Perfect Steinway D !!!! incredible Hamburg sound !

[Olivier]

Hi,

just hear my tweaked Akoustik Steinway D !

I play on a MP9000(Kawai)controller : (live recorded by me)

http://www.audiolivepro.com/Akoustik_semi_player_perspective.mp3

:)

Regards,

Olivier

[David Ferris]

Olivier,

The Akoustic continues to be a revelation in the softer passages---and your playing ain't bad either;-)

DavidH

[ddarwin7]

Great work Olivier,

Really nice sounding demo. Very well done and very musical. I use a Kawai controller as well (MP9500). What string library are you using along with the piano?.

[Sean Beeson]

Sounds like Synful

Sean

[Lougheed]

Very very nice piano sound and playing. Akoustik is becoming tempting!


Lawrence

[David Ferris]

Akoustik is becoming tempting!


Lawrence

Lawrence,

Olivier's original thread re an Akoustic demo contains info re problems with an untweaked Akoustic.

DavidH

[fozzy]

Sounds like Synful

Sean

That's what it sounds like to me.

But I'd like to hear just the piano without it.

[Lougheed]

Lawrence,

Olivier's original thread re an Akoustic demo contains info re problems with an untweaked Akoustic.

DavidH

I should have said, Akoustic with Oliviers programming is becoming tempting!

[Alexcremers]

I can't judge the piano with that violin on top.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

It sounds great. I'm not sure why it would be any trouble to judge the sound along with the solo part. It is exposed in many places, and the interaction is actually quite helpful. My only slight critique would be that the string solo is mic'ed in a more present fashion, so there's a bit of disparity in the engineering approach between the piano and the solo. The solo also is slightly hot compared to the piano, so the scratchiness of the bow becomes a too-focal point in the overall ensemble.

But those are extremely picky points, and overall, one would be hard pressed to find fault with the example on a musical level. And that's what we're making here...music.

[ohernie]

Several things on my mind ...

1. Personally, I don't think this mp3 is all that good sounding. Nobody has mentioned the clipped notes at the beginning.

2. In it's current release Akoustik is "not ready for prime time". I've already mentioned it's failure to respond to cc7 and cc11, making midi control of volume impossible. Furthermore many users have reported faulty DVD's. The install program will simply install zero length files without annunciating the error when it encounters a file it cannot read. To the user it appears as simply a long slow install, not unexpected given the size of the library. The missing waveforms are annunciated when the user tries to load the piano. The two ways around this are to either purchase from a place where you can exchange the dvd's until you get a good set or copy manually from several different dvd drives. The samples are within a very obvious directory structure on the DVD's and the 16 bit and 24 bit samplesets share the same names. Pick the library and copy it. In my case the DVD drive on my music computer couldn't read the whole disk but my office computer could so I networked them across. Note that the piano has only 50 note polyphony and some of the worst voice stealing I have ever heard. There are also intermittent problems with release envelopes in the stock unit.

4. Olivier is rabid, allow for that. He asked me if I wanted to test his script and I declined. I'm a lounge lizard and my requirement is pragmatic - a piano I can use at gigs. My ears are not attuned to resonance modeling so I didn't feel I was qualified. I had previously tried the script he released - it was only resonance. Whoopy! Even though I declined he sent me a link to an NKI file that was supposed to cure my frustration. Four notes into playing all I heard was the resonance sounds - no body. I tested it in the standalone player, as a VST under Forte' and in K2. As a courtesy I sent him back a description of my computer (AMD 2700+, 1 gig RAM, Gigabyte MB, M-Audio 2496, 300GB/16MB buffer Maxtor sample drive) and a description of the problems. He pm'd me back saying there must be a problem with my computer (never mind that I'm using it with Forte' at 2.5 ms latency at every gig) and I should send him the specs. Huh? I pointed out that obviously he hadn't read my message, that I didn't volunteer for this assignment and that he was a pain in the ~~~ (precensored by me). In return I was referenced as having a "negative attitude" that "would not bring him down" in one of his posts. To his credit, he followed up by sending me a later revision which did indeed raise the polyphony of Akoustik from 50 to 100 (how you do dat?) and worked well enough. I could still get it to play new notes as resonance sounds if I stood on the pedal but for 99% of what I would normally play it was usable. Comparing the sounds I came to the conclusion that for live play, resonance simply makes the sound more muddy. Be aware that the resonance modeling uses up voices. The stock Akoustik maxes out at 50, he got it to 100. I ran his NKI in Kontakt and the initial voice count per note was 5, dropping down to 3 during sustain. Normal use in Kontakt is impossible without editing because there is no release envelope.

I encourage Olivier to continue in his resonance modeling pursuits but would also appreciate it if he would pause to take a deep breath and put them into a more realistic life perspective.

5. If at any point I sound frustrated and pissed it is because I really like Akoustik. After a luncheon gig yesterday I dropped by a friends gig. He is an old time lounge lizard / cruise ship musician and a decent piano bar player that uses a Kurzweil Micropiano midi'd to a Studiologic 990. I couldn't stand the sound - wasn't bad, just his playing deserved better, so I asked him if he was willing to try out a different piano. My gigging desktop is set to boot up into Forte' and Akoustik piano so it was just a matter of the box, audio cable, power cable and waiting for bootup. I played a little to make sure all was set right and he did some tunes while I sat at the bar. It was great! What I noticed the most - and this might be what separates us live guys from the studio guys - was the imaging. From the bar I could "see" the grand. It was damn scary. Yes, it was closer to me than he actually was physically, as if I was sitting at a piano bar even though I was about 16' away. The low notes were especially well miced. Enough of the "out of tune" upper partials to give them character but not enough to make them nasally. They had tone AND gonads.

6. You recording guys may think it sounds thin. I've got no problem with that. This is the first piano softsynth I have gotten excited about for live playing. (That said, if NI doesn't get they butts in gear soon with the update I will be buying Ivory.)

7. I invite anyone who is interested in purchasing the Akoustik to go to the NI forum. There aren't a lot of posts there but there are posts from individuals who have dug into the sounds themselves and commented on them. My first concern remains live playability.

Ernie

[Olivier]

Several things on my mind ...

1. Personally, I don't think this mp3 is all that good sounding. Nobody has mentioned the clipped notes at the beginning.


Ernie

this recording was created in 10 minutes. Without mastering. like a live playing.

the clipped notes : it's a real staccato, fine, fiine pizzicato release of a Steinway D

it's a first time i hear a real release and a real Steinway staccato, pizzicato.

Pizzicato on a Steinway is very clean, fast, nice.... not loud....
...very short staccato

This afternoon i've just tried a Hamburg Steinway B (5 year old) at "Musique GUR" in (France) 90000 BELFORT, i will record soon this Steinway.

I've compared Ni pizzicato programming and the real thing : incredible

With latest presets Xavier B and me have improved a lot of things !!!

However,

NI have to update this thing soon (for frustrated users) :

_ the built in midi recorder doesn't work
_ the repeated keys have strange behaviour (with NI presets)
_ Controller midi have strange behaviour in Akoustik player
_ Main Lowpass/cutoff is useless and should be an option in AKP player
(We can keep high frequencies because samples are very good)
_ the releases voices have to be enhanced to 10 and the sustain voices improved
_ the Ni AKP presets wera created with Kontakt 2.08 and can't not be edited in Kontakt 2.02

the very good news :

_ Bechstein D and Steinway D are incredible :
samples are versatile
_ you will be able to play Akoustik directly in the next update of Kontakt2
_ In Kontakt 2 you will able to off/on the overtones and chosse some features
_ that's is the first version of Akoustik and this master sound already very very good.

Thanks to NI enginner or programmer for this great thing !

No doubt, the first bugs are very easy to fix!!!!!

Marketing is an another thing........and i'm agree with Ernie.

(Don't forget that Ivory is a marketing product too - i will buy it soon to hear the real thing and make a review or ..... improve it !)


Regards,

Olivier

[Alexcremers]

the clipped notes : it's a real staccato, fine, fiine pizzicato release of a Steinway D

That sounded unnatural to me also, Olivier.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Several things on my mind ...


Ernie, if you have GigaStudio, you should try TBO. Man, it's a gig piano for the ages. Just right in the pianissimo, popping in the fortissimo, and everything in between.

[Olivier]

That sounded unnatural to me also, Olivier.

Sorry, but i've spent 3 hours to play on a top Steinway B in Belfort.

The Steinway tuner (Daniel GUR) is my friend, and we have same point of view.

the real thing i've tried : I's a real Steinway Hamburg B, 5 years old , incredible...

It was not a D but the Akoustik have the same playing behaviour than the real thing.

No reverb in the local. After playing this Steinway several hours, it was easy to learn how staccato and release have to be programmed.

Staccato is very fast on a Steinway, very clean.

(just Hear the Horowitz Steinway...)

The tonal colour of AKoustik Grand is the same as the best Steinway's artist recording.

Best,

[ohernie]

Ernie, if you have GigaStudio, you should try TBO. Man, it's a gig piano for the ages. Just right in the pianissimo, popping in the fortissimo, and everything in between.
If I had GS3 I would have at least have tried the demo. For now I have to stick to standalones, GS2 and K2 based units. I had to make a decision about which way to go and I went with K2. I need a machine that is reliable enough for plug and play, as in plug in the AC and play the gig. I've got enough interactions to worry about so I'm not interested in working out the K2 vs GS on the same machine problems.

Keep in mind that my criteria is not based on ppp vs fff but rather live playability and that comes down to imaging and ambience. The standard is hardware modules and cards - Micropiano, PC2R, Motif (ES), SRX 02/11, Nanopiano, EMU, Korg etc. My reference is a PC88mx. None of the hardware modules have a raw sound as good as even an early sampleset like the "Studio 88" (which I really like) but all are more usable in a live environment.

This is why I suggested a forum for us live musicians. It's a whole different ballgame.

Ernie

[ohernie]

Sorry, but i've spent 3 hours to play on a top Steinway B in Belfort.

The Steinway tuner (Daniel GUR) is my friend, and we have same point of view.

the real thing i've tried : I's a real Steinway Hamburg B, 5 years old , incredible...

It was not a D but the Akoustik have the same playing behaviour than the real thing.

No reverb in the local. After playing this Steinway several hours, it was easy to learn how staccato and release have to be programmed.

Staccato is very fast on a Steinway, very clean.

(just Hear the Horowitz Steinway...)

The tonal colour of AKoustik Grand is the same as the best Steinway's artist recording.

Best,

Sad to hear the the real thing has such an unpleasant cutoff ...

:p

Ernie

[Bruce A. Richardson]

If I had GS3 I would have at least have tried the demo. For now I have to stick to standalones, GS2 and K2 based units. I had to make a decision about which way to go and I went with K2. I need a machine that is reliable enough for plug and play, as in plug in the AC and play the gig. I've got enough interactions to worry about so I'm not interested in working out the K2 vs GS on the same machine problems.

Keep in mind that my criteria is not based on ppp vs fff but rather live playability and that comes down to imaging and ambience.

It works fine (GS3 on a machine with Kontakt). But you can get TBO for Kontakt, anyway!!

I was recommending TBO for the very reasons you state. It's going to do the trick live. I know exactly what you are looking for--I have the same exact requirements for live myself. The tone and imaging have got to be in front of the speakers, now wallowing behind them. TBO is that kind of piano. The imaging on it is far more stable than Akoustik. It's got perfect depth imaging, really sits totally still in one place. This goes hand in hand with the depth of sampling. It only makes sense that more timbral range makes for a more stable image, since you're not using amplitude to get from one sample to another. With 31 layers, you're triggering a new sample about every 4-5 velocity levels. So, you don't get the phenomenon of the piano moving back and forth within a given velocity level.

[ohernie]

It works fine (GS3 on a machine with Kontakt). But you can get TBO for Kontakt, anyway!!

Missed that. I think it was a general look at all the resources needed that caused me to dismiss it.

Anybody know the actually memory footprints?

How well do you figure it would work (economy patches ok) on a 2700+ Ghz (2 ghz real) AMD w/ 1.5 gig memory?

Ernie

[Worra]

Missed that. I think it was a general look at all the resources needed that caused me to dismiss it.

Anybody know the actually memory footprints?

How well do you figure it would work (economy patches ok) on a 2700+ Ghz (2 ghz real) AMD w/ 1.5 gig memory?

Ernie

Just got a mail from a customer that runs TBO AND White Grand parallel, wityh 1.5GB RAM.....

[ArsNova]

Akoustik is just okay.
I find the attacks too biting and unnatural too. But not just in the stacc. All around.

Though the p passages sounded pretty decent. The mezzo and above definately need work.

Ars

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Missed that. I think it was a general look at all the resources needed that caused me to dismiss it.

Anybody know the actually memory footprints?

How well do you figure it would work (economy patches ok) on a 2700+ Ghz (2 ghz real) AMD w/ 1.5 gig memory?

Ernie

Hey Ernie,

I think if you downsampled it to 16-bits compressed, you'd be more than good. I did that (3000+ here, so just a tad faster), and I can run lots of stuff concurrent with TBO and do very well with it. My downsampled version eats 49% of my 2gb Giga machine using the TBO-2 patch...which I think is exquisite.

[Olivier]

hi,

Please , play on a good tuned real Steinway...............

a reaL Steinway ............


Attack is the same