I think I'm gonna like this JABB thingy...

[Godfrey]

So I spent way too long just noodling around on each of the instruments tonight; this library's got just a massive amount of stuff in it, and it all sounds fantastic. Then I figured I oughta throw together a quickie arrangement to see how a few instruments sounded together before I went to bed.

Here's a bit of "Why Don't You Do Right" using Tenor Sax 2, Upright Bass 1, Steinway Jazz Piano and 01 Brush Drum Kit. Apologies in advance for the suckiness of the drum part; I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to percussion. Especially this brush stuff. (Can anyone recommend a good book on it?) Come to think of it, the piano part's a bit dodgy too. :rolleyes:

Why Don't You Do Right (Fragment) (http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/temp/DoRight-Fragment.mp3) - 1.2 MB

Mainly I was concentrating on the sax, trying out the vibrato controls and so forth.

Gary, Tom... anyone else who was involved in making JABB... this is absolutely awesome. Thanks!

[shnurgle]

hey man,

Cool tune.

Just on a very basic level, cymbal hits are always accompanied by kick drum hits (to balance out the high and low end). Also, try chipping the hats on 2 and 4. Usually, you don't want to land on a tom on beat 1, it gives the impression that the groove is comming to a halt. Also, you can experiment with snare comping.

Generally a right handed jazz drummer is working the ride (or high-hat) with his right hand, comping on the snare (and to a lesser extent the toms) with his left hand, chipping the hats on 2 and 4 (with variation) with his left foot, and working the kick with his right foot (accenting hits, downbeats, comping etc) An older technique called "feathering" the bass drum, is when the drummer plays quarter notes softly on the kick to accentuate the bass player's walking line--also called "four on the floor."

Obviously, these are very basic concepts and aren't by any means the gospel truth or anything. I'd recommend checking out some Max Roach transcrition books to get a good feel of bop drumming (and the roots of pretty much all drumming after that). Elvin Jones and Tony williams are more "modern" and expeimntal drummers but who are both deeply rooted in the max roach tradition. For some current inspiration I would check out Jeff tain Watts, Vinnie Calliutta (spelling?), Steve Gadd, Jeff ballard sounds really good right now, Jorge Rossy is a really hip trio drummer... the list is a mile long. Also, I know he overplays like a mofo, but Dave Weckl is a good guy to check out for sheer possibility. His orchestrational choices (within the kit) often differ from convention and he's got a clock you can set your watch to. (no wonder he plays with Chick).

Main thing I'd recommend is to do some listening and transcribing on your own. Transcribing drums is really fun and not too taxing on your ears. (I've gone braindead a few times transcribing Keith Jarrett and Herbie solos). With drums, you really want to get a sense for what makes a groove work, and in my opinion you can only rally get that from listening, not so much from reading.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

EDIT: sorry I realize I didn't really say anything about brushes. Your tune is a slow "bluesy" ballad. The tempo calls for a technique know as "stirring soup." This is acomplished by swooping the brushes on the snare in circular patters. It gives a constant "fffffffffff" sound underneath everything and is usually accented by brush "hits" on 2 and 4 and swing eighths on the "and" of 2 and 4. Also, when playing with brushes you don't really rely on the ride cymbal as much for the "splang-a-lang" subdivision, as it's pretty much taken care of on the snare.

[drdancm]

You have the honor of being the first JABBER, on this forum, perhaps you should be honored with the title:

Sir Godfrey JABBERWOCKY

Thanks for the quick sample.

You might want to pickup Band-in-a-Box which will compose percussion in 5 seconds. Then you can export it to your favorite notation or sequencer pgm, tweak it as much as you like, then play your sax, clarinet etc. with it. Study it and then you'll be able to see & hear how it is done.

http://www.pgmusic.com

It's my all time favorite play along program and like GPO, JABB, it is the bargain of a lifetime.

Let me know how you like it.

Dan

[YBaCuO]

Hee, heee, I'm gonna like all the great comps to listen to!

This was fun. And so easy?

YBaCuO

PS Even for a small ensemble, I'd prefer to hear a little more depth in the ambience - push those drums and bass back and bring out the sax a little. (Do you know how?)

[LHong]

Not bad! I like Tenor Sax & Steinway Jazz, except the Drum/Perc as others have suggested...
Looking forward to your completion song.

[Markleford]

Getting very jealous now! :)

- m

[Godfrey]

shnurgle: Thanks for the tips! I'll definitely check out Max Roach and the other drummers you mentioned. Some of what you said is a mystery to me, but I'm sure the meanings will come clear as I learn the terminology of percussion. :D

drdancm: Hey, good idea. And it reminds me: SONAR comes with a bunch of drum patterns, too, but I never looked into them. Hmmm...

YBaCuO: This was a quick test, so I just stuck a convolver on the master bus. But yeah, normally I'd play with panning and reverb wet/dry levels.

LHong: Thanks!

Markleford: If it's any consolation, you had a hand in making it. :cool:

http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/temp/TenCrazy.png

[Garritan]

Bravo Godfrey! Ye are hereby dubbed Sir Godfrey of the JABBERWOCKYS!

And Sir Markleford the empowerer of the JABBERWOCKYS.

[Hardy Heern]

I thought this was very good Godfrey.....just like I'd walked into a club (just the right ambience and looseness)....very impressive.:)

Frank

[shnurgle]

just the right ambience and looseness

There's a misconception that jazz is "loose." This is a very false notion. All the great bands in jazz history are extremely tight in fact. Jazz musicians (especially rhythm section players) stake their reputations on their ability to lock.

Even the more free ECM stuff, the players are all locked. This doesn't necessarily mean that the groove needs to be stiff-- it can breath, fluxuate with tempo etc, but the players do it together.

One of the biggest giveaways in midi jazz mockups is when the bass isn't locked with the kick and ride, or the piano player isn't in the groove. This would never be the case with a decent band, the cats would get fired that night!

Just FYI..

[dynamix]

Nice glimpse into the potential of this...

[Richard N.]

There's a misconception that jazz is "loose." This is a very false notion. All the great bands in jazz history are extremely tight in fact. Jazz musicians (especially rhythm section players) stake their reputations on their ability to lock.

Just FYI..

I totally agree on the beauty of a tight rhythm section.

However, once you have a tight rhythm section & band, you can then move on the next level of "sounding" loose. If analysed you would find a constant tempo, but each note would be played around that constant tempo - early or late or as part of a very complex tuplet. Of course most players don't play analytically, they play msuically ina jazz groove and just "know" where to place each note.

[squoze]

Anyway, just my 2 cents.
Thanks, shnurgle for those tips.
I thought the fragment sounded really good.

I'm looking foward to more JABBer on the board.

[Godfrey]

This is acomplished by swooping the brushes on the snare in circular patters. It gives a constant "fffffffffff" sound underneath everything and is usually accented by brush "hits" on 2 and 4 and swing eighths on the "and" of 2 and 4. Also, when playing with brushes you don't really rely on the ride cymbal as much for the "splang-a-lang" subdivision, as it's pretty much taken care of on the snare.
Shnurgle, a couple of followup questions, if I may:

1. The brush hits on 2 and 4 -- is this done with the same hand that's "swooping", or with the other hand while the first hand is swooping?

2. If it's the former (one hand does both the hits and the swooping), do you hit on 2 and its following swing eighth, then swoop until 4, and so forth?

3. If it's the latter, do you use the ride cymbal at all?

[shnurgle]

again, nothing is written in stone by any means, but:

If your stirring soup, your using both hands on the snare. The swing subdivision is all being played on the snare with brushes. If you choose to use the ride cymbal with brushes, you play the swing subdivion on that and just use the snare for comping.

or, you can play a stick in your right hand on the ride and comp with brush on the snare in your left.

Although any drummer would be able to do the swooping and everything on the snare with only one hand (especially at your tempo) so anything is possible.

I wish I had a decent brush drum library and I could just post some audio examples of what I'm talking about. Just check out some recordings of Miles' quintet (the 50's quintet) with Philly Joe Jones on drums. He lays it all out in black and white.

[SteveHanlon]

Can you check and tell me how the bones and other instruments are doing scoops and long glissandos. How are these articulations controlled?

Thanks.

[Hardy Heern]

There's a misconception that jazz is "loose." This is a very false notion. All the great bands in jazz history are extremely tight in fact. Jazz musicians (especially rhythm section players) stake their reputations on their ability to lock.

Even the more free ECM stuff, the players are all locked. This doesn't necessarily mean that the groove needs to be stiff-- it can breath, fluxuate with tempo etc, but the players do it together.

One of the biggest giveaways in midi jazz mockups is when the bass isn't locked with the kick and ride, or the piano player isn't in the groove. This would never be the case with a decent band, the cats would get fired that night!

Just FYI..

Baron von shnurgle,

I wouldn't worry too much about my 'looseness' comment....it's used in a sense which means something to me. I'm a casual listener and not actually a modern jazz aficionado. All I was saying was that I have wandered into modern jazz clubs over the years, out of curiosity you understand:o , and what I heard in Godfrey's piece would approximate to what I have heard on those occasions......no more than that.

I'm not actually choosing my vocabulary from modern jazz jargon, so please don't read anything highbrow into it or assume that I'm pretending to know anything about it!:) I never new the word 'loose' meant something so specific in the genre....I will avoid that in future and also 'cool' and 'cats'!

Still I did learn something......so thanks!:)

Frank

[Godfrey]

shnurgle: Is this any better?

Revised version (http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/temp/DoRight-Revised.mp3) (1.4 MB)

I'm still not quite sure how to comp with a snare, but I've picked up a couple of CDs to listen to, and hopefully I'll get a bit of a clue.


Hardy Heern: I knew what you meant. :) I hadn't been aware, though, that "loose" was synonymous with "sloppy" in the jazz world. I probably would have used the same word; having been doing mainly classical (and earlier) music for years, those triplet rhythms feel very laid back compared to the straight eighths I'm used to.


SteveHanlon: The trombone glissandos are done with a portamento control (CC20), at least according to the manual. I haven't dug into that yet (I'm almost afraid to; the GPO portamento baffles me, even with the tutorial. But since this only uses one control, instead of two like GPO, maybe I'll be able to figure it out).

[Hardy Heern]

shnurgle: Is this any better?

Revised version (http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/temp/DoRight-Revised.mp3) (1.4 MB)

I'm still not quite sure how to comp with a snare, but I've picked up a couple of CDs to listen to, and hopefully I'll get a bit of a clue.


Hardy Heern: I knew what you meant. :) I hadn't been aware, though, that "loose" was synonymous with "sloppy" in the jazz world. I probably would have used the same word; having been doing mainly classical (and earlier) music for years, those triplet rhythms feel very laid back compared to the straight eighths I'm used to.


SteveHanlon: The trombone glissandos are done with a portamento control (CC20), at least according to the manual. I haven't dug into that yet (I'm almost afraid to; the GPO portamento baffles me, even with the tutorial. But since this only uses one control, instead of two like GPO, maybe I'll be able to figure it out).

Jeff,

I think I should have said 'natural' and 'real'......that's what it sounds like to me.....can't do better than that! You did a good job!:)

The only way I'd get anywhere with JABB would be with Band in a Box.....this library is made for it. The folk at BIAB are seemingly very much into modern jazz judging by their add-ons. I think that there will be quite a few reaching for their BIAB with this one!:)

regards

Frank

[SeanHannifin]

Godfrey, great work! I love it!

I am a big fan of "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" :D

[shnurgle]

shnurgle: Is this any better?

Revised version (http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/temp/DoRight-Revised.mp3) (1.4 MB)

I'm still not quite sure how to comp with a snare, but I've picked up a couple of CDs to listen to, and hopefully I'll get a bit of a clue.


Hardy Heern: I knew what you meant. :) I hadn't been aware, though, that "loose" was synonymous with "sloppy" in the jazz world. I probably would have used the same word; having been doing mainly classical (and earlier) music for years, those triplet rhythms feel very laid back compared to the straight eighths I'm used to.


SteveHanlon: The trombone glissandos are done with a portamento control (CC20), at least according to the manual. I haven't dug into that yet (I'm almost afraid to; the GPO portamento baffles me, even with the tutorial. But since this only uses one control, instead of two like GPO, maybe I'll be able to figure it out).

Yeah, that's a little better man. I think your ride is a bit hot in the mix. Also, you should play a little more subdivision on it (instead of just quater notes). You've got a nice high hat chip on 2 and 4 there. As for the snare, if you're playing the ride with your right hand, I wouldn't do the swooping thing on the snare, just some hits (like on 2 and 4, or the + of 2 and 4). The swooping on the snare is really only done when you're stirring soup. It creates a "wash" on the snare that would otherwise be provided by your ride cymbal (if you were keep time on it). In other words, you don't need two instruments giving "wash."

I'd still like to hear you lose the ride and go "all snare" on this one. Stirring soup with brushes and playing the subdivision on the snare. Also, this tune kind of has a burlequey quality to it, and honestly if this were being played in a cabaret or something, it would probably be done with sticks (to give it that harder, dirtier edge). Right stick on the ride (as you have it) abd left stick comping on the snare (variations of 2 and or 4 and upbeats).

Anyway, good work man. Def listen to the recordings. Any student, or teacher or person involved in jazz music will tell you, "at the end of the day, you teach yourself this music." You listen, discover things, transcribe, analyze etc. Jazz isn't one of those things that's successfully "taught" (although some educators would argue with me), it's picked up by listening.

best of luck!
:)

[Godfrey]

Well, I tried to go "all snare", but honestly I don't know what the heck I'm doing yet. :) So I went back to the ride cymbal; actually there's subdivision on the second verse (I was trying something on the snare in the first half, and it didn't work, so I deleted it.)

I've been trying to listen to some stuff, but I find it difficult to figure out what's going on sometimes (often I can't even hear the bass drum when it's playing the same rhythm as the bass, and I can't tell most of the cymbals apart). I presume it'll get easier with practice.

Anyway, thanks for your help!

[shnurgle]

Godfrey,
Keep at it my brother, you've got a good thing going here. Plus the fact that you've taken enough interest in authenticity to even pick up some real jazz recordings puts you head and shoulders above most of the "jazz mockups" competition. You're natural inclinations with the drums are already pretty strong. Keep listening to "the cats" and the grooves will come naturally.
Just remember that with swing, the downbeats are considered to be beats 1 and 3 of the bar, so the swing groove always leads to 1 and 3. That's why we play on the "and" of two and the "and" of four...because they "lead" to 3 and 1 (respectivley).
When you're putting together a jazz drum groove, the choice of whether to play subdivison on the ride cymbal or snare (or high hat) is purely a matter of taste, but no matter where it is played, the philosophy remains the same: lead to beats 1 and 3 by emphasizing the "back beat" (beats 2 and 4) and the "and" of 2 and the "and" of 4, (which lead to the downbeats). In other words, a swing pattern on the ride would be virtually identical to a swing pattern on the snare or the high hat.

Anyway, you're tune is sounding nice. Keep up the good work!

-S

[itxlan]

Very enjoyable, Godfrey, and great tips, shnurgle. Thanks for sharing. :)