A Midi-Mockup-Real Orchestra Performance - A Must See!

[Garritan]

Last year, Kentaro Sato (Ken-P) submitted his composition "Wings of Dreams" which was selected as one of the top winners in the GPO Orchestration Competition.

Ken-P's prize was to have his work performed in concert by the Moravian Philharmonic orchestra and broadcast live, and then to have the work professionally recorded with the orchestra. The performance was a success and was broadcast over the internet and a video and recording was made.
DPDan decided to take the video and work his magic. Ken-P recently posted the MIDI file on the GPO forum and DPDan has taken the Midi file and synchronized it to the video of the live performance of Ken-P's GPO competition piece. What you see is a real orchestra playing and what you hear is a synchronized MIDI-mock-up using GPO. An amazing job!

You should watch this video for several reasons: 1) it is an incredibly beautiful work Ken-P has composed, 2) the mock-up and synchronization DPDan did is incredible, and 3) to my knowledge, nothing like this has been done before.

Here is a link to the Windows Media video: (It's a 26 MB file and worth seeing).

Wings of Dreams - by Kentaro Sato (http://www.garritan.com/mp3/WingsOfDreams-KentaroSato.wmv)
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/WingsOfDreams-KentaroSato.wmv

Here is a link to the Quicktime Movie: (It's a 52 MB file and worth seeing).

Wings of Dreams - by Kentaro Sato (http://www.garritan.com/mp3/WingsOfDreams-KentaroSato.mov)
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/WingsOfDreams-KentaroSato.mov

*NOTE*Please download the quicktime movie totally before you try to play it.Here is a link to the free download of the most recent Quicktime 7 for MAC: http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/mac.html
Here is the Quicktime 7 download for Windows: http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/win.html

DPDan created a conductor track in DP in order to sync the midi file to the video. Here are some Digital Performer screenshots showing DPDan's digital workspace:


http://www.garritan.com/pictures/DPDan-KenP2.jpg


http://www.garritan.com/pictures/DPDan-KenP1.jpg


I really like Ken-P's inspiring music and I hope you enjoy it too. Thank you Ken-P for such a beautiful composition and thank you Dan for doing this unique synchronization.

Please take some time to experience what Ken-P and DPDan has done.
Enjoy!

Gary Garritan

[Jerry W.]

Sweet, what can I say?

My wife Allison didn't realize this was GPO until I told her her after watching it twice. Dan did such a good job. Amazing!!! Ken's music is so beautiful. And Dan is a wizard.

(bowing humbly) Dan, you DA MAN!!

:)
Jerry

[JonFairhurst]

Great job by all.

BTW, the trumpet player at 3:57 to 4:05 is classic!

-JF

[etLux]

Dang, still another .mov!

Just mentioned in another thread my machine upchucks on QT... apparently due to a conflict with a crucial IDE... would love to see some of these flicks!

Any .wmv version?

David.
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[Craig Reeves]

This awesome! I've always loved this song!

[Karl Garrett]

First I want to tell Ken what a really sweet piece this is. It is one of these rare pieces that I can truly say makes my heart sing.

Now as for Dan, well, I always kid him about his ears, but I have to admit that there is a good bit of genius in that head as well as those incredible ears.

There is one more factor that makes this work so great, and that is Digital Performer. What you are listening too when you hear this piece is the incredible control that DP gives you on your production.

Dan will be the first to tell you that, although time consuming to some extent, sinking a midi file to an audio file in DP is almost a piece of cake. If you can hear the subtle tempo changes, which obviously Dan can, it is a breeze to match DP's tempo changes in the Conductor track to even the most complex changes. The tools are transparent. It would have been five times harder to pull this off in any other DAW that I have seen.

Oh well, shell I mention this little gem of a library called GPO?

It is truly an honor to call Dan a dear friend. Yah, and his little dog too. :D

[DPDAN]

It is truly an honor to call Dan a dear friend. Yah, and his little dog too. :D

Karl, you are so kind :)

Thank you everyone, I am still trying to find someone to convert this to wmv.


Dan

[Tom Hopkins]

I got to see some of this at NAMM but the noise of the show made it impossible to judge the quality of the work (not that I had any doubt since it came from Dan.) Now that I've been able to hear this in a quiet environment I don't mind admitting that if I had encountered this video without foreknowledge of the substitution I probably would have accepted it as genuine. Masterful mixing and sync.

Tom

[ChrisHurn]

WOW. This is incredible. Fantastic piece, Ken-P - and great job DPDAN, this is really, really good. I haven't heard this piece before...awesome job! I love GPO.

-Chris

[DPDAN]

Thank you Chris.
I am so happy that you have now been introduced to Ken's writing, it is a very emotional piece for me, I still don't know why, but it is. Thank you for viewing it!

Tom, what can I say? To have a compliment like this from you is such an honor. I am so humbled.

I am not trying to turn this into a mutual admiration society meeting, but if it weren't for your experience and sensative musical abilities, GPO and all of these libraries of Gary's would not be as real as they are. I think Gary knows what he has in you :) I just wish more people would realize how real little ol' GPO can be.

Thank you again for listening.

I'll say it again, a tremendous thanks goes to Kentaro,
he really deserves to make it big.

Thank you Tom for all you do!

Dan

[LouisD]

Dan,

This is a fine piece of work you did with such beautiful and inspiring music! I too bow down in admiration of you talent and skills.

[mixolydian]

Always a pleasure!

[88fingers]

Spectacular on both ends. Congrats guys. Ken-p is quite the writer.

[etLux]

Karl, you are so kind :)

Thank you everyone, I am still trying to find someone to convert this to wmv.


Dan

PAGING: DPDAN

Hey Dan,

After some considerable Binking, Smackering, smooshing, tinkering, dickering and... gosh the fool thing was stubborn... I managed to get this converted into a fairly good .WMV.

You want it?


Best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[DPDAN]

Louis, mixo, Neo, 88
who do I appreciate? :D

ALL OF YOU!
Thank you so much for listening.

David,
Thank you, you have email :)

Dan

[Styxx]

It must be nice ... :o

[DPDAN]

Styxx, you should be receiving a DVD in the mail soon.
play it on your home stereo DVD player with the TV not the computer, unless your computer screen and speakers are better than your home theatre stuff. :confused:
Make sure all the surround crap is turned off :)

Dan

[myndthegap]

This is cool! Great job to DpDan and Ken-p. I would love to see some of Ken-P's midi files to study technique. I looked around the forum but must have missed it. Anybody know where I can find it? Thanks.

[DPDAN]

I would love to see some of Ken-P's midi files to study technique. I looked around the forum but must have missed it. Anybody know where I can find it? Thanks.

Hi myndthegap, I did a search for wings of dreams midi ... :)

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41499&highlight=wings+dreams+midi (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41499&highlight=wings+dreams+midi)

dpDan

[Styxx]

Styxx, you should be receiving a DVD in the mail soon.
play it on your home stereo DVD player with the TV not the computer, unless your computer screen and speakers are better than your home theatre stuff. :confused:
Make sure all the surround crap is turned off :)

Dan Wow, that's awfull ... ly nice of you DAN! :D

[DPDAN]

happy DVD'in
:)

[DPDAN]

Gary will be posting the .wmv version shortly.

A big huge thank you to our mighty Etlux (David) for figuring out how to convert the Quicktime movie to a windows media version for all to enjoy!

Thank you David!!!
you da dood :)

Dan

[etLux]

Gary will be posting the .wmv version shortly.

A big huge thank you to our mighty Etlux (David) for figuring out how to convert the Quicktime movie to a windows media version for all to enjoy!

Thank you David!!!
you da dood :)

Dan
Welcome, of course, Dan. The lacerations from the bullwhip are healing nicely, by the way.

Seriously, if ol' Golden Ears hadn't stepped in, that .wmv would've come out sounding like a bad pocket radio... lol. Amazingly, he can call out the conversion bit rate by nothing more than hearing the file.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[Garritan]

Gary will be posting the .wmv version shortly.

A big huge thank you to our mighty Etlux (David) for figuring out how to convert the Quicktime movie to a windows media version for all to enjoy!

Thank you David!!!
you da dood :)

Dan

Here is a link to the Windows Media (wma) video: (It's a 26 MB file and worth seeing).

Wings of Dreams - by Kentaro Sato (http://www.garritan.com/mp3/WingsOfDreams-KentaroSato.wmv)
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/WingsOfDreams-KentaroSato.wmv

Thanks to the mighty David (EtLux) and DPDan for making this happen!

Gary Garritan

[Joseph Burrell]

Thanks for the Windows Media version.

I'm very glad this came up as I got to hear again what perhaps is the most beautiful music that has ever graced Northern Sounds, no matter the library used (that doesn't matter as much to me as the end result.)

Wings of Dreams is a testament to what powerful composition skills will allow someone to accomplish. I can see this piece of music elevated to legendary status at some point. Its just masterful.

Excellent video work Dan. Golden Ears indeed.;)

[DPDAN]

oh WOW Joseph, I'm teary eyed,

thank you so much for your amazing words, and thank you Gary for updating this topic :)
Dan

[SeanHannifin]

I can't stop watching it!

Astounding. :)

[thesoundsmith]

Absolutely incredible! I never would suspect. Beautiful composition, so tender, and Dan that's an amazing sync job, as near to perfect as I've seen, and the orchestra is extraordinary. You captured every nuance of their performance; I wonder if their mix (or their performance) was anywhere near as good... :D

[DPDAN]

Sean, I know what you mean, I just love Ken's writing and arranging of this particular piece. The way the instruments are feathered in and out of each other is so cool. Thank you Sean!

David, thank you for listening, you always have such nice words.

dpDan :)

[Rhap2]

To DPDAN and Ken-P:

I have FOUR WORDS to describe this combined effort:

MAGNIFICENT MUSIC--MASTERFUL MIXING.

You are both masters in your chosen creative field. It's just beautiful and I've never seen this done before. WOW, are we movin' to the upper part of town or what?

Jack

[Hardy Heern]

Well! Well! Well! My heartiest congratulations on this innovative endeavour!:)

Ken-P........Take a bow!! DPDan.......take a bow!!! GPO take a bow!!!!

A great composition and a great MIDI exposition and a great value orchestral library.

Not for the first time, DPDan has shown that a (relatively) humble sample library can be made to sing.....if the talent and ability is there.

Well done everyone........especially Dan.:)

Frank

[geronimo001]

I-AM-STUN!!!, somehow i've always tough that GPO was cheaper for some reason:confused: , i gess i didn't listen to the right demo, but now i realyze i was way off:eek: . Very impressive work by Mr. Sato, Mr. Garritan, and Dan.

I LOVED IT, every aspect of it......great...ect......

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Karl, you are so kind :)

Thank you everyone, I am still trying to find someone to convert this to wmv.


Dan

Put it on a server for me, Dan, and point me to it. I'll convert it for you and send you a link.

Best regards,
Bruce

edit: never mind...I see someone already did it for you.

[Garritan]

Well! Well! Well! My heartiest congratulations on this innovative endeavour!:)

Ken-P........Take a bow!!
http://www.garritan.com/pictures/opera_man_bowing.gif




DPDan.......take a bow!!!
http://www.garritan.com/pictures/mab_bowing.gif






GPO take a bow!!!!
http://www.garritan.com/pictures/acting_shy.gif



Thanks Hardy!

[Twinset]

I thoroughly enjoyed this - super work by both.

Just one thing, it just makes me realise how much I've still to learn!!!

Congratulations
David

[Hardy Heern]

.............



Thanks Hardy!

Where do you get these things from? :D

Frank

[DPDAN]

This is so kind of you all,
thanks so much for listening,

Dan
:)

[Sicmu]

I have to disagree with the others, I listened and found this boring : it's endlessly F major with very predictable chords progressions, the music never really takes flight despite the title.

Sometimes I was so bored that I skiped a passage to discover that 2 minutes after that it was still the same key, the same piano and harp arpeggios etc...
The use of the orchestral playing technics is very basic and most importantly nothing really happens during the piece : it's only music for relaxation.

Congratulations for getting this played but at the same time it's a pity to know there is plenty of good music that is still awaiting to be performed.

[Houston Haynes]

So - instead of taking the music on it's own terms and allowing it to develop - and take the experience as it's given - you "[sometimes] skiped a passage"... wow, that's some amazingly well-disciplined musical acumen you've got there. I was wondering how long it would take an EastWest acolyte to show up and try to drive this into the ditch.

:rolleyes:

Dan - that was an excellent render and mix - truly. The piece is a perfect example of how a sample library, when designed with real players and playing in mind - can translate so much better to the real world. Congrats to everyone involved - this will be a touchstone (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=touchstone) that people will point to when they identify the the time and place where the divide between samples and live playings was effectively bridged for the first time.

[Sicmu]

I was wondering how long it would take an EastWest acolyte to show up and try to drive this into the ditch.


Dear HH, I don't get your point : I don't care about sample libraries, I just give my opinion on the music itself.

Can you explain yourself ?

Thank you

[Houston Haynes]

Dear HH, I don't get your point : I don't care about sample libraries, I just give my opinion on the music itself.

Can you explain yourself ?

Sure - I'll just repost the update I made at the bottom of page 4 of this thread:

=============================

So - instead of taking the music on it's own terms and allowing it to develop - and take the experience as it's given - you "[sometimes] skiped a passage"... wow, that's some amazingly well-disciplined musical acumen you've got there.

:rolleyes:

=============================


Thank you

Any time - and by the way - the next time you pass summary judgement on someone else's music - you might want to be sure that your own demo page is up to date with live links so that your compatriots can do the same thing to you...

I'll also re-post this to Dan, Ken-P and Gary:

=============================

Dan - that was an excellent render and mix - truly. The piece is a perfect example of how a sample library, when designed with real players and playing in mind - can translate so much better to the real world. Congrats to everyone involved - this will be a touchstone (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=touchstone) that people will point to when they identify the the time and place where the divide between samples and live playings was effectively bridged for the first time.

=============================

Congrats again, everyone.

[Garritan]

Ken-P's work is a masterpiece and I believe it is one of the most beautiful pieces that has graced this forum.

Ken-P piece was chosen as one of the top winners among over 200 entries. His worked was judged superior by an expert panel of judges including Emmy-award winner Hummie Mann, Film Music Magazine editor Martk Northam, composer/orchestrator Andy Brick, composer/arranger Dave Maddux, and others.

Not only was Ken'P's "Wings of Dreams" work performed and recorded for the GPO Orchestration Competition, but this work was later performed by another orchestra.

To have a work selected by experts and to have two orchestral performances of the same work; this is a great acheivement for such a young person.

Ken-P is a very gifted and dedicated musician and is going to go far.


Gary Garritan

[Sicmu]

Any time - and by the way - the next time you pass summary judgement on someone else's music - you might want to be sure that your own demo page is up to date with live links so that your compatriots can do the same thing to you...


This is ridiculous : I don't see any connection between the quality of my music and this one, even if I wasn't a composer I claim the right to give my opinion if argued.
Your satement is childish and can be considered as " say you like it or shut up", so there is no musical discussion, just an endless and sterile praise...

You are so intoxicated by sample libraries that you thought that I was working for EW (so funny !) while I'm just interested by musical structure and form considerations.

Maybe Ken is a great musician : I just found this piece boring and uninteresting for the reasons I mentionned above( I can add more details if you want), this is my opinion and since it's a democraty I claim the right to say it, if of course it's polite and with musical arguments that can be refuted by others, and not by such replies :"if you can't do better shut up !".

This will lead us to a musical discussion that might be more interesting than the usual : "congrats, bye !"

[Bela D Media]

WARNING:
Yet another Garritan thread about to be spun in to OT land :D

Now *this* is predictable and boring.

[Houston Haynes]

this is my opinion and since it's a democraty I claim the right to say it

But what you don't see is that you are being cut by the other edge of the sword you've wielded. If this was a "democraty" then we'd have equal access to your music in which to understand the basis of your judgement. You can argue hypotheticals of whether you'd have a valid point if you weren't a composer - but the hypothetical doesn't apply - because you *are* a composer (or at least you have a site that purports to that assertion) and therefore making yourself equally subject to the scrutiny that Ken-P has made available would fall well under the fundamental tenet of democracy referred to as "equal protection".

Personally, I think that Gary's label of "masterpiece" is overstated, but I also believe that you are way out of line for passing summary judgement without listening to the entire piece and without any respect to the composer's intent or experience.

[Sicmu]

But what you don't see is that you are being cut by the other edge of the sword you've wielded. If this was a "democraty" then we'd have equal access to your music in which to understand the basis of your judgement. You can argue hypotheticals of whether you'd have a valid point if you weren't a composer - but the hypothetical doesn't apply - because you *are* a composer (or at least you have a site that purports to that assertion) and therefore making yourself equally subject to the scrutiny that Ken-P has made available would fall well under the fundamental tenet of democracy referred to as "equal protection".

Once again you don't understand my point : it's not a competition, the thread is about Ken's music not mine : if you feel concerned you should refute my musical statement by others musical arguments and not to feel harmed and be so defensive, like we were judging who's music is the best.

If Ken asks me, I will give him some links to my music, nevertheless I have to confess that unlike you I'm maybe not a musical "titan" .


Personally, I think that Gary's label of "masterpiece" is overstated, but I also believe that you are way out of line for passing summary judgement without listening to the entire piece and without any respect to the composer's intent or experience.

You are right : We should always listen to a piece in its whole.
It's what I did even if I didnt mentioned it : but I don't change my mind.

I have the utmost respect for every composer but it doesn't discourage me to give my opinion when I decide I want to do it.

[Hardy Heern]

I have to disagree with the others, I listened and found this boring : it's endlessly F major with very predictable chords progressions, the music never really takes flight despite the title.

Sometimes I was so bored that I skiped a passage to discover that 2 minutes after that it was still the same key, the same piano and harp arpeggios etc...
The use of the orchestral playing technics is very basic and most importantly nothing really happens during the piece : it's only music for relaxation.

Congratulations for getting this played but at the same time it's a pity to know there is plenty of good music that is still awaiting to be performed.

JHC, Sicmu!!

The real world isn't a rigid lesson in chord rules.....believe it. If you ignore theory and academic interest for a minute.....all that really matters is whether the piece is entertaining.....don't analyse it to death as the vast majority of the population wouldn't know how to........Just go with the flow........let your ears be free from your rigid education.

Elgar's Nimrod variation (not to mention some of the Beatle's songs:) ) has an extraordinary simple chord sequence. Give some artists only red, white and blue and even people like you might be surprised with what might be created by them, using a limited palette:)

This is a beautiful piece........If you disagree, let's hear you do better!!! What's wrong with music that's relaxing. We don't all need the musical equivalent of a serious and bleak film like 'Brokeback Mountain'......not all the time anyway.....

Frank

[karmacomposer]

Sicmu,

I doubt you even listened to this.

Ken-P,

Fantastic composing. This is such a beautiful piece of music. I LOVED IT from beginning to end. The crescendos and decrescendos were masterful, as were the use of percussion, strings - and that horn solo - amazing. It was all so darn good. I love the emotion - the raw feelings of this piece. Makes you want to cry and then excites you. Boring???????? - I THINK NOT!!!!!!! This has success written all over it. Congratulations. You are one talented individual.

DPDAN - I cannot believe that was a midi piece using GPO! Honestly, if I simply watched the video and did not read what Garritan wrote about you mixing and syncing this with the video, I would have SWORN it was the actual production.

LOL - I JUST bought KHSO Emerald - and now I will also have to buy Garritan.

Congratulations to you two - especially Ken - what a composer! I hope I can one day come CLOSE to your level.

Mike

[artsoundz]

Sicm- I think you absolutely entitled to your opinion.AND I don't think you need to prove yourself by playing your stuff. A great baseball coach can't play ball like his team members.

I Do think , though, that your response was a bit unprofessional and could have been tempered a little in order to get your point across(of which I sort of agree) and while, indeed, it's not a "Masterpiece"(by historical standards} it is a masterpiece for what it is-a very strong mainstream composition with very solid crafstman/artistic sensibilities. Beyond that, i sorta think you missed the point.

It needs to be taken as a whole-a big picture kind of thing. For one it IS a definitive(so far) milestone in that DP Dan pretty much proved the sample Orch. can be pulled off in terms of sounding live. I loved that. for that alone. I'm inspired, encouraged, and overall came away from that having my life experience enhanced.

It's a "this is this" kinda thing. ya dig?;)

[Theodor]

Congratulations Ken! I wish you more success to come and always in happiness. It must've been a great experience having your piece played by an orchestra :)

And thanks for the Video Dan, you are very talented at creating orchestral illusions, in video or audio on its own. I really liked that trumpet solo part, it synced so nicely.

[Sicmu]

JHC, Sicmu!!

The real world isn't a rigid lesson in chord rules.....believe it. If you ignore theory and academic interest for a minute.....all that really matters is whether the piece is entertaining.....don't analyse it to death as the vast majority of the population wouldn't know how to........Just go with the flow........let your ears be free from your rigid education.

Elgar's Nimrod variation (not to mention some of the Beatle's songs:) ) has an extraordinary simple chord sequence. Give some artists only red, white and blue and even people like you might be surprised with what might be created by them, using a limited palette:)

This is a beautiful piece........If you disagree, let's hear you do better!!! What's wrong with music that's relaxing. We don't all need the musical equivalent of a serious and bleak film like 'Brokeback Mountain'......not all the time anyway.....

Frank

Yes maybe you are right : my musical education is rigid, thank you for posting some musical arguments, it is what I expected : I agree that besides techniques (and sample libraries) music is first a matter of emotion, so to the end everybody should be able to make is own opinion.
Nevertheless I think that when composing, the writing skills are linked with the meanings and I still think that nothing really happens here.

Yes Nimrod is based on a simple chord progression, but much more subtle that in this case and not so simple, in this Elgar variation the piece is so well balanced and structured that the only climax is charged with a noble and subtle emotion, something I absolutely don't find in Kent's piece (despite many crescendi and peaks).

Furthermore don't forget that Nimrod is only a part of Whole where Elgar displays all kind of orchestral writings : from the simplest to the more shophisticated.

yes I disagree : it's not a so beautiful piece to me and even if you listen to my music this piece will not sound better to my ears because both are not related to each other.

To artsoundz : thank you for acknowledging that I can have my personal opinion, and I do know by experience how long it can take to write an orchestral score (much longer than 8 minutes) and my point wasn't to discuss about the orchestra, the sample library or the image quality.

[artsoundz]

I know. This place , like all forums, can get very sensitive. I tend to answer as if I'm hangin and havin' some beers and get defensive answers. But, all in all, I think your viewpoint is fairly accurate. Maybe a few more emoticons?:cool:

Actually, I have a theory that we will all eventually, w/emoticons being so prevalent, become Egyptians. The Kings of Emoticons.

[DPDAN]

Whew it's hot in here, but that's expected "over here" :) just kidding guys. :D

Music is so subjective, we all know that, so is soda pop and beer. What one person thinks is a masterpiece, another thinks it has no value, and does not arouse the musical intelect of the listener.

I am very moved when I listen to this piece by Kentaro Sato, and certainly not because I did the sound, far from it. It takes alot for me to be moved by something I do. I was so moved when I heard the original live internet feed. The chord progressions and the weaving in and out of instruments is great arranging to me.

Everyone indeed has the privalege to post their thoughts here.

I think it is sad that a person can hear this piece midi or not, and not at least hear the emotion in the writing, that part I don't get, and that's OK. But at the same time, it is just one person's opinion, and as Gary mentioned, this piece was just one out of 200 entries into a competition.

I want to thank Kentaro again for his writting, and to Gary for the Garritan Personal Orchestra. :)

I feel bad sometimes because some people may think that I am doing these crazy things,.... comparison, and video with GPO to insult the real thing. This could not be farther from the truth.

I got into MOTU's Digital Performer and midi not quite two years ago. I am so excited about what can be done with a minimal setup. I am a recording engineer with no technical or musical training, and this whole midi thing has been such a fun ride.

Thanks again to all those who listened.
Sorry for the long post.

Dan

[Hardy Heern]

Yes maybe you are right : my musical education is rigid, thank you for posting some musical arguments, it is what I expected : I agree that besides techniques (and sample libraries) music is first a matter of emotion, so to the end everybody should be able to make is own opinion.
Nevertheless I think that when composing, the writing skills are linked with the meanings and I still think that nothing really happens here.

Yes Nimrod is based on a simple chord progression, but much more subtle that in this case and not so simple, in this Elgar variation the piece is so well balanced and structured that the only climax is charged with a noble and subtle emotion, something I absolutely don't find in Kent's piece (despite many crescendi and peaks).

Furthermore don't forget that Nimrod is only a part of Whole where Elgar displays all kind of orchestral writings : from the simplest to the more shophisticated.

yes I disagree : it's not a so beautiful piece to me and even if you listen to my music this piece will not sound better to my ears because both are not related to each other.

To artsoundz : thank you for acknowledging that I can have my personal opinion, and I do know by experience how long it can take to write an orchestral score (much longer than 8 minutes) and my point wasn't to discuss about the orchestra, the sample library or the image quality.

Oh all right then Sicmu; since you put it like that......your forgiven!:)

Goldarn it and Tarnation.....a fair and balanced comment......I thought I would have provoked you into more than that !!!:D

Thinks......must sharpen my pencil!:) Hey, it's only music and remember that the audience in the hall liked it....I mean they clapped didn't they?:)

Frank

Listen all.......I've already given you :) the idea of the vibrating, real world, feedback piano keyboard (to complete the illusion) but how about (following on from this) having a composition competition where the composer is only allowed the same three chords...I'll let the experts specify which ones but I suppose any one of these threesomes would do: -

C: C (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/C.asp)-F (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/F.asp)-G7 (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/G7.asp)
G: G (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/G.asp)-C (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/C.asp)-D7 (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/D7.asp)
D: D (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/D.asp)-G (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/G.asp)-A7 (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/A7.asp)
A: A (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/A.asp)-D (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/D.asp)-E7 (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/E7.asp)
E: E (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/E.asp)-A (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/A.asp)-B7 (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/B7.asp)
F: F (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/F.asp)-Bb (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/Bb.asp)-C7 (http://www.torvund.net/guitar/chords/C7.asp)

Let's just see what people can do with them....I think we may well be surprised!:)

Or how about fitting a different piece of music to the video?

[artsoundz]

What you are doing has tremendous value. I love it. If any one suggests that you are" doing these crazy things,.... comparison, and video with GPO to insult the real thing." ridiculous. I'm aamzed that you say you aren't a musician. Of course, you are.

[lukpcn]

In my opinion what Ken-P did is gr8.
This piece reches deep down to my heart... :eek:
It's great piece of feelings pour into music.

[Sicmu]

Listen all.......I've already given you the idea of the vibrating, real world, feedback piano keyboard (to complete the illusion) but how about (following on from this) having a composition competition where the composer is only allowed the same three chords...I'll let the experts specify which ones but I suppose any one of these threesomes would do: -

C: C-F-G7
G: G-C-D7
D: D-G-A7
A: A-D-E7
E: E-A-B7
F: F-Bb-C7

Let's just see what people can do with them....I think we may well be surprised!

I do know for beeing a jazz pianist, that one can make great things with only 3 chords.
In the case of your extended authentic cadence, in any key, I defy you to find any classical/orchestral piece using only this chord progression.


I do think everyone is entitled to their own opinions, so maybe you do find this boring. I have to say I'm bored to tears by most Phillip Glass compositions. But I do have to say that I think I would trust the judgement of the technical aspects of the composition as it comes from the rather qualified judges of the competition. But then maybe I'm wrong and you are a Emmy winning composition teacher also and I just missed that somewhere.

Tom

I also don't like Glass and the minimalism, but you contradict yourself : you don't like a so called famous and admired composer who could have been judging this contest but you trust judges you don't even know : trust your ears, your musical education and knowledge and your feelings so you won't be wrong.

I'm very suspicious about the judges since at 1'04" there is a very basic harmonization fault ( something a fisrt year harmony student can fix himself) : the second position A seventh chord lead to D minor = the seventh goes up and so you get parallel fifths between sopran and bass ( D and A), that makes this sounding poorly.

Yes I'm an "enemy winning composer", and because I'm sick of getting responses saying I need to prove I'm a composer, I post some links below ( including one performance as a jazz pianist = very poor recording conditions).

You can say anything : I've already heard that my music contains "masterpieces" or "hideous racket", I will not ask you to prove you can write like a Prince ( between Princes and Titans I feel so tiny...).

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Jazz.mp3

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Chicago.m3u

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Allegro_Deciso.m3u

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Battle_of_the_Super_Heroes.mp3

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Christmas_A.Millet.mp3

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Mvt1_Allegro.mp3

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Predatosaurus.mp3

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Waltzing.mp3

[MikeGraybill]

I enjoyed that! I know I'm late but gratz to Ken on the multiple performances (I've always enjoyed your mockups in the past.) Well done Dan, too. Overall a pretty cool illusion there, it was fun :)

Could someone tell me if there's a way to hear the recorded version/s as well?

[DPDAN]

Could someone tell me if there's a way to hear the recorded version/s as well?

Hi Mike, thanks.
This should start a whole new war.
Not by you sorry :eek: Dan


Windows Media - Broadband Highest Resolution (26.4MB): Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_450.wmv)

Windows Media - Medium Resolution (13.4MB):
Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_220.wmv)

Windows Media - Dialup Lowest Resolution (3.6MB): Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_56.wmv)
Quicktime - Broadband Highest Resolution (28MB):
Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_450.mov)

Quicktime Medium Resolution (15MB):
Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_250.mov)

Quicktime Dialup Lowest Resolution (5MB):
Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_96.mov)

[JBacal]

Dan-- Masterful performance and mix. The best thing I've heard using GPO. I wish I could make my mixes sound half as good. Would you mind discussing some specifics about EQ, reverb, etc.

Best,
Jay

[MikeGraybill]

Thanks for the links, Dan. Short review - both retain their sparkle without one eclipsing the other for what they are. Actually, there was one moment where I remembered liking the balance of the GPO trumpet better than the live performance in the context. The live recording was well-done, glad I got to hear it. Still, I'm impressed - the GPO version sounded good and really can stand on its own here.

Little OT - My mom is gunna be in San Antonio for a music teacher's thing in a couple of weeks, and she mentioned Gary would be there. She knew of him because her kids k-5 are composing music at her elementary school using computers and loop-based programs, and she has played for them music I've written before, which got them excited at first, and then disappointed because their loop programs don't work eloquently enough to write for each instrument. I’ve been suggesting GPO (which I haven't used, but it seemed a really good direction), and I'd be willing to bet the superintendent would give her just about anything she asked for since her school's a pilot school (the kids already each have a decent computer, etc..) Still, since she'll be there, I told her that she must go meet Mr. Garritan and figured she'd be hyped enough to give it a shot after seeing what can be done.

G'Luck and make it a good presentation Gary! And sell her some copies :D I think she'll need about 25 licenses or so. I just really wanna see those Jr. High - High School teachers’ faces when elementary school kids start asking about composition classes or whether the band/orchestra will perform their works..

[DPDAN]

Jay and Mike,
Thank you so much for your time responding to this topic.
It was a pleasure to do this with a piece I really like.

Jay, I would be happy to talk shop... EQ, reverb,.... are you kidding?
I love this stuff....... he he :D

Very little, if any EQ was used throughout. I think I used some on the Oboe solo and flute. I also cut a smidgeon of EQ from 1st and 2nd violins, around 2.5 khz. No magical mastering plugin and no compression. There were three Altiverb instances used for this Wings Of Dreams by Kentaro Sato, and one more that was set with a long tail to enhance the length of a few instruments, like the celeste on the last three notes, just to make it perdy :)

One of the cool things about GPO, is that there are enough violins that you can actually create a decent size string section from individual solo violins. I won't go into all the details of the advantages, except to say that sometimes (for me), the individual violins have too much vibrato for a section sound, even though vibrato is a common thing with violinists in a section. I prefer to use the section sounds in GPO for strings, and simply layer one solo violin on top, just to let it peak through ever so slightly, usually only during very tender moments. This gives a very slight hint to the first chair player's instrument, or maybe those Schoeps overhead mics were just a little too good.

I always render (record) every single sound from GPO to it's own audio track. I draw some pitch bending in Digital Performer in the midi tracks, and sometimes I use Digital Performer's pitch correction for the purpose of drawing in additional swoops "to and from" adjacent notes in the audio track. What an amazing difference this makes.

Anyway, tons of volume fader automation. Virtually every track has automation. I use a simple method of assigning instruments to reverb. These days, there are so many ways to achieve similar results, and I choose to assign all the orchestra sections to their own stereo group master. That is where a stereo "AUX send knob" (post) is assigned to a stereo AUX track (fader) where the proper Altiverb is inserted. Each section has it's own Altiverb impusle response (IR), this way, all the stings receive the same amount of reverb, and are processed with an impulse response that used a minimal distance between the microphones and the speakers. The woodwinds use the same room IR, but use a slightly farther distance, and the rest of the instruments uses a distance that is even farther back. Using a single stereo (post) fader "AUX SEND" from the group master, is a very simple way to assure that the individual track volume fader automation is still realized, while having the luxury of a stereo section master, it's automated too.

If you used a more traditional way of assigning individual aux send knobs, the strings' "group master" would not raise or lower the volume of the reverb for the strings, since the group master is only controlling the dry signal reaching the final stereo "MIX" master. By using a single stereo send from the group master as I mentioned earlier, the individual fader automation is maintained and the reverb send follows (post) the group master. More ideal to me. Sorry if that was confusing. :cool:

I'm outa breath! :eek:

dpDan

[Garritan]

My mom is gunna be in San Antonio for a music teacher's thing in a couple of weeks, and she mentioned Gary would be there. She knew of him because her kids k-5 are composing music at her elementary school using computers and loop-based programs, and she has played for them music I've written before, which got them excited at first, and then disappointed because their loop programs don't work eloquently enough to write for each instrument. I’ve been suggesting GPO (which I haven't used, but it seemed a really good direction), and I'd be willing to bet the superintendent would give her just about anything she asked for since her school's a pilot school (the kids already each have a decent computer, etc..) Still, since she'll be there, I told her that she must go meet Mr. Garritan and figured she'd be hyped enough to give it a shot after seeing what can be done.

G'Luck and make it a good presentation Gary! And sell her some copies :D I think she'll need about 25 licenses or so. I just really wanna see those Jr. High - High School teachers’ faces when elementary school kids start asking about composition classes or whether the band/orchestra will perform their works..Thanks Mike, I look forward to perhaps seeing your mom at San Antonio. Please ask her to stop by and say hello. k-5 children composing music using computers music technology. How far we have come in a short time. You are lucky to come from such talented lineage (and I bet she feels lucky too)!

Gary Garritan

[MikeGraybill]

Awsome - I think she said you were speaking on Thurs if I remember correctly, so she'd already made time for it in the schedule of events. I'll let her know to say hi. I know she'll be impressed when she gets a first hand look. She's seen the way I work, but Cubase midi sequencing and libraries on other comps probably looks like a difficult thing to get kids into. I've said that this could be potentially much more user-friendly if setup well, so I bet she'll be excited about the ideas when she gets to see it in action. Anyway, hope you have a good time down there, it's a pretty place and not too hot this time of year ;)

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Hi Gang,

I've just now had the opportunity to sit quietly and watch this on a big monitor with no distractions.

First, it is a lovely piece. Congratulations, Kentaro, it is a testament to a great deal of emotional committment, and I appreciate its pace and heartfelt beauty. It's ironic that music which is overwhelmingly pretty is sometimes the music which takes the most courage to write. It's an easy mark.

I'm happy the live version was posted. Dan, you certainly did a good job of mocking up, and the quality of that mockup is very good.

But boy, does the live recording ever bring home the difficulty in getting a sampled work to go "the extra mile." The emotional scope and range is dramatically different in the live version, which no offense to Dan, I preferred decidedly as a vehicle for Ken's piece.

Where I find large differences, and something to learn from this...

The rendered version feels emotionally "sweet" throughout. I was actually not as moved by the piece until I heard the live version, because with live players a good bit of that sweetness came off as melancholy instead--which I thought was actually more fitting to the piece, and made it a lot more emotionally balanced. Melancholy is the blue-gray to the hot reds of sweetness...it launches the emotion and creates a foundation for it that grounds it.

I daresay if Mr. Sicmu had heard the live version, he might have still found the piece not matching his taste, but the aspect of "boredom" might not have been his response. I can't speak for him, but I can certainly speak for my own responses, and while I would not have said boring, I would have come away with a very different idea about the piece had I not listened to the live version.

So, what is the aspect of a skilled mockup, versus a live orchestra, which would account for this? I think that's the place where we find something to learn. The completely simple explanation would be that Dan simply hears the piece in a lighter, less melancholy way, and that it is his interpretation that is making the difference. However, I don't think that is 100% it, and that there are aspects that bear on this.

The most obvious differences I hear are more pronounced ensemble motions in general. I know this is hard from my own work, that getting an emotionally moving ensemble crescendo or diminuendo from a sampled work is extremely labor intensive, and beyond that, even when the volume and timbral "sweep" seems correct, it is somehow not making that same emotional gambit.

So, given that this piece is dependent upon those devices to increase emotional stakes, and that there are many of them used, this could account for a difference in emotional impact. It's almost ironic, since many of the sequenced crescendos are more balanced, and are even more "patient" in their pace. Some of the live ones, conversely, come off a little raw and arguably a tiny bit overcooked. So, I think it might actually boil down to a combination of multiple musical "wills" and the sense of risk inherent in the live version which helps push more emotion out of the same material.

I think an aspect that supports the above is the similarity in which the subito changes throughout the piece come off, versus the difference in which the gradual changes come off.

Another thing that I hear very clearly in comparison is the pesky problem of timbral "cover" and dovetailing. Man, is it ever HARD to dovetail a virtual ensemble together in a way that is such second nature to a sitting live ensemble. The most obvious example would be the two harp glisses up front, where in the mockup we hear the gliss so clearly per note, and in the live version the harp is more of a gesture...particularly as the tessitura approaches the top of the instrument and the part recedes into the cover of the orchestra.

Brass, too (how is it that all of the traditional problem areas never change), are not sounding bad in the mockup by any means, but in the live ensemble...despite a couple of performance hiccups...there is that indescribable ensemble brass feeling which is so elusive in a sampled work.

All in all, I enjoyed the work. It is commendable for Mr. Garritan to have actively expressed such generosity in sponsoring an opportunity like this.

Best regards,
Bruce

ps...somebody needs to glue that conductor's legs together and nail his feet to the podium.

[Hardy Heern]

Whilst you've all been concentrating on the music you've missed the big joke. It's not a real orchestra!!! The 'musicians' are virual.....digitally created.

It transpires that the audio is the recording from the actual concert but the virtual 3D players were constructed (overlayed) painstakingly, frame by frame, to emulate the actual features and movements of the real players!

Sorry Gary, I'm not going to let you catch me and others out like this again.........Why don't you just hire real players....I mean they'll never sound like real samples but at least you'll be giving someone a living..........

Frank

[Garritan]

Whilst you've all been concentrating on the music you've missed the big joke. It's not a real orchestra!!! The 'musicians' are virual.....digitally created.

It transpires that the audio is the recording from the actual concert but the virtual 3D players were constructed (overlayed) painstakingly, frame by frame, to emulate the actual features and movements of the real players!

Sorry Gary, I'm not going to let you catch me and others out like this again.........Why don't you just hire real players....I mean they'll never sound like real samples but at least you'll be giving someone a living..........

FrankLOL :D :D :D

You were the only one that figured it out! What gave it away? Was it the machine-gun effect you saw in the violin player's case? Or did the trombone player dress too nicely? Maybe it was too much dynamic range in the condutor? Next time I'll have to invest in a very expensive 3D program for better realism. :D

[Hardy Heern]

LOL :D :D :D

You were the only one that figured it out! What gave it away? Was it the machine-gun effect you saw in the violin player's case? Or did the trombone player dress too nicely? Maybe it was too much dynamic range in the condutor? Next time I'll have to invest in a very expensive 3D program for better realism. :D

Next time make sure that the violinist, to the right of the first violinist, has correct skin texture.....the whole thing needs more VIDI tweaking........

Frank

[Serge]

Hi Mike, thanks.
This should start a whole new war.
Not by you sorry :eek: Dan


Windows Media - Broadband Highest Resolution (26.4MB): Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_450.wmv)

Windows Media - Medium Resolution (13.4MB):
Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_220.wmv)

Windows Media - Dialup Lowest Resolution (3.6MB): Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_56.wmv)
Quicktime - Broadband Highest Resolution (28MB):
Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_450.mov)

Quicktime Medium Resolution (15MB):
Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_250.mov)

Quicktime Dialup Lowest Resolution (5MB):
Watch Video Here (http://www.garritan.com/competition/Kentaro_96.mov)

Monday I downloaded the lowest version. I was shocked, WOW it's so real! Since I discovered Dan's ability in a mockup of Debussy no doubt in my mind he could do it again with this one !

This piece is tailored for a movie, you know that scene where Bill recorver from a coma. In this context the melody would shake my heart for sure.

Well, with the magic of technology, someday we're gonna say WOW it's so real!

SergeD

[Garritan]

Next time make sure that the violinist, to the right of the first violinist, has correct skin texture.....the whole thing needs more VIDI tweaking........FrankI guess this makes it the first VIDI-Mockup! Or is it a Music MIDeo? :)

[Hardy Heern]

I guess this makes it the first VIDI-Mockup! Or is it a Music MIDeo? :)

:)

frank

[robgb]

I have the utmost respect for every composer but it doesn't discourage me to give my opinion when I decide I want to do it.You're right. You have every right to express your opinion.

But a person of character would realize that there is a time and a place to express such opinions. This thread is about matching a mock-up to a piece of video. It's not a call for opinions about the piece itself.

Yes, some may have expressed their love of the piece, but it is wholly inappropriate to jump in and call it boring. Save your critique for when it's warranted. Do a review. Whatever.

But don't hijack a thread that is meant to celebrate an accomplishment. It shows a complete lack of class.

[Sicmu]

You're right. You have every right to express your opinion.

But a person of character would realize that there is a time and a place to express such opinions. This thread is about matching a mock-up to a piece of video. It's not a call for opinions about the piece itself.

Yes, some may have expressed their love of the piece, but it is wholly inappropriate to jump in and call it boring. Save your critique for when it's warranted. Do a review. Whatever.

But don't hijack a thread that is meant to celebrate an accomplishment. It shows a complete lack of class.

Yes, you are absolutely right, this is actually a beautiful performance, the composition is a true masterpiece, the library sounds so great with the pictures that I'm gonna buy it right now!

I was a fool to try to discuss music, structure and modulation in this thread: why to speak music if we can praise sound libraries?

So I will come back in 2010 for a more objective review ( I'm so angry right now).

"A total lack of class" : you are too kind ! I would say a total lack of intelligence that makes me unable to appreciate the art of midi mockup.

I will not do it again, I promise...

[artsoundz]

Sicmu- Don't throw in the towel just because you were "jumped on"here. I said it before- I don't think your opinion was all that controversial- it was just an opinion but perhaps a bit cold.

However, since the topic was about the mockup and how it was "a beautiful"piece I think it was absolutely appropriate to give your opinion. Again-maybe you could have tempered your comments a bit but I wasn't offended and I also wasn't "moved" by the piece . I do think it was a lovely piece-nothing MASTERPIECE about the composition but very solid and I was inspired through the use of GPO. And everybody relax- you're askin' Sicmu to follow your RULES w/ regard to forum and subject protocols and there really is nothing out of place by Sicmu's comments. Actually, it was fairly tame if one reads some other comments on this forum.

I think, overall, there does seem to be a rather loose approach here at this forum. Being informal can create misunderstandings so we all need to consider tact and manners. But if someone like Garritian says it's a masterpice well then... he opened that door for comments.

It's all fair- just everyone try to be a bit nicer. I think the worst comment here was ,by far ,the one that said you had no class. That's a stretch and out of line.

BTW your music sounds just fine and at the least qualifies you to have an educated opinion. Maybe offer more substantial "harmonic problem solving". I for one found this piece to be most interesting with respect to the "vibe" thismusic gives. It's a good study of emotion for one.

Hang in there. Stand up to these republicans!:rolleyes::samurai::|:

[FredProgGH]

Well, from here it looks like a classic case of "can dish it out but can't take it". :rolleyes: After all, all people are doing is critiquing what they perceive as Sicmu's lack of social skills in the same fashion that he voiced his opinion of the the piece.

[artsoundz]

maybe you're right.I'm on the fence on this one BUT Sicmu didn't make it personal wheras calling into question his character is. That's a drag.

[robgb]

Yes, you are absolutely right, this is actually a beautiful performance, the composition is a true masterpiece, the library sounds so great with the pictures that I'm gonna buy it right now!

I was a fool to try to discuss music, structure and modulation in this thread: why to speak music if we can praise sound libraries?

So I will come back in 2010 for a more objective review ( I'm so angry right now).

"A total lack of class" : you are too kind ! I would say a total lack of intelligence that makes me unable to appreciate the art of midi mockup.

I will not do it again, I promise...Put it this way. If you were sitting at a concert, then jumped up after it's over and announced to everyone, including the composer, that it was a boring piece of crap, it would amount to just about the same thing.

Do you get it now?

[artsoundz]

not NEARLY the same thing. wow. what a stretch. This is a FORUM where expressing a viewpoint and criticisms are invited and encouraged. And , frankly, giving an opinion at a concert is ok, as well. Just have to do it in the "proper" way. WAY too much overreaction here on Nsounds in general. But whatever- his post may have been a bit rude.
But-c'mon! masterpiece? compared to what? great music but once it's labeled masterpiece , it get's put in w/ the classic Masterpiece we all know and by default invites critical thinking. His use of the word "boring" was fine-for him. I found it (the piece)fairly un adventurous and wondered why everyone was fawning over it. And that isn't meant as an insult. It WAS really nice and beyond me as far as writing properly for an orchestra. But- I was bor...uh...unexcited as well. Sorry- I'm 100% w/ that comment as I can say the same for some of my stuff. But the Dpdan thing was way cool. All in all taken as a whole it was exciting. Dig?

[Sicmu]

I do know this forum is mostly a place dedicated to sample libraries and others soundwares, and the goal is to sale these softwares, I can understand this since it's a living for some people.
The rule is often : don't say anything about the music that can upset a poster, otherwise he can stop posting his music, stop composing and finally stop buying...

What I tried to do is to launch a debate focusing more on the music itself : I find more interesting somebody telling me that he doesn't like my music when it's supported by some musical arguments.
The congrats are welcome for the same reasons, but only good for the ego if not debated.

when I said it's boring, and I still think it is, I give some musical justification and I expected others tell me it's not for some other reasons.

I noticed that a lot of people trust the judgement of an authority rather than their own feeling, they spent more energy trying to prove I have no ability to judge this music, than bringing some musical reasons that would lead me to change my mind.
I think it's a pity that there is so few real musical discussions : everything is based on sample libraries performances, maybe because a lot of composers around here are writing cues for films, they focus more on the sound than on the structure, but when you deal with a 8 minute or more piece the problem arises.
In this piece I felt that it was a 2 minute demo repeated 3 or 4 times, so there is neither structure, nor a real climax, that's why I found it boring and empty, but I acknowledge I didn't have to say it shouldn't have been performed : my apologies

About booing at a concert: it's something I did once after listening to a very bad piece ( but good performance by Kremer) by Kancheli: it was customary in the 19th century and the legendary struggle between Brahmsians and Wagnerians was to me more stimulating than the sterile consensus I see on some forums.

[artsoundz]

fair enough. good post. Thanks for stickin around, Sicmu.

[robgb]

not NEARLY the same thing. wow. what a stretch. Exactly the same thing. People seem to think the anonymity of the web gives you the right to be rude. It does not.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Exactly the same thing. People seem to think the anonymity of the web gives you the right to be rude. It does not.

Then I would say the favor has been more than returned. Mr. Sicmu's links (if you followed them) demonstrate that he's a sophisticated writer of several challenging genres of music, and I for one would love for him to stick around and not be continuously chastised for his remarks. We can use every good musician we can get around here.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I have gotten the same treatment, and in almost exactly the same pattern of events, when I have found that labels like, "genius, masterpiece, major accomplishment, et. al." are used to describe works and accomplishments which may be masterful, but do not rise to the level of accolades tossed about like so many empty words.

I understand that there are varying levels of sophistication among the participants of this forum. However, in any community where there are varying levels of sophistication, one would hope that a community goal would be to constantly balance the need for politeness and moderation AGAINST the need to continually raise the overall level of sophistication.

Otherwise, why are we all here? Do we not want everything, from sample libraries to our collective musicianship, to improve as a result of being in community and spending our time contributing to it?

Flatly put, there is far too much backlash in this community against people brave enough to speak their honest minds. We regularly forgive (and hardly mention) the fact that there are people here who essentially blather on like musical dolts, heaping empty and inaccurate praise on any piece of music that succeeds in rattling a speaker cone. We tolerate those who behave as if we are supposed to choose sides based on brand affiliation and go to war against those who dare question its holy name. Perhaps that is their idea of being supportive.

But it is not really.

Real support involves a balance of helpful truth and encouragement. It is just as offensive, in my mind, to shower empty praise as it is to shower unthinking critique. A balance should exist.

Please bear in mind that this is a general comment, not intended to address any aspect of Kentaro's piece--which I enjoyed. In fact, I disagree with Mr. Sicmu's assessment.

However, if this community is going to continue growing, and avoid stagnation, then we have to accept that people's opinions might be different than our own, might sometimes be harshly stated, and that we cannot spiral into a nuclear meltdown every time diverging viewpoints are expressed.

[Sicmu]

Exactly the same thing. People seem to think the anonymity of the web gives you the right to be rude. It does not.

Of course it's not : how can you compare the behaviours of 2 people facing each other and reacting quickly to the changes of one's tone, expression and everything your senses can detect, to the isolation of an internet chat ?

If I was in the presence of the composer I would tell him I think of his music only if he asks me to do that ( booing is not always a good solution because it can harm the performers).
On the net I know nobody will ask me , so I take the risk.

But I agree that we don't have to insult people anyway : we must be polite and explain our thoughts.
When I say it's boring to me, it's not rude, I don't say it's "crap" as you did when you misquoted me, and I try to explain why I think it is.

[Houston Haynes]

You can say anything : I've already heard that my music contains "masterpieces" or "hideous racket", I will not ask you to prove you can write like a Prince ( between Princes and Titans I feel so tiny...).

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Jazz.mp3

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Chicago.m3u

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Allegro_Deciso.m3u

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Battle_of_the_Super_Heroes.mp3

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Christmas_A.Millet.mp3

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Mvt1_Allegro.mp3

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Predatosaurus.mp3

http://your-sicmu.zftp.com/Waltzing.mp3

Well - it's painfully obvious that you hide your inability to sustain a melody or develop a theme by obfuscating with coloratura and voicing changes. The harmonic rhythm in all of your work quickly becomes monotonous and predictably devoid of center - to the point of being a distraction. And to top it off, your mix is so terrible that it sounds like you're intention is to give the perspective from behind the F horn section. The only thing I managed to listen to all the way through was Mvt1_Allegro - and that was in the vain hope that something resembling tonal music would emerge - to my dissapointment, but not to any surprise. That was seven minutes of my life that I'll never get back.

OK - let's try this again...

I listened to parts of Jazz, Battle of the Super Heroes, Christmas and Predatosaurus - and listened to Allegro all the way through. Your use of orchestral color is overstated in some cases, but probably translates well to the real thing better than the virtual instruments you used for the mockup. I found myself having to "push in" to hear some of the work being done by the strings - you might consider remixing them so that they speak on equal footing with the woodwinds and particularly the F horns. Overall I found the music to be a compentent demonstration of technique and ability, but somewhat lacking in introspection - or "vulnerability" - for lack of a better word. The fair approximation to what I'm thinking is Charles Ives' "The Unanswered Question". There was one particularly bright spot, however - in the latter part of Allegro - where the theme smooths out amidst the hubub in other sections, more reminisent of Poulenc's "Gloria" - that made it worth wading through the first 5-6 minutes of the piece. It's orchestral works that tend to have a late payoff, and in a world of film-score-ish immediate gratification, this is a rarity. Nice work - thanks for sharing.


Do you see the difference? One perspective is taken from a quarter mile away from the view of a scope on a sniper rifle. The other perspective is up close with a magnifying glass. One perspective makes no regard for the composer's intent, while the other at least makes an effort while offering some basis for comparison - demonstrating that at least some effort has been made to bridge the divide that is obviously there.

If you don't or won't understand that difference - then you're not really interested in having a meaningful dialog. And if you're not interested in having a meaningful dialog - then why are you here? Granted, I think that the unwarranted gushing about Ken-P's piece is an equal disservice to maintaining a reasonable discussion (I was among the first to disagree with Gary that it's a "masterpiece") but I don't think that calls for sabotaging the thread with a summary bashing simply to establish some form of obtuse "balance". All things in moderation - particularly in support of lively discourse.

:|:

[Sicmu]

Well - it's painfully obvious that you hide your inability to sustain a melody or develop a theme by obfuscating with coloratura and voicing changes. The harmonic rhythm in all of your work quickly becomes monotonous and predictably devoid of center - to the point of being a distraction. And to top it off, your mix is so terrible that it sounds like you're intention is to give the perspective from behind the F horn section. The only thing I managed to listen to all the way through was Mvt1_Allegro - and that was in the vain hope that something resembling tonal music would emerge - to my dissapointment, but not to any surprise. That was seven minutes of my life that I'll never get back.

OK - let's try this again...

I listened to parts of Jazz, Battle of the Super Heroes, Christmas and Predatosaurus - and listened to Allegro all the way through. Your use of orchestral color is overstated in some cases, but probably translates well to the real thing better than the virtual instruments you used for the mockup. I found myself having to "push in" to hear some of the work being done by the strings - you might consider remixing them so that they speak on equal footing with the woodwinds and particularly the F horns. Overall I found the music to be a compentent demonstration of technique and ability, but somewhat lacking in introspection - or "vulnerability" - for lack of a better word. The fair approximation to what I'm thinking is Charles Ives' "The Unanswered Question". There was one particularly bright spot, however - in the latter part of Allegro - where the theme smooths out amidst the hubub in other sections, more reminisent of Poulenc's "Gloria" - that made it worth wading through the first 5-6 minutes of the piece. It's orchestral works that tend to have a late payoff, and in a world of film-score-ish immediate gratification, this is a rarity. Nice work - thanks for sharing.


Do you see the difference? One perspective is taken from a quarter mile away from the view of a scope on a sniper rifle. The other perspective is up close with a magnifying glass. One perspective makes no regard for the composer's intent, while the other at least makes an effort while offering some basis for comparison - demonstrating that at least some effort has been made to bridge the divide that is obviously there.

If you don't or won't understand that difference - then you're not really interested in having a meaningful dialog. And if you're not interested in having a meaningful dialog - then why are you here? Granted, I think that the unwarranted gushing about Ken-P's piece is an equal disservice to maintaining a reasonable discussion (I was among the first to disagree with Gary that it's a "masterpiece") but I don't think that calls for sabotaging the thread with a summary bashing simply to establish some form of obtuse "balance". All things in moderation - particularly in support of lively discourse.

:|:

Thank you for taking time listening to my music and writing your comments.

even if you left only the first one ( it's actually a caricature of what you think I said about the piece : you make a summary of nearly one hour of music in 5 lines !), I would surely ask you to tell me where you found a lack of melodic development, harmonic rythm( don't understand ?) and tonality because it's not something I have heard frequently from people listening to my music.
In this case I took time to explain with some musical exemples why I found the piece boring and I could have said more if anybody asked me for.
I could agree with the mix (especially for those not made with EWQL), anyway this thread is not about my music...

So I'm happy that at last, I can read something about music that is not only : "congratz", "masterpiece", "keep it up", and you will maybe admit that most of the time the moderation leads to a boring consensus while something more provocative can trigger a more interesting and passionate discussion.
Moderation is for wise people, I admit I'm not wise enough, and rather than to please to everybody on this forum I like better to discuss with people I share musical affinities even if some others think I'm totally wrong.

By the way thank you :I think I'm gonna listen to Poulenc's Gloria.

I'm french but I don't like very much french music : too moderate and not dramatic and passionate enough !

[Garritan]

In referring to Ken-P's work as a "masterpiece", it was in the literal definition of the word, i.e. "an outstanding achievement". Not in the broad context of every composition known to man nor in the league of Beethoven or Stravinski (althought you never know, Ken-P may reach those heights :)). In context of his age (and being a student) and music presented on this board, I believe Ken-P's music fits that definition. And DPDan's syncing was a masterpiece too (Milli Vanilli could have used him :D)!

Gary Garritan

[Jeremy B.]

I'm french but I don't like very much french music : too moderate and not dramatic and passionate enough !
Berlioz and ravel, too moderate? :p

[Hardy Heern]

Thank you for taking time listening to my music and writing your comments.......

......I'm french but I don't like very much french music : too moderate and not dramatic and passionate enough !

Sicmu, How on earth can you say this when you have produced artists like Charles Aznavour, Francois Hardy (My first record purchase ever!!....'If we were only Friends') and, of course, Mireille Mathieu.:) Not to mention the honorary Frenchwoman........ Celine Dion!

Shame on you.....and I do love Ravel's Piano Concerto in G (very much indeed).......the nearest I get to enjoying modern classics......so far!

I always try to keep an open (some would say empty) mind!:)

Frank

Sicmu, we need people like you who aren't afraid to speak out.

[Sicmu]

Berlioz and ravel, too moderate? :p

Berlioz: definitely not, I would rather say he is excessive and it's certainly my favorite french composer.
His influence on Wagner and Mahler was considerable.

Ravel : it can be debated, I love Daphnis, it's a masterpiece ( in the musical sense !), the orchestration is so subtle that it can maybe considered as excessive refinement, but what I meant is that you almost never find in french music the drama, the cataclysm, desperation you can hear in russian ( Shosta, Tchaikosvky, Scriabin...), scandinavian ( Sibelius, Rangstrom, Pettersson...), english (Walton , Finzi, Howells...), german ( Wagner, Lizst, Mahler...), or even american music with such composers as the underrated Peter Mennin.

I would say that french music can be characterized by moderation, balance and refinement, even if some composers like Chausson, Franck and others are more influenced by german tradition.

I like Ravel very much and Dutilleux as well, for the subtility of their sound and the sense of orchestral color but I still think there's a lack of drama and cosmic vision.


Sicmu, How on earth can you say this when you have produced artists like Charles Aznavour, Francois Hardy (My first record purchase ever!!....'If we were only Friends') and, of course, Mireille Mathieu. Not to mention the honorary Frenchwoman........ Celine Dion!

Shame on you.....and I do love Ravel's Piano Concerto in G (very much indeed).......the nearest I get to enjoying modern classics......so far!

I always try to keep an open (some would say empty) mind!

Frank

Sicmu, we need people like you who aren't afraid to speak out.


Yes, I could add Michel Legrand : it's a combination of Jazz and Rachmaninov.

Thank you : my point is not to hold the truth but only to discuss on a subject I know for having heard hundreds of composers and still keep trying to discover new ones daily.

[Hardy Heern]

Berlioz: definitely not, I would rather say he is excessive and it's certainly my favorite ............Yes, I could add Michel Legrand : it's a combination of Jazz and Rachmaninov.

Thank you : my point is not to hold the truth but only to discuss on a subject I know for having heard hundreds of composers and still keep trying to discover new ones daily.

Dear Sicmu,

I've certainly heard of Michel Legrand but I'm not sure if I've heard any of his music or not..I'm embarrassed to say! His name is VERY familiar so I'm sure I must have.

There is just such an overwhelming (of Tsunami proportions) amount of music around that it's impossible to even hear ALL the music which is written in one's own lifetime............far less all the music that has ever been written and lost to our lifetime..........

Frank

[Jeremy B.]

Ravel : it can be debated, I love Daphnis, it's a masterpiece ( in the musical sense !), the orchestration is so subtle that it can maybe considered as excessive refinement, but what I meant is that you almost never find in french music the drama, the cataclysm, desperation you can hear in russian ( Shosta, Tchaikosvky, Scriabin...), scandinavian ( Sibelius, Rangstrom, Pettersson...), english (Walton , Finzi, Howells...), german ( Wagner, Lizst, Mahler...), or even american music with such composers as the underrated Peter Mennin.
I do think Honegger's 2nd and 3rd symphonies have some drama and desperation in them. ;)
Getting back on topic I thought the composition was quite lovely, though it was perhaps a bit simplistic for my taste. It felt like an inspirational hymn to me, and I especially liked the addition of the piano.:)

[PaulR]

Dear Sicmu,

I've certainly heard of Michel Legrand but I'm not sure if I've heard any of his music or not..I'm embarrassed to say! His name is VERY familiar so I'm sure I must have.
Frank

Thomas Crown Affair (original). Excellent writing of very high class.

[Tom Crowning]

Then I would say the favor has been more than returned. Mr. Sicmu's links (if you followed them) demonstrate that he's a sophisticated writer of several challenging genres of music, and I for one would love for him to stick around and not be continuously chastised for his remarks. We can use every good musician we can get around here.

I'd even go one step further: someone doesn't have to be an excellent
musician/composer to be a good critics writer (but obviously it helps).

A good friend of mine doesn't make music at all, but from time to time
she rips my music appart (I like this phrase :) ) and has always good
points for me to think about, even when I don't agree.

Yahoo sayers are nice for the ego, but critics help to improve.

Tom

[Hermitage59]

OK, I've had a look and a listen, and it's my turn.

I'll split this into parts, but firstly offer some parameter and qualifications to my remarks. I am no movie expert. 90% of my work is concert, and although i'm getting some nice jobs here, and i'm sharp enough to pick things up quickly, My musical intent has always been symphonic concert material. It's the way my musical head is put together. I can and have written in various genres, but, well i've stated my preference, and in so much as i can without appearing arrogant, concert is my area of continually growing expertise, particularly the russian and austro-bavarian masters.

I'm sharp enough however to know good from bad when i see or hear it.

firstly.

Gary.

Given my knowledge of your library is only through demos, and other people's works and comments, i had assumed you were on the budget end of the sample market, and no slight intended in this, but turning out quality samples for a low price. This immediately conjures in most people an image of 'Walmart' or cut price goods, and although i didn't go this far, i did have a preconception.

I'm pleased to have been thoroughly dissuaded from this view. I know of your history, always pushing to build and try new things, but the quality of the sound is excellent, and you will know how passionate i am about quality of tone, through my posts regarding mono, and the search for symphonic perfection!:p
The tone of the strings surprised me, and i'm cynical when it comes to most strings samples.
So my respects from a new point of view regarding your products!

Dan, in short, congratulations. The marriage of sound and image is superb, and i confess to watching closely to see if i could trip you up somewhere! Excellent work, and the sample performance is sublime. I am going to assume you faithfully followed the score in relation to dynamics, etc. and provided an accurate yet individual performance of this work. Well done.

Ken,
keeping in mind Gary's comments about you being a student, i am going to be honest with you in relation to the future.

I found this music bland. You gave us sweet, with a dash of 'honour', but no opposite. I'll explain.

Where does hope come from? A place of no hope or a state of emotion we want to get away from. We aspire to hope, because something in our lives isn't satisfactory, or worse. In this work you've stayed at the 'hope' level throughout with little or no variation. Emotion, our most powerful tool in music needs contrast. If you want the audience to believe you, and feel the aspiration for better things in your music, there needs to be a less than hopeful segment, or melody, or, to keep it simple, a contrast.
Two examples of 'hopeful music' that incorporate the darker side of reality include:
The adagio from Spartacus by Khachaturian, and
Romeo and Juliet by Tchaikovsky.
(you might like to try Liszt's Dante, last movement in here as well)

Two works that have 'danger' written into them to provide contrast.
As a composer i've had some big challenges in my meagre existence, and i won't go in to details, but they've provided a rich emotive toolbox of anger, joy, despair, hope, seduction, determination, excitement both physically and mentally, cynicism, melancholy, dark thoughts, etc.
I ruthlessly use these as emotive yardsticks when writing a melody, theme, rhythm or harmony, and put the music through the flames of emotional attrition to see if it matches up.

The emotive range is this work is fairly minimal. and with little contrast. We're hopeful, and well, hopeful. I don't say this to discourage you, quite the contrary, but if you are to exploit your potential, then a wider range of emotive statements in your work would seve you well. (IMHO)

Next, not enough orchestrated variation. You have a minimal melodic structure, almost absent in places, relying on transitional chords and repetitive tone to carry the piece. Sweet strings will only go so far, then the emotion dies in the listener, and the repetition becomes irritatiing. This is a difficult one, to judge how far you can go, before the audience starts to switch from aggreeable to disagreeable. There's no book for this, so instincts and experience count for something here.
And an example of this was the piano. The repetive arpeggiatic phrase went at least two bars too long, and you seemed to use it as a 'glue' over the top of simple harmonic repetition and modulation. Alright as a trick to use, but difficult when both 'blocks' are doing the same thing. repeat one, vary the other would work better here.
Then you introduced the Kb's with snare. I waited for the contrast. Maybe double tempoed trumpet lines with a darker string theme, to provide a aural 'breather' from the sweetness that went before. Some evil or tragic intent as it were.
But it didn't come, and I heard 'honour' which is, for me, another version of hope. Two aspirational emotions don't mix for me. Dark and Light, Slow and fast, Good and bad, these are contrasting elements that create and heighten interest.
And let's not forget the big one, Question and Answer.

There remained for me a missing element in this work, that of tension.

The ending was an emotive repetition of all that went before, and although musically competent, predictable.
I would also suggest more variation in orchestral selection. Be bold, Ken.
Inner parts don't have to be predictable or constructed with the same bland textbook examples of instruments.
Just two good examples of variation are;
Beethoven. Listen to the clever syncopation he uses to give the music 'pace' without writing in yet another line. A clever simple method that stands the test of time as effective.
Rimsky Korsakov. Inner parts are often thin but still sound complete due to instrument choice, often unorthodox.

And a great study for writing strongly emotive music with profound contrast in a continuing tempo is Wagner's Prelude to Lohengrin. Even then he doubles note values in places to heighten the tension.
These have the potential for new sound colours to add to your pallette.

Finally, and importantly. I don't think your music is bad, or worthless. On the contrary, for what you have written, the balance is good, and you're obviously musically competent.

Rather, it lacks orchestrative choices.

And for what it's worth, i hack mine to pieces constantly, searching for that perfect 'voice' or combination of voices!;)



I would hope that you and others will take these comments in the right spirit, remembering my personal preferences will colour my observations to a certain degree, and i genuinely wish you success in the future.

regards,


Alex.

[Garritan]

Gary.

Given my knowledge of your library is only through demos, and other people's works and comments, i had assumed you were on the budget end of the sample market, and no slight intended in this, but turning out quality samples for a low price. This immediately conjures in most people an image of 'Walmart' or cut price goods, and although i didn't go this far, i did have a preconception.

I'm pleased to have been thoroughly dissuaded from this view. I know of your history, always pushing to build and try new things, but the quality of the sound is excellent, and you will know how passionate i am about quality of tone, through my posts regarding mono, and the search for symphonic perfection!:p
The tone of the strings surprised me, and i'm cynical when it comes to most strings samples.
So my respects from a new point of view regarding your products!

Alex,

No slight taken whasoever. My goal with Personal Orchestra was to democratize orchestral sampling and to benefit the industry. It was to be expected that bringing the prices to such low levels would cause this perception.

I am glad you had an open mind about this and judged for yourself. Given emerging technologies, in the not-too-distant future we will see affordable libraries that are far superior to the expensive libraries of today.

Thanks for bringing the discussion back to Ken-P's music and Dan's syncing and for sharing your insights.

Gary Garritan

[DPDAN]

Alex, what a nice post! Thank you for your time writing out such a detailed response.

I agree about GPO, it is understandable that one would think the quality of GPO's samples is cut rate because of the price. It is nice to hear that this rendition changed your mind.

I don't have the score, and I don't read music anyway, but thank you for thinking that I followed the writers intentions. It's good to know that this "soundman" still has some feeling left in his 50 year old bones :)
I didn't refer to the original audio while mixing. Evidence of this is that some places, I don't have the brass nearly loud enough in the mix. I mixed it clearly by my own personal taste. Thank you for the nice compliments. I trust they are genuine, and not sugar coated based on the honesty in your post with regards to other things.

To me, Ken's writing pulls on the heartstrings. Maybe I have been so emotionally moved because there is not alot of contrast in the development, or "hope" as you describe it. I sense, and agree with so much of what you described in your advice to Ken. My area of experience is more in mixing and arranging,.. not writing. I guess because my head knowledge of orchestrating is minimal at best, it is this reason that my heart strings were able to be moved without my head saying,,,, why didn't he modulate there? or why didn't he.... blah blah blah,,,,?

This may come off sarcastic as if I think your knowledge is so great, that you are not able to hear the piece for it's intended emotion. Not so, we "listeners" are from all walks of life, and we all have different levels of grief, sadness, joy and happiness in our lives, which causes us to hear things from our emotional biased perspective. Did that make any sense? ;)

Anyway, I wanted to thank you for the nice post. It was humble, and informative. Thanks again for your time listening and your professional viewpoint.

dpDan

[Hardy Heern]

Alex,

No slight taken whasoever. My goal with Personal Orchestra was to democratize orchestral sampling and to benefit the industry. It was to be expected that bringing the prices to such low levels would cause this perception.

I am glad you had an open mind about this and judged for yourself. Given emerging technologies, in the not-too-distant future we will see affordable libraries that are far superior to the expensive libraries of today.

Thanks for bringing the discussion back to Ken-P's music and Dan's syncing and for sharing your insights.

Gary Garritan

Good to hear that GPOAdvanced will be announced in the not too distant future!!:) I thought we'd have to wait longer than that!!:)

Frank

[Hermitage59]

I don't have the score, and I don't read music anyway, but thank you for thinking that I followed the writers intentions. It's good to know that this "soundman" still has some feeling left in his 50 year old bones :)
I trust they are genuine, and not sugar coated based on the honesty in your post with regards to other things.

This may come off sarcastic as if I think your knowledge is so great, that you are not able to hear the piece for it's intended emotion.
dpDan

Then i'm even more impressed with the performance. Good to know the old adage still rings true.......'When in doubt, trust your ears!'

And I'm considerably more enthused with the next bit. You're older than I am!:D

And i can assure you Dan, that i will be honest. If comments are critical, then i will explain and attempt to produce not only examples but alternate suggestions. I consider this approach fair, and constructive.

I don't think you're being sarcastic at all. And i am most certainly NOT a master in disguise, or a musical encyclopedia, or the font of all knowledge. I share my ideas and principles, and discuss without an assumption of superiority or arrogance. The FACT is, the more i learn, the more i realise how little i know, and that spurs me on to study further. (Something i've done with virtually no break, all my life.)
And i consider it completely true we will hear music in different ways, with different personal emotive experiences. This is the reason i qualified my own perspective.


Regards,

alex.

[Garritan]

Good to hear that GPOAdvanced will be announced in the not too distant future!!:) I thought we'd have to wait longer than that!!:)

FrankWait a minute..who said anything about GPO Advanced? Or EL GUAPO (Ultra Advanced Personal Orchestra)? ;) :D

[Hardy Heern]

Wait a minute..who said anything about GPO Advanced? Or EL GUAPO (Ultra Advanced Personal Orchestra)? ;) :D

:D What about GIMPO?? Garritan IMPersonal Orchestra

On second thoughts.....perhaps not the best marketing name you could have......:) You're right.....building on your idea.....El GUANO 'Garritan Ultra Advanced Natural Orchestra' is better :D !!

Frank

[Hermitage59]

:D.El GUANO 'Garritan Ultra Advanced Natural Orchestra' is better :D !!

Frank

There are so many replies for this fighting for space in my head, none of which are suitable for publication!

Ssssiigghhhh...........................:)

[Garritan]

There are so many replies for this fighting for space in my head, none of which are suitable for publication!
Ssssiigghhhh...........................:)Like EL GUACAMMOLE :D
Garritan Ultra Advanced Complete And Most Masculine Orchestral Library Ever ;)

[Hermitage59]

Like EL GUACAMMOLE :D
Garritan Ultra Advanced Complete And Most Masculine Library Ever ;)

Most masculine library?

Got to be mono then, the REAL man's sample...................:)

[Hardy Heern]

There are so many replies for this fighting for space in my head, none of which are suitable for publication!

Ssssiigghhhh...........................:)

Alex, Don't let that worry you......Let the ignorance be with you!

There is something truly wonderful about being totally, completely and yet,..... blissfully ignorant (I should know!:) )......it allows me to say just about anything about anything and I'm non the wiser....I don't even need to know anything about the subject.........Ahhhhh....Mmmmmm......God how I love it here.........:)

Frank

PS...I don't think I'm alone.........

[Hardy Heern]

Like EL GUACAMMOLE :D
Garritan Ultra Advanced Complete And Most Masculine Orchestral Library Ever ;)

I must say, that DOES have a ring to it......yup, it's something special. Just lose the Most.....guacamole's only got one M :D Or to give you the benefit of the doubt perhaps you put in the extra M to avoid confusion.....I think I'll go with that........

That's it then.........next library named! God this sample library business is a piece of cake....isn't it?:)

Frank