Can we throw away all our cables except ethernet?

[MikeShapiro]

This is only semi-topical, but since there's been a lot of discussion of network transmission of formerly proprietary audio-related data in a Giga context, I thought it would be reasonable to post something general on the topic.

Between MOL, Giga-Teleport and/or Wormhole, and now VNC applications, it seems like it's possible to move a studio's entire data flow to a general-purpose ethernet connection. I'm curious how much digital traffic along these lines a typical local network can take before its performance degrades below the level of traditional connections.

For example, is it reasonable to network two Giga PC's to a host machine, sending their audio through Teleport or Wormhole, doing MIDI exclusively via MOLCP, and using a VNC solution to view the Giga machines' video output and send mouse/keyboard commands, all at once? Has anyone tried this sort of "everything by ethernet" solution and gotten good results?

[Mattias Henningson]

It's definitely possible, and I've been using the setup now for almost two years. 4 machines, one sequencer and three servers. No monitor, keyboard, mouse or soundcard on the servers. I have a gigabit network based on an ordinary 8-port gigabit switch and I'm using the FXTeleport/Giga VST Adapter combination to send midi and audio back and forth between the machines. MS Remote Desktop is used to control the servers. Works well enough for me whatever that means... :) I'm not always using all servers at once, for most projects one or two servers is enough.

I will admit there are times when I miss having sound cards in the machines, but the pros are definitely dominating.

/Mattias

[geronimo001]

It's definitely possible, and I've been using the setup now for almost two years. 4 machines, one sequencer and three servers. No monitor, keyboard, mouse or soundcard on the servers. I have a gigabit network based on an ordinary 8-port gigabit switch and I'm using the FXTeleport/Giga VST Adapter combination to send midi and audio back and forth between the machines. MS Remote Desktop is used to control the servers. Works well enough for me whatever that means... :) I'm not always using all servers at once, for most projects one or two servers is enough.

I will admit there are times when I miss having sound cards in the machines, but the pros are definitely dominating.

/Mattias

That's good to hear Mattias:cool: , i did exaxtly the opposite caus i was afraid of that, it sounded complicated and all, i like to keep it simple but i know i will regret it when comes the time to bounce all my audio;). I might change my mind though, but i feel i have more power whit this setup + i'm old fashion even if i'm newbe:D .


I will admit there are times when I miss having sound cards in the machines,

When?

[Deak]

Mathias, when you say ordinary switch, what do you mean? I was just looking at adding another gigabit switch. I already have a Netgear switch and was going to buy another one that was on sale. The sale item was a Netgear but a different model. I compared the two and see that my original has more throughput or something than this other model that is on sale. Sorry I can't remember the specifics. I am not sure what this means and if it matters. Any idea what I am talking about?

[Mattias Henningson]

Mathias, when you say ordinary switch, what do you mean?
I just meant that it's no high-end expensive switch, just one of the switches you can buy almost everywhere nowadays. If you want to check something, check the back-plane speed (bandwith) to make sure it can sustain high speeds even if you use several ports simultaneously.

/Mattias

[Mattias Henningson]

I might change my mind though, but i feel i have more power whit this setup
If you have the gear, why not. :) I realized that I sooner or later would end of in an all-software solution and simply decided to try it right away. I guess I was one of the first to go all ethernet as I was even using a beta version of FXT/GVA in the beginning...

The main issue I have is when running out of processing power on the sequencer machine and I need to bump the latency setting in order to continue working. This causes the latency to the servers to change as well and makes tracking using instruments on the servers pretty much impossible... As long as you keep the latency low everything works smooth. One thing that would be interesting to have is a possibility to deactivate delay compensations and things like that and make the software solution work more like the hardware counterpart. Send and receive as fast as possible, period.

/Mattias

[mutato5]

I have a friend doing the same as Mattias. He runs Nuendo on a PC and three Giga Studios using Giga Teleport. He remotely administers them with a Remote Administration App and says it works great.

As for myself I have three Macs and four gigas and do everything remotely (over giga bit lan) except for the audio. I still mix everything in a digital mixer and the mixer goes 24 channels into Logic via Firewire.

[mckelly]

I have a friend doing the same as Mattias. He runs Nuendo on a PC and three Giga Studios using Giga Teleport. He remotely administers them with a Remote Administration App and says it works great.

As for myself I have three Macs and four gigas and do everything remotely (over giga bit lan) except for the audio. I still mix everything in a digital mixer and the mixer goes 24 channels into Logic via Firewire.

I was curious as how you go about connecting the pcs to your mac. I know that apps like FX teleport are pc only. I would like to dedicate a pc to running VSTs but I don't want to bother with additional hardware.

Thanks a lot.

MK

[mutato5]

Mckelly,

For Midi I use Midi over Lan by www.musiclab.com

For Remote Adminstration I use Apple Remote Desktop. http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/

And for the client software on the pc side I use RealVNC client software.
http://www.realvnc.com/

Cheers,

[MikeShapiro]

I was curious as how you go about connecting the pcs to your mac. I know that apps like FX teleport are pc only. I would like to dedicate a pc to running VSTs but I don't want to bother with additional hardware.

Thanks a lot.

MK

There's a cross-platform program called Wormhole2 that offers similar functionality to FX/Giga teleport.

[mckelly]

Awesome. thanks a bunch.

Btw, what's the difference between a gigabit network interface and a 10/100 network interface?

-MK

[mckelly]

Oh, can I use the "remote desktop" offered by microsoft instead of apple's? Do they serve the same function?

best,

Mk

[Deak]

Gigabit ethernet is 1000Mbits per second versus 100 or 10 Mbits per secoond. The faster the speed and the more throughput the better at handling the demands of real time audio. I hope that helps.

Regarding RemoteDesktop, if you are using Windows then you would use the MS Remote Desktop insterad of Apple.

[Leftfield42]

First post, so please forgive a kinda newbie's lack of present day knowledge... :o

I am putting together a 'studio' for want of a better word, and though I haven't actually purchased the software yet, have a fair bit of 'oldish' hardware that I'd like to use for the production of my music. One particular PC I have is a WinXP Athlon 3200+ running with 2 gigs of DDR-400 memory and a two disc 7200 rpm Raid-0 SATA1 array that I'd like to use as a GS3 Orchestra machine (besides its use as a software dev machine). I connect to the machine using Remote Desktop, so would like to use that to pass the MIDI in and maybe even get the audio out (though I'm happy to do that with the old SB Live! soundcard I put in the machine). The control computer (of similar spec) I am going to get Cubase SX for.

My intention in software purchases is to get GS3 Orchestra, Cubase SX 3 (Full Version), and Giga or FX Teleport. But what else will I need (if anything) to complete an ethernet connection between my control computer and the GS3 PC successfully? From what I've read on the forum so far I don't believe I need anything more, but is that right?

TIA,

Leftfield

[MikeShapiro]

Mckelly,

For Remote Adminstration I use Apple Remote Desktop. http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/

And for the client software on the pc side I use RealVNC client software.
http://www.realvnc.com/

Cheers,

Mutato5,

I've been trying out RealVNC and ChickenOfTheVNC on the Mac side. I find the response speed to be usable, but very slow and jerky. Are your experiences with Apple Remote Desktop any different?

Mike

[mutato5]

Mike,

I have found the set-up very user friendly with very little lag time. If you are already using Gigabit ethernet it just may be Chickens code handles a little different then Apple's. Another cool thing in "ARD", in the adminstrator's upper right-hand corner window Apple has a handy little slide bar that allows the client/adminitrator speed ratio to speed up or slow down. The down side about "ARD" is the price.

[MikeShapiro]

Mike,

I have found the set-up very user friendly with very little lag time. If you are already using Gigabit ethernet it just may be Chickens code handles a little different then Apple's. Another cool thing in "ARD", in the adminstrator's upper right-hand corner window Apple has a handy little slide bar that allows the client/adminitrator speed ratio to speed up or slow down. The down side about "ARD" is the price.

Thanks for the feedback, Mutato5. I'm only running 10/100, so perhaps that's responsible for the lag. I might as well upgrade the ethernet speed first (since that seems like a generally good idea) before slapping down the several hundred dollars for ARD.

[mutato5]

The setup will definately be more responsive after you upgrade the whole ethernet path and switch. Let me know how it goes...

[Deak]

Remote Administrator is a great program. It only sends commands - keystrokes, mouse clicks etc. There is no video or other high bandwith crossing the lines. So the response is much better than you will get with other VNC programs. It is only like $35 for a license. It covers two machines.

[Mattias Henningson]

I've been trying out RealVNC and ChickenOfTheVNC on the Mac side. I find the response speed to be usable, but very slow and jerky. Are your experiences with Apple Remote Desktop any different?

Mike, are you're only controlling PC's from your Mac? If so did you try Microsofts Remote Desktop already? The performance is far far better than any of the VNC versions.

/Mattias

[MikeShapiro]

Mike, are you're only controlling PC's from your Mac? If so did you try Microsofts Remote Desktop already? The performance is far far better than any of the VNC versions.

/Mattias

Hi Mattias,

I am indeed controlling PCs from a Mac. I don't have Windows XP Pro on the PCs, so I assume that means that Microsoft Remote Desktop isn't an option for me. (If I'm wrong, I'd be happy to hear it.)

Mike

[Mattias Henningson]

Ok, then it's a no go...unless you upgrade to pro of course... :(

/Mattias

[Leftfield42]

I'm not sure about this, but isn't it possible to install Remote Desktop to a Win XP Home machine? I believe Microsoft have a download for Remote Desktop, but I can't for the life of me remember where the link is...:(

OK, scrap what I wrote above. I was thinking about the client software, not the terminal services server. Pro has the server, XP Home can only connect to a machine hosting a terminal services server (like XP Pro has, as does Server 2003 and 2000 Server). I don't believe the terminal services server can be installed on XP Home, though I have no evidence either way, and also don't know what the cost would be for the software even if it was available. OK, I'm dribbling uncontrollably now so I'll go have a lie down... Sorry...:o

[Mattias Henningson]

Well, yes, there are downloads...for the client (different ones for various os's) but not the server.

/Mattias

[Leftfield42]

Just to put my foot in my mouth even further...;) I have an old, old PC running Windows 98SE, and have to use RealVNC for that, and it is very slow. I find Remote Desktop on XP Pro and Widnows Server 2003 much faster. But even then, there is a slight delay between clicking in the RD window, and the remote PC reacting, so I wouldn't want to use it for anything where precision real time human interaction was required. This makes me wonder what the latencies are for an ethernet connection based GS farm...?

[Deak]

Mattias, have you compared Remote Administrator and Remote Desktop? The Remote Administrator is very fast (compared to other VNC which are too slow). I am just curious. I have XP machines and could use Remote Desktop if I wished.

[Mattias Henningson]

No, never tried it. Sounds interesting. How does it handle the video stream? I used to use various flavors of VNC, NetOp, and some other packages, but stopped using them when Terminal Services (same technology as Remote Desktop) was integrated into Win2k Server. There was a huge difference in performance, especially since I worked alot over ISDN lines even with Remote Desktop sessions within Remote Desktop sessions back then (one over LAN to a ISDN server and then over the ISDN line into a customers network).

/Mattias

[Daryl]

Just to put my foot in my mouth even further...;) I have an old, old PC running Windows 98SE, and have to use RealVNC for that, and it is very slow. I find Remote Desktop on XP Pro and Widnows Server 2003 much faster. But even then, there is a slight delay between clicking in the RD window, and the remote PC reacting, so I wouldn't want to use it for anything where precision real time human interaction was required. This makes me wonder what the latencies are for an ethernet connection based GS farm...?
If your network is Gigabit, then you will find that the MIDI timing is tighter than any hardware device. The audio may will some latency, depending on how many machines/outputs etc. It all depends on what is acceptable to you.

D

[Deak]

Remote Administrator to me is very fast. I used Real VNC for years before discovering RA. I use RA locally and also over a VPN connection and it works great. I am just curious what is best - is RD and Terminal Services better? I have read many reviews on remote administration. It seemed to me that all recommendations pointed to RA over everything else and never did I hear anything about MS RD. However, of late I hear more and more mentioning MS RD as great that I am now curious and of course interested in having the best and a free program (well, included with XP Pro).

[MikeShapiro]

Mike, are you're only controlling PC's from your Mac? If so did you try Microsofts Remote Desktop already? The performance is far far better than any of the VNC versions.

/Mattias

Hi Mattias,

Since starting this thread, I've been playing with using my Mac to control my GigaPC server via Remote Desktop. Do you know if it's possible to connect to multiple PC's on a single Mac via this route? It seems like the client can only make one connection at a time, though I'm not certain of this.

(I ask because I remember your saying you had multiple Giga servers connected to your DAW.)

Thanks again!

Mike

[Mattias Henningson]

Mike, I'm definitely able to control any number of computers with RD simultaneously, but as I don't have a Mac myself I can't say anything about the features of the Mac client. In a PC-only envrionment you simply start multiple instances of the client.


/Mattias

[csduke]

I have a gigabit network based on an ordinary 8-port gigabit switch
/Mattias

Mattias,

Are you using gigabit network cards in your PCs or is the net hardware built into the mother board? I ask because, as I understand it, if its not on the MB, you don't get the full bandwidth because of PCI limitations. On the other hand. it is still 4 gtimes faster (so I have read).

Thanks,

[Mattias Henningson]

Mattias,
Are you using gigabit network cards in your PCs or is the net hardware built into the mother board?
Mostly built-in. I choose built-in on everything as it's the most economic way of building computers and on top of that it's hard to find a mother board without network these days.

I actually have one machine with a separate card, but it's a 4-year old 1.33GHz Athlon so I doubt I would notice any difference anyhow. :) GS3 and FXT/GVA work great in it though so it's still a workhorse.

/Mattias

[csduke]

Mattias,

Because I fell lazy today, I will ask you some questions about FXT so I don't have to search. So, correct me if I am wrong here:

1. FXT routes midi from a source (sequencer) on one PC to one or more VSTs (only) residing on one or more PCs. This, I suspect, is similar to MOL (which I am using).

2. FXT routes digital audio from these VSTs, on multiple PCs, back to the audio portion of the sequencer or an audio card on another PC.

3. You only need only one GSIF audio card no matter how many instances of GS you have.

4. GS must run as a VST.

Does FXT somehow satisfy GS's need to have GSIF drivers/audio card on the PC in which GS is installed?

I assume one benifit, audio-wise, is that you don't have to transfer rendered audio files between PCs for combining and mixing.

Have I got it? I appreciate your response.

[geronimo001]

O.K. I heard of fx-max but what is FXT and GVA?...never heard of those 2:confused:

Thanks.

[Daryl]

Mattias,
I'm not Mattias, but I'll try to help:

Because I fell lazy today, I will ask you some questions about FXT so I don't have to search. So, correct me if I am wrong here:

1. FXT routes midi from a source (sequencer) on one PC to one or more VSTs (only) residing on one or more PCs. This, I suspect, is similar to MOL (which I am using).
Correct


2. FXT routes digital audio from these VSTs, on multiple PCs, back to the audio portion of the sequencer or an audio card on another PC.
It uses a wrapper so the Host PC thinks that the VST is actually on the same PC and deals with it in the same way.


3. You only need only one GSIF audio card no matter how many instances of GS you have.
You don't need any, but you can only have one instance of GS per PC (but 8 ports, 16 MIDI channels each).


4. GS must run as a VST.
GS is turned into a VSTi using Gigastudio VST Adapter (GVA)


Does FXT somehow satisfy GS's need to have GSIF drivers/audio card on the PC in which GS is installed?
It doesn't go through the audio card, so yes.


I assume one benifit, audio-wise, is that you don't have to transfer rendered audio files between PCs for combining and mixing.
You treat it exactly the same as any other VSTi on your DAW.


Have I got it? I appreciate your response.
If you only need to use GS then you can get Giga Teleport, which does a combination of what FX and GVA does. However, this only works for Giga, so if you want to teleport any other effects or VSTi, then you need FX (and then GVA to use GS).

I hope this is clear now :>)

D

[synthnut]

Daryl ,

You don't need any, but you can only have one instance of GS per PC (but 8 ports, 16 MIDI channels each).

So you are saying the each PC can have 8 ports , with 16 midi channels each, but you can only run 1 instance on the WHOLE COMPUTER that has all these channels and ports ? ....
What am I missing here ? ....Maybe I'm not versed enough in the terminology
An instance is basically like one instrument correct ? .....So I can only run one instrument on the PC that is a slave ? ....Please excuse my ignorance ..Jim

[Mattias Henningson]

Craig, what Daryl said.

Jim, I'm not Daryl, but I'll try to help. :D

One instance is one instance of GigaStudio which means you can use up to 128 different instruments loaded at the same time.

/Mattias

[synthnut]

Mattias ,
Thanks for the clarification....I didn't think that it was only one instrument ..
Thanks to with your help on that registry link ....You really helped me out with that ....Now I want to tackle setting up Teleport FX and VST and or MOL not sure which yet ....Since I would like to continue useing my Mac for sequencing and vocal's I would like to use additional PC's for Virtual Inst. and Sampler programs ( Giga , Kontakt , etc ) ....Perhaps running all this on a Matrox G550 setup wth 2 monitors ???.....Any idea's ?.... I don't want to weasel in on this thread ....I'll start a new one ....Thanks again for your help ....Sincerely, Jim

[Daryl]

Mattias ,
Thanks for the clarification....I didn't think that it was only one instrument ..
Thanks to with your help on that registry link ....You really helped me out with that ....Now I want to tackle setting up Teleport FX and VST and or MOL not sure which yet ....Since I would like to continue useing my Mac for sequencing and vocal's I would like to use additional PC's for Virtual Inst. and Sampler programs ( Giga , Kontakt , etc ) ....Perhaps running all this on a Matrox G550 setup wth 2 monitors ???.....Any idea's ?.... I don't want to weasel in on this thread ....I'll start a new one ....Thanks again for your help ....Sincerely, Jim
Well, just one thing then; Teleport is PC only so you'll need to use MOL and hardware for the audio.

D

[MikeShapiro]

Mike, I'm definitely able to control any number of computers with RD simultaneously, but as I don't have a Mac myself I can't say anything about the features of the Mac client. In a PC-only envrionment you simply start multiple instances of the client.
/Mattias

Hi Mattias,

I found the solution to this, so I'll post it here for the benefit of others.

The problem I found is that clicking on the Remote Desktop Connect icon a second time only brings up the original, already-running instance of the application rather than starting a new one. The solution? Copy the application file! The duplicate application will run a new instance. A primitive solution, but functional.

Mike

[synthnut]

Daryl,

Well, just one thing then; Teleport is PC only so you'll need to use MOL and hardware for the audio.

DARN!!....Why didn't I think of that ? ..... Sometime's it's the simple things that stop you from doing what you want ....:(

Thanks for waking me up !!.....Sincerely, Jim