Avoiding Portamenti

[joaz]

I wondered what is the best way of avoiding Potamenti(Shifts), when you want a smooth legato.
The passage I am working on, has low expression values (cc#11), and I want low velocity values whenever possible.
Sometimes to avoid portamento, I have to go from a velocity of 20 to a velocity of 85/90, but this does not sound very smooth.
Also does the velocity-off have any bearing on the outcome.?
I love the portamento effect on this instrument, it is very lifelike, but I wish I could have a little more control over it's use.
regards

[Giorgio Tommasini]

Joaz,

The Stradivari Violin has been programmed to yield portamento/legato on note overlaps. The portamento rate is dependent both on overlapped note-on velocity and note intervals. The velocity/portamento rate function approximates a modified hyperbola, in that it becomes flat at velocities around 90-100. At these velocities, no portamento occurs, and pure legato takes over. Conversely, the steep portion of the hyperbola allows for a very wide range of portamento rate on low velocities.

Please note that on note overlaps, note-on velocity exclusively affects the portamento rate. It has no effect on the dynamics, timbre etc.
Hence, there is no need of using low velocities if pure legato is what is needed.

Giorgio

[joaz]

.
Hence, there is no need of using low velocities if pure legato is what is needed.

Giorgio
Thank you Giorgio, all is now clear.The problem was the passage lacked overlapping notes.
With this help, I can now control the portamento perfectly. And I admire the programming, because you can have a very small portamento, or a huge romantic swoop.
regards

[ZeroZero]

I am trying to understand the difference between portamento and legato. Isn't it the same thing? I (think) I understand that portamento is usually used to describe larger slurs between notes of larger pitch difference?
I dont know what this sentence means:

"The velocity/portamento rate function approximates a modified hyperbola, in that it becomes flat at velocities around 90-100."

What is a modified hyperbola?

Any help please

Zero

[Giorgio Tommasini]

Zero,

There is indeed a substantial difference between portamento and legato, both in real life, and in the way these transitions have been implemented in the Stradivari.

This is however reserved information, and I very much regret not to be able to disclose it. :)

By a modified hyperbola I meant the sum of several functions, leading to a non-asymptotic, nearly horizontal segment, for note-on velocities in the range 90-127. This essentially means that the duration of the legato transition will be affected only slightly by velocities above 90.

Giorgio

[Tovan]

How do we know when two notes are overlapping instead of it being polyphonic? In the music I have, note durations do notcross eachother but there is minor chords being played ... all note velocities are at 100 and still portamenti occures ...

[ZeroZero]

Dear Giorgio,
"By a modified hyperbola I meant the sum of several functions, leading to a non-asymptotic, nearly horizontal segment, for note-on velocities in the range 90-127. "

Duuhhh!!! and I am a maths teacher!

I do understand that in real playing there is a world of difference between a portamento and legato, but in Virtual world surely both are the morphing between two tones?

Liked your answer though it got my other brain cell functioning. ;)

[joaz]

I am trying to understand the difference between portamento and legato. Isn't it the same thing?
Any help please

Zero

Imagine a violin playing a C rising to an F (8ve above middle C, played on the A string)
The violinist puts his 1st finger down , smoothly draws the bow, then puts his little finger down. That is Legato.

The violinist puts his 1st finger down , smoothly draws the bow, then slides the first finger up to an F. that is Portamento. Sometimes called a shift or slide.

2 different effects. 2 different sounds.

hope that helps.
regards Joe

[Tovan]

um... I trimmed the durations of the notes, seperating them even just by 1 unit, and I looked through the event lists in Fabio's Midi Version of the Bach Sonata ... It looked ... very very very very very ... complicated.

I just tested several things ... sigh, even with the trimming the skipping still occures tho the port is diminishing.

[ZeroZero]

Joaz Yes that helped, I can understand the difference now in real violins.

[Emperor]

Mr. Giorgio,
Why don't you add a key switch for portamento with interval control? For very fast slide between two notes your instrument is not playing complete portamento. Secondly, the player is free to slide to the second note in any velocity. There are many pieces of music that needs this playing technique, and this is an example:

http://www.mis-soft.com/Music/violin.wav

You cannot get it with Stradivari solo violin.

[nikolas]

How do we know when two notes are overlapping instead of it being polyphonic? In the music I have, note durations do notcross eachother but there is minor chords being played ... all note velocities are at 100 and still portamenti occures ...
without having tried extenvisle the Stradi, I can speak with much (not extreme though) confidence: find a work around! :D

In this case: Just have 2 instances of Kontakt player and the strad. You will elliminate all problems.

Desclaimer: I've not tried it. This is a guess, but seems reasonable...

[Emperor]

They put 20ms maximum interval between two notes to be considered overlapped(User's Manual page 34). If you want to achieve legato portamento effect you need at least 20 mili seconds and this is my point here, you cannot get poratameto unless you wait 20ms between notes.

This approach is good for slow motion(like the vedio demo) but not for fast playing.

I hope Mr. Giorgio understand me now.
We need two keyswitchs:
1. Legato/ portamento in mono mode, interval = 0ms, velocity is ignored.
2. Full poly mode without Legato/ portamento.

Thanks and Regards.

[Bosco Adama]

We need two keyswitchs:
1. Legato/ portamento in mono mode, interval = 0ms, velocity is ignored.
2. Full poly mode without Legato/ portamento.

I agree! We need more control.

[Emperor]

I think we should an answer from Mr. Garritan or Mr. Gorgio by now!

[Giorgio Tommasini]

Emperor, Bosco Adama,

Thanks for your feedback and proposals.

In the past, several suggestions from our customers were found to be theoretically sound and technically feasible. Some were actually adopted in the recent releases of the Stradivari and the Gofriller.
And we are indeed very grateful to this responsive and constructive community. :)

Please note, however, that only Gary Garritan is responsible for all marketing strategies concerning the Solo Strings Series, including updates, upgrades and new releases.

Hence, all requests concerning modifications of these instruments should be more appropriately addressed to him.

Sincerely,

Giorgio

[Emperor]

Mr. Garry Garritan, please share the discussion with us.
Thanks

[rbowser-]

I'm not sure why this is the case, but I had the Strad doing everything I wanted it to in a very short term when I first tried it out. Portamento with low velocities, legato with portamento via overlapping notes and higher velocities. Automatic polyphonic playing when I need two notes at the same time. So, I'm never quite sure why people are having difficulties--I try to follow the posts, but am never positive what they're doing differently.

Tovan, I couldn't tell by your later post if you'd cleared this up for yourself - you earlier said:

"...How do we know when two notes are overlapping instead of it being polyphonic? In the music I have, note durations do notcross eachother but there is minor chords being played ... all note velocities are at 100 and still portamenti occures ..."

In whatever software you're using, there must be some version of The Piano Roll View--That's the view where you can quickly and easily see the length of all notes. If you've played a passage where you intended to have the notes slightly overlapping, you can quickly see in this view if they really do overlap or not--and you can quickly change their lengths as needed.

The Strad is programmed so that when you're not playing two notes simultaneously, it's in monophonic mode--there's no danger of it playing those overlaps polyphonically.

Portamento still occurs in the example you gave, because of the gaps. If there are gaps, then lower velocities are going to cause the port. And of course, editing all velocities in a Strad MIDI track is essential to control the port exactly as you want.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[Haydn]

Randy,

I'm not sure why folks have a hard time either. I had to learn the instrument really quickly at NAMM the first year it was shown. At that time it was using multiple programs to work and was before it was programmed for Kontakt 2. It still worked basically the same then but I had absolutely no documentation on how it worked. Wasn't quite sure what was causing portamento and legato to work. Figured out what was going on within about 15 minutes of playing around with it after setting up the master keyboard controllers.

Then I had to give demos of it after this short time. I remember showing how it worked to Jordan Rudess (Dream Theater keyboardist). He had it singing in no time with just a quick explanation.

The latest version is much easier to play than the early prototype we showed at NAMM that year.

Jim

[Emperor]

Please try this piece of music using Strad violin in real time.

http://www.mis-soft.com/Music/violin.wav
I played it using solo violin from GPO with portamento script.

We ordered this product because it is real time instrument and it do the job 99% incredibley without any programming.

I hope Mr. Garritan will listen to us and implement our proposal, it could be done in a minute as follows:

1. Modify the script by adding a knob
declare ui_knob $Note_1 (0,100,1)
$Note_1 := 20
move_control ($Note_1,2,1)
set_text ($Note_1,"Poly mode timeout")

2. Modify the script to read the legato detection interval from the knob value rather than making it constantly 20ms.

3.Modify the script by adding a button:
declare ui_button $on_1
set_text ($on_1,"Ignore Velocity")
move_control ($on_1,2,3)

4.Ignore the velocity value that activates the portamento mode if that button is on.


That is it.

Thanks.

[rbowser-]

Hello, Emperor

With all due respect, I believe that what you think needs fixing in the Strad's programming, and your offered "fix" are both due to not understanding how the instrument already will do everything you need as it's already designed.

As said earlier in this thread, I'm not sure why people have trouble with it, but controlling the velocities so you can have a variety of non-portamento and portamento events of every description are possible exactly as explained in the manual, and shown in the video tutorials. Legato is extremely accessible, even played in real time.

IMHO, the Strad is not broken and needs no fixing. The fact that I and many users get it to do everything we want, and get those results rather easily is all the proof needed to show that the programming is solid and works.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[Garritan]

Mr. Garry Garritan, please share the discussion with us.
ThanksEmperor,

If this is something that is needed than we can consider modifications. But some have pointed out that what you propose may be able to be done with existing programming. Let's determine that for sure and then consider modificiations if needed.

Best,

Gary

[Emperor]

Thank you Mr. Gary, again just listen to the file I attached earlier and mimic that in real time not programming.

I love this instrument and I would like to get the most out of it.

All the best.

[Garritan]

http://www.mis-soft.com/Music/violin.wav

You cannot get it with Stradivari solo violin.
See if this is what you are looking for. Please listen to Stefano's version, made in just a couple of minutes.

http://www.garritan.com/Strad/Violin1407072.wav

Here's the midi file for you to try:

http://www.garritan.com/Strad/Violin1407072.mid

Thanks to Stefano and Giorgio for supplying this.

Gary Garritan

[Emperor]

Thanks Gary, Stefano and Giorgio:heart:

This exactly the style of playing I am looking for. Please tell me, this done by programming or real time playing? I tried the real time playing again without success. If programming is required, please give us some hints, I am using Sonar 6.2 PE.

However, I am a hoppyist not a professional, if you are busy please forget it.

Your support is perfect.
Thanx.

[rbowser-]

Hello again, Emperor

Maybe Gary, Stefano or Giorgio will have time to reply, and I know they like all of their customers to be happy, but meanwhile I think it would really be worth your while to download that little MIDI file included with the audio sample. It's all the data you need to analyze to see how that recording was done, since that's the only data which was driving the Strad for that recording.

I'm glad you found the sample useful - It's really what can be done with The Strad with not very much fuss. --Load the MIDI file in Sonar and take a look. You'll see!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[Uli Reuter]

Hello,

I already wrote this in

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51365&page=2

but let me state here, too, that I am also unhappy with the way of playing simple lyrical legato lines without strong attacks *and* without long transitional slides. (Just as a violinist who stays in the same playing position)
To do this you have to change velocities permanently, and in a very unmusical, unintuitive way. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Of course you can program everything or edit your midi recording. But why not provide a version that allows simple, pure playing for people who prefer that as a starting point?

As long as so many of Kontakt's parameters are locked, it would be fair to provide customized variations like in this case.

Best greetings Uli

[Emperor]

I would like to apologize for Mr. Garry and the the Stradivari team for the time I wasted for them in this forum.

The Stradivari is great and the real time palyability is 100%. My problem that the hardware was not sufficient(PC Pentium IV, 2.8 Ghz and 1.5 GB Ram, M-Audio FW 410), also I was using Sonar 6 PE.

Now I shifted to Mac Pro Quad core 2.6Ghz and 3GB Ram, the Stadivari gives me very sleek performance in all styles of playing.

I am still waiting for the micro tuning script, I would like to have the ability to tune notes to quarter tone(Arabic scale).

Thanks a lot for the great product.