Busy Music

[cptexas]

OK, so I'm working on this symphony...still, and it's not working.
I have too much going on. It's soo busy! It's only 48 secondsworth but in that time I throw two eight-measure themes at the listener--NOT GOOD!!! One theme is a catchy, upbeat melody and the other is a bit more smooth and flowing. There is a four-measure intro before either theme is stated, which is in a similiar style to the more catchy theme. So I have this intro, a flowing theme, then a more catchy, upbeat melody.
I have this knack for writing catchy melodies. Whenever I work on this it gets stuck in my head all day long. :eek:

HELP!!!!

My MP3 encoder doesn't seem to be working and my website doesn't have enough room for a 48-second .wav file so if you want to take a listen or if you wouldn't mind converting this for me please email me chris.prestia@gmail.com. (not the address I have registered through the forum).

thanks,
-Chris

[Cobalt Katze]

While I haven't heard your piece, I do have one bit of potential advice to give. Perhaps try doing various things to develop or elaborate on the first theme before diving into the 2nd. You could always do a sort of theme and variation or a fugue-esque counter-theme. Try repeating the phrase, but with a slightly altered instrumentation or color to it. Try putting a different bass-line to it and see where it wants to go! There's all sorts of great things you can play around with on melodies if you find yourself stating them and moving on too quickly.

[SeanHannifin]

I'll send you an email after I post this, I certainly wouldn't mind converting it for you; I'd love to hear what you have so far, I love catchy melodies :D

After listening I could try giving some ideas based on what my brain does with the melody, but usually I can never translate what I hear in my head to the actual piece :D

Here's one method I sometimes use : I give the listener the melody with very simple orchestration (say, harp and oboe), then repeat it with more lush orchestration and maybe a counter-melody (say, strings and woodwinds), then repeat it again with even more lush orchestration (say, strings, woodwinds, and brass, and more percussion), etc. :D In other words, there's so much you can do with just one melody just by changing and developing the orchestration. You obviously don't want to give the audience a fine catchy melody only once after all. A great example is the last movement of Beethoven's 9th, when he comes to the famous "Ode to Joy" melody. He repeats four times a think, but each time the orchestration becomes grander. By the time the voices come in, audiences just have to be in love with the melody! :D

Anyway, I'll email you now, and give some suggestions after listening :D

Oh, and never get discouraged about how long it takes to write a symphony! Remember Hofstadter's Law (see signature) :D

[Cataclysm]

I'll be glad to help if I can http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif. I really don't know what to suggest right now, since I haven't heard what you've done yet. But really, there are many things you can do to make variations of the same theme with different instrumentation and harmony, etc. Maybe in the beginning you could put more development on what comes before the main themes.

You could also try to listen to some composer's works to spark up ideas of a kind of pattern you could implement if you're still stuck.

I didn't take a long time trying to write my first movement of the first symphony. I'll most likely make revisions once I get more RAM though. You could listen to mind if you want though. But it's about 11 minutes long... <_<

[cptexas]

The funny thing about these two melodies is that one of them is a two part one and you can't play it simple. It's just not ment to be simple. It has to be grand (and it is very). The second melody is simple. Like the Ode to Joy. I can probably do something with it in terms of building and building it.

I'll send the .wav to Sean and he might be able to post a link to an MP3.

-Chris

[SeanHannifin]

Here's the cptexas's music! http://wizardwalk.com/music/cptexas.mp3

[cptexas]

Thanks SO much, Sean!
I really appreciate it! :D
-Chris

[SeanHannifin]

And here's my response . . . http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I love what you have so far!! Great orchestration, and indeed catchy melodies!

You begin with very grand orchestration, which I think is good because it gets the listener excited to hear more. Here's what I would do: at about 28 seconds, after that sweet gentle melody, I would repeat the first part (the first 8 seconds). It's so nice, it should be heard twice! I would just leave it the way it is too, since it's so short I don't think any listener will be bored of it's orchestration so soon. And it's such a wonderful contrast to the nice gentle part.

In fact, I could imagine a whole symphonic movement based on your two themes here, each kind of opposing each other, fighting each other to be heard. I could also imagine each theme expanding into a larger theme. The third theme would sound awesome as kind of a "finale melody" so I would save it for the end, but drop little "hints" of it here and there, so as to say to the listener "oohh, wouldn't you like to have this? Well, not yet! You have to wait!" http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

So after you repeat the first part again, you could "drop a hint" . . . perhaps give the theme with very light orchestration and not in it's complete form. Then you could go back to the gentle melody with the the first melody trying to come in in the background. Finally it takes over, dances on stage for a while, before the gentle melody comes in with even greater orchestration. The first melody comes in one last time, before the hints of that final melody just pour in, and then it all goes silent, the gentle melody tries to play one last time, but it is quieted by string tremolos which finale glissando into the bombastic finale! http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

You could also add in a lot of orchestrational play . . . for example, have the woodwinds and strings always "dueling it out" and the brass always shutting them up http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif And then of course you simply must have key changes here and there, especially at the dramatic moments.

Of course, this is all easier said then done! But it's a cool image to have in the head http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Maybe this will give you some ideas, but it will still be quite a challenge.

Again, I love what you have so far; it's bound to be a great symphony! Good luck! http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

[cptexas]

Wow, Sean!
That was a postfull! :D
Thanks a lot for your response. I should name this the "get busy" thread. :p I like your ideas. And the little duelism between the sections sounds like fun. Of course key changes are a must, but would it still be Symphony no. 1 in C major? I guess I can revolve around the relative keys of C.
That last theme, I believe has a lot of potential in terms of grandness. Like you said, string tremlos, horn rips, zipping up and down scales (the theme of the symphony, btw: scales) with a pipe organ holding the chord struture all together. Actually, if you listen carefully to the file posted, there's a really cool rythmic trumpet part that you can't really hear (still have to work on the mix) and chimes come in on the second time around.
BTW: how was the reverb? I worked really hard getting it to sound just right. There is a different setting for each section (mostly just wet/dry mix settings) and I tried not to make it too muddy but still somewhat ambient. I used the FXReverb by Cakewalk (came with Sonar), nothing fancy, but it works.

g2g eat dinner otherwise I'd gab more. (good thing there's SOMETHING in the world that'll shut me up! :D )

-Chris

[SeanHannifin]

Of course key changes are a must, but would it still be Symphony no. 1 in C major? I guess I can revolve around the relative keys of C.
Yeppers :D

BTW: how was the reverb? I worked really hard getting it to sound just right.
The reverb sounds great! Reverb is one of those things I usually only notice when it's really bad, like special effects in a movie :D But your reverb didn't draw any attention to itself, which is a very good thing!

Now . . . get busy! :D

[cptexas]

Now . . . get busy! :D
Yes, SIR!!! :rolleyes:
:D

[Fabio]

Hi,

people let you have already very good suggestions and encouragements.

But a "not written rule" is that you will never arrive somewhere without a precise itinerary and/or plan. (Sean, you know it very well, because you like to write without planning...and frequently you never finish your projects like me..;-))

To make it better you have to create "your own way" or "your own approach" to the two main planning musical systems:

-1) compose the guidelines in a piano 2 or 3 staves paper: not a complete piano piece, the opposite, only the bones, the main melodic fragments, notes about the harmony, the instrumentations, but a coherent and continuous flow from the beginning to the end. The last step will be the orchestration and fullfilling in the final score. This method has been used by all big composers of the late classic to late romantic era (from Beethoven to Puccini, after Wagner, Brahms and so on). This method is excellent to quickly design soundtracks or programmed music (following text or stories etc.)

- 2) create a structure, made by little boxes inside bigger boxes, as an episodic structure, where you describe the dimension (duration) of sections (the summ of sections is the total lenght of your piece) and the content and target of every section. Then you assign to every sections more and more musical meaning (e. g. 10 measures melodics, in Cmaj, strings and winds, main theme development; following: 15 measures strong brass and percussions insert, going from Amaj to Dmin, rythmic coda development;...etc).
The final work will be a big number of little exercise to fill in, really concrete and easier to realize, than a unic big effort, but because you described and planned everything before, the sequence of your little episodes will be a longer and coherent piece)
I use mainly this method for free composition.

Of course the methods are not really separed: you may consider method two as the first step, and use method one to fill the boxes of the structures created with method two, before you make the final orchestration and refinement to check musicality and sense of the "draft" composition.

Ok if my words are meaning something in English, my 2 cents...
:D

[SeanHannifin]

Fabio, that's great advice for me too! :D

[Guy Smiley]

YES! That's good advice for me too, Fabio. Actually I kinda stumbled on method #1 because I was working on 8 measures or so, and I fully orchestrated the first four, and then fully orchestrated the second four, and voila! They didn't fit together at all whatsoever! :)

I'm encouraged to know that the masters used that method too. Do you have any more info on that? I haven't been able to find any. Do modern composers (I guess I'm thinking "film" when I say that) use that same method?

John

[Fabio]

YES! That's good advice for me too, Fabio. Actually I kinda stumbled on method #1 because I was working on 8 measures or so, and I fully orchestrated the first four, and then fully orchestrated the second four, and voila! They didn't fit together at all whatsoever! :)

I'm encouraged to know that the masters used that method too. Do you have any more info on that? I haven't been able to find any. Do modern composers (I guess I'm thinking "film" when I say that) use that same method?

John

The historical way to compose orchestral music in '800 was to find ideas playing piano in real time, and taking notes on "notebooks" or papers, including more or less a piano part with a lot of written comments about planned realization: sometime the composer used this material years later to make an orchestral score, or never, and we found this scratchbook as the only evidence of an unultimated project...

Today it's usual to improvisate on the keyboard ideas, and save best solutions as midi tracks or notation files, syncronized with the movie frames or the lyrics, timing, other events and so on. The final score will be the elaboration of this mastertrack, sometime orchestrated and developed by another musician (an assistant or a pupill of the more important,, and then busy and expensive, famous composer...;-))

A good notation file is the best scratchbook possible: you may transform a few notes in few staves, in a large and rich orchestral work, just adding staves for instruments, and copy-paste, transform and transpose fragments, phrases, themes and all the material previously created during brainstorming or ideas collection.

IMHO if 4 bars don't fit with following 4 bars, it's because you created it in a too much indipendent way. The purpose of the method 1 and 2 cohordination is to avoid this mismatch.

Tell us more, if you like...

[cptexas]

Fabio, your words are GOLD!!!

Thanks SO much!!!!!!
Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Hey Chris,

I must just echo what Fabio told you from another angle...it is extremely easy to get frustrated and stuck if you spend too much time polishing as you compose. I just listened to your excerpt. I can imagine that it is very hard to move on to the next section, because you've completed an orchestration before you've really even begun to sketch out the whole piece. So, you're going from a satisfying sounding place to...emptiness. Hard to face.

I posted similar advice in another thread--try to think of your piece as a painting. The first thing you do when you paint is to use a really LARGE brush, and fill up the canvas with color. Precision, finesse--these are not important at first. Just get your canvas "sketched." Bang in melodies, countermelodies, and just the most basic parts...don't try to fix or clean it up, just keep banging it in. THEN, start cleaning up and filling in the smaller strokes.

The great thing about music and painting is that you can proceed with wild abandon. Don't ever worry about what a work in progress sounds like. In fact, the worse it sounds the better as far as I'm concerned. It's in the most chaotic sounding beginning stages that the "happy accidents" happen--where you might hear an idea that begs for more treatment, and suddenly you've composed something that you'd never have just imagined and transcribed from your inner jukebox.

The secret to all writing is re-writing. So, I would say to definitely avoid orchestrating up little one-minute sections. Spread those ideas out--try to flesh out the piece from beginning to end using those great tips that Fabio provided. THEN orchestrate. You will amaze yourself.

[cptexas]

Oh me gawd I'm in the virtual presence of musical Einsteins!! :D
Ya see, I've never thought of it like that or like Fabio said with the boxes and subboxes. This is totally new to me and it's amazing how much scence it makes in my mind and I amaze myself that I didn't think of that! :D
Thanks a lot, Bruce. You really made it clear to me exactly how to write music, basicly. :D
Thanks x37 !!

-Chris

[rwayland]

Well, lots of good advice here. Here is my procedure.

I keep manuscript paper in the car, so I can always write down ideas while waiting in the parking lot,doctors office, etc. I wrote nearly all of once piece standing on the curb in San Francsico, waiting for someone to come out of the store.

Manuscript paper also by the piano for jotting down diddlings. Manuscript paper hand in a little wooden box/desk so I can write while sitting on the front porch.

Sometimes the ideas come while sitting at the piano. Just as often, the appear while I am sitting at my junk pile of a desk.

Wherever the the ideas come from, write them down as soon as possible, without concern about finessse, correctness, form. Just get the ideas down. Sometimes they will sound pretty horrid. Don't worry about that.

When you are not overwhelmed with new ideas to write, that is the time to work with the things you have written. Sometimes you will find that they will not work as you had planned, but work perfectly well in a different way. So sometimes you simply must follow the way the music insists on going.

Work with fairly simple ideas. Let them develop as complex as needed, but not unnecessily so. Don't try to cram too many ideas into one piece. If you have too many, save some of them for another piece or for the next movement.

When the music begins to get you excited, and you want to hear more of it, you are getting somewhere.

A summation of my idea of form: understanding form consists of knowing what to repeat, when to repeat it, and how to repeat it. That statment is not quite as simple as it may seem.

These are some thoughts that have guided me, and to some degree, are included in the preceding posts, but a slightly different perspective is usually helpful in grasping the overall picture.

Richard

[cptexas]

Thank you very much, Richard! :)
That is a big help, as were Fabio and Bruce posts!
-Chris

[cptexas]

OK, I've given Fabio's option no. 2 a shot. I came up with a structure I like, but was wondering if there were any generally accepted rules for structures like this. Are there any rules like 'no developments on a theme before the theme actually is stated' or 'no rythmic passages followed by smooth passages but smooth passages can be followed by rythmic passages' or anything like that?
Just wondering...

-Chris

[ArcticWind7]

To me, the first theme you talk of sounds more like an introduction even though it does come back later.

One of the things I noticed was in the slower second slower theme you doubled the strings too much always there is that wind instrument present with the Violins. It may be better to have different groupings of instruments wind vs. strings playing different phrases of it, almost like a conversation between the two (clichéd I know).

And IMHO the timpani is used to frequently in the opening forte phrase/s.

At the end, I don’t know why, but I can just feel it bursting into a rendition of a Tchaikovsky or John Williams march.:rolleyes:

[cptexas]

To me, the first theme you talk of sounds more like an introduction even though it does come back later.

One of the things I noticed was in the slower second slower theme you doubled the strings too much always there is that wind instrument present with the Violins. It may be better to have different groupings of instruments wind vs. strings playing different phrases of it, almost like a conversation between the two (clichéd I know).

And IMHO the timpani is used to frequently in the opening forte phrase/s.

At the end, I don’t know why, but I can just feel it bursting into a rendition of a Tchaikovsky or John Williams march.:rolleyes:
Yes, the first theme was ment as an introduction, but to reoccur at the recapitulation and be developed a bit as well.
As for the string-wind combos, I really ment for that theme to be very simple. Eventually I'll develop it and add counterpoint and conversations and stuff later in the piece. Really I don't like this order of themes (hence, the busyness of it) and have been working quite a bit on the structure as Fabio suggested.
As for the timpani, well...timpani is my one of my favorite instruments of the orchestra. There's nothing like a good timpani bang or roll in a climax, so...DEAL WITH IT!! :D
I do noitice a lot of times my music ends up sounding like a march and I'm trying to break that habit. I used to have a very military march-like piccolo part over the third theme on the repeat but it sounded much better just doubling the theme.

Thanks for your comments! :)
-Chris

[Scott McCallister]

I think there has been some excellent advice given here already, so here's my 2 cents worth.

Fabio's structure is good but I tend to follow the trend of moving from big to little so for his example of 3 stave sketches and sectional boxes, I tend to use them in reverse order. I will have a good idea of what the piece will do (the box method) and then will rough out a melody and harmony indications (not even full harmonies... more of a figured bass kind of thing) for the entire piece. That lends itself readily for orchestration.

I think there is one more element that could be added to Fabio's suggestions though. The story. What are you trying to convey? What are you writing about? Most terrific art is communicating something about its creator, or something they are familiar with or that they long to experience. Regardless of the medium.

I find that my most effective works are produced when I have a specific task to write to. That can be as simple and broad as "explore the emotion of rage" or as specific as "Write during-game-play music for a 3-D arctic adventure where your character is a penguin who earns points by catching fish and building igloos. 3:00 ± :05". Having a direction such as these is useful for me to construct a work because it shows the gap from where I am to where I want to be.

Having a general direction in mind allows for "character development" (not to get too "Peter and the Wolf-y") of a particular melody. You can juxtapose it in a variety of different settings and situations. Is the penguin happy? What would that sound like? How about when she is sad, or frightened? Does she have a friend? How about a little Harp Seal (secondary melody)? Do they like to play together? Do they have an enemy? How about a frightening walrus theme?

Perhaps it is better to assign meaningful events to the sectional boxes more like an animator's storyboard than just the sterile theory of 15 bars of F to Dmin.

Nice stuff by the way... your ensemble tutti stuff in the 1st 4 bars and again when it repeats is pretty well executed. Pay close attention to your running melodic lines. All the scalar stuff. Particularly when bar 9 goes into 10. You have and underlying "boom chick" thing going with the basses on 1&3 and winds and strings on 2&4. Very methodic, very rhythmic, nice square even bricks laid in a foundation. The scalar melodic line betrays this a bit by landing its anchor notes off the beat. You might also go back and spike an attack on each beat in your 16th note runs through this passage. It will assist you in determining if the scale is properly aligned with the chordal accompaniment. If you are having problems getting it to land just right, try adding a note, either repeating the same note (cdefggabc)or going back down a note and then continuing up to land the anchor on the beat. (defgagabc) Works the pretty much the same on descending lines too.

As for your busy-ness... I am reminded of a story about Charlie Parker. He was asked how he comes up with so much material during his solos (at the end of a 20min improv run over a standard head chart) He said "I just can't figure out how to stop." To which he was told "Just take the &@#$! horn out of your mouth"

... just make it less busy. Don't put as much on the page. Enjoy the richness of texture created by a single instrument (or section) Linger... savor.