Can RME Multiface route outputs to inputs (internally)?

[PeterRoos]

Hi all,

If I install an RME Multiface in a PC running GigaStudio and Logic, would it be possible to use a number of stereo outs from GigaStudio and route them into the Logic audio mixer internally, without using external loopback cabling?

I have no experience (yet) with lightpipes. Maybe it is actually simple to pull back digital out into the RME?

TIA,

Peter

[Marsdy]

Hi Peter

As far as I can tell it is not possible to route outputs to inputs internally within the Hammerfall DSP Mixer. I looked in the manual and again I couldn\'t find any mention of this type of routing I\'m afraid.

You need to be very carefull routing outputs to inputs on the same device, especially digitally. It would be very easy to set up a digital clock feedback loop or a speaker destroying audio loop if you messed up some routing and connected an output to an input that was routed to the same output (I think that made sense!!!)

Dave Marsden
http://www.gameaudio.com (\"http://www.gameaudio.com\")
UK

[PeterRoos]

Hi Dave, thanks.

Yup, that\'s clear. A loopback trick is of course very risky.
I currently have my analog Echo card via an external mixer back into the input channels; as long as you don\'t mess with the soft mixer console, this works fine.
Doing this digitally is of course a completely different story...

Peter

[steve_t]

I have routed my Multiface and it works fine here with Cubase SX and Gigastudio.
I just used the little light pipe cable I got with it and connected it with the ADAT in to out.
Make sure the \"Clock Mode\" is set to Master.

[Marsdy]

Steve

I didn\'t mean to imply routing inputs to outputs won\'t work, I was just warning that if you are monitoring through the system, i.e. you can hear an input at an output in real time then you need to make sure you don\'t route the input to an output that is feeding the same input. This applies to audio and digital connectiions. The same applies to clock signals.

You\'d think there would be a Rewire type protocol for moving audio between Giga and other apps.

Dave Marsden
http://www.gameaudio.com (\"http://www.gameaudio.com\")
UK

[marcuspocus]

All this routing can be done quite easily in all creamware cards, in software... images/icons/cool.gif
Creamware rule... images/icons/grin.gif

[PeterRoos]

Hehe, nice, thanks for the reactions. Will check it out.

[Leon Willett]

STEVE,

I am soooooo interested in doing what you\'re doing, it would be really great if you could help me out a sec. It means putting native plugs on gigastudio tracks in real time! Could you share your computer specs with me?

I\'ve tried what you have accomplished, with NO success--clicks and pops everywhere when routing. I can slam against 160 polyphony all day with no clicks or anything when gigastudio is just going straight out of the Hamerfall (using logic just a midi sequencer). BUT if I have giga going out of ADAT 1 OUT, routed back into ADAT 1 IN (so logic\'s inputs can listen to giga\'s outputs) and logic is mixing all that and using only the main spdif output, I get clicks at anything over 60 voices poly.

Are you getting 160 voices back into logic from giga with no clicks?? what latency? Have you tweaked anything in particular (BIOS, the windows services...)?? It would be sooo great if you could help me out

I have the following specs:

ASUS P4B266-SE, intel 845d chipset
P4 2.0 GH
1 gig 266mhz DDR
two 80 gig dekstar HDs
RME Multiface

Thanks!!!

[PeterRoos]

Right on, Leon,

That was exactly my plan. Using ADAT Out routed to the ADAT In to record Gst on the same RME machine and then add 8 analogs In from my other PC, sending out on an analog Echo card.

Would this routing involve serious overhead?

[Leon Willett]

Hi peter

The cpu meter in logic is around 10 percent when I\'m doing this (the windows task manager reports 25%, and the gigastudio cpu meter says around 15%). This is when I\'m REALLY giving it over 160 voices (a BIG orchestral piece).

So NO, there isn\'t a big CPU impact. But there are clicks everywhere at high polyphony! So I think its a PCI issue. At high latencies, 23 ms, then about 140 voices is ok. (But this is unusable, as the overall latency is 46 ms--one buffer going out, one buffer coming back in, and you cant PLAY with that at all images/icons/frown.gif )

Steve_T seems to have managed it, so lets see what he\'s using images/icons/wink.gif

[marcuspocus]

Don\'t you have a way of routing GSIF driver output internally to Asio input? This way, you could monitor giga in Logic? I thought RME is doing this with their mixer? Am i wrong?

Like i said in previous post, i\'m doing this everyday in all creamware cards without ANY latency at all. I route 32giga channels to 32 asio channels so i can monitor & record all or any of them and apply realtime effects on all or any of them in Logic. So,I guess rme is also able to do this, they are also using a DSP for mixing everything.

[PeterRoos]

I\'d like to have exactly that solution (my original question), keeping the digital output from Gst within the machine and routing it to Logic. If that\'s possible, I will go for the RME Multiface. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[Leon Willett]

Hey, marcuspocus!

What creamware card allows this 32 channel routing?? Is it all on the same computer? What computer do you have (please list specs: mobo, cpu, etc)?

Thanks for the info, if you have the time!

Leon

[Chadwick]

Leon, it\'s the Creamware Pulsar card (Pulsar 2).

It\'s a soundcard whose mission in life is to provide a CPU-relieving DSP environment for soft synths, as well as I/O for the PC.

It\'s been on the scene a while (long before VSTIs).

Basically you get a desktop-like environment with lots of sources and destinations to choose from. You also get a range of devices, like mixers, fx, synths.

They have a \'Big Mixer\' which pretty closely parallels the facilities on a nice console, but in software. You even have talkback routing images/icons/smile.gif

There is some very nice stuff made for the card, and it\'s very quiet. There are quite a few free third party modules as well.

When it came out, I don\'t think anything could touch it, but VST, the UAD and Powercore have probably put a dent in its sales. Still, it\'s nice to have the flexible routing and open ended design.

Creamware make a few different hardware combos to suit different needs. The heart of the system is a PCI card with a variable number of SHARK processors on board, but you can get DSP only boards with no I/O, DSP expansion boards, DSP boards with lots of I/O and 15 sharks - you name it.

You can check out more detail here.
http://www.creamware.de/en/products/sfp/pulsar/highlights.asp (\"http://www.creamware.de/en/products/sfp/pulsar/highlights.asp\")

Wallet warning! If you get into this setup be aware that you will begin to hanker after both PCI bandwidth and shark processors images/icons/smile.gif

[marcuspocus]

The Creamware Luna permit all of this also, and cost alot less. Obviously with less polyphony for synths, but we\'re into Giga sampler anyway?!

And can add very very good and nice effects to your giga setup, in real times.

I think you can find a Luna for 330€ or 350US$.

(btw, creamware still beats UAD and powercore, both of them have big latency problem, Creamware still as 0ms latency internaly, better than o2R!)

[Simon Ravn]

marcus, are you some sales representive of Creamware??? As much as I love my two Pulsar cards, their big strength is NOT efx plugins. I\'d rather use some freebie VST plugin that a CW one. For example, if you enable XTC mode, your sequencer will now take a lot longer to boot... zzzzzz I can\'t wait for that. Also, it will tend to make the sequencer more unstable, when you use the plugins. And no, Creamware don\'t really have lower latencies than UAD/Powercore - the thing is, that the CW card acts as both IO card and plugin card, so you won\'t get double the latency, as you will when using UAD/Powercore and another card for IO. Having said that, I think the power and quality of those two cards are a lot more important in the big puzzle. Creamware plugins simply can\'t compete with TC/UAD ones, and the CW cards are hopelessly underpowered compared to TC/UAD. What can you run on a Pulsar 2 with 6 DSP\'s - 3 or 4 masterverbs? A verb which has the quality of a low-end native VST plug-in.

Please stop promoting Pulsar/Scope as the answer to everything. It is GREAT as a mixing/IO/synth board, but that\'s it.

[marcuspocus]

No i\'m no creamware rep\'s. Once and for all.

And i don\'t aggree with you on quality of efx plugins. Have you really compared UAD compressor and Vinco which is a 1:1 model of a 1176/LA2A ?

Have you tried the Optimaster mastering comp? PowerCore is far from that quality.

As for Masterverb, i run 9 of them + mixer + ios in my 7dsp setup. And, who need 9 verbs? Don\'t AUX are created for this purpose?

Also, UAD & powercore don\'t have ANY developper\'s cuz they specificaly prevent people from developping so they can \'keep quality in their own hands\' (you can read that on their site BTW). Also Masterverb is the \'free\' verbs that come with the software, have you tried Paul Tanti\'s verbs? He is very well know for his verbs. He has a free verbs you can download which is called PT96K-free, and this is the best verbs i tried so far... Most flexible and \'realistic\' one, even compare to most of the hardware verbs i worked with. If you prefer, there\'s still SonicTimeWork which is getting out a bunch of mastering devices at the moment. And you\'re talking about freebees... Have you had a check lately on www.planetz.com? (\"http://www.planetz.com?\") There is about 500 free devices there, most of them are done by real passionates, and are FAR MORE superior than any VST i ever tried. Period! And for synth quality, VST isn\'t even in the game. I\'m sorry but have a close listen to even Ni synths. Reaktor sound weak compare to the modular of cw. FM7 is more \'in the game\' i would say, but pro52? What a joke! Have you listened to John Bowen Prophet? He is the original ingeneer that has make this synth a legend, he has done it from creamware platform also. Have you listen or even tried the Minimax? NO other so called minimoog emulation can say that they are emulation now that minimax exist, at best they are \'wannabe\'. This is again a 1:1 physical modeling of the real thing, down to the point they mesured electrical properties of all of the components of a real monimoog to reproduce it perfectly.

And XTC mode, well i agree that it\'s pretty weak. Alot like UAD or powercore for example. Add latency etc. But they do this to attract people that are already using those things. And if you use creamware like you should (not in XTC mode) you\'ll have to accept that it has NO latency whatsoever. Latency is SUB 1ms in ALL cw devices, ASIO latency (which is for sequencer audio or plugin like VST) is at 3ms-24bits/44.1khz actually in my PC, running 32 asio input + 32 gsif input. Integrating external hardware is a breeze. NO other card does it now... Not even those much praised RME, and even less using a delta 1010 for example. Which btw, i had before and sold cheap cuz it is not giving me ANY added value, higher latency, and less stability of the asio driver.

And, you \'re saying that i sound like a cw rep\'s? Well have a look at this forum. Every question about soundcards always end up with an \'almighty knowledgable person\' (which he probably his btw! Some very experienced people here!) that say the answer the all question is delta1010. Have a look, are they sales rep for that? Most of the population of this board have delta cards. And most of the problem they are talking about are related to this card. Obviously, since this is what most of them use. Well, i DID answer a question is this thread, and i DID provide a solution to the question the guy was asking. If he doesn\'t like cw card, it is his choice, he\'ll choose something else, and will not be able to have what he asked for. Which was routing gsif output to asio input internaly. Again, no other card do it like this. And for the \'long times to boot\', Maybe it is because you have alot of plugin that come with this xtc mode images/icons/wink.gif hein? Also, have you read the manual? Their is some special setting for Logic, and some for Cubase for examples. My setup start very quickly, no waiting at all.

To end this message, i would say, if you don\'t like my messages, don\'t read them. For me, i will try to restrain myself of \'promoting cw\' like you said, but since i really love my card, and that i feel i\'m doing all that i can to help peoples, in many other aspect than this \'soundcard thing\' i will still suggest this card to any other guy how\'s asking for some features he cannot get elsewhere.

I\'m an amateur, a music passionate, i\'m for tolerance and peace. So please don\'t call me a \'sales rep\' cuz almost everybody here is a rep for their stuff, is it not a developers board here? Well i develop giga stuff for myself using a cw board. And those cards are the greatest thing that happened in my studio.

So for people who have questions about cw stuff, since some don\'t like it here, please go to http://www.planetz.com/forums (\"http://www.planetz.com/forums\") to ask questions, where a bunch of pasionnated guy over there, and we\'ll be happy to shed some light on any/all your cw questions.

BTW, the comunity at planetz is so cool, that we organise contest pretty often just for fun, some users even give plugins as prizes that they paid from their own pocket cuz they are really dedicated to it.

Thanks.

[Simon Ravn]

[snip... a long rant.... snip].

Well well... First of all - you may get 3ms latency. But I certainly dont. I have to be around 7-11ms to get solid performance. No I haven\'t tested the Scope plugins in question - but I don\'t expect any pluging from Creamware to get anywhere above sub-par. It would simply be too unbelievable.

And then we haven\'t even talked about the inredibly slow GUI that Scope uses - users with a configuration slower than a 2ghz P4 with a fast gfx card should avoid Scope, unless they just want to use it as a mixer without much userinteraction. Seems like this GUI was programmed in Microsoft Basic...

It\'s true that UAD has shut out 3rd party developers, and I respect that - it would\'ve been NICE to have 3rd parties there, but if not - OK with me, as long as they bring out quality plugins regularly - and they have been so far. If their new reverb is kick*ss, I will definitely buy an UAD-1. On the other hand, Powercore DO have 3rd parties developing for it, contrary to what you said. Waldorf, Access, Sony, possibly Antares and more are working on plugins for Powercore - Waldorf and Sony already have their first one out.

About synths I agree - Scope synths generally sound much better than VST synths. I haven\'t been using them a lot lately though, since the GUI has been so terrible to work with until I got the new machine. Also, the lack of DSP power is showing. I have a setup with a mixer, 3 ADAT interfaces, GSIF, one masterverb and EQ on 2 channels - this is eating almost half of my 10 DSP\'s! Not much left for synths. I can get about 3 voices in Prophet Plus, and my cards are used up. Ridiculous.

[Leon Willett]

where can I get a luna 2 for 330???

[marcuspocus]

Originally posted by Leon Willett:
where can I get a luna 2 for 330???<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">http://www.infinitevortex.com/default.asp?page=soundcards (\"http://www.infinitevortex.com/default.asp?page=soundcards\")

If you find better price, they\'ll match it or better.