OR: Difference between volume midi control (cc7) and expression (cc11)?

[Raindog]

Sorry for this slightly OT question but I realised that I don´t really understand the difference between controlling an instrument with the volume controller versus the expression pedal. Is there a difference at all? I´m using my volume pedal to make the performance of my sampled bandoneon more realistic. Would it be of any advantage to use the expression controller instead?
Thanks for any info regarding my question.
regards
Raindog

[ohernie]

I don't know what they do around here but in most of the midifiles I've worked with volume is used to set the overall track volume and expression is used for dynamics. That way you can bring up the track in the mix without re-editing all of the dynamics.

Ernie

[FrozeN]

Yeah I think Ernie pretty much sums it up.... you may think of CC7 is the macro, which you can change it by just pushing a single button/slider/knob on your sequencer software, while CC11 is the micro, which has to be embedded in the track, as MIDI data.

Not much of a difference except programming-wise. ;)

Cheers,
Frankie

[Raindog]

Thanks. Makes it much clearer to me.
Regards
Raindog

[Rosie]

I've never noticed much difference when I use cc11...maybe I just need to make bigger changes? But the same size changes on cc1 with a DXF sample makes changes...

[Will Roget]

Outside of general midi, the difference is all in what you make of it. If you're using something like Kontakt, you can establish your own controllers and what they do. As ernie pointed out, people use CC7 for the global track volume and CC11 for fades/swells/adjustments etc., but there's nothing stopping you from just using one or the other. Or, you can give a little nuance to one of them, for example having CC11 also automate a subtle lowpass filter with the same controller; or having it affect the volume at a rate less than 100% for less drastic fades.

My main complaint about Kontakt2 is that it automatically assumes what you're doing with CC7, and uses that for global volume. This is annoying because it prevents me from doing much of anything else with that controller (requiring an extra controller for some of my Kontakt-1 imports), and it also makes MIDI-reset commands in my sequencer change all the instruments' volume/panning adjustments back to the default, turning that previously useful command into a considerable annoyance.

[Nick Batzdorf]

Or in mixer terms, cc7 is the input (trim) control and cc11 is the fader for riding the level.

But as Will Roget says, you can use cc7 to turn on your coffee machine and cc11 to adjust the level of your toys. They're all freely assignable; the standard assignments are just convention.

[Raindog]

Or in mixer terms, cc7 is the input (trim) control and cc11 is the fader for riding the level.

But as Will Roget says, you can use cc7 to turn on your coffee machine and cc11 to adjust the level of your toys. They're all freely assignable; the standard assignments are just convention.

Unfortunately my coffee machine is pre-midi (crappy old thing). Not sure about my toys. Sounds like a good idea to use midi automation for them, I should give it a try. My wife recently refused to respond to aftertouch but that´s another story :o

Anyway, I think I got the message. Good idea to scale the intensity of the expression controller to have some softer volume modulation.

[Nick Batzdorf]

Actually Will only implied that there were unlimited possibilities - I was the one with the questionable taste to actually say that. :)

[nomuse]

Hrm. Most of the sample/synths I've used, CC7 is just raw volume -- same as front panel volume control. CC11 often has ASDR changes, filter opening and resonance tucked into it (sometimes it barely changes volume at all).

So my read would be that CC7 is the mixer setting or the concert-hall placement (the basic volume), and CC11 is the nuances of the performer, playing harder or softer. But not all libraries agree with this division!

[jerrygerber]

Ctrl 11 can be used for dynamics, crescendos and decrescendos, if they are not already built into the sample. Velocity only affects the volume of the note as it is struck, whereas ctrl 11 can be applied after the note.

Control 7 is used to balance track against track.

However, some synths, even newer software synths, do not respond to ctrol 11, so you have to used ctrl 7 for fade ins or fade outs.

Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com

[ohernie]

But as Will Roget says, you can use cc7 to turn on your coffee machine and cc11 to adjust the level of your toys. They're all freely assignable; the standard assignments are just convention.
Or control your internet enabled refrigerator (remember that?) via MidiOverLAN.

Ernie

[Hardy Heern]

Sorry to spoil the science, but the difference between CC11 and CC7 is, obviously, CC4.......what's the problem?

Frank

[FrozeN]

Sorry to spoil the science, but the difference between CC11 and CC7 is, obviously, CC4.......what's the problem?
Are you sure the first "CC" and the second "CC" don't get phasing problem and cancel each other out to give just a plain "4"? :D :D :D

Cheers,
Frankie

[ohernie]

Classical and Jazz use CC11, rock is CC7.

Ernie

[Theodor]

CC7 is like a track volume/midi channel volume. I find using CC7 for expression very hard: even a small curve can have a lot of volume increase. But after using CC7 for a while instead of CC11, it seems that your mix is much larger for creating contrasts like soft and very loud parts, but it's harder to draw expression because of the volume jumps.

CC11 is like volume within volume. Its better for controlling player or section expression and it seems like the volume increase from 0-127 is not as much as the CC7 would be, sounds like around 70% of CC7.

[Rosie]

I'm not sure if it makes a difference--some people have mentioned "Kontakt 2 lets you..."--I have Sonar 4 and EWQLSO, and when I use cc11, sometimes I think while working on the individual track that I've accomplished something, but when I add the rest of the instruments, I think I was just kidding myself and I can't hear a difference between what I've just done and what it was before.
This isn't something I work with every day, though--I'm a student, and I compose in Sibelius, mix in Sonar, so I don't mess with it unless I have a complete piece to "record." It's been a while since I was working on it...