White Grand 2006 - What would you like?

[Worra]

I'm thinking about making a new White Grand 2006. Using the same piano, same miking but doing it TBO style, that is, with a massive 93 samples/note.

I think that the 93 samples/note, as I used in TBO, worked so great, that I would like to apply that to a piano llike WG.
Now, If I where to do this, would you have any other requests? I guess this question goes to WG users, but all opinions are welcome!

[Laurent]

- 88 sampled notes (even with little less than 93 samples/notes...)
- Recorded impulses for body res.
- White grand like version + natural Malmsjo version (raw samples, no Eq.)
- Upgrade path ;)
- reduction coupon to buy new HD :rolleyes:

[samwhite]

What would I like?
- player position (from the bench) for TBO and WHITE GRAND
- VST version for TBO and WHITE GRAND to use them live with receptor!

[ddarwin7]

Hi Worra

I am going to post everything that comes to my mind, and you can take it for what its worth.

1) 3 mic positions, close, stage, and Ambient just gives the player more flexibility. (Simlar to EWQLSO Platinum micing)

2) Recording style preset NKI's, Gig's etc (Similar to Art Vista VGP), to make it sound as close to the signature sound of different artists. (I've used NKi's and Presets, interchangeablety, but you know what I mean)

3) A really good collection of darker Presets (Nki's, etc) for classical work, something that can stand on its own for solo works. (I've always found that its easier to make a brighter piano sound darker by use of eq and filters, than Vice versa)

4) Nice set of body impulses for the piano.

5) Great Crossgrade offers for registered users.

If I can think of anymore, I'll post it.
- Its just hard to improve something as Incredible as the WG -

[rjdekker]

Hi Worra, Great idea! You certainly can count me in on it....

I can just come up with one suggestion and that is to put some extra care in the tuning during the sampling process, and particularly that of the upper octaves.

I think the current White is really great, but some keys in the upper 2 octaves are out of tune 'within the strings' so to speak....

Can't wait to hear the results!

Rob

[NothanUmber]

Hi,

here some suggestions

1) think about not recording the pedal down samples in favour of sampling every note and working together with Kornel Mezo in order to incooperate his resonance scripts. (I'm using your libraries with PU+Release samples only + the PSR scripts and like them best that way)

2) kindly ask NI when they plan to add this "Layer Morphing Technique" used in the Akoustik Piano to the normal Kontakt 2 program :)

3) consider to additionally/alternatively make something like a "Black Grand Ambient 2006", a TBO++ish Steinway that's recorded to be suitable for classical music would be sooooo great! :D

Greetings,
NothanUmber

[matto]

kindly ask NI when they plan to add this "Layer Morphing Technique" used in the Akoustik Piano to the normal Kontakt 2 program :)
I wonder if this is really necessary with 31 layers...that's a different sample every 4 velocity values...:eek:


consider to additionally/alternatively make something like a "Black Grand Ambient 2006", a TBO++ish Steinway that's recorded to be suitable for classical music would be sooooo great! :D

I second that...or perhaps, how about a Boesendorfer? (you might wanna wait on the Steinway to see what Gary does with the "official" Steinway ;) )...
The WG is really meant to be used in a pop/rock mix, and I'm not sure how much of a difference all those additional velocity layers would make in that context...and with TBO you already have a rather bright sounding mega-layer piano in your product line.
Just my 2 cents, of course!

Cheers,

matto

[Laurent]

1) think about not recording the pedal down samples in favour of sampling every note and working together with Kornel Mezo in order to incooperate his resonance scripts. (I'm using your libraries with PU+Release samples only + the PSR scripts and like them best that way)

Another vote for sampling every notes...
Better to keep pedal down samples however, to fit everybody needs/taste.
I'm also using Kornel script the way Nothan describes, but *sometimes* (depending on the piano), I like keeping pedal down samples together with the script (with adjusted settings). I'm doing this because pedal down samples capture strings resonance AND the global damper-free frame resonance (which is not emulated by kornel script).
I believe that a perfect pedal down emulation would require kornel approach for string resonance + specific convolution for "frame resonance"...I haven't seen this yet.
Beside, I'm still not convinced by convolution-only approach for damper emulation, so Pedal Down notes are still good to sample...

Back to 88 notes sampling : There is a obvious tradeoff between sampling a lot of layers and sampling every notes. Does anyboby have opinion about this ? What is the most important ?

[sghoughton]

As long as its authorized, it should be good. :D

steve

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Back to 88 notes sampling : There is a obvious tradeoff between sampling a lot of layers and sampling every notes. Does anyboby have opinion about this ? What is the most important ?

Well, there is no doubt in my mind that TBO plays like a dream.

So, I am leaning towards layers. I, too, prefer actual pedal downs to convolved pedal downs, even if it means the behavioral aspects are not as accurate. One can always convolve the pedal ups as an alternative if both are recorded. The reverse situation is not true, of course.

I saw a request for player perspective. Personally, that makes my stomach tie up in a knot...so I hope player perspective would not be considered as an only option. I find that to be one of the least useful mic plots when trying to fit a piano into a mix (although I do understand how it feels very "enveloping" to play from a performing standpoint).

[ed hamilton]

I saw a request for player perspective. Personally, that makes my stomach tie up in a knot... I find that to be one of the least useful mic plots when trying to fit a piano into a mix (although I do understand how it feels very "enveloping" to play from a performing standpoint).

Agreed.
Its always fun to play in players perspective for a few minutes but I have never been able to use it in a mix.
Even as a solo piano is disappoints when compared to normal close or mid micing.

my 2cents.

[matto]

Agreed.
Its always fun to play in players perspective for a few minutes but I have never been able to use it in a mix.
Even as a solo piano is disappoints when compared to normal close or mid micing.

my 2cents.

Agreed, it's good for playing, but not for recording...which makes perfect sense when you think about it...

[Hermitage59]

I'm thinking about making a new White Grand 2006. Using the same piano, same miking but doing it TBO style, that is, with a massive 93 samples/note.

I think that the 93 samples/note, as I used in TBO, worked so great, that I would like to apply that to a piano llike WG.
Now, If I where to do this, would you have any other requests? I guess this question goes to WG users, but all opinions are welcome!

Mono.

I know, i know. you're all sick of hearing about it..........:)

[matto]

Mono.

I know, i know. you're all sick of hearing about it..........:)
I don't think mono would make much sense for an instrument that's meant to be used in pop music...for a classical piano, maybe...

[FrozeN]

Man, I really need to get GS3 sooner or later.... :eek:

[NothanUmber]

So, I am leaning towards layers. I, too, prefer actual pedal downs to convolved pedal downs, even if it means the behavioral aspects are not as accurate. One can always convolve the pedal ups as an alternative if both are recorded. The reverse situation is not true, of course.

That's true, having the choice is of course always better. Just wanted to say, that if I had to choose between samples of every note and specific pedal down samples I'd take the first option. (And at least my computer will almost certainly not be capable to handle both simultaneously...)



I saw a request for player perspective. Personally, that makes my stomach tie up in a knot...so I hope player perspective would not be considered as an only option. I find that to be one of the least useful mic plots when trying to fit a piano into a mix (although I do understand how it feels very "enveloping" to play from a performing standpoint).
Is the group of people who just want to play a (even sampled) piano instead of "putting it in a mix" so small that there is no market for such libraries? :( (In the specific case of the Black Grand I find the ambient perspective somehow nicer sounding than the player perspective but in general I would really be glad to see libraries that are specifically optimized for actually playing with them - although other perspectives for people with different needs don't hurt :p ) Just my humble personal opinion of course, but perhaps/hopefully there are others that think in a similar direction and thus such a product would make sense... :)



...or perhaps, how about a Boesendorfer?

Boesendorfers are also nice!

Greetings,
NothanUmber

[Beethree]

Mono.

I know, i know. you're all sick of hearing about it..........:)

Word.
Mono.
I have to say that the Sampletekk pianos are better than most when summed to mono - but SOMEONE has to record a top notch piano specifically for mono use.
This is essential for live use (Yeah, I know, not for everyone) . Even the hardware stage piano manufacturers drop the ball on this.

[Worra]

Taking notes...........

[matto]

Word.
Mono.
SOMEONE has to record a top notch piano specifically for mono use.
This is essential for live use (Yeah, I know, not for everyone) . Even the hardware stage piano manufacturers drop the ball on this.
You know, you're absolutely right...I forgot about live use :o...don't get out much these days :( :D

[Ed Vance]

I think working on the voicing of the piano is really important. Uneven timbre across notes can be really distracting.

I would also like to see all 88 notes sampled with maybe 24 layers? My all time favourite library is the Black Grand close, but I think it would be even better with all notes sampled and a few more layers.

[Brian2112]

I would say that whole tone sampling is fine - until you get to about the E an 8va above middle C. There, I would start in half tones, otherwise you get more "plink" and less tone, even if the sample is stretched down rather than up.

BTW,
TBO and WGII are awesome!!!:D

...2112:)

[sghoughton]

Every note sampled, same layers as TBO.

steve

[Laurent]

What a plebicit for TBO...
I can understand that, among all my pianos I'm using more and more TBO over time !

Well, from the pool multiple layers come first before 88 notes sampling... (Brian comment sounds wise anyway)

This may sounds relieving to Worra, maybe his trick to sample 31 consistent layers is only working with white keys... :D


Taking notes...........
If you take to much notes you will come up with a 30Gb piano...

[Chaim Goldman]

• Be the first one to include a selection of performances.

Gliss up/down multiple tempos

what else?

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I would say that whole tone sampling is fine - until you get to about the E an 8va above middle C. There, I would start in half tones, otherwise you get more "plink" and less tone, even if the sample is stretched down rather than up.

BTW,
TBO and WGII are awesome!!!:D

...2112:)

I concur with this point, and I think that's a really good observation. There is no rule that says the treatment needs to be consistent across the entire keyboard. One could sample the entire instrument chromatically, then pick the logical break-point for actually mapping this way, creating a compromise which might address both sides of the issue best.

Although from my perspective, chromatic sampling to my mind is more of a distribution issue than an end user issue. Drive space is not a precious commoddity.

[Worra]

Great input - keep'm'coming

[NothanUmber]

In that advertisement (http://www.bardstownaudio.com/frames/CD-Bos.html) the bardstown dev is pointing out that he is recording his "velocity layers without [...] filtering in order to produce additional "fake" velocity layers, such has been done by other developers who claim to have eight to sixteen layer sampled pianos".
Well the TBO is a very dynamic sample set, the question how these in-between layers where produced is more or less irrelevant to me as long as the result sounds as convincing as it does with the TBO. If you really record all these 31 layers the following text won't make much sense, but on the other hand, if the intermediate layers are the result of some post-processing steps, wouldn't it somehow be possible to do that in real time? (Perhaps the resulting (even unlooped) piano could completely fit into RAM then.) It's a pity that Kontakt 2 doesn't allow to load arbitrary vsts, that way one could create and insert custom audio effects where appropriate... but perhaps the desired effect is already achievable by automating some effects (filters, eqs etc.) that are already included in K2? Or one could build a vst effect that can be applied after K2 in a chain in a (sub) host program (one would have to use e.g. an external convolution processor for further processing steps afterwards as unfortunately K2 itself can't be used as an audio effect atm. - whould make the setup a little bit more complicated but perhaps one could offer "meta-setups" for the most common combinations with sub hosts like energyXT or Bidule and some common vst effects. (Or perhaps the algorithm needs two adjacent velocity layers in order to compute the in-between one? Then one could run two instances of Kontakt and route them into the "morpher effect" (that also has a midi in in order to be able to take the current velocity value into account) - should all be possible with such a modular approach)). With such a tool/setup chain one would have a template that could be used as a starting point to enhance the playability of every available piano library what would give a great additional value to such a product, I hope it's not a big problem to convince people that "big numbers" are not neccessarily better and sophisticated real time computing/processing techniques can sometimes deliver comparable (or even better) results than a "brute force as-much-samples-as-your-harddrive-can-store" approach.

NothanUmber

[Worra]

In that advertisement (http://www.bardstownaudio.com/frames/CD-Bos.html) the bardstown dev is pointing out that he is recording his "velocity layers without [...] filtering in order to produce additional "fake" velocity layers, such has been done by other developers who claim to have eight to sixteen layer sampled pianos".
Well the TBO is a very dynamic sample set, the question how these in-between layers where produced is more or less irrelevant to me as long as the result sounds as convincing as it does with the TBO. If you really record all these 31 layers the following text won't make much sense, but on the other hand, if the intermediate layers are the result of some post-processing steps, wouldn't it somehow be possible to do that in real time? (Perhaps the resulting (even unlooped) piano could completely fit into RAM then.) It's a pity that Kontakt 2 doesn't allow to load arbitrary vsts, that way one could create and insert custom audio effects where appropriate... but perhaps the desired effect is already achievable by automating some effects (filters, eqs etc.) that are already included in K2? Or one could build a vst effect that can be applied after K2 in a chain in a (sub) host program (one would have to use e.g. an external convolution processor for further processing steps afterwards as unfortunately K2 itself can't be used as an audio effect atm. - whould make the setup a little bit more complicated but perhaps one could offer "meta-setups" for the most common combinations with sub hosts like energyXT or Bidule and some common vst effects. (Or perhaps the algorithm needs two adjacent velocity layers in order to compute the in-between one? Then one could run two instances of Kontakt and route them into the "morpher effect" (that also has a midi in in order to be able to take the current velocity value into account) - should all be possible with such a modular approach)). With such a tool/setup chain one would have a template that could be used as a starting point to enhance the playability of every available piano library what would give a great additional value to such a product, I hope it's not a big problem to convince people that "big numbers" are not neccessarily better and sophisticated real time computing/processing techniques can sometimes deliver comparable (or even better) results than a "brute force as-much-samples-as-your-harddrive-can-store" approach.

NothanUmber

Interesting points!

Just for the record: ALL samples and velocity layers in TBO (and in all other SampleTekk pianos), are recorded.
No post-processing in order to produce more velocitysamples has been made.
So in TBO's case, all 93 samples/recorded note are actual unique, recorded samples.
The change in timbre between the samples are a result from how the piano sounds, not a result of filtering or any other processing
This is what makes SampleTekk's pianos unique.

[NothanUmber]

Just for the record: ALL samples and velocity layers in TBO (and in all other SampleTekk pianos), are recorded.
No post-processing in order to produce more velocitysamples has been made.
So in TBO's case, all 93 samples/recorded note are actual unique, recorded samples.

Thanks for clarifying that point! (It's a pity as the "real-time approach" won't work then as there is not really anything to calculate - but sound comes first, please continue to make your libraries as convincing as possible with whatever approach you prefer - even if that means that your next piano should be delivered on 10+ blueray discs :) )

NothanUmber

[Bruce A. Richardson]

So far, none of the alternative technologies I have heard are comparable with the brute force methods used to date for pianos. TBO is definitely more expressive than pianos with fewer layers. It is fantastic to hear and feel the difference it makes to get all those discrete string attacks, with their own genuine sustains.

TBO gives the player a sense of inertia being overcome as it is being played. That is a very nice thing, rare in samples. Usually, it feels more as if you press a key, then feel the tone is "running away from you" rather than pressing back against you.

[Laurent]

Interesting points!

Just for the record: ALL samples and velocity layers in TBO (and in all other SampleTekk pianos), are recorded.
No post-processing in order to produce more velocitysamples has been made.
So in TBO's case, all 93 samples/recorded note are actual unique, recorded samples.
The change in timbre between the samples are a result from how the piano sounds, not a result of filtering or any other processing
This is what makes SampleTekk's pianos unique.
Another advantage of the "brute force as-much-samples-as-your-harddrive-can-store approach" is to achieve some kind of "round robin" effect, as the chance to trigger twice the same sample in a short period of time is very low... (even intentionaly, what pianist have the touch to predictabily control 31 velocity step with each 10 fingers... humm... not me...) :rolleyes:

[howardv]

How about a package deal including both K2 and GS3 libraries? Just for those times when I'd otherwise be forced to either to freeze or run 2 sample engines at the same time.

Howard

[Hermitage59]

The point was made about Mono only being really useful for Clasical music.
That's what i'd like a decent piano for. Classical work. I have an old Steinway soundfont that doesn't sound great in pop, but has a superb tone in classical fare. The two styles don't mix, so i ask, don't mix them.

So,

Mono, full sound without being spread. I'd like to place the instrument, particularly in strong dynamic, not have it smother everything else. The tone should be distinctive rather than all encompassing.

No player perspective, basically unuseable in classical solo work.

Every note/dynamic recorded. No reprocessed samples.

Natural pedal up down recorded. Convolved sounds fake.

Layering to the point of every normal dynamic, with an extra layer between mp and mf to keep transitions to a minimum.

And above all else, a great natural tone with minimal processing.

Better still, build two. One with the slighter brighter sound of 17th/18th century, and the other with 19th/20th full sound (without the rumble of too many mids), bright in the upper registers, without the plink.

Finally, Bruce made a great point about the sound 'running away', as opposed to the tone backing right up on the note, giving the player some 'bite' back.
Completely agree with him, and add my vote.

This should be enough to go on with, yes?

Regards,

Alex.

[jimmymio]

The point was made about Mono only being really useful for Clasical music.
That's what i'd like a decent piano for. Classical work. I have an old Steinway soundfont that doesn't sound great in pop, but has a superb tone in classical fare. The two styles don't mix, so i ask, don't mix them.



Are we still talking about the WG here? Unless the WGII is going to be a 180 degree departure, I would suggest you look elsewhere for a piano for "Classical" music. Maybe Black Grand or TBO?
JP

[Perry Diddle]

Three things I would like to see (hear):

1.) PLEASE pay someone to keep the piano in tune for the WHOLE recording sessions. I love the bite of WG but that thing has tuning issues, not nearly as bad as the Art Vista (nothing is that bad), but still it keeps me from using it in places where it would otherwise normally work well.

2.) A reasonable "upgrade/crossgrade" path for WG/WS owners to get that great sounding piano but tuned well this time. I don't really care about 9 zillion layers, they are nice like with TBO, but I use my EMU Proformance Plus module ONE layer piano alot because it sounds great in a mix and doesn't jump out when out-of-tune notes/chords are struck like with many piano libraries out today. A few great layers will do the job so I'd say pay attention to quality not quantity. One bad apple.......

3.) A very dry, clean perspective with very particular attention paid to the stereo field/phasing.

Thanks!

[Beethree]

What I want:
A very dry piano recorded specifically in mono for live use. No one has done this.
I have to say though, the White Grand and White Grand Jr. sound better in mono than any sampled piano I've listened to or played.