Sonic Implants -- I want to love it but ..... opinions sought

[ed hamilton]

I am looking for "real user" opinions on the complete Sonic Implants lib.
I have listened to the demos and ... I am just not getting it.

Could this be a matter of the demo's not fully showcasing the libs.

These days we usually have the opposite problem where demo's are the BEST example of what a Lib can do.

So I am honestly looking for some input from Sonic Implants owners to help me "get" the sound of this lib.

I am currently pissed at VSL and looking at all alternatives for the funds I budgeted towards the Cube. Sonic Implants is on that short list.

Thanks in advance for you posts.

[ArsNova]

What is it that you're not getting?

I can't say that I'm a user but I have sat down and played through a bit of the library first hand.

Ars

[ed hamilton]

Wow - bit sensitive Craig?

Clearly you forget how many times I posted kudos for your work. (and PM'd you regarding "western duck").

My point is that when I compare demos of several libs from the same composer - (ie. you, Simon, etc.) - there are more moments that shout "sample library in use" in the SI demo's.
But people who's work and ears I respect rave about the lib and thus its on my very short list for next purchase.

As far as dissing VSL -
You can't possibly defending their complete abandonement of their loudly shouted claim that "you'll never have to pay for the same samples twice".
If I purchase the Cube standard I will indeed be paying full price for samples I already own.

So from this point forward I would appreciate not hearing from library endorsers.
Craig is an endorser of both VSL and SI for those that were not aware and I think its in spectaculary poor form for him to take a shot at me in this manner.

My interest in SI is sincere.
I am comparing demos from a few libs on a killer set of monitors.
My post here is an honest attempt to gain further input about a Lib that is not discussed often enough.
And I am simply afraid of spending a lot of money to end up disappointed. (we ALL know that feeling).
Since demos are all we have to go on i have to call it as I hear it.

Sharmys VSL demo's have less obvious "sample" moments than his SI ones. Apples to Apples comparison.

I would greatly appreciate any help from an SI owner who can share his feelings about it when compared to other libs in his arsenal.

Thanks much and sorry this thread took an ugly turn.

[artsoundz]

Ed, your 2 posts are entirely reasonable and respectful. I read them as sincerely questioning the SAMPLES not the composers.

[jc5]

Indeed, I happen to share Ed's reservations... particularly regarding the strings. I know that the majority of people here happen to love them... but I just never heard what they are hearing... I have played the strings myself a couple of times in past, and the first hand experience did nothing to change my perceptions...
As I've said before, I think the brass is the strongest part of the set (remeniscent of the SAM brass sound perhaps), and apparently the percussion is opulent (ie. just plain huge number of samples), though I'm not sure that I like the sound so much, in comparison to True Strike..

I'm not certain how much value the SI set would bring to a Pro Ed owner..

Though certainly (as has been already noted by others), what with VSL's rather big change in gear SI is in an interesting new position. One which I hope they will act upon with more new samples and more new advanced giga features (anything collaborative planned with SI for GS4? There should be. ;) )

[ed hamilton]

Craig - you are a class act. Always have been. That's why I was a bit stunned at your post.
But no harm no foul.

I just listened to "western duck" again --- to funny and TOO GOOD!

You truly have always stayed out of the the fray and I imagine that's a really hard thing to do. And any compliments I have ever sent you were sincere, deserved and based solely on your music (ie- no sucking up).

SI -
I was trying to coyly hint that maybe there are reasons that the demo's don't fully show off the lib (ie- you guys were working with beta versions).
I really did not intend to offend any composer as I too have a sore spot regarding critisism.
If you think critisism is hard in the forums .... try getting it from Jazztimes, jazzis and downbeat as I often do. (me bumm hurts!)

I am always open to the possibility that I am the one "not getting it". and am open to opinions that could enlighten my ears. But its funny how hard it is to put that into words especially in these forums were people are usually taking extreme positions about libs.
Rave - attack - defend. Seems to be the cycle.
I was doing none of the above. I'm just not knocked out by the demo's and I am open to the possiblity that I AM the one out to lunch.

My anger towards VSL has opened the door to looking at Libs I would not have considered otherwise since VSL would have had ALL my money.

SI complete, True Strike, qlso plat (i own gold) are all contenders and I REALLY would appreciate any and all opinions in weighing these options.

[artsoundz]

Class follows class.:)

[KC]

I am looking for "real user" opinions on the complete Sonic Implants lib.
I have listened to the demos and ... I am just not getting it.

Could this be a matter of the demo's not fully showcasing the libs.

These days we usually have the opposite problem where demo's are the BEST example of what a Lib can do.

So I am honestly looking for some input from Sonic Implants owners to help me "get" the sound of this lib.

I am currently pissed at VSL and looking at all alternatives for the funds I budgeted towards the Cube. Sonic Implants is on that short list.

Thanks in advance for you posts.

Hello Ed,

I just wanted to share my thoughts with you in regard to the new Sonic Implants Symphonic Collection. I know it's becoming increasingly difficult nowadays to distinguish and choose between the various full orchestra libraries available, so your question is a valid and pertinent one.

I've personally been using Sonic Implants products for several years. I incorporate them as part of my template in all of my work and consistently find them to be excellent. Aside from their various instrumental libraries such as Silk Road, Afro-Cuban Percussion etc., I have been a user of their String and Brass Collections. I recently obtained the new Symphonic Collection. As with their previous efforts, I found the new Collection to be extremely well sampled with terrific and consistent sound quality across all instruments.

As with the VSL, it offers a wealth of articulations in all departments, not to mention very playable and musically useful programming that makes terrific use of Gigastudio 3's various new technologies. The most impressive of these is SI's new legato technology, which is put to great use. The best example of this is their new Woodwinds Collection. To put it mildly, the woodwinds are absolutely fantastic. They sound rich, warm and present with just the right amount of built in ambience from the Sonic Temple they were recorded in. The "legato" patches are stunningly realistic and a pleasure to play, connecting flawlessly and employing a beautiful -- and subtle -- natural vibrato. The Collection also offers ensemble patches, which again are truly fantastic. All articulations are covered as are sound effects indiginous to each instrument.

The Percussion Collection is probably the most comprehensive collection yet assembled. Not only does it cover every manner of instrument, but it also provides an array of choices as to how those instruments were played. Again, the samples have the right amount of built in ambience and I've found that they work well in both subtle and aggressive musical settings. Indeed you can achieve a massive percussion section sound if you need to.

The String and Brass Collections are top of the list go-to choices in my opinion. The strings rank among the most playable and versatile available. The same goes for the brass. And with new programming such as round robin alternation, the libraries have plenty to offer along with their extensive wealth of articulations and effects. The SI Strings are also one of the very few to have sampled an actual second violin section, making for a more natural and realistic sound when working in sections. Their ensemble patches alone are worth the price of admission.

All the SI Collection patches work well in small and large ensemble settings, are extremely musical not suffering from the "sounds like a sample" sound, are very playable and provide all the necessary options (without overwhelming the user) required to achieve a convincing orchestral sound.

As far as the demos are concerned, I've personally found it difficult to be able to adequately showcase any product in a manner that fits everyone's individual writing style. With this in mind, it is quite possible that the demos you've heard, no matter how good, may not provide good examples of what you personally strive to achieve while employing your writing methods. Regardless, as with most new comprehensive orchestral collections, you'll find the SI Collection will contribute a great deal to achieving that sound by being versatile, comprehensive and most important to a sample library -- musical.

I will posting my new Symphonic Collection demos for Sonic Implants very soon. Perhaps they may help you further to make a decision about this wonderful library...

Hope this helps...

Best wishes,

Kaveh Cohen

www.kavehcohen.com

[Nayi]

Kaveh that's great news!

Will the demos feature all the SI sections? I would really want to see in action some of the new giga3 functionalities like the legato on all the sections.

[ed hamilton]

Kaveh,

Thanks so much for the detailed post.
Full of usefull info.

I really look forward to your demos!

If I could ask one question though ... could you compare the amount of room tone (reverb) in the samples to say ... qlso gold and VSL? Those to libs are clearly at the far end of the spectrum. Were does SI fit in between those two?

It's hard to discern the amount of ambience built in as composers tend to add more verb to their mixes.

Thanks again for you detailed post!

[Bruce A. Richardson]

If I could ask one question though ... could you compare the amount of room tone (reverb) in the samples to say ... qlso gold and VSL? Those to libs are clearly at the far end of the spectrum. Were does SI fit in between those two?

The SI ambient content is closer to VSL than to the EastWest libraries. I would call it about 1/3 of the way between VSL and EW, if I were trying to just approximate where I'd put it on a plot.

I would echo Craig's comments about the demos. Demos totally suck. In reality, I am not sure that I know a single person who uses only one orchestral collection for everything. There is this difficult balancing act to achieve when you're making a demo for someone...you need to show off what a single library can do, and so there are times when you find yourself working with a sample that's not getting there, because it just doesn't fit that particular musical context.

NONE of them can fit every context. Not even VSL.

Where Sonic Implants libraries tend to excel, in my opinion, is in being able to sit at a keyboard, and play in a way that you would naturally. I'm speaking in the context of someone who can play piano, which I think describes you as well, if I'm recalling correctly. Your physical impulses are going to get you a good representation of what was in your mind.

I think that's why you'll find a lot of people saying that they load up Sonic Implants "ensembles" to rough out the bones of a piece. You have some very talented people at SI, starting with Jennifer, of course, and others of her staff (like Peter Drawbridge for one example) who are really hardcore designers with pedigrees. I've met Jennifer, Al, and Jennifer's mom Donna, who is also quite involved with the company, and to a person the thing they've had in common is that they're incredibly warm and down to earth. And I think that is a fair reflection of the product, too. It's simply a down to earth product that does a job well, and works.

My endorsement here is based upon the strings and brass. Both are as much go-to libraries in my work as VSL is. I find the two libraries to be very complementary, even though they're conceptually quite different. So, perhaps you might find yourself feeling the same way. I'd certainly encourage people check them out.

[KC]

Kaveh that's great news!

Will the demos feature all the SI sections? I would really want to see in action some of the new giga3 functionalities like the legato on all the sections.

Hi Nayi,

Yes, they will feature the entire Collection...

Best,

Kaveh

www.kavehcohenc.om

[KC]

Kaveh,

Thanks so much for the detailed post.
Full of usefull info.

I really look forward to your demos!

If I could ask one question though ... could you compare the amount of room tone (reverb) in the samples to say ... qlso gold and VSL? Those to libs are clearly at the far end of the spectrum. Were does SI fit in between those two?

It's hard to discern the amount of ambience built in as composers tend to add more verb to their mixes.

Thanks again for you detailed post!

Hello Ed,

I'm glad the post was of some use to you.

In regard to ambience, I completely concur with Bruce -- SI has less ambience than the Stage mics you find in the Gold Edition but more than the VSL which is very dry. Furthermore I send all the samples, regardless of the amount of built in ambience, through hardware reverb to somewhat "glue" all the various libraries together. This obviously comes down to a subjective choice and the type of sound you need to achieve. Since the SI ambience is not intrusive, you are more than able to achieve various ambient sounds and placements using software and hardware verbs in conjunction with the built in recorded ambience.

Best,

Kaveh

www.kavehcohen.com

[KC]

In reality, I am not sure that I know a single person who uses only one orchestral collection for everything. There is this difficult balancing act to achieve when you're making a demo for someone...you need to show off what a single library can do, and so there are times when you find yourself working with a sample that's not getting there, because it just doesn't fit that particular musical context.

NONE of them can fit every context. Not even VSL.

Where Sonic Implants libraries tend to excel, in my opinion, is in being able to sit at a keyboard, and play in a way that you would naturally. I'm speaking in the context of someone who can play piano, which I think describes you as well, if I'm recalling correctly. Your physical impulses are going to get you a good representation of what was in your mind.

Very true Bruce!

Best,

Kaveh

www.kavehcohen.com

[kid-surf]

Kaveh, I look forward to hearing your demos too. I always know I can count on you doing something I'll like.


I also feel that the SI strings are very good. I use the VSL/SI combo the most, Gold gets the least use in my collection, I just find it too big usually, and sort of sterile. Although It's pretty cool for some stuff.


Kaveh-- One question, are the strings in the orchestral package different in any way from the the other string collection? Is there different programing or something? Am I missing something by not being in GS3? (I'm pretty afraid of my PC's so I just leave them be --- but if I'm missing some key features by not being in GS3....)


Thanks!

BTW --- Ed, at a certain point I think you just need to come to terms with the fact that your actually using samples. I wish I could tell them how to play, you know what I mean?




Jay

[EricWatkins]

Kaveh, I just checked out your website. Could you comment on the strings I'm hearing upon opening your site. Those are just beautiful! Exactly the type of sound I'd like to achieve for that type of music. Cant wait to hear more of your stuff.

Eric

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Kaveh-- One question, are the strings in the orchestral package different in any way from the the other string collection? Is there different programing or something? Am I missing something by not being in GS3? (I'm pretty afraid of my PC's so I just leave them be --- but if I'm missing some key features by not being in GS3....)

Obviously, I'm not Kaveh, but I can detail out an answser for you.

It depends upon how you like to work, really. What GigaStudio 3.0 offers is a LOT more flexible way of working than 2.x, even if you don't use any of the new programming features.

The new programming features in 3.0 brought GigaStudio's MIDI/mapping capabilities into line with what VSL was offering in its performance series. Subsequent 3.x updates have actually been pouring new features into the application at a serious rate, but almost all of them are programming features that increase the number of control/behavioral options that can be used (by anyone, by the way, not just developers). They're things like different ways to approach the Round-Robin model (whether a specific note advances round robin for itself, or whether the entire keyboard advances the round-robin count...things like that).

Even using the previous version of Sonic Implants Symphonic Strings, for instance, you can now set up intelligent ways to alternate bow strokes within the GIG files by building new instruments into the GIGs, and saving them. You could build different alternation models for bowing, as an obvious example...like bowing "paradiddles" where you could program, say, d-u-d-d-u-d-u-u as a stroke sequence to get a particular sound.

In addition, there are just all kinds of ways to program the raw material to do musical things that can subsequently be used to inspire you, or to shortcut particular things you **personally** like to do musically.

I would call that the primary huge feature difference in GigaStudio 3.0. Behind that, GigaPulse is another really big deal, because the quality of convolution is excellent. The behavioral design potential of the convolver is pretty unlimited. Even if you just use it as a room or reverb generator, it can marry together disparate sounds without adding a lot of tail and mud.

The back end routing is a lot more flexible. You can lightpipe out a bunch of discrete channels, or write lots of discrete tracks to disk. There's nice EQ and compression built in, so you can get your tracks into the ballpark before you commit them.

So, those are the overall differences I'd say were of significance.

B.

[KC]

Kaveh, I look forward to hearing your demos too. I always know I can count on you doing something I'll like.

I also feel that the SI strings are very good. I use the VSL/SI combo the most, Gold gets the least use in my collection, I just find it too big usually, and sort of sterile. Although It's pretty cool for some stuff.

Kaveh-- One question, are the strings in the orchestral package different in any way from the the other string collection? Is there different programing or something? Am I missing something by not being in GS3? (I'm pretty afraid of my PC's so I just leave them be --- but if I'm missing some key features by not being in GS3....)

Thanks!

Jay

Hi Jay,

Thanks for the kind words...

Bruce covered many of the differences in his post. In a nutshell, these are 24bit samples vs. 16bit in GS2.5 which have banks of new programming added to the original banks of patches. Built in alternation and legato being the most prominent of the new programming features. I'll defer to SI for an explanation of more in depth differences as I haven't had the new Collection long.

I would say that it is very worthwhile to move to Giga 3, particularly if you're going to update to the SI Symphonic Collection.

Best,

Kaveh

www.kavehcohen.com

[KC]

Kaveh, I just checked out your website. Could you comment on the strings I'm hearing upon opening your site. Those are just beautiful! Exactly the type of sound I'd like to achieve for that type of music. Cant wait to hear more of your stuff.

Eric

Hello Eric,

Thank you for your compliments.

The string orchestra piece you mentioned was recorded with the City Of Prague Philharmonic. I did in fact use SI Strings to create a mockup prior to recording it live.

Best wishes,

Kaveh

www.kavehcohen.com

[kid-surf]

Thanks for the info guys! Very helpful.......

I guess I'll look into it. Hopefully they have some sort of cross grade for the strings.

While I'm asking --- are there any improvements using VSL in GS3? (feel free to be a brief as your time allows)


Thanks guys!