that Melodyne doesn't have: it can only use the included set of phrases and you can't re-combine bits and pieces from different phrases (which is where the real fun starts).

To prove that you can put together pretty much any melody you like if you have a decent enough phrase library to start with I made a little example that I posted in the KvR forum. I used a few phrases from the Zero-G sample CD Saxophone Legacy containing sampled alto sax phrases played by Sonny Simmons. For demonstrative purposes I chose a melody that Sonny is unlikely to ever have played in real life: the Swedish national anthem.

Now, before y'all shoot it down I'd like to make a couple of points:

1) I'm a hobbyist. I'm also a Melodyne novice. This software is pretty deep and as with all such things it has a learning curve. I'm sure someone with more skill and experience can do a lot better.

2) I used a limited number (if memory serves 3 or 4) of phrases to make this example which means some notes had to be stretched a bit too far for their own good. Again, with a bigger set of sampled phrases, better results can be achieved.

3) The melody I chose is stylistically very far from the style of the source phrases. The ideal situation is of course that you have access to a set of phrases in a similar style to the one you want for your piece.

Here's a link to the KvR thread: www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=108307

One reaction was that it's "almost as good as YellowTools Candy" so obviously I'm not there yet but I think this technology has a lot of potential. What's needed is more focused libraries with lots of different styles and also a lot of diferent articulations and inflexions within each style.

/Yoss

[dpasdernick]

So, I don't even know for sure that mocking up with samples is a particularly good idea, if they don't work to the degree that the mockup impeaches otherwise good work. I had to fight like hell to keep that cue, as I said, because the director was so nonplussed with the mockup he couldn't get past it. As soon as the real clarinet was on, he loved it. But if I hadn't been tenacious, he would have cut the cue before I produced it--BASED ON A SAMPLE--and I would never have had the final session that he ultimately liked.


Bruce,

People mock up their ideas day in day out. Profesional film composers do it all the time. Imagine if Hans Zimmer had to go through the hoops you had to in order to convince Ridley Scott the cue was going to work. It's not practical. That 's why the sample library business is booming.

In your case using a real clarinetist was an option. In many cases it is not.

1) Did it cost a lot more to have a real clainet on the mockup?

2) What would the have ramifications had been to you if you spent the time, money, and energy to defend the cue with a real player and it was still rejected?

This is the very reason why sample libraries are so popular. Not too long ago none of us could realize a synphonic representation of our compositions. now we can. Can't play the bass? Trilogy will get you darn close.

As samples get more sophisticated, listeners will as well. There's a lot of directors out there that can't hear past the samples. And many of them do not have the respect for the time and money it takes to give them the real thing. (especially if it's a proposal and they they reject it anyway)

I use to be able to pass off a transparent white cube that represented a client's car in the 3D renderings I do. Now they ask for the specific, year, make. model, and color. We spend hours and hours at work, chaninging things that are so minute it drives us crazy.

All the very best,

Darren

PS I liked the cue!

[JerryPettit]

> I see Liquid Sax has been mentioned. It uses the Melodyne engine but AFAIK it has a couple of limitations that Melodyne doesn't have: it can only use the included set of phrases and you can't re-combine bits and pieces from different phrases (which is where the real fun starts).<

**Ok...I've just been playing with Liquid Sax the last hour or so.

You CAN "combine bits and pieces" in the sense that each phrase is modifiable by transposing (either individually or in groups) notes, and deleting notes and then stretching other notes in the phrase to fill the "hole" left by deleting. You can then map your altered phrases to the keyboard and play your solo back on the keyboard--each key plays a new phrase.

I took just one phrase and mutated it half a dozen times (by deleting notes and stretching to "fill the hole" and then transposing the new phrase--and it'll "snap to scale" when you transpose) and then mapped to half a dozen neighboring keys on the keyboard--then played the keys to get my solo, each phrase of which was then "thematically" linked...

This sounds like more work than it really is.

And it sounds great--very authentic.

Jerry

[artsoundz]

I also agree that the VL/Yamaha option is at least expressive, if not timbrally equivalent to an actual sax.

What I don't understand is this: Why on earth would someone use samples that sound totally mediocre to fake a line in electronic music, when one could just abandon the imitative attempt and do something really cool with a synth? That would be artistically honest, more expressive, and would totally bypass the horrendous results of trying to get something like a solo sax sound from samples--an impossibility.

Right on. And I think people/clients respond to the " honesty" of creating MUSIC. Otherwise it's just mediocre photography. Conversely, if you are scoring pornos, for heavens sakes use a sampled sax. No one will notice.

[artsoundz]

FROM BRUCE
I don't buy this "It's a sample forum" logic. Music is music. Things work or they don't. No one benefits by pussyfooting around the elephant in the living room. Sampled saxes don't sound like a sax soloist, under any circumstances. They just don't."


The comment about Bari samples being useful in funk is somewhat true, but only as a rhythmic part. If you were to attempt a solo part--what the original poster asked about--nope. Can you imagine trying to pull off five minutes of Pepper Adams or Gerry Mulligan with a bari sample? Not likely.[/QUOTE]


Yes, I did mean short rythmic notes. Tower of Power! But anything beyond that is a great risk.

But why on earth is Bruce being hammered a bit here?- I think the point to the original poster is not to get caught up in the sax sample thing as it truly is by far the worst of the worst to sample.It sounds just awful. There REALLY aren't any libraries out there. BITS AND PIECES maybe. I mean, what tune that uses sampled sax has EVER made it into the charts? FILMS? what? Just where is the"public" that likes samples sax? I just can't think of much.
My advice is if you like the sound of sampled sax and you consider yourself a professional composer then re-evaluate. My clients know the differance. I wouldn't use a sampled sax for ANY demo for them. Now MAYBE melodyne, but these are phrases and the process of getting from note to note on a sax is retained because it's a a recorded performance of a real sax.Impossible thus far.But in my town =great jazz players abound. Thereis(was/) a Ben Webster sax from In think Roland that was really nice but only long notes. Very limited.
One thought, however- Sampled saxes work ok for African highlife melodies. Calypso- and anything with shorter rythmic notes. Some funk lines. Solos? never ever. But process and layer some synth stuff with VL70m and patchman and you will create some very organic expressive music that will imply sax and make most everyone happy. So get that or Liquid sax but either spend tons of dough for sveral libraries that MIGHT satify for a second or find a good player. In Kuala Lumpur even!