Help with Notating [Archive] - northernsounds.com

ewoh24

11-29-2005, 02:57 AM

Hi Folks-

So here I am, 32 years of age and after 24 years rocking out, I decide that classical music is much more interesting! I've been an ear player for all of that time, never finding a need for reading music. So I never learned.

Now I'm trying to catch up. I'm working with GPO and Overture to score some of my pieces. Problem is, I have no idea what I'm doing! I know the basics well enough...I certainly know what notes are what. But my brain starts to hurt when I begin to think about time signatures and note values, tuplets and triplets and generally how to get what I hear in my head onto the page instead of through my fingers. Can anyone suggest anything to help me along here? Anyone learn to read and write music late in the game? Pointers, offers to proofread, anything will be greatly appreciated and most welcome.

I thank you all for any help you may share.

Peace,

Scott

SeanHannifin

11-29-2005, 03:30 AM

I wouldn't call myself a professional notator, if there are such things . . . in other words, I'm sure there's still some notating things I don't know about. However, I do feel I have a pretty decent grasp on it, having taught myself over the last 3 years I've been composing.

I think there are two factors involved in notation: reading it and writing it. I think for reading it the best way is simply to get your hands on some real orchestral scores, like a Tchaikovsky symphony, and just try following along. Usually you'll find it's easiest to follow along with whatever instrument is playing the melody, as it is the easiest to hear. I think listening to music while following along with their corresponding scores is a great way to get a sense for what the note values sound like when played out.

And then of course for instrument players there's the skill of site-reading a score, which is more difficult and requires more practice to grasp, especially when the note values are all over the place, or you have to read multiple note for your instrument, like on a piano. This is just a skill that has to be developed with practice, practice, and more practice I believe.

As for writing it, a method I often employ to figure out the note values to what I hear in my head is simply to snap my fingers or something for the beat while sounding out the notes, trying to figure out the notes' relationship with the beat. It usually ends up being something quite simple. Since you say you've been playing by ear, this should come naturally and be pretty easy. In fact, you'll probably be surprised by how easy notation really is. I think it's just a matter of getting accustomed to the visual aspect of it, i.e. what the notes values look like and such.

I could go into more detail about all the note values and such, but one book that I had my library buy really helped, the "Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory" (though of course I in no way mean to imply that you are an idiot :) )
The book doesn't go into advanced theory topics, but it's great for learning about notation I think. Here's an Amazon.com link to it:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592574378/

Hope this helps!

And of course post any more questions! About a year ago I was unsure about beaming rules, and the folks here were glad to help. :)

ewoh24

11-29-2005, 08:19 AM

Sean-

I thank you for your thoughtful, encouraging response. Funny, I was looking at that very book just last week at Barnes & Noble. My 5 year old daughter and I were making out our Christmas lists for Santa (!) over the Thanksgiving weekend and I listed that book. My daughter leans over to read my list and exclaims: "Dad! You're not an idiot!!" I thought to myslef: "I wonder how long I have before that sentiment changes??"

Thanks again!

Jeff Turner

11-29-2005, 01:38 PM

dvincent

11-29-2005, 06:16 PM

Scott,

It looks like what you are looking for is a book about music notation. Something that clarifies clefs, key signatures, beaming, spacing, etc. Below are 2 book I recommend.

The first is used at Berklee and is a good basic book. It covers a good amount of ground and is very clear, but not too heady. It is a good basic reference book.

Music Notation - Mark Mc Grain
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0793508479/002-5256171-2246451?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

The second book becomes more technical and advanced. It is my go-to book when I run across a notational issue.

Music Notation - Gardner Read
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0800854535/002-5256171-2246451?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

One of the best things to do to learn notation is to carry music (a score?) around with you and read it like a book. Seeing the correct techniques will become imbedded and notating the wrong way will look - well, wrong.

Hope this helps,
Derek

chet reinhardt

11-29-2005, 09:57 PM

It is a well established prinicple that it is easier to associate something unfamiliar with something familiar. So...

You might find it easier to learn notation by getting some transcriptions of music you're familiar with (The Beatles Complete Scores perhaps? Or whatever you know well musically) and learn notation by reading them and entering them into your notation program/sequencer.

Might be easier than learning two unfamiliar things at the same time.

In any case, enjoy.

Chet

dvincent

11-30-2005, 04:49 PM

Good point, Chet.

imagegod

11-30-2005, 09:11 PM

Problem is, I have no idea what I'm doing! I know the basics well enough...I certainly know what notes are what. Can anyone suggest anything to help me along here? Anyone learn to read and write music late in the game? Pointers, offers to proofread, anything will be greatly appreciated and most welcome.
I thank you all for any help you may share.
Peace,
Scott
Use your ears...trust your ears...allow yourself to toss out the crap and pursue what's great...period.

That's what so wonderful about the new world of computers...you can write a note and you can hear a note...immediately. Two notes...the same. Two chords...etc. Notating is simply the form that allows the individual to create musical structure. The rules of this form are (ultimately) meaningless...the necessity of musical greatness is that which is (ultimately) meaningful.

In some ways, that's the difference between writing novels (which I do) and writing Classical works (which I also do). Translating ideas into novels requires learning the rules of the form: from alphabet to vocabulary to grammar, the meaningful expression of ideas absolutely requires these forms. Without an intimate knowledge of English, sentance structure, etc, communicating a sophisticated image/plot is nearly impossible.

On the other hand, creating the meaningful expression of musical ideas requires a great vision and the ear to steer that vision. With a computer and notational software, you can be dumb and blind (literally) and still be capable of creating great music. I know nothing about theory, proper notation, etc. I DO know what great music sounds like. Notational software and GPO allow me to pursue that sound. That structure. That greatness...

Good luck!

Jeff Turner

12-01-2005, 03:16 PM

The rules of this form are (ultimately) meaningless...the necessity of musical greatness is that which is (ultimately) meaningful

I don't totally agree with the first part of this statement. If a composer is writing music solely for him/herself, then the rules of the form are ultimately meaningless. Whatever method the composer uses to create is enough in itself. This is true now more than ever with computer realizations of the music.

But when you decide to have human beings perform your music, now the (notation) rules of the form are essential. Knowing and understanding these rules allows the composer to communicate to the performer the heart and soul of this music. And standard music notation is the language that we use to do that.

Notation programs can't do it all, yet.

Jeff

Styxx

12-05-2005, 12:06 PM

Here is an instructional book that if one is honest and true to the books instructions, can be quite instructional and has helped many of my students go on to better understanding in writing music. You will find at amazon books.

*Norton's Programmed Text
Scales, Intervals, Keys, Triads, Rhythm, and Meter
* Third Edition
* John Clough, State University of New York at Buffalo
* Joyce Conley
* Claire Boge, Miami University of Ohio
* ISBN 0-393-97369-7 • paper, with CD • 1999

Jesse Hopkins

12-06-2005, 06:05 PM

Jeff Turner

12-06-2005, 06:18 PM

"Notation programs can't do it all, yet. "

Actually, real music that is played by real orchestras is notated on notation programs. Computer notation is what is used for engraving new editions of old music. Anything is possible in computer engraving.

Actually I wasn't refering to engraving abilities of notation software. I was refering to notation programs ability to interpret and notate a midi file or playing a phrase on a midi controller and letting the program notate that. Too often the result is something obscure that only another computer could understand. Like all software, the results that are achieved from a notation program are only as good as the user who creates it.

Jeff

ewoh24

12-06-2005, 06:22 PM

Thanks folks for all the wonderful suggestions. I've added quite a few of the books to my WishList on Amazon (thank God for Christmas!).

In reference to the notation programs, I wrote out the flute part to a piece Ive been working on and it plays perfectly in Overture, yet I gave it a friend of mine who reads and he said he couldn't even find the beat! All the notes were correct, but the rhythmic aspect was non-existant.

Any tips on how meter and rhythm works?

ewoh24

12-23-2005, 10:58 PM

Thanks! I've not gotten too far on the scoring, mainly because I know it's wrong! So here's what I've got for the flute part:

[URL="http://homepage.mac.com/ewoh24/ScotTunes/FileSharing32.html"]

Thanks for checking it out!

Scott

snorlax

12-25-2005, 06:36 PM

Scott, I took a look at the pdf and these are my observations:

1) First of all, if you're serious about learning notation, you need to get a proper notation app. Whatever app you have doing the notation here is bloody awful. The font, the spacing, the engraving issues, et cetera, are all going to hold you back.

Olen, let's not discourage our friend. As our friend is a beginner in notation, so is our friend likely a beginner with notation software. As notation must be learned--as our friend will learn it--so must use of notation software be learned.

Perhaps Scott played this in in real time or tried to enter his version of what it was.

As someone who regularly uses the notation software in the posted example as well as a popular other package (that one since 1989) I know well that "out-of-the-box" renderings are often rough. As a user of the notation product in the example, and as a small part of a team that has helped with its MAJOR update, I KNOW with 100% certainty that it can be used to produce fine scores that meet professional standards and play back with the ultimate expression with GPO. At least the people who pay me for my copy work have not told me I need to switch software.

So...let's help our friend learn notation AND the software that allows us to realize it!!

PS--Olen, and EVERYONE: Go immediately to the listening room and catch Bill's (Valhalx's) version of Brahms 1st using this notation software and GPO--virtually straight out of the box. Bill says that he used only the software, GPO, and GPO reverb. No fancy post-editing or production!!!

Merry Christmas...
Jim

Guy Smiley

01-04-2006, 03:56 AM

Hey Scott,

Did anyone comment on your PDF? I looked at it tonight, and I can tell what your flutist friend is getting at. It is difficult to feel the beat, but I imagine there's probably some accompaniment in other parts that establish the beat? So I dunno, that might not be a big deal.

It's a little weird that Overture didn't beam the first two eighth notes in bar #7 together.

I must say that the 4-note dealie in bar #9 is quite a doozy :). I don't know about anyone else, but it would require some serious mental gymnastics plus maybe hours of deep meditation before I could wrap my brain around playing four notes in the space of three like that :). I have a feeling that almost everyone would find that unplayable, though I could be wrong. Maybe someone else has an opinion on that?

Then also I think that there are rules about quarter notes lying across the beat--I mean the E in bar #9. That might actually need to be shown as two eighth notes tied together (although it would be played exactly the same).

Consider that I'm only an amateur, and haven't scored much, though I have read music for 20 years!

John

ewoh24

01-04-2006, 08:09 PM

Folks-

Excuse my absence. I toasted the hard drive in my PowerBook and just got back online.

Wow...good thoughts and observations from everyone. Most of what you all are saying is still somewhat Greek to me. Yes, I did play the flute part without notating and have been trying to write it out AFTER the fact. Unfortunately, until I can score, that's the way I have to compose. I absolutely wish it didn't have to be that way, but that's why I'm learning. I'd love to sit down with pen and paper and write out my musical thoughts. Perhaps this piece of mine is not the best to start with. It seems to be a bit rhythmically puzzling. There is a link to the actually audio recording of the piece in the forum where we post such things. It's named "Synergy for Flute and Harp" Perhaps those of you who were kind enough to peruse my mess of a notation would take a listen and give notating it a shot?

Thanks to all,

Scott

ewoh24

01-04-2006, 08:28 PM

BTW-Did some posts get deleted? Where is the fellow who originally commented on my piece?

Guy Smiley

01-04-2006, 09:15 PM

BTW-Did some posts get deleted?

Yeah I was confused by that too....the only posts I ever saw were mine and Snorlax's

ewoh24

01-06-2006, 10:59 AM

Folks-

I just realized that my earlier request to have some of you listen to my piece and do a little notating of it might be construed that I'm asking somebody to transcribe the piece for free. To clarify, that is not at all what I meant...I was hoping someone could just give a listen and sketch out the rhythm and possible just a few bars so I can visualize where I'm going wrong. Hope that is ok to ask here. I certainly don't want to ruffle any feathers.

Thanks,

Scott

Guy Smiley

01-06-2006, 02:22 PM

I listened to your piece. I think I can see why you're having trouble. Although small sections have their own rhythms, I don't think I hear a beat per se. Instead it sounds very "ad lib" to me.

I don't think I've ever seen notation for something like that, so I don't really have a clue as to how one would do it :(. Hopefully someone else out there has an idea. Is there such a thing as music without bars and without time signature? Because I think any bars or time signature that you'd assign to this piece would end up being fairly arbitrary.

John

ewoh24

01-06-2006, 04:26 PM

I think that's so weird. My piece can't be notated correctly? So I've invented a new style??? Cool! ;)

So does that mean my original notation was ok?

Scott

Guy Smiley

01-06-2006, 05:24 PM

Hah! Just to correct myself--one of my friends said he could find the beat, so I went and listened with him, and sure enough I could hear it with him. It is very hard to keep track of though :), and we kept losing it. It's played somewhat expressively.

I DO think that perhaps the triplets that you've notated are incorrect. When we listened, they don't come across as triplets at all. My friend thought they sounded like 16th notes played ad lib, but to me they sound more like an unmeasured trill. So, for example, bar 7 could notated as a 3/4 note trilled (half step trill--I forget exactly how to indicate that), followed by the 1/4 note.

I suppose it all depends on what you want though!

Jeff Turner

01-06-2006, 05:29 PM

So does that mean my original notation was ok?

Probably not. Your audio clip does sound improvisational in nature since there is no strict tempo that is followed. Notation for situations like this quite often a lot of musical cues are given. For instance the harp part should included some indication of what the flute is playing, so they can keep track of where they are in the piece.

I think that if this piece were to be analyzed, the meter would change frequently. It's really not in 4/4. Also the flute triplets that you have notated sound to me like they would be notated as a held note with a trill indication.

Notating something like Synergy would be considered advanced notation. If you really want to learn this, start simpler. Notate phrases that are in a strict tempo with a definate beat to follow.

Jeff

ewoh24

01-06-2006, 05:32 PM

Wow, thanks! So the time signature? Still 4/4, just perhaps written something like "Andante molto espressivo" or along those lines? I definitely want to get that elasticity across to the interpretor. A friend pointed out that the feel remined them of the Adagietto from Mahler's 5th. I suppose I can see it that way...the long notes stretched to absurdity etc...Do you see the similarity? Or do I have a very gracious friend??

ewoh24

01-06-2006, 05:37 PM

Just missed Jeff's response...Thank you. I've been analyzing a Haydn Quartet a day for about well...a day now. But that's my plan. Lots and lots to learn...but an enjoyable thing!

I think it's strange that I'm able to write something like Synergy but cannot notate it. That just is very odd to me. But that's the way it is. I just have to put my time in like everyone else and learn the mechanics. I'm very glad to have found this forum and such a helpful bunch of people.

Incidentally, is the piece pleasing to anyone?

bmtl

01-06-2006, 06:33 PM

[QUOTE=ewoh24]Hi Folks-

So here I am, 32 years of age and after 24 years rocking out, I decide that classical music is much more interesting! I've been an ear player for all of that time, never finding a need for reading music. So I never learned.

Hi Scott,

I think that the most important in your case, is to be helped by someone how have enought knowlege in writing music. First, you should perhaps record your music and make MIDI file with it, but you'll need to quantize and this may be the first problem you'll have.
I agree with you; overture is a good and simple soft that mat help you to do what you want.
Hoping this will help.
Regards
L

ewoh24

01-06-2006, 06:39 PM

I'm totally willing to pay a good teacher for instruction. If anyone out there is in the Boston area and can offer their services, contact me off-line.

chuckpuckett

01-13-2006, 03:00 PM

Scott,

I'm in worse shape than you: mid-fifties, and waited until I was quite late in life to start thinking that all the squigglies on the page were worth dealing with. "It's all about feel, man!"

I've had the devil of a time learning, but I will offer this potential advice, particularly if you can carry a tune at all. I joined my church choir, and have found that after 2-3 years (:o ), I can finally "hear" in my head what the rhythm is going to be, and even anticipate the melody with some fair degree of accuracy. And follow intelligently the accompaniment as the organist plays it. Not perfect, mind you, but the constant practice has really helped.

If your religious temperament won't allow doing choir (I'm Episcopalian, so it's no big deal ;) ), you could try a community chorus or similar group. In any case, I find it's a really good way to learn basic rhythmic and melodic conventions. Btw, I sing bass, so my lack of vocal ability is pretty much not noticed. :)

Chuck Puckett (Sibelius 4.1, Sonar 5, BIAB 2005, HP zd8000, XP Pro, 3Ghz/2GB)
www.puckettpublishing.com (http://www.puckettpublishing.com)
"I don't want to steal the show. I only want to borrow it for awhile."

ewoh24

01-26-2006, 12:41 PM

Chuck-

Thanks for the advice! I'm an Episcopalian too so I'm used to singing...alot. I think the Episcopal Church has a song for just about everything! Unfortunately, it's been a long time since I've set foot in one...but I like the idea of learning from choral scores...especially since another one of my current projects is attempting to score a String Quartet movement I wrote...again, nothing seems simple. I've linked the first page of it...I hate to ask, but could someone take a look at the first violin? This is how Logic and Overture notated it from the midi. I'm confused as to why the pizzicato notes get clumped together as chords when they are separate plucked notes? Is this the correct way to do this? Or am I breaking the software again?

Seriously, thanks for everyone's help in this thread. I believe I'm making small, but definite progress. I got the Complete Idiot's guide for Xmas...it's been very helpful!

http://homepage.mac.com/ewoh24/ScotTunes/FileSharing64.html

ewoh24

01-26-2006, 01:17 PM

I'm retarded...I think I figured it out...I set the Quantization to Quarter Notes...If I set it Eighth notes, it's correct.

Sorry for the trouble!

Guy Smiley

01-27-2006, 07:31 PM

Chuck-
This is how Logic and Overture notated it from the midi. I'm confused as to why the pizzicato notes get clumped together as chords when they are separate plucked notes?
http://homepage.mac.com/ewoh24/ScotTunes/FileSharing64.html

Are those the trills? I'll assume they are...Overture clumps my notes together like that whenever I play passages that are faster than the quantize setting. I think you'll probably have to manually correct those (using the "tr" notation).