Joaz 1st Jabb "July4"

[joaz]

As promised many moons ago I have redone my July 4th competition entry with JABB. It is an arrangement of an old spiritual Go Down Moses.
I was seeking to emulate those famous albums by Gil Evans and Miles Davis.
To avoid any confusion, this new version is done solely with JABB.
Fr Hrns became a sax section.
Bass Flute became Bass Clarinet.
Celeste became Fender Rhodes.
In the intro, the original Fr hrns which qouted the anthem have been replaced by Baritone Sax and Tuba.
Any and all feedback welcome.
Go Down Moses JABB.mp3 (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/joe-cavanagh3/audio2/GoDownMoses3.mp3)
New version.
Go Down Moses JABB Vers 2.0.mp3 (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/joe-cavanagh3/audio2/GoDownMoses5.mp3)
and for those who like to compare.....
Go Down Moses original GPO version.mp3 (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/joe-cavanagh2/audio2/GoDownMoses2.mp3)
regards

[Tony Monaghan]

Outstanding Joaz! What a difference, those drums are excellent.

[Markleford]

I really like the beginning. Gotta rework those flugel chords on the rest, though: sounds like a keyboard voicing to me!

- m

[daerp@mac.com]

Joaz

What an interesting comparison. I agree with the asessment of the drums in the post above - VERY nice. In fact the whole rhythm section is excellent. Good emulation of the Miles and Gil approach. I like the scoops in the trombones. Did you do this entirely in a sequencer (which one?). Any notation software involved? I'm having a little trouble managing memory with full big band sequences so far (I find the drums really push the CPU when they are added). Also the reason I suspect sequencer only is that the feel you get in your sequence is very nice. My initial experiments using both DP and Finale show that the only way to get a good swing feel is to play it into a sequencer with the desired feel. Finale's human playback swings like a rusty gate. :D
Nice work!!

Paul

[DPDAN]

I agree with Markelford, the comping sounds like chords played on a piano... another way to improve this is to lower the sounds of these parts considerably.

Fun piece though Joaz!!!!!
This is exciting, you also need to put an end on it IMO ;)
Dan :)

[etLux]

Wow! Superb, Joaz. This is/was a damned fine piece in the original version... but the JABB, yes indeed, it does sure make a world of difference in the feel of it.

But you leave me with some difficult choices, my friend. I do like some of the sonorities in the original version (especially the opening, oh, say) somewhat better -- my classical inclinations bleeding through, no doubt.

Do GPO and JABB get along well together?

My best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[joaz]

Outstanding Joaz! What a difference, those drums are excellent.
Thanks Tony, this is the best Jazz drum sample set I have ever heard. I think I must have spent half of my life listening to records from the Blue Note label, and when I first heard the JABB ride cymbal, I jumped for joy and shouted BLUE NOTE !!!
regards

[joaz]

Markleford and DPDAN, yes indeed the comping chords (Trombones bye the way) use piano type voiceings.This is the technique Gil Evans used in his piano-less big band.They also stab semi-randomly like a pianist. A good example of this styling would be "It aint necesarrily so" from the "Porgy and Bess" album.
Gil Evans often used instruments of the big band in a non traditional way, I am a huge fan of his arrangements, though it is fair to say, not everyone likes his stuff.
I think I may have mixed the bones a bit too loud, they do seem to have a "brassier" sound than the GPO ones. I may have another look at the levels. Thanks for the input. :)
regards

[joaz]

Did you do this entirely in a sequencer (which one?). Any notation software involved? .

Paul
Thanks Paul, Sequencer only, Cubase. Jazz drum programming is notoriously difficult to get right, primarily because swing is a moveable feast.The swing can be an easy triplet or a hard swung 16th note and in very fast bop tempos it flattens out to almost a straight 8th note.
Everything was played in live and then tidied up a bit in the piano roll editor.
Apart from the odd howler and some velocity editing, The Solo Tpt has been un-edited.
regards

[Markleford]

I'm also impressed by the bass: it fit in so well, I hadn't thought to comment on it at first. Good walking, too. :)

(And I'm more Bill Evans than Gil Evans. ;))

- m

[joaz]

But you leave me with some difficult choices, my friend. I do like some of the sonorities in the original version (especially the opening, oh, say) somewhat better -- my classical inclinations bleeding through, no doubt.

Do GPO and JABB get along well together?

My best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.
Thanks David,Yes GPO and Jabb get along together just fine.I also have some preferences in the original,especially the French Horns.They are wonderful at blending unobtrusively.
I thought it might be more helpful to Gary and Tom, to do a JABB only version as there has been much clamouring for demos, and many potential buyers will be checking the early demos before committing. I am sure we would all like to avoid posts which say ..."Say whats the big idea, I only bought JABB because I liked the French Horn sound in that Limey's Demo"........ :D
regards

[etLux]

Thanks David,Yes GPO and Jabb get along together just fine.I also have some preferences in the original,especially the French Horns.They are wonderful at blending unobtrusively.
I thought it might be more helpful to Gary and Tom, to do a JABB only version as there has been much clamouring for demos, and many potential buyers will be checking the early demos before committing. I am sure we would all like to avoid posts which say ..."Say whats the big idea, I only bought JABB because I liked the French Horn sound in that Limey's Demo"........ :D
regards
Ah! I thought that might well be the case.

Just a suggestion, but what about (eventually, perhaps), a demo using the best of both?

Not only do I think it would bring this wonderful piece to its finest quality; but it wouldn't hurt Gary's sales to point up the benefits of owning *both* GPO and JABB!

As always, all my best, Joaz.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[joaz]

Not only do I think it would bring this wonderful piece to its finest quality; but it wouldn't hurt Gary's sales to point up the benefits of owning *both* GPO and JABB!

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.
Interesting idea.I will investigate.
regards

[Fabio]

Joaz, you are already doing very good things. If it exist a learning curve for JABB, you will make someting wonderful quickly soon...

I also would like a little more sound variation in background horns, but it's also a matter of style and taste as you say.

[joaz]

Joaz, you are already doing very good things. If it exist a learning curve for JABB, you will make someting wonderful quickly soon...

I also would like a little more sound variation in background horns, but it's also a matter of style and taste as you say.

Thanks Fabio, yes there is a learning curve involved with JABB, as with any Library. In 48 hours I have so far only studied 1 cymbal in any great depth. So just another 300 or 400 sounds to study. :)
regards

[Quasar]

Nice job, the drums especially were absolutely terrific!

Also, thanks for doing everything in JABB, for those of us who don't yet have the library, despite french horn preferences, etc. Thank you.

[thesoundsmith]

Joaz, I love the arrangement - the JABB drums are quite nice, and yes, the ride rocks.

But I've got to state that I actually like the GPO version better, much to my surprise. Perhaps it's the mix, or my cheap computer speakers, (or the GPO french horns) but I get more Gil (and more Miles) from the first version.

The groove is far better with JABB, but the GPO version is slicker, and this chart seems (to me) to favor that character; JABB is bolder within the same dynamic space. For my taste (and from the rave reviews in earlier posts, I'm in the minority; that's OK, I'm used to it) the best end result would be a mix of GPO horns and muted trumpet (it sounds more like Miles to my ear than the JABB horn; a more be-boppish, Blue Note or GRP sound would favor the JABB trumpets) with the rhythm section, reeds and bones from JABB, and with the JABB mod wheel backed off about 25-30% for the brass tracks.

But that truly is only an opinion, I don't yet have enough time with JABB to make any really informed statements... :rolleyes: :cool:

[joaz]

I don't yet have enough time with JABB to make any really informed statements... :rolleyes: :cool:
Thats cool Soundsmith, I don't yet have enough time with it to make any informed answers either. :)
Thanks for the input and opinions. I guess we are all finding our way with this new Library.
This does remind me of a recent thread over in the Sample Libraries Area.Some dude did a demo with EW, and then did the same thing with VSL. Most people preferred the original. When you tweak a demo towards one Library, it is no certainty that a different Library will capture all the nuances.
I may have been better advised to write something new for the JABB.Also I chose a Gil Evans approach,back in July because he used a very Brass -Heavy sound with minimal Saxes.So I thought I might get away with it using GPO.Now I have done it with JABB, people are missing the Saxes a bit.
Still, all input, criticsm etc, is very welcome, as we all find the best ways to utilise this Fantastic Library. :)
regards

[thesoundsmith]

Joaz, it's only going to get better. It is absolutely true that changing libs often produces unexpected results. I have an original composition that sounds terrible, but correct enough for verification purposes before printing the score. When I opened it in JABB, it was unlistenable (just default.) It tool a couple of hours tweaking and changing ccs just to hear the tracks in rough balance, and of course all the attacks and volume changes were wrong. It will be easier to replay the tracks than to re-enter all the controller data.

But that's the challenge of a new tool. Have fun, I surely will. :D

[daerp@mac.com]

Thanks for the info. When working in Cubase (I'm DP) did you experience any cpu overload at all? Reason I ask is that everything was going great in this first project I am doing with JABB but as soon as I started in with drums the CPU readout redlined. And I got dropouts. I MUST be doing something wrong because I have plenty of RAM and dual 2Ghz processors. Should be enough shouldn't it?

Thanks again for your help.
Paul

Thanks Paul, Sequencer only, Cubase. Jazz drum programming is notoriously difficult to get right, primarily because swing is a moveable feast.The swing can be an easy triplet or a hard swung 16th note and in very fast bop tempos it flattens out to almost a straight 8th note.
Everything was played in live and then tidied up a bit in the piano roll editor.
Apart from the odd howler and some velocity editing, The Solo Tpt has been un-edited.
regards

[joaz]

Thanks for the info. When working in Cubase (I'm DP) did you experience any cpu overload at all? Reason I ask is that everything was going great in this first project I am doing with JABB but as soon as I started in with drums the CPU readout redlined. And I got dropouts. I MUST be doing something wrong because I have plenty of RAM and dual 2Ghz processors. Should be enough shouldn't it?

Thanks again for your help.
Paul
I did have the odd cpu spike,but it was associated with a reverb unit.Turn of the unit,no spikes.The cymbals have long and natural decays (Thank God) so I would expect spikes to occur with lots of Crashes.Is that the case with you?
regards

[joaz]

I have looked at this piece again, and before attempting to do a JABB/GPO hybrid. I have tried a slightly different approach, and tried to push it in a slightly more traditional Big Band direction.
Sax Section added. Bones redone with vibrato's added.I found the nice darker Reverb I used on GPO version.

Disclaimer; Though I have been a Jazz Musician for nearly 30 years, I am by no means a Big Band afficionado. I have never played in one. All my experience has been in small groups, from trio's up to Nonet's.( which is what I hope to mostly use this library for.) Most of the Big Band stuff I like tends to be atypical of the genre, so dont judge this library too harshly by my meagre efforts.This Library has fantastic sounds, and there are so many controllers at your disposal, it is possible to create a highly personal sound. Which after all is one of the joys of Jazz. :)
Here is Version 2.
Go Down Moses Jabb Vers 2.0 mp3 (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/joe-cavanagh3/audio2/GoDownMoses5.mp3)

As ever your input is highly valued.
regards

[Markleford]

Wow, those saxes really make it shine!

- m

[tradivoro]

Hey Joaz, that's terrific, really great sounding, great job...

[joaz]

Wow, those saxes really make it shine!

- m
Thanks Markleford, Let me be frank and say I was VERY nervous about using the Saxes, given some highly inflammatory threads on the subject. I know I have got nowhere near getting the best out of them, but with time , study , and application, the possibilities look beguiling. :)
regards

[joaz]

Hey Joaz, that's terrific, really great sounding, great job...
Thanks for the good word, man. ;)
regards

[Markleford]

Thanks Markleford, Let me be frank and say I was VERY nervous about using the Saxes, given some highly inflammatory threads on the subject. I know I have got nowhere near getting the best out of them, but with time , study , and application, the possibilities look beguiling. :) Well, solo sax will still be quite a hurdle to attempt ;), but both your demo and Godfrey's "In The Mood" are pleasing me in a section context.

That bit at 2:26 is downright *tasty*! :D

- m

[Styxx]

Nice job on the kit man! Pretty cool piece. I favor with JABB best!

[joaz]

Well, solo sax will still be quite a hurdle to attempt ;),

- m
I totally agree, and I wont be posting one, till I have had a chance to investigate in depth all the options.
regards

[joaz]

Nice job on the kit man! Pretty cool piece. I favor with JABB best!
Thanks Styxx.There are 1,000's of drum Libraries out there allready, and I have heard/used a fair few of them, but in all honesty the JABB drums are the REAL deal. It is hard to put into words, but they have a " Magical " quality to them and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
regards

[RichR]

I really like this arrangement.

Cool Jazz:cool: !
For having not played in a big band, you have captured a wonderful feel for it. Thanks for sharing this with us.

RichR

[drdancm]

Fantastic!

I listened to all 3 demos and v 2.0 is quite a bit better than v 1.0 w JABB. However I really like your original GPO version as well. It's a different sound, a different arrangement. It's so good I think you could easily pass these off as performances by real musicians to most people. Especially if they were not put on the alert by any comments of "synth vs non-synth".

Great Job!

Would you mind telling us what software and equipment you used to create these?


Thanks,

Dan

[drdancm]

Sorry, I just noticed that you already answered software/hardware question.

I was so eager to give you feedback I didn't scroll down enough.

Thanks,

Dan

[etLux]

Here is Version 2.
Go Down Moses Jabb Vers 2.0 mp3 (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/joe-cavanagh3/audio2/GoDownMoses5.mp3)

Gosh... just too darned many choices, Joaz.

I like all three versions -- and you know I admire the piece itself.

However, I still lean toward the original (GPO) somewhat more, but would be highly desirous of a Chinese menu approach -- a bit of each!

I've never played a Big Band lick in my life, though; and tend to hear through the filters of a classically oriented musician.

Yet... Joaz, there's always a certain classical influence lurking in, or sometimes dominating, your work and the sensibilities of it... unfailingly, there's an implicit discipline and cogency to it.

I wonder if it is my perception of that which guides my ear toward a much less Jazz-like sonority for this piece?

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[joaz]

Yet... Joaz, there's always a certain classical influence lurking in, or sometimes dominating, your work and the sensibilities of it...
David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.
The funny thing is David, people have often said my classical work always uses a certain Jazz influence. I guess I am a product of both my education and inclinations.
Even in my Classical pieces, my muse is essentially improvisational. It takes me a long to time to study forms, because they only work for me when I know them so well, I can forget about them, and just improvise freely within them.
I have taken enough from my classical studies to don a different hat,wield the blue pencil, and edit and organise my improvisations.I spent many confused years as a composer regretting my improvisational nature, thinking I must be missing out on where the real compositional action is, but alas a more intellectual approach produced dross of the first order in my case.
This 4th of July doodle, was a hastily assembled improvisation, on the GPO instrument.But as you well know an improv on a Cathedral Organ would turn out quite differently if tried on a spinet.
I think I may have made a mistake, in trying to force the piece from one sonority into another.It would make more sense to just write a new piece for the JABB. But sadly playtime must wait a little longer,as I am quite tied up. :(
This is what happens when a Brit tries to make a Yankee Doodle , Dandy. :D
regards

[joaz]

I really like this arrangement.

Cool Jazz:cool: !
For having not played in a big band, you have captured a wonderful feel for it. Thanks for sharing this with us.

RichR
Thanks for the listen Rich.I appreciate your kind words. ;)
regards

[joaz]

. It's so good I think you could easily pass these off as performances by real musicians to most people.
Dan
Some people might buy it, I suppose , especially if sufficiently distracted by,Images,Dancers etc,
But I honestly doubt whether any Jazz musicians, would buy it. And even if they did, they would all criticise it, and tell me how they would have done it. :p

But that is exactly as it should be. Jazz is instantaneous personal expression, so to like your own way of doing things is keeping faith with your muse , I guess.
regards

[etLux]

I spent many confused years as a composer regretting my improvisational nature, thinking I must be missing out on where the real compositional action is, but alas a more intellectual approach produced dross of the first order in my case.
And... the winning ticket is:

Composition *is* improvisation.

Or, at least, most certainly, the creative part of the process is.

Stop and think, how many pieces (especially student pieces, though those of the hopelessly uninspired also qualify) have you heard that are technically perfect -- yet leave you a drooling madman scraping at the walls to get away from the bloody horror of them? Perfection and the creativity of improvisation are not mutually exclusive, of course; but a composition lacking the improvisatorial element is... dead meat.

[This is one of my favorite diatribes. I will courteously stop now.]

I might also comment that, at least when I'm writing -- the ensemble in many ways shapes the composition. Naturally. Of course it would. The ensemble is just as much a part of the composition as the notes are.

For instance, Gary once quite innocently asked me if I would consider orchestrating Piano Sonata #7. As much as I truly like Gary, I nearly hung up the phone... lol.

Point being -- I think when you write to a specific ensemble, with certain colors and sonorities in mind (even if only subconsciously)... re-casting the work to a different ensemble rarely works well.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[joaz]

Perfection and the creativity of improvisation are not mutually exclusive, of course; but a composition lacking the improvisatorial element is... dead meat.
David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.
I totally agree David. It continually fascinates me, that Beethoven and Bach are justly famous for their organisational power, and yet were famous in their day for being legendary improvisers. Some might be so bold as to say, that the gradual fading away of improvisation as a tool in Classical Music, and the fervent embrace of the abacus, slide rule, and other instruments of torture, has not always yielded favourable results. ;)
regards

[Garritan]

For instance, Gary once quite innocently asked me if I would consider orchestrating Piano Sonata #7. As much as I truly like Gary, I nearly hung up the phone... lol..I was wondering why the phone went dead when I mentioned it http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

[etLux]

I was wondering why the phone went dead when I mentioned it http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.
I tend to grow instantly silent when faced by unspeakable horrors... lol.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[etLux]

I totally agree David. It continually fascinates me, that Beethoven and Bach are justly famous for their organisational power, and yet were famous in their day for being legendary improvisers. Some might be so bold as to say, that the gradual fading away of improvisation as a tool in Classical Music, and the fervent embrace of the abacus, slide rule, and other instruments of torture, has not always yielded favourable results. ;)
regards
Aw geez... you just hit another of my favorite diatribes... lol.

In the days of Bach and Beethoven, if you couldn't instantly improvise on anything stuck in front of you -- they basically threw you out of music school. No kidding. You were considered unfit to the profession.

That tradition seems to largely have vanished (everywhere but in Jazz, at any rate) -- though, fortunately, back in the dark ages when I went to school, I had teachers who thought likewise.

Indeed, my own compositional process is largely a matter of adapting the sort of improvisational thinking I was so comfortable with back in the days when I was still a pianist -- but doing it with the piano out of the picture.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[thesoundsmith]

Joaz, I finally noticed the V2 post. Major improvement! I still think the GPO trumpet sounds more Miles-ish, but the orchestration is a lot more real on this pass. Very nice...

[joaz]

Joaz, I finally noticed the V2 post. Major improvement! I still think the GPO trumpet sounds more Miles-ish, but the orchestration is a lot more real on this pass. Very nice...
Thanks man, if I get a chance I will do a JABB/GPO hybrid version.
regards

[joaz]

Aw geez... you just hit another of my favorite diatribes... lol.

www.DavidSosnowski.com
.
Heh, heh, I always enjoy your well-mannered rants David. I actually learn something from your diatribes. When I start ranting, my language tends to descend to coarser, lower cussing, most of which is not fit to post, and frankly lacks any conversational merit. :)
regards

[valhalx]

Joaz,
I remember the original and was quite impressed with it then. The new version has left me speachless. For JABB, the sound is beyond convincing. For your rendition, the balance, reverb and dynamics are dead on.
Bill

[joaz]

Joaz,
I remember the original and was quite impressed with it then. The new version has left me speachless. For JABB, the sound is beyond convincing. For your rendition, the balance, reverb and dynamics are dead on.
Bill
Thanks Bill, I am sure that I could get it to sound a whole lot better, but the encouraging thing for would be buyers, is that even a novice such as I, can get a reasonably decent sound.
regards