Slightly OT: A question of ergonomics.

[chriscaouette]

Hi all,
Before I plunk down a good sum of money on a new desk I wanted to get some users opinions. Many times in a composing setup I see the the layout with the 88 note k/b first, and the qwerty above/behind it. Most desks though, including the Omnirax I currently use, put the qwerty first. This means to get close enough the qwerty shelf will hit my legs and if I lower the chair the 88 note keyboard is a little higher than I like.

I have been looking at the Argosy Dual 15k. My three choices are; separate the composing from the mixing station (although they usually coincide), just keep dealing with the way I have it, or get the Argosy and sell off the Omnirax. There are many composers here so please share your opinions on what works for you ergonomically.
Thanks!
Chris

[thesoundsmith]

A few ideas, take 'em or leave 'em - may give you some ideas in return:

Put the Qwerty on a swing-arm style movable shelf, keep it out of the way when you're playing, swing it back right over the keys as needed, or work to the side.

Consider a remote like the Tranzport. I don't know what you're using your qwerty for but a lot of the stuff I do isstuff that Tranzport does and is a very cool tool to have in a DAW environment.

Make a little shelf big enough for the qwerty and mouse that will mount directly behind the keys and rest on the back edge.

I have a flexible keyboard that is thin enough to slide under my mixer, it would be easy to raise the edges of the keys just 1/2" so the qwerty could slide under, and pull out when needed.

Consider getting a keyboard controller that has a place allocated for the qwerty, there is at least one like this, though I don't remember whose.

In the end, your workflow determines what works best for you ergonomically, ergo detailing how I am set up is probably not that much help - I usually don't write to score progs, I primarily play my lines in live. But some more typical composers may have useful suggestions.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Be very careful with the computer keyboard above configuration. That only works if you do very little keyboard manipulation. Otherwise you're headed for a shoulder impingement. Trust me, you do not want to go there. Excruciating physical therapy and anti-inflammatories that no one should be taking are the only way to get it back under control once the impingement has flared up. It just stays flared.

Ouch.

[Tom Crowning]

If you work a couple of hours each day none of this configurations will be
healthy.
Try something that can move the qwerty out of the way when not needed.

I use the configuration below, when I play the keyboard the qwerty is
below the main desk.
Additionally it's a good idea the have a chair which can easily be moved
back- and forward because fighting with the chair 50 times a day isn't
good for your back, either.

My desk (yep, it's tiny compared to what you guys are used to see :) )

http://www.tom-crowning.com/pub/Crowning-Studios.jpg

[buzzripper]

I can't stand those pullout keyboard shelves, probably cause I'm too tall.

I have a wireless computer keyboard, and I glued 4 neoprene squares to the bottom of it, and I set it right on top of my keyboard controller. Make the squares higher than your keyboard knobs so it doesn't mash 'em, and you're good to go. Might not be good if you access your keyboard controller's knobs often, but I hardly ever touch mine so it works for me. Being wireless it doubles as a poor man's tranzport, which is cool when I'm tracking guitar or something, albeit a bit more clunky...


buzz

[buzzripper]

Hey Tom, what's the remote for?

[Bela D Media]

I was able to find some great desks that are just office furniture. Sorry for the blurry pics:

http://www.beladmedia.com/picts/about-studio1.jpg

http://www.beladmedia.com/picts/about-studio2.jpg

Theses are old shots. We have a 5.1 video setup in there now with a 32" LCD TV ;) and we also brought in some outboard gear. Compressors and etc with a patch bay.

[buzzripper]

Hey soundsmith, you've probably been asked this before but...
it says you joined the forum in 1969 - isn't that even before Al Gore invented the internet?
:D


buzz

[Nick Batzdorf]

http://homepage.mac.com/virtualinstruments/site/PhotoAlbum9.html

(fixed link)

I have a sliding desktop that goes over the MIDI keyboard. The computer keyboard goes right over the keys when the desktop is pushed forward (the photo doesn't show this, but I move it right to the edge), and when it's back I have a big desk to work on.

Believe it or not, it took me years to figure this out.

And I agree 100% with what Bruce says about keyboard drawers being all wrong. You want your forearms resting on the desk when you're typing. "Computer desks" treat the computer as an afterthought.

[Bela D Media]

Password Nick?

PS. Wireless keyboards (typing) are great but wireless mouses suck major! (IMO only)

[Nick Batzdorf]

You shouldn't need one. Let me fix that.

[Bela D Media]

You shouldn't need one. Let me fix that.

You Mac guys! ;)

[Nick Batzdorf]

It's not "Mac," it's .Mac, as in dot-Mac. They make it so patronizingly simple that it's impossible to figure out.

Okay, I think it's fixed now.

[Bela D Media]

http://homepage.mac.com/virtualinstruments/NicksRoom/PhotoAlbum5.html
The images in each photo album are redXed

[buzzripper]

PS. Wireless keyboards (typing) are great but wireless mouses suck major! (IMO only)

Why, Bela? I got four of 'em and I think they're great....:confused:


buzz

[Bela D Media]

Maybe its just the one I have but it always freaks out and the receiver is 2 feet away. New batteries too. :mad:

[artsoundz]

why do wireless mouse's(meese?) suck?

[buzzripper]

why do wireless mouse's(meese?) suck?

I believe the correct spelling is 'meeses', as in "I hates meeses to pieces"
:D





buzz

(still working on getting that post count up....)

[buzzripper]

Maybe its just the one I have but it always freaks out and the receiver is 2 feet away. New batteries too. :mad:

Yeah, you should try a different one, they're usually fine. I'm spoiled, I'll never go back. I have good luck with Logitech, I have a couple of theirs that have charging bases, never need to worry about batteries. Nice.

[Bela D Media]

Yeah, you should try a different one, they're usually fine. I'm spoiled, I'll never go back. I have good luck with Logitech, I have a couple of theirs that have charging bases, never need to worry about batteries. Nice.

Will do. Mine is made by Dell. That says it all I guess. LOL

[Brian2112]

Yea - Red X here too!:p

I wanna see the Ape's studio!:(

[Nick Batzdorf]

Mouse's means it belongs to the mouse.

That mistakes one of the thing's that bother's me about life. Dont they teach you kid's anything these day's?

Francis, you're welcome to run those pix through a CMYK filter for your dancing and viewing enjoyment. :) I could figure out how to do that, but on the other hand there are so many apostrophe mistakes and so little time...

:samurai:

[Aaron Dirk]

me too! This is the direction I want to go, I'm tired of resting my elbows on my keys

[Nick Harvey]

The way I've dealt with the 'bad back, stiff neck' problem was by buying a controller keyboard (the excellent UME UF7) that had space in the middle to stick my computer keyboard. These then slide part of the way under my main desk and are at a good height for both playing and typing.

http://www.messhead.com/messhead_cockpit.jpg

Nick


-----------------------
www.messhead.com

[Bela D Media]

The way I've dealt with the 'bad back, stiff neck' problem was by buying a controller keyboard (the excellent UME UF7) that had space in the middle to stick my computer keyboard. These then slide part of the way under my main desk and are at a good height for both playing and typing.

http://www.messhead.com/messhead_cockpit.jpg

Nick


-----------------------
www.messhead.com (http://www.messhead.com)

Sweet setup Nick! How's the Mackie controller working for you?

[Daryl]

Password Nick?

PS. Wireless keyboards (typing) are great but wireless mouses suck major! (IMO only)
Actually I've found the opposite. I'm very happy with my laser mouse; it fits into the palm of my hand perfectly and is very accurate. Mind you the previous wireless mouse went into the bin on day one with the keyboard following it a couple of days later :>)

D

[Daryl]

Now having read all these suggestions I'm even more in the dark as to the best set-up for my new space. I can't see anywhere in any of them to put the manuscript paper....! Any suggestions (clean only, please).

D

[Nick Harvey]

Sweet setup Nick! How's the Mackie controller working for you?


Thanks Bela D. It's actually a Logic Control that I've had for a few years now, and it works like a dream!

Nick

[Tom Crowning]

Hey soundsmith, you've probably been asked this before but...
it says you joined the forum in 1969 - isn't that even before Al Gore invented the internet?
:D


buzz

Hehe, great one :)

But you're wrong, the internet was invented by Bill Gates in his garage :D

[Tom Crowning]

Hey Tom, what's the remote for?

It's for the subwoofer. With the remote you can adjust the overall volume
(but I use my mixer for this), the volume of the subwoofer itself (I only
needed that once to callibrate the subwoofers) and most important you
can mute the subwoofer to double check how the music sounds without
subwoofer.
A nice thing to have :)

Tom

[buzzripper]

It's for the subwoofer. With the remote you can adjust the overall volume

That's what I was wondering, I have one for my Alesis 5.1 system and was wondering if it was something similar.


buzz

[Nick Batzdorf]

Hey Brian and Frank, are you saying that you can't see my pix at all, or just that they have an orange glow?

[Hermitage59]

Hey Brian and Frank, are you saying that you can't see my pix at all, or just that they have an orange glow?

Can't see them at all Nick. I'm on Mac, and get the little blue question mark for each.

Alex.

[Nick Batzdorf]

How positively weird. I can see them fine.

Okay, let me fool around some more.

[Bela D Media]

Check the directory of the pictures and that they are pointing to www. and not your desktop or HD location.

[chriscaouette]

Thanks for all the input guys. Looks like I will stick with how I have it set up now but with some minor tweaking.

Nick, I cannot see our pics either.

Chris

[Nick Batzdorf]

~~~~. ~~~~ing .Mac.

I'm trying to create a new site (because only sites can be protected individually, not pages, and I have stuff up there that I can't leave open to the world), and it's not letting me do that.

Really annoying.

I'll have to wait for tech support to get back to me.

[Nick Batzdorf]

http://homepage.mac.com/virtualinstruments/site/PhotoAlbum9.html

Okay, give that a try.

[vegas]

there you go..works fine now.

your cat dead?;)

[Nick Batzdorf]

She's in the process of attacking something - probably our other cat - in the picture. Not at all dead. :)

[Bela D Media]

Only 12 hours later and you got it to work, huh? ;)
Very nice rig!

[chriscaouette]

I see it now. Covering up all but the keys would work for me because I need all the controls on the board as well. This sure is a great way to see everyone's setups though! :cool:

Chris

[Hermitage59]

Nice setup Nick.

Chair looks comfortable. What's the blue box on the desk between the other keyboard and the qwerty?

Regards,

Alex.

[Nick Batzdorf]

That box is the Blue Sky BMC (Bass Management Controller) - a level control for my speakers. It's a very cool box. Digitally-controlled analog.

For openers, it powers up with the speakers muted, which is good if you're using things that have the potential to make ugly noises when they start up (such as sound cards in slave computers that are looking for clocks to latch on to).

But then it has a Ref button that jumps to your reference level setting, regardless of where the volume control is, so you can toggle between two levels: the Ref level and the volume encoder level. Normally I have the volume control set very low, so I can dim the sound, but it's also useful for checking mixes at moderately low levels while you're working.

It also has a built-in crossover, which means you can turn off the sub as a reference. I'm only set up for stereo, but it can work in 5.1 surround.

And of course you can calibrate it to the nth degree.

More than you wanted to know, I bet. :)

The chair is an Aeron. That's the chaise de rigeur for studios. I don't just like it, I love it.

Francis: :samurai: :samurai: :samurai: :samurai: :samurai: :samurai:

[Hermitage59]

More than you wanted to know, I bet. :)

The chair is an Aeron. That's the chaise de rigeur for studios. I don't just like it, I love it.

Nope, the info's good, thanks. The more the better. And you're not the first to commend the blue sky configuration.

Do the arms lift out of the way on the chair? I've got broad shoulders, and have no end of trouble in ordinary chairs, because the arms are usually set too narrow, and i end up with cramp.

Alex.

[Nick Batzdorf]

The arms can splay out:

\ /

The chair also comes in three sizes. I'm a pretty big guy and have fairly broad shoulders too, and it's not a problem for me.

People seem to either love Aerons or not like them at all. I haven't heard anyone with a neutral opinion. Most people love them, which is why they're so popular.

They're on the expensive side, but well worth it if you sit on your rear end all day.

[Nick Batzdorf]

http://www.hermanmiller.com/CDA/SSA/Product/0,1592,a10-c440-p8,00.html

There you go.

[JDK Music]

Another possibility that seems to fit what you're looking for - a custom made cabinet. For me, this was less expensive than pre-made options. I use this for hours every day with no problems.

http://www.jdkmusic.com/Pictures/console

[Hermitage59]

The arms can splay out:

\ /

The chair also comes in three sizes. I'm a pretty big guy and have fairly broad shoulders too, and it's not a problem for me.

People seem to either love Aerons or not like them at all. I haven't heard anyone with a neutral opinion. Most people love them, which is why they're so popular.

They're on the expensive side, but well worth it if you sit on your rear end all day.

Nick, there's nothing about prices on the site that i can find. (Thanks for the link)
What's an average?


Alex.

[Richard N.]

After many years of experimentation I have come up with this layout which works really well for me:

http://www.stradjazz.com/DeskLayout.jpg

http://www.stradjazz.com/RichNphoto.jpg

http://www.stradjazz.com/RichNphoto1.jpg

It's basically two office type desks laid out in an "L" shape with a smaller desk that holds two midi keyboards (one 88 keys with no knobs, one 61 keys with more knobs and sliders than you could wish for! :) ).

I have a 19" CRT screen, computer keyboard and mouse arranged in the corner of the desk "L" [like many would at work] and then I have a 19" LCD, computer keyboard and mouse arranged next to the midi keyboards.

Both sets of screen/computer keyboard/mouse are attached to the same PC.

In the middle of the setup I have a good comfortable swivel chair on castors.

With this setup, if I am entering realtime music I face the midi keyboards and use the screen behind them; if I am editing or doing stuff that does not need a music keyboard I swivel around to thedesk setup, to where I can easily move the window containing the stuff I am working on.

It works for me!!

[Nick Batzdorf]

$750 or $800 for the fully-adjustable model, which is the one to get (no point in cheaping out if you're going that far). Also, they make them with two kinds of lumbar supports; the newer version is slightly more expensive, but I tried them both and found the older one more comfortable.

[Nick Batzdorf]

http://www.sit4less.com/aeronchairs/aeronchair.html

There you go.

****
I had that set-up before this one, Richard (anyone for a great deal on an Ikea corner desk? :) ), but found it a big nuisance having to move between the MIDI keyboard and computer.

[Hermitage59]

$750 or $800 for the fully-adjustable model, which is the one to get (no point in cheaping out if you're going that far). Also, they make them with two kinds of lumbar supports; the newer version is slightly more expensive, but I tried them both and found the older one more comfortable.

Thanks. I did expect along the lines of 1000, so i've been pleasantly surprised.

Of course when you convert that into pounds, and add the chancellor's grubby slice, 750 or 800 pounds sounds about right.

Alex.

[commalot]

On the question of ergonomics and as a beginner I was wondering about the proper setup of the piano keyboard. I found this web page http://www.balancedpianist.com/bpseatingguide.htm and was curious as to how you like it. Apparently the forearms should be parallel to the floor.

Dave

[Nick Batzdorf]

If I remember right, piano keyboards are 29" above the floor (it might be 29-1/2" - I forget). I measured our upright and put my keyboard at that height.

After that you just need to adjust the height of your chair to get your forearms where they feel comfortable. Bear in mind that composition can be different from piano playing. You're working with the computer as much as playing, so the position may need to be a compromise.

[Bela D Media]

Francis: :samurai: :samurai: :samurai: :samurai: :samurai: :samurai:

Yes? (Gulp)

[Brian2112]

Nice setup Nick. Where do you keep your bannanas?
And I agree that the cat looks dead.

...2112

[chriscaouette]

So I tweaked and tweaked and I am just too darn tall. at 6'4.5" there is no real comfortable way to have the keyboard shelf underneath the midi controller. Using an expression pedal is nearly impossible. I will either have to set up a 2nd station with a mirrored monitor/extra speakers/keyboard and mouse or get the Argosy station with the mix shelf which puts the qwerty directly over the controller.

http://www.argosyconsole.com/d15k.htm

My current desk is an Omnirax Force 36 which wasn't built for a keyboard.
http://www.omnirax.com/site/show_product.asp?pid=64&cid=7

I am leaning more towards the split system and adding a us2400 controller but that Argosy sure does look sweet and I could sell off the Omnirax.


Chris

[MikeGraybill]

I compromised, controller's a bit on the high side, with a well placed comp keyboard, since I really do use it more frequently. My chair raises to a decent spot so it's not too bad when I just wanna play, but it'd be nice to get it just right some day.

I couldn't stand the thought of having to get up and move somewhere else depending on the task, so the goal was to get it all right next to me. I basically mangled an office depot style desk and rebuilt it to make this work, but I ended up with a nice space in front of the smaller controller for a staff-paper notebook and drink area.

The little Oxygen 8 controller's off to the left for knobs and such, and the mixing board is rackmounted for the right hand to get at easily. The other computers can be accessed via KVM switch to my right between the crt and mixer, which alternates the left monitor to the other machines, which are in a different room (finally.) Generally I like it, now if only I could get this stuff into a different space.. the sonics could be worse - but not by much.

http://www.afreeimagehost.com/upload/13264/Studio-021_reducedforweb.jpg

[Tom Crowning]

So I tweaked and tweaked and I am just too darn tall. at 6'4.5" there is no real comfortable way to have the keyboard shelf underneath the midi controller. Using an expression pedal is nearly impossible.

I had the same problem with the expression pedal, so I increased the high
of my desk for about 4 inch. No big deal.

Tom

[Nick Harvey]

I did too. Oh, the wonder of wooden blocks!

[chriscaouette]

Trouble with that is the keyboard would be far to high to play. I will come up with something over the weekend.
Chris

[Nick Harvey]

Well I increased the height of my desk so that my keyboard (with the computer keyboard on top) could fit part of the way under it to enable me to to be closer to the Logic Control which sits on the desk.

[chriscaouette]

I was able to find some great desks that are just office furniture. Sorry for the blurry pics:

Theses are old shots. We have a 5.1 video setup in there now with a 32" LCD TV ;) and we also brought in some outboard gear. Compressors and etc with a patch bay.

Bela, this setup interests me the most. I do more than just composing in the studio so likely having multiple stations would serve me best.
I love all the studio pics!
:D

[Tom Crowning]

...one 61 keys with more knobs and sliders than you could wish for!



Hey, that looks like my M-Audio Evolution MK-461C.
I know how much fun it is when you've assigned all those knobs
of your VIs to that keyboard :)

Good choice.

Tom

[Richard N.]

Hey, that looks like my M-Audio Evolution MK-461C.
I know how much fun it is when you've assigned all those knobs
of your VIs to that keyboard :)

Good choice.

Tom

Tom - well spotted, you are abolutely correct.

It's absolutely great isn't it!

[thesoundsmith]

Hey soundsmith, you've probably been asked this before but...
it says you joined the forum in 1969 - isn't that even before Al Gore invented the internet?
:D You'd have to ask Al. Actually the one responsible for the internet was ME!!! :D

The first step was to connect two computers together with a tin can on each end connected by a string. To attach to the computer, required a gold band attached to the serial port. This was the world's first two-can ring network.

Then i got the idea to take a piece of wood, drive eight nails into it and connect a string and tincan to each nail, so eight computers could connect at once. From there, we replaced the string with miles of telephone line, and voila - the internet... :cool:

[analogue]

http://www.messhead.com/messhead_cockpit.jpg

Nick, what is the acoustic treatment behind the monitors?

[Nick Harvey]

Hi analogue.

It's called Primakit by a company called Primacoustics. I'd moved studio and the acoustics were truly awful. After reading a great review in Music Tech magazine about this product - you can download a pdf of it here http://www.musictechmag.co.uk/mtm/reviews/primakit - I went out and got the package that went with the dimensions of my room.

To be honest it has worked an absolute treat. The hollow box-room sound has been transformed into a really tight little acoustic space.

Highly recommened. Oh, and it's relatively inexpensive too.

Cheers,

Nick

-----------------------
www.messhead.com

[Nick Batzdorf]

That's part of an ASC Mix Station: http://www.acousticsciences.com/mixstation/

I don't have the whole thing up (since the window in front is important - the shutters are only closed for the picture) and I don't agree with the concept of having muffling on the sides. The Sound Plank diffusors are also unnecessary in my room, so I don't have them up either.

What you don't really see in the pictures is that those wall baffles are behind the plane of the speakers angled in, so all the muffling is behind them. The baffles work really well, but the idea of a "reflection-free zone" is a load of bollox. Clean reflections from the sides help the imaging.

However, the actual baffles work really well for broadband absorption - they really help the sound.

I also have two bass traps at the front of the room (Helmholtz resonators) behind the subwoofer.

[Nick Batzdorf]

Or did you mean the other Nick?

Well, the ASC stuff is worth hearing about either way.

[Nick Harvey]

Yours is MUCH sexier than mine Nick. :)

And I WANT your chair! My Ikea rubbish is giving me an awful posture. I'm sure I could gain an extra couple of inches on my dwarfish frame with the help of an Aeron...or a rack.


-----------------------
www.messhead.com

[chriscaouette]

Well I decided to go with the Argosy desk and have put my Omnirax Force 36 on ebay. It is listed at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7391888638 if anyone is interested.
I will be sure to put a picture up when the new one arrives.
Chris