Opportunity knocking...

[danpowers]

I just got this in my e-mail. I doubt that I'll pursue this, but I thought it might be of interest to a lot of you.

Good luck.

Dan

====
Dear Sir or Madam:

We are seeking a talented music composer for our feature film, "Dog Jack."
The movie tells the story of runaway slave boy and his dog who join the
102nd Pennsylvania Volunteers during the Civil War. The film was shot
during the summer of 2005 and is currently in post-production.

We are looking for a gifted composer who can compose instrumental theme
music of nothing less than academy award-winning theatrical feature film
quality, capturing the emotional feel of plantation slave life and soldier
life in the 1860's. We're open to music with a big symphonic feel (e.g.
Aaron Copeland ballad) or something on a smaller scale which reflects the
essence of a period Civil War or southern plantation folk song.

Ideally, you would bring your unique ideas to the project, be sensitive to
the story and its characters, work well with the post-production team and
come up with multiple music ideas before locking in.

We offer a stipend of up to $2000 for scoring the entire film or less for
providing a portion of the music. It is O.K. if you live out of town. The
position is open immediately and can serve to provide valuable exposure and
feature film experience for the right individual.

A little bit about myself and our company. Chicago-based McDougal Films has
been producing films for 20+ years and has a stellar reputation for
integrity and quality. Three of my family short films won numerous national
and international awards, including the Best Film of the Year award from
ICVM. My full length feature, "The Prodigy" was released to 4000+
Blockbuster Video stores in 2000. After finishing a three year
professor-in-residence position at Regent University's Graduate School of
Film and Television, I've moved back to Chicago with my wife, Nevila, son,
Eddie (8) and daughter, Emilia.

If you're interested in the position, kindly send a demo to:

McDougal Films
Att'n: Dog Jack Music
341 Linder Avenue
Northfield, IL 60093

If you can send a DVD or VHS of a dramatic film you've scored, it would be
helpful, but not required. Please make sure your phone number and email
appear on both the cd/dvd/tape and accompanying case. We generally don't
return submitted demo material, so please send us something you can part
with.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you and possibly working together.

Sincerely,



Edward T. McDougal, Producer/Director, "Dog Jack"
houseofcinema@yahoo.com
www.dogjackmovie.com

[dubaifox]

[QUOTE=danpowers]
compose instrumental theme
music of nothing less than academy award-winning theatrical feature film
quality

We offer a stipend of up to $2000 for scoring the entire film or less for
providing a portion of the music.
[QUOTE]

ROBBERY!!

Seeking a composer in a Dear Sir/Madam email is dodgy enough.

I wouldn't touch it. Someone who thinks they can get Acadamey Award Winning music for $2,000 does not undertand the business. He is looking for some young buck to bleed dry, and then probably fire them when the music he hears sounds like S~~t.

"This will give you important exposure" is the oldest carrot in the book.

[Houston Haynes]

"This will give you important exposure" is the oldest carrot in the book.

B-I-N-G-O


A little bit about myself and our company. Chicago-based McDougal Films has been producing films for 20+ years and has a stellar reputation for
integrity and quality.

Thus, he is able to offer $2000 for a film score. Nice budget there, Academy hopeful!

:rolleyes: :cool:

[rwayland]

Thanks, both of you. That really needed to be said.

Richard

[Seq]

$2,000... I could retire!

Based in Northfield, Illinois, well... he did just finish his postgrad, so who knows what this might be.

BUT... it might be interesting to contact him. Actually, it might be a nice break for some of us schmucks who are just starting out.

[Houston Haynes]

Good luck and God Speed.

[Theodor]

You know, for some people who are not deep into the business and are trying to climb the steps, i personally don't think it's a bad idea to do something like this.

There are so many young musicians working for free on student films or game mods etc. trying to get the name heard. 2000$ is better than nothing anyway and you get some credits on top. Right?

And since the title suggests, there's a Latin proverb that goes like this: "Opportunity has hair in front, behind she is bald; if you seize her by the forelock, you may hold her, but, if suffered to escape, not Jupiter himself can catch her again."

Those Latin dudes knew a lot of stuff...just think that they still make the lyrics for most of the cool orcestral/choral songs nowadays - even though they are all dead! So grab the opportunity cause it might not knock twice.

[Ashermusic]

You know, for some people who are not deep into the business and are trying to climb the steps, i personally don't think it's a bad idea to do something like this.

There are so many young musicians working for free on student films or game mods etc. trying to get the name heard. 2000$ is better than nothing anyway and you get some credits on top. Right?

And since the title suggests, there's a Latin proverb that goes like this: "Opportunity has hair in front, behind she is bald; if you seize her by the forelock, you may hold her, but, if suffered to escape, not Jupiter himself can catch her again."

Those Latin dudes knew a lot of stuff...just think that they still make the lyrics for most of the cool orcestral/choral songs nowadays - even though they are all dead! So grab the opportunity cause it might not knock twice.

I agree. I was paid $1500 for my first film with some back end participation that never happened. However, later on it aired on late night TV twice and I made about $20,000 in royalties as I had the main title, 2 other featured songs and about 40 minutes of underscore.

So if you are not that experienced this is a good opportunity. The problem is that is sounds like they want someone very good and very experienced and that they do not have a realistic expectation of what can be done with so little money.

[aelliscomposer]

While I certainly understand the sentiment, I think that the criticisms are in some parts a little harsh. Although the form-mail greeting and vagueness ("stipend ...up to $2000" - ahh based on what, and for what? so it could be a $2.00 stipend for a score with live orchestra?) make it seem a little less than straight up, at least there is an offer of money which lands this more in what I would call a decently paid opportunity for someone starting out, to provide a synth/sample-based score, perhaps with themselves playing on it. The 'dangling carrot' of 'exposure' is usually the catcher on the one-quadrillion posts you see looking for a composer, sorry, we can't pay you we had a $0 budget deal.

I think it's more of a case of "that's not for me" rather than "this is a slap in the face of the profession" which so many of these solicitations are.

Am I wrong or am I wrong? ;)

Post Script: Ashermusic's post above (who slipped his in before mine, durn him!) says it well - from someone with more experience than I, too.

[midphase]

It sounds like a scam to me (as in, we'll pay you after you're done...but never actually send a check).

There's nothing wrong for young hopefuls to try and work on lower budgeted films, but in this case they don't want a young inexperienced composer, they are looking for Oscar material....remember?

Sounds so fishy it ain't even funny!

[Joanne Babunovic]

Hey, at least the guy said "Madam". Interesting to see and thanks for posting this Dan.

[mts]

After finishing a three year
professor-in-residence position at Regent University's Graduate School of
Film and Television, I've moved back to Chicago with my wife, Nevila, son,
Eddie (8) and daughter, Emilia.

I like the warm trusting feeling I get when someone about to rip you off uses the 'family man' angle. I wonder if he's offered Kodak 10% of the cost of film stock to give them some exposure?

[aelliscomposer]

It sounds like a scam to me (as in, we'll pay you after you're done...but never actually send a check).

There's nothing wrong for young hopefuls to try and work on lower budgeted films, but in this case they don't want a young inexperienced composer, they are looking for Oscar material....remember?

Sounds so fishy it ain't even funny!

You're right, Kays, it does sound fishy. I think I originally mis-read the post, thinking he was implying HIS movie would be nothing less than Oscar worthy.

[artsoundz]

Hmmmmm........2k is what I got 10 years ago for Boeing industrials.I suggest googling Edward T. McDougal. It puts perspective on the 2k budget. If anyone does this make sure you get 1/3 money upfront-1/3 upon music acceptance and 1/3 before the music is recorded. Don't budge.

[gpax]

I wouldn't judge this too harshly, but rather see it for what it is - a minor, independent film company with a limited budget. Specifically, one with visions of bigger things to come, but that caters to a specific market, nevertheless.

The language of what they are seeking is a bit broader than the reality of the project, though.

On the other hand, my sense is that the composer in question would be one who buys as much into the vision of the project as the modest pay (and perhaps they should have just said this), and one who is just slightly delusional (and I mean that in a good way) in believing this has the potential of a major career launcher.

Do you know any composers who fit this description? : )
pax

[Lunatique]

I don't know. Does it really matter? How many of you actually make a comfortable living as a composer--as in that's your sole income? How many of you have scored so many films that you feel utterly confident that you have really learned the ropes as a film composer, and that doing another film without "real pay" would be a degrading experience? How many of you don't compose for a living, and have no interest in making a living as a composer, but love composing with a passion? It so, does it really hurt to collaborate with a filmmaker--who's probably barely surviving because he's taken out loans and mortgaged his house so he could make his film?

I don't understand why you guys can't think about things from that angle. There have been plenty of cases where people did creative work purely for the joy and the experience--where money was not the issue, but collaborating with other creative and talented minds was.

Let's say a young filmmaker with a shoestring budget really needs music for his small time indy film, and you all turned your noses up at him. Then he goes on and win a big film Award and becomes a superstar director. Aren't you going to be kicking yourself for not having been a collaborator of his and enjoyed that sense of pride of having worked on a great film?

This is why I respect Jamey Scott. He goes around offering to compose for indy filmmakers like myself and others, and he does it out of passion and love for the animated medium, and because he simply loves composing. And he makes a living at it already--that doesn't stop him from offering to compose for filmmakers he really admires and respects, and not once did he bring up money. Maybe he makes enough from his real paying projects so he has the luxury of doing pro bono side projects purely for the love of it--I don't know, but I do know that's the kind of person I admire.

I'm not saying be a chump and let people take advantage of you all the time, but EVERYTIME I see similar topics discussed here at Northern Source, people always talk about money, as if that was their sole reason for composing music in the first place. Hell, I've been a professional artist for 14 years, and I STILL do pro bono work now and then purely for the love of it. I didn't become an artist so I can turn my nose up at people who can't afford to pay my usual fee--I became an artist because of the love and passion, and because I want to give something of myself back to the world that inspired me in the first place.

[Briody]

I don't know anything about this particular production, but I did some work this year on a Gettysburg DVD.

There is a market among civil war buffs for films like this. Production values tend to be low, but historical accuracy is much higher then typical Civil War fiction. For this reason, movies like this will find an audience.

If this film is anything like the others I seen, it will be heavily advertised in niche market magazines, but nowhere beyond that. You won't find the films at Blockbuster, but if you look around they are easily obtainable.

Mark

[D.Montesinos]

I don't know. Does it really matter? How many of you actually make a comfortable living as a composer--as in that's your sole income? How many of you have scored so many films that you feel utterly confident that you have really learned the ropes as a film composer, and that doing another film without "real pay" would be a degrading experience? How many of you don't compose for a living, and have no interest in making a living as a composer, but love composing with a passion? It so, does it really hurt to collaborate with a filmmaker--who's probably barely surviving because he's taken out loans and mortgaged his house so he could make his film?

I don't understand why you guys can't think about things from that angle. There have been plenty of cases where people did creative work purely for the joy and the experience--where money was not the issue, but collaborating with other creative and talented minds was.

Let's say a young filmmaker with a shoestring budget really needs music for his small time indy film, and you all turned your noses up at him. Then he goes on and win a big film Award and becomes a superstar director. Aren't you going to be kicking yourself for not having been a collaborator of his and enjoyed that sense of pride of having worked on a great film?

This is why I respect Jamey Scott. He goes around offering to compose for indy filmmakers like myself and others, and he does it out of passion and love for the animated medium, and because he simply loves composing. And he makes a living at it already--that doesn't stop him from offering to compose for filmmakers he really admires and respects, and not once did he bring up money. Maybe he makes enough from his real paying projects so he has the luxury of doing pro bono side projects purely for the love of it--I don't know, but I do know that's the kind of person I admire.

I'm not saying be a chump and let people take advantage of you all the time, but EVERYTIME I see similar topics discussed here at Northern Source, people always talk about money, as if that was their sole reason for composing music in the first place. Hell, I've been a professional artist for 14 years, and I STILL do pro bono work now and then purely for the love of it. I didn't become an artist so I can turn my nose up at people who can't afford to pay my usual fee--I became an artist because of the love and passion, and because I want to give something of myself back to the world that inspired me in the first place.
REAlY i Agree...
I´m at the moment "Free of job",
Probably i´ll response the Gig, but i´ll ask more... let´s see...

D.M

[sghoughton]

Wouldn't anyone responding to something like this just put in any contract that they want a piece of the action if there is any action once its released?

steve

[dubaifox]

[QUOTE=Lunatique] people always talk about money, as if that was their sole reason for composing music in the first place.QUOTE]

Um...well, it is a business and yes many compose music to survive and for a living.

The thing that bothers me about this particular advert is this: what he is asking for (feature lenght, award winning quality, stylized music) would probably cost at LEAST ten times his $2,000 offer. And that even would be a shoestring budget.

He seems very ignorant of what it takes to compose, arrange,and produce music for a movie.

It could great opportunity for some hobbyist, or someone starting out and wanting experience. A great opportunity in fact. But he is not pitching it this way, with his demands of this quality, stylisistic demands (not everyone can write period Civil War music) and especially by asking for DVD and showreels. How many people starting out have that?

If this movie is as great as he says it is, then he should have the budget to hire professionals, especially those who have the expereince to deliver on his demands.

And my back went right up with the "It will lead to great things in your future".....yah right.....

[Looper]

This just might be okay if he's paying $2000 for an Academy Award level cinematographer and costume designer. But for some reason I doubt any professionals at that level would work for this kind of money (so they could get "exposure").

[Nick Batzdorf]

If they have a $2000 budget, no problem. We've all done projects like that.

But what I wonder is why they're still feeding on the bottom after having been around for 20+ years and earning a stellar repuation for quality and integrity. Something doesn't quite fit.

[Nick Batzdorf]

Oh. I see Houston says the same thing.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I think it's even sadder than "something doesn't fit."

Unfortunately, it does fit.

We see evidence right here in this thread. There are people who will respond to this offer, and perhaps someone from this very group will hand this guy a score for $2000. And in doing so, they support this kind of non-valuation of the musician's role in filmmaking.

[Markus S]

...oh come on - he just forgot the zero at 2000... :)

[midphase]

I always find it annoying how el cheapo directors are always asking to be sent demo reels, but it really should be the other way around. People who respond to these ads generally have no idea what they're getting themselves into. Most of the time the acting, dialogue and general direction of the film is so bad that it would be difficult to find 2 minutes of it that would be reel-worthy.

When the budget is so stretched, it probably means that the movie was shot on Mini DV (and probably not well) so you're going to be working on something that looks very much like a home video. The sound mix is probably non existent or done by the video editor (probably the same person as the director/producer/lead actor) which means your music will sound like crap within the mix no matter how good it is.

A good friend of mine who falls in the hobbyist/non career composer is currently scoring one of those films (shot on HD no less). He can't even get through watching it, much less work on it. The film is so bad, the acting so retarded and the story so ridiculous that he is really regretting getting on board.

If you love to compose, do yourself a favor and compose! Don't go seeking some crappy movie just to get your kicks in film work, chances are you will be miserable. Crating great music does not require a film. I think we have been conditioned into thinking that film music is the only way a composer can truly express his/her talent, but it's absolutely a backwards way of thinking.

As a working composer, I do envy those of you who have the luxury to compose for nothing but the sake of music itself.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I always find it annoying how el cheapo directors are always asking to be sent demo reels, but it really should be the other way around. People who respond to these ads generally have no idea what they're getting themselves into. Most of the time the acting, dialogue and general direction of the film is so bad that it would be difficult to find 2 minutes of it that would be reel-worthy.

Very true.

[TheOne{]

Edward T. McDougal? (http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/filmography.html?p_id=270993)

The Prodigy? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0237616/)

Ouch. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0237616/usercomments) Some of it's reviews hurt...

[Glenn]

We see evidence right here in this thread. There are people who will respond to this offer, and perhaps someone from this very group will hand this guy a score for $2000.

And in doing so, they support this kind of non-valuation of the musician's role in filmmaking.



Bruce,

I think this happens in any field where the supply of people who enjoy doing the work is much, much larger than the number of well-paid jobs.

You find people who have this choice: "I can do something I love to do for $9 an hour, or I can work in an unskilled, restaurant job for $9 an hour...I'd rather do what I love to do!"

I see this in the software field as well.

I now have proven ability and contacts within large businesses that need professional quality work, so I make a good living at creating custom software as an independent software consultant and developer.

But there are a huge number of kids facing the "McDonalds Choice" who willingly work for almost nothing. And do. And the high quality software people complain that these kids are ruining the market.

So, it happens everywhere that you find the supply/demand imbalance, I think.

--- Glenn

[Houston Haynes]

I thought I was done with this thread - but I have to admit that I got bored and wanted to see where the tenor of the discussion had lead. I'm gratified to see that the tenor of the discourse has remained - only *you* can prevent bad film scoring!

;)

But seriously, I agree with Kays 100% (we've really got to stop doing that). A few months ago a friend of mine got a call from Nicole Nevin - his good friend and collaborator who was in London at the time, orchestrating "Goblet of Fire" for Patrick Doyle. Since she was out of town and booked, she recommended my friend, who called me in to possibly do the sound design for the film. We went to the director's house for a screening, and we knew about 5 minutes into the film that this was "one of those films". Our biggest mistake was staying through the entire thing. Kays did such an uncanny job of describing this film, I'll simply quote him:


When the budget is so stretched, it probably means that the movie was shot on Mini DV (and probably not well) so you're going to be working on something that looks very much like a home video. The sound mix is probably non existent or done by the video editor (probably the same person as the director/producer/lead actor) which means your music will sound like crap within the mix no matter how good it is.

So - after finishing the screening (which was on a 15" television in an unfurnished room), we actually sat there and discussed the film with him and made the further mistake of saying that we'd look at our schedule and call him back. What we actually discussed afterward was "how in the hell did we get into this, and how did Nicole get snowed by this guy?" He was supposed to be "in the industry" as a writer and making his directoral debut - but what it looked like was a long-time loser that killed a couple of days with a handycam and a handful of out-of-work actors. The worst part of it was the script itself - and this guy was supposed to be "a known writer and script doctor". This was a guy that had been in Hollywood for years, and we just assumed (on the reputation of the person that recommended him to us) that he was legit. I'm sure that's how his name got to Nicole's Rolodex too. Well, pfft.

The moral of the story is that you *must* see the film before committing, especially on deferred or reduced compensation gigs.

[Yves]

here's my take on this..

I think it's really bad if someone accept to do this for $2K..

It just keep us composers and musicians with a reputation that we will work for nothing and our talents and efforts are not getting compensated enough for all those years of hard work , music education and all the sacrifice we made as individuals in our social life and lifestyle in general.

I really think this sucks big time..

I understand that some of us need the experience to do this . Like Midphase said , then just try to contact NEW filmakers and offer them your services...even for free..just to get the experience.

Or work on some projects that are benefits..whatever..

but when someone says that they want "Academy award material " for $2K???

well they can screw themselves..!!

enough said..

We deserve better guys...sorry for the opiniated post..

Yves

[Bruce A. Richardson]

My take on it was pretty similar. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I've got this little film, I need some help with getting music done." We have all been in positions like that...but we're usually asking close collaborators we've worked with before to do us those "favors," not putting out an all call.

This is something else entirely. It's very artfully worded as almost a "dare" for a young musician who might get suckered into doing a lot of work for very little compensation.

I think this guy knows exactly what he's looking for--someone who's willing to be taken advantage of.

The guy has clearly been around the block. Why is it that he doesn't have a go-to composer, with all his time in the biz? Why is he doing a cold-call shotgun blast like this? Those are the questions to ask.

If anyone is inclined to talk to this guy, I thing a word to the wise would be to find out the names of composers he's worked with before, and ask them about him. I'd be willing to bet you hear stories that are not pretty. Otherwise, he wouldn't be looking. He'd be hooked up. That's how it works.

Which is a very long winded way of saying, "Something is just not adding up here."

[Yves]

I totally agree with you Bruce.

If this guy has a track record and as been in this busness long enough , why is he posting here at Northernsounds??

Of course , there's great talent here , but offering $2K for a full lenght feature film?????..he definitely doesn't respect the great people on this forum...!

c'mon..this doesn't add up at all

Yves

[PaulR]

but when someone says that they want "Academy award material " for $2K???
Yves

Haven't seen much Academy award material that's been worth $2000 recently. :confused: :eek:

[danpowers]

I totally agree with you Bruce.

If this guy has a track record and as been in this busness long enough , why is he posting here at Northernsounds??

Of course , there's great talent here , but offering $2K for a full lenght feature film?????..he definitely doesn't respect the great people on this forum...!

c'mon..this doesn't add up at all

Yves
He wasn't posting here. I got the message in my e-mail one morning, and since I wasn't interested in it myself, I just copied it into a posting here in case anybody else would want to pursue it. I guess it wasn't one of my better ideas. :o

[TheOne{]

The guy has clearly been around the block. Why is it that he doesn't have a go-to composer, with all his time in the biz? Why is he doing a cold-call shotgun blast like this? Those are the questions to ask.

Especially when you consider, looking at his IMDB, he's apparently been directing since 1982!

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0003761/

One of his reviewers says "Written and directed by Edward T. McDougal, who seems to specialise in BAD movies with a religious message".

[dpasdernick]

Can't even get a decent hooker for 2k anymore...

[Theodor]

I guess you guys are right, this does look fishy and it's probably not good even for someone starting out and who needs the credits.

"We offer a stipend of up to $2000 for scoring the entire film..."



Main Entry: stipend
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: payment
Synonyms: allowance, award, bacon, bread, consideration, emolument, fee, gratuity, hire, indemnity, pay, peanuts, pension, salary, sessional indemnity, shake, soap, sugar, take, take home, touch, wage

[Bruce A. Richardson]

He wasn't posting here. I got the message in my e-mail one morning, and since I wasn't interested in it myself, I just copied it into a posting here in case anybody else would want to pursue it. I guess it wasn't one of my better ideas. :o

I think it was a really good idea. People need to see things like this!!

[belbin]

He wasn't posting here. I got the message in my e-mail one morning, and since I wasn't interested in it myself, I just copied it into a posting here in case anybody else would want to pursue it. I guess it wasn't one of my better ideas. :o

I am one of those people who would consider doing it...not that I'm advising anyone to do so. I've done three shorts, for a total of WAY less than that. Student films, of course, so perhaps it's no harm done to the working pro. From this perspective, perhaps one can see it being great to get 2k. Just a couple of issues with it:



a) It does look fishy, for all the above mentioned reasons.
b) It's no student film. The ones I've done were done more or less as favors, for festival play, for portfolio development, or some combination thereof. If you're after oscars then pay up.
c) Composing is hard. I will never compose for anyone again (unless, as above, it's a favor for a friend) without being paid the full value of my time and tangilbe/intellectual assets. Sorry, but that adds up. The hours required to do my best work are a lot-even for a short. Add to that student loan payments (the cost to me of being a good musician), and the cheques I've blown on s/w and h/w. You all know plenty about a computer-composer's expenses....
d) the whole moral dilemma of taking work like this, versus keeping it real for the good of all musicians, as well explained by others here. I guess it's not a dilemma at all. Reminds me of the time I lost a regular club gig to a piano player with a tip jar. So did a lot of other musicians in town, and rest assured, that guy got no favors from any of us. He's gone now. Good riddance.

My biggest thing is that I wouldn't talk to anyone until they erased "up to" from before the dollar figure. "Stipend of UP TO 2k".....What the hell is that??
You'll pay me however many dollars LESS than that I'll agree to!?

Belbin

[SeanHannifin]

It seems to me whether or not this job is worth it depends entirely on the mind set of those willing to do it. If someone were willing to compose a score for $2000, I don't see any harm in that. Heck, if I had time and enough money to live off of, I'd happily do it for free just for the fun of it. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif Whether you like it or not, your skills as a composer/musician are only worth (money-wise) what someone else is willing to pay for them.

Now, his call for "academy award-winning" skill seems like a high expectation. Perhaps he is just looking for someone who is confident in their work, after all I'm sure there are composers out there who believe there skills could be academy-award winning even if there not. To me, it seems many times the "academy" themselves pick the wrong composers for the award http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Anyway, if he finds the quality he's looking for for $2000 then good for him. Otherwise, he'll realize his expectations were too high and he'll have to do something about it.

[ArsNova]

I think as composers we just have to be saavy these days. It's not the money that's an issue. It's the format that this is shot on. It looks like it was shot on DV. DV is a tough sell in a comercial market particularly for a period piece. It's going to look too clean and documentary like; not film like. If it were a scifi film and heavily computerized it might stand a chance but as a DV film coming from a relatively unknown you're looking at really nothing that's marketable.

This is the kind of film that one does as a student to get experience and a little cash. 35mm is the defacto standard for commerical production. Anything else right now is just wasting people's time.

Ars

[Theodor]

So what do you guys think a good payment is for a full movie?

[spettigrew]

This is typical of cattle calls that go out to colleges and various localities day in and day out; not exactly unionized. The reason this guy doesn't have a team after 20+ years is because he hires college students and recent grads who do this type of work for experience. In school you're paying tuition to compose, so $2000 is a lot to many without experience. The "academy award" music is just a come on.
A little search of film schools found these ads in 2005 for the same production. The DP gig is $3000 + food, gas and lodging and a flat rental fee for his equipment. Any composer would need to "rent" a DAW and a bunch of libraries or musicians on top of any creative feehttp://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif When you see all the composers that are putting up their work for free these days, it's no wonder that it's taken for granted.

CIVIL WAR FEATURE HIRING ALL DEPARTMENTS
McDougal Films, now hiring for "Dog Jack," an hisorically-based feature film set during the Civil War about an escaped slave boy and his dog who join the 102nd Pennsylvania Volunteers. Principal photography will be May through August. We are seeking an experienced line producer, cinematographer, sound mixer, art director, publicist and other department heads as well as interns in all areas. Production managers, location scouts and their assistants are needed immediately for pre-production. There is no pay for most positions, but gas reimbursement, delicious meals, a great experience and congenial working atmosphere are provided! McDougal Films has a successful 20 year track-record in producing award-winning features and family films with his latest feature currently distributed through Blockbuster Video and Netflix. Please email dogjackproductions@sbcglobal.net for more information. Kindly include a description of one or two work-related or other experiences that define your character and the way you work. If you have applicable samples of your work that you can afford to permanently part with, please mail them to Dog Jack Productions, 341 Linder Avenue, Northfield, Illinois 60022.
Edward McDougal dogjackproductions@sbcglobal.net fax: 847-835-5388
===============================================
From FSU
Rex Metz, our Film School cinematographer received the following: I wanted to let you know that we are seeking an experienced director of photography for our upcoming feature, "Dog Jack," a period drama set during the Civil War about an escaped slave boy and his dog who join the 102nd Pennsylvania volunteers. Principal photography will take place from May 20 to August 13, 2005, in Illinois and Pennsylvania, with an additional contingent week for reshoots, if necessary. Edward McDougal will be directing and producing the film. He has 2+ decades of experience in producing educational and feature films which have won numerous national and international awards. His last dramatic feature, "The Prodigy" is in distribution with Blockbuster Video nationwide. S¹At this time, we are seeking an exceptional craftsman, with a good disposition, who pays particular attention to the dramatic nuances of story and character in his work. We have a $3,000 budget for the director of photographyÕs salaryWe reimburse for gas, and once the production starts, for food on the set and transportation and lodging in Pennsylvania. If you own a Panasonic SDX-900 24p camera or similar 24p camera or lighting or other gear, we are open to paying a low, flat fee for its use. I understand how it might not be possible or desirable for many professionals to consider working on a low-budget indie, but I feel there might be enormous benefits in your joining Dog JackÕs team, in terms of the quality of the story (which Disney has shown sustained interest in) and in its purpose to help its younger audiences come to grips with the Civil War and the institution of slavery without sugar-coating these sobering chapters in history. The period elements of the story provide an excellent opportunity for the art department and director of photography to showcase their talents. S¹.If you have a samples of your work that might indicate your ability to photograph feature drama vs. commercials, kindly send them to Dog Jack Productions, 341 Linder Avenue, Northfield, IL 60093.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

The reason this guy doesn't have a team after 20+ years is because he hires college students and recent grads who do this type of work for experience.

We have some people like that around here, except we just call them losers...people who have been "in the business" for years, but cannot seem to accumulate a team of collaborators that stays together.

There is definitely something wrong with a situation where a person who keeps on producing like this continues to have a need to exploit people in order to get his work done. This runs retrograde to the goals of every honorable producing artist I have ever known. I don't know anyone with character who doesn't strive to pay people what they are worth after "20+" years in the business. Scrapping together work like this is what twenty-something year olds do...not what veterans do.

This ***hole is shameless!!! He's not even guaranteeing that he'd pay to rent the freaking CAMERA!!!! And if he did, it would be a "low" rental?

Sorry, but this makes me crazy just reading it. I have nothing but respect for people who are starting out in the business who shoot films on a shoestring. But someone like this is not starting out. This is exploitation.

I guarantee you, if you were to find people who have worked with him and talk to them, that there would be some common thread running through their stories...and it would probably end in "Whatever you do, don't work for this loser."

[Brian2112]

So what do you guys think a good payment is for a full movie?
An invitation to the wrap party?:p :D

...2112:D

[Theodor]

An invitation to the wrap party?:p :D

...2112:D

Hehehe! I'm in then! :D

[Brian2112]

Hehehe! I'm in then! :D
Now quick, let's get out of here before Bruce comes after us with a big stick!:eek:

...2112:D

[Glenn]

He's not willing to pay for the star character, the dog named Dog Jack: :p

From a letter to a Pennsylvania Dog Trainer group I found of the web:


"I am hoping that this might be an opportunity for a dog trainer to get some good exposure through the film's distribution."

"The Dog Jack character appears in most of the scenes in the film and there are a number of repeatable behaviors that he/she needs to do for multiple takes in each scene. The majority of these consist of basic movements or registering an expression of excitement, sadness, anger or fear."

"My last feature, "The Prodigy" was widely distributed through Blockbuster video and many of the Christian films I have produced have been seen by 10's of thousands of churches and distributed to over 20 countries worldwide. We will credit the dog trainer in the film and also give details of the training process, if you are open to it, in our public relations campaign which usually spawns a number of newspaper and magazine articles during and after the production.

"Our film's budget is modest, and therefore can't remunerate our dog and trainer, but we will reimburse you for travel expenses and provide a congenial atmosphere and good food on set. "

I wonder where the profits from the film DO go? I bet they show it a lots of churches for a "donation", which McDougal pockets.

Sounds like a real "Jim and Tammy Faye Baker"-type guy!

--- Glenn

[EricWatkins]

Good catch Glen. It seems that, we as composers, arent the only ones he is trying to exploit. By the way. If any are interested, I have a few opportunities to offer myself:

Looking for someone to provide Gas and Electricity to my house. Unfortunately, I dont have much to offer but I do have excessive contacts to other people who need Gas and Electricity to thier homes and businesses. These contacts payed thousands of dollars last year alone to providers of such services. Once your in, it could be a great oppportunity.

Also looking for a car. A very nice car. Suitable for arriving at the academy awards. Unfortunately I am on a shoestring budget for vehicles right now but........I have had contacts in the car ownership industry for over 36 years now. Last year an estimated 10,000 people or even more, saw me driving a car. Now thousands of people can see your car with me in it. My car was also awarded over three full service awards from Jiffy-Lube last year.

Finally, there is an open position for a money provider in general. Last year my money was exposed to literally hundreds of money users and top money spenders in the united states. I have currently over 20 years of "major" money using experience and have established major money consuming contacts in multiple states and cities. The right person will be able to provide academy award winng money within tight deadlines and must get along well with the post-spending team. Must also be creatively open to new money spending techniques.

Please PM me if interested.:D

Eric Watkins

[Markus S]

Good catch Glen. It seems that, we as composers, arent the only ones he is trying to exploit. By the way. If any are interested, I have a few opportunities to offer myself:

Looking for someone to provide Gas and Electricity to my house. Unfortunately, I dont have much to offer but I do have excessive contacts to other people who need Gas and Electricity to thier homes and businesses. These contacts payed thousands of dollars last year alone to providers of such services. Once your in, it could be a great oppportunity.

Also looking for a car. A very nice car. Suitable for arriving at the academy awards. Unfortunately I am on a shoestring budget for vehicles right now but........I have had contacts in the car ownership industry for over 36 years now. Last year an estimated 10,000 people or even more, saw me driving a car. Now thousands of people can see your car with me in it. My car was also awarded over three full service awards from Jiffy-Lube last year.

Finally, there is an open position for a money provider in general. Last year my money was exposed to literally hundreds of money users and top money spenders in the united states. I have currently over 20 years of "major" money using experience and have established major money consuming contacts in multiple states and cities. The right person will be able to provide academy award winng money within tight deadlines and must get along well with the post-spending team. Must also be creatively open to new money spending techniques.

Please PM me if interested.:D

Eric Watkins


..do us all a favor and send this to the man in question -- great reply!:D

[Will Roget]

Eric - Wow, that's the most hilarious thing I've seen in a very long time http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


About this McDougal guy, I'm sure at this point we don't need any more "evidence" but there are a few things that kinda struck my eye. First off, it's kinda funny how some reviews of his films on IMDB give extremely flattering comments ("IF YOU SEE ONE MOVIE EVER, LET IT BE "THE PRODIGY"!!!!!!!!!!" and "2 WORDS: Academy Award. Nuff said." come to mind), but if you look at pretty much all the others, they tend to sound more like "I didn't know it was possible to release a movie this bad" and "Did the actors have to PAY the director to be in this 'film'?". Of course people will have different opinions, but it's sort of weird seeing 8 ratings of 1/10, and one guy who decided it was perhaps the best film in history? http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif

On a more serious note, I'm wondering what it means that almost none of his films have anyone at all listed as the "composer". I think I saw only one composer out of the six films listed on IMDB, Keith Vivrette... whose credits only include Christian films, all of which seem to have that same curious ratings disparity.

Also I noticed that all of Keith's other films were done by either Dave or Rich Christiano; twin brothers, one of which owns ChristianMovies.com and the other owns ChristianFilms.com. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but isn't this kinda really strange???

[PaulR]

Also I noticed that all of Keith's other films were done by either Dave or Rich Christiano; twin brothers, one of which owns ChristianMovies.com and the other owns ChristianFilms.com. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but isn't this kinda really strange???

Not strange at all - I think you hit the nail on the head.

[jvidal2003]

It is funny, this whole thing reminds me of an old satire called Bowfinger (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0131325/) in which director Bobby Bowfinger (Steve Martin) decides to shoot a film with the cheapest team available in Southern California.

[Glenn]

Finally, there is an open position for a money provider in general...
Please PM me if interested.:D

Eric Watkins

Eric,

That was great!

You know I'd really like to hear how the Dog Jack production actually went.

--- Glenn

[D.Montesinos]

Money ..Money ..Money...!!,
Allways the same.., for me is not just a problem of money, is the quality of a Score depending of its price??, cose my last one i did for 0€. so it was a bull-~~~~??.. for me is an oportunity, yes it will be my first-Long-movie.
I´m just a NOT-Profesional composer, trying to be a Profesional composer.
steep by steep.................HU! Baby!!! ,
Of course i´m not a MEGA_Composer, as many of here... they just work wiht Lucas or two more ..directors.
Just my NOT- Profesional Opinion.

D.M

[spettigrew]

Hey Bruce, Did I sound like I was defending this tack? I was just stating the facts. It's a dead giveaway when someone hasn't developed relationships after this long, in a business that's defined by relationship building. Unfortunately there's a new crop of exploitees available every year for people like this and at best he's educating them at what they'll never want to do again. I fell prey to this very tack when I started in this business, but now these people are easy to spot from a mile away. Promises and pitches in the beginning, but excuses when it's time to pay. After 20 years and no backing from even a secondary studio, is another dead giveaway. Unfortunately, these people grow on trees here in LA. and there's never a shortage of willing wannabees to take up the slack.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I was agreeing with you, 100% I just looked at my post and realized I worded it in a way that made it sound like I was responding to what you wrote, instead of what the filmmaker was writing in his pitches....

Sorry 'bout that confusion. Not intended.

[spettigrew]

We're cool, that's what I thought...just checkin...

[Ivan P]

Mmm Problem is, an Indie film with no budget and all those favors is pretty difficult to make... But if you decide to make an indie film set during the Civil War with no budget.... this is really crazy IMO...

I have been working in Spain in the movie industry for 10 years now... and I have seen indie films done there with more money, stilll a really low budget, and there's no way you can do a period film with no budget... even Robert Rodriguez's the Mariachi was done with 6000 $ and they didn't need to make wardrobe, houses and very complex interior sets...

So are they planning to shoot only close-ups?

I have worked for free in different shorts at the beggining, that's obviously the way to start and get some training...

Right now in Spain you can be paid from 500 to 1500 € a short, nothing to become rich, but it's still a short, which is less time to compose, and definitely not a feature film... and this is not USA btw, we are talking about a much more smaller industry here...

Dunno... I would not do it just like that... though I also know a friend of mine who is doing music for a feature movie done with peanuts, for free... he was sold it would work really good so he's doing it... so if it works, it'll work...(I also have to say that he agreed to do it but without a dateline... so he will compose in his freetime, and when it's finished, he will give the music... producers understood it and agreed...)

It's really a matter of experience and instinct... I would need to meet the guy 1st to see who he is and how he wants to do things, and then realize if this could work artistically for me and if it's worth the try or not...

Just my 2 cents.

Iván

[Alewis]

I think the dollar value offered at this level is low because availability of the creative technology is so high. Anyone with a few bucks can get in the game, bringing down the perceived value of the musical product...