Orchestral Americana - where do *you* draw the line?

[Houston Haynes]

Hey folks - I got a prompt from someone to start a thread here about "Orchestral Americana" and posit a few assertions and questions - to see where other people "draw the line". I wrote a quick blurb (http://www.hhaynes.com/content/view/68/32/) about it - or at least my take on its origins and extentions - on my web site. It was an attempt to answer a question I get asked quite a bit, but as usual, it has done as much to spur more inquiries as it has answered.

So here are some questions off the top of my head" Does an orchestral piece only qualify as "Americana" if it draws from the well-known catalog of patriotic melodies and themes? Is it limited to tonal music only (so none of Aaron Copland's serial music qualifies)? Does it have to be created within a certain period, or are there compositional/arrangement techniques that say "Americana"? Does John Phillip Souza's music count as orchestral Americana? Do you have to be an American to write "Americana"? What makes a contemporary orchestral work *not* Americana to you?

I'm sure there are other (perhaps better) questions that can (and should) be asked - but now that I've been asked to post this starter, I'm really curious about what people think. It seems that a lot of film music would fit comfortably within the realm of "Americana" depending on how the definition is chosen, whether or not the stylistic association is intentional. Perhaps we should broaden the conversation to ask if people even think about musical styles any more when they compose...

...thoughts?

[SeanHannifin]

Hmmm... first I'd ask what exactly "Americana" is... but it seems you do that with your questions really :D And if you have to ask... if there is no set definition, I don't see any reason you can not decide where to draw the line yourself... After all, you must define it before it will have much of a meaning.

What I've always found funny is how some famous American patriotic tunes have come from other countries... like America's national anthem tune is believed to have come from ... Britain! :D

Edit: (some more things to say) ... I don't think anyone sits down and says "Now I'm going to write some Americana!" Certainly one could say "I hope I write something original," or "I hope I can create my own 'style' " or "I hope I sound like John Williams". I think all composers strive to write something somewhat original, because if they don't... well, then they're not really writing, they're copying. However, if it were totally original, it would probably sound horrible, i.e. you'd still use our good old 12-tone key system, you'd probably use harmony in some fashion, etc.

If I were to define "Americana" ... (in correlation with your 6 bullet points)

1) Yes, though "well-known" would be subjective/relative to the listener
2) No
3) No and some of the time (your use of the word "or" doesn't make sense to me)
4) Yes
5) No (assuming by "American" you simply mean legal American citizen ... especially since most Americans are really from Europe)
6) Strictly non-Americana would be music that goes against #1, which is the most important. If a piece of music draws up imagery of, say, China, it would not be Americana. This is again totally up to the perception of the listener of course.

In this way, if the Marriage of Figaro overture should someday become the American national anthem (we can only hope), and it caused future generations to think of the country America, it would become Americana.

This also implies that "Americana" to one is not the same "Americana" to another, just as "good music" to one is not the same as "good music" to another. But this is the case anyway since there is no set definition of "Americana"

There we go :)

[etLux]

"The way to write American music is simple. All you have to do is
be an American and then write any kind of music you wish."

Virgil Thomson
US composer, conductor, & music critic (1896 - 1989)

[Houston Haynes]

What I've always found funny is how some famous American patriotic tunes have come from other countries... like America's national anthem tune is believed to have come from ... Britain! :D

Ha - and a drinking song at that!


:D

So the Virgil Thompson quote and the quote about the teachings of Nadia Boulanger might be construed to be at odds. Do you really *have* to be an American to compose in an Americana style - or does it have enough 'legs' today for it to be identifiable regardless of who wrote it?

On the flip side - there are people that argue Gershwin's "American in Paris" is not truly Americana, per se, because the compositional elements are so distinctly European.

[SeanHannifin]

So the Virgil Thompson quote and the quote about the teachings of Nadia Boulanger might be construed to be at odds.
By my definition, Virgil Thompson would be wrong... :D

Hey, nice to see another website that uses Mambo :D

[etLux]

By my definition, Virgil Thompson would be wrong...
I didn't say he was right, Sean... lol. But hey, ya gotta admit he has some seniority...

Personally, I lean in the direction that there is no "American" music, per se.

I think Houston raises the most salient of inquiries when he wonders "if people even think about musical styles any more when they compose..."

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[SeanHannifin]

I didn't say he was right, Sean... lol. But hey, ya gotta admit he has some seniority...
Well, just by my definition, he's wrong :D It depends on what definition you use. It just seems to me he's defining it differently, which isn't inherently wrong by itself.


I think Houston raises the most salient of inquiries when he wonders "if people even think about musical styles any more when they compose..."
I'm certain some composers do, especially film composers when the director is looking for a certain style. However, "Americana" is probably not one of the commonly understood 'styles' because it is not currently well-defined.

[Houston Haynes]

3) No and some of the time (your use of the word "or" doesn't make sense to me)

Well - my question pointed more to "is Americana defined by a period in which it's composed or by thematic choice?"


5) No (assuming by "American" you simply mean legal American citizen ... especially since most Americans are really from Europe)

HA! Another good point - though my family goes back in the US to the time when North Carolina was simply defined as "Carolina" (one of my forebears signed the charter with King Charles himself), I too have no illusions that Americana was not created in a vacuum. In fact - I go to great pains to illustrate how Americana had quite a few direct and indirect international influences - just as the reference music from which "Americana" is so often defined is most often sourced from different countries. (mostly European)


6) Strictly non-Americana would be music that goes against #1, which is the most important. If a piece of music draws up imagery of, say, China, it would not be Americana. This is again totally up to the perception of the listener of course.

A really good point - Americana can be more defined by what it's *not* than what it *is* in my view. I would consider the music to Brokeback Mountain to be very Americana - even through the composer is Argentinian.

So - another question - does Aaron Copland's "El Salon Mexico" qualify as "Americana"?

[FredProgGH]

To me the word "Americana" as applied to music means a fairly specific use of folk/western/country traditional music from American history as its thematic base. So, it's stuff like Copeland's Rodeo, Appalachian Spring and most of Charles Ives' popular works, even if made more dissonant in the end. Not all American writing (in fact, not much of it) is Americana, and Americana doesn't have to be written by an American. I suppose music that simply emulates traditional melodies can also qualify.

[rpearl]

It's funny that Copland comes up so much in this topic. As I point out to my students, Copland's music has become "the sound" of what might be called Red State America - it's use in the beef commercials certainly give it that flavor. The irony, of course, is that the music we take for the most American - even the most middle American was written by a gay, Jewish guy, raised in Brooklyn, and educated in France! In a way that IS what makes him American. I think before we define American music, maybe we should define Amercan. Whoo boy, that'll be fun...



R. Pearl

[etLux]

Courtesy of www.Dictionary.com



americana

noun : any artifact (such as books or furniture or art) that is distinctive of America



It would be useful to the discussion, I think, if what we mean here by the term "america" is clarified.

David.
.

[SeanHannifin]

Well - my question pointed more to "is Americana defined by a period in which it's composed or by thematic choice?"
Well, I would say by thematic choice.


So - another question - does Aaron Copland's "El Salon Mexico" qualify as "Americana"?
:D I guess so. Funny thing about Mexico I guess... it kind of fuses with American history.

[SeanHannifin]

americana

noun : any artifact (such as books or furniture or art) that is distinctive of America



It would be useful to the discussion, I think, if what we mean here by the term "america" is clarified.
Good point! Well, I think the word "distinctive" also makes it a bit subjective as well, especially with an art form as abstract as music.

[newmewzikboy]

I never considered Copland, Piston, Harris, Mennin, Diamond, Schuman, Sessions, Rorem and that symphonic school strictly Americana in sound or origin. (did i miss any) They always came off Franco-American in nature, although they were also trained by a few germans and francoruskies along the way - you know that sound and influence of Block, Roussel, Hindemith, Stravinsky, Dukas, Faure, Honneger, Toch...throw in some Sibelius too since we are on the road here...

I think the whole trend, school whatever, the time...no matter what you call it, was....great stuff...

[Houston Haynes]

It would be useful to the discussion, I think, if what we mean here by the term "america" is clarified.

That's the first thing that I attempt to address in my FAQ (http://www.hhaynes.com/content/view/68/32/) - that orchestral Americana is more than "roots music" for orchestra. However, I wouldn't fault anyone for thinking that musical Americana starts at "Yankee Doodle" and end with "Stars and Stripes Forever". The entire point of this thread was to find out where folks thought that orchestral Americana "starts" and "stops" for them.

[Houston Haynes]

They always came off Franco-American in nature

Throw Gershwin in that mix too - as he was chided many times for the "French" influence in his music.


you know that sound and influence of Block, Roussel, Hindemith, Stravinsky, Dukas, Faure, Honneger, Toch...throw in some Sibelius too since we are on the road here...

Many of those names I have mentioned in my write-up, because they *were* so influential on the composers that were identified as being part of orchestral Americana. I don't think they take the American out of orchestral Americana - but rather were integral to influencing it's development. Check the first part of my write-up again. History bears out that most of the composers you name produced their most influential works before the influx of "patriotic" orchestral Americana works that were commissioned just before, during and after WWII.

So - that begs the next question - does orchestral Americana automatically stipulate that it be based on some American patriotic theme?

I think that's a bit of a softball question on the surface, since we have Appalachian Spring, Rhapsody in Blue, and other "standard" works that don't have any identifiable patriotic themes in them (unless I missed them) yet are most definitely amongst the first pieces that people name when the phrase "orchestral Americana". But when you go farther afield into the works of Charles Ives (The Unanswered Question, Central Park After Dark) and Samual Barber (Adagio for Strings, The School for Scandal) you get into works that play with the breakdown of tonality and the barline. I consider them to be as much about orchestral Americana as any patriotic work - even if they reside on the finges (or plainly outside) of most others' definition.

[FredProgGH]

It's funny that Copland comes up so much in this topic. As I point out to my students, Copland's music has become "the sound" of what might be called Red State America - it's use in the beef commercials certainly give it that flavor. The irony, of course, is that the music we take for the most American - even the most middle American was written by a gay, Jewish guy, raised in Brooklyn, and educated in France! In a way that IS what makes him American. I think before we define American music, maybe we should define Amercan. Whoo boy, that'll be fun...



R. PearlWell, that's my point. It's not about the composer, it's about the fact that he either directly quotes American folk music or writes themes that could easily pass for American folk music. It's the content. Kansas was a prog band that often had a quintessentially "American" sound to their music, unlike most other prog bands who sounded more European. I would cite much of their music (up until the 6th album, anyway) as Americana. It's a feel.

[Drumroll]

Cool thread - I want to get my thoughts in before they become passe:

• Does an orchestral piece only qualify as "Americana" if it draws from the well-known catalog of patriotic melodies and themes?

I would have to say no. I feel that Americana also draws from unknown folk, jazz and spiritual and not necessarily American music as well.

• Is it limited to tonal music only (so none of Aaron Copland's serial music qualifies)?

If the consensus is that Gershwin's Rhapsody, Copeland's Fanfare and Grofe's Canyon (as a few examples) fall under the label Americana and I cannot think of any atonal pieces that have been labeled thus, then I would be inclined to say "yes" it is limited to tonal music, however, it can include dissonances in the thematic development as evident in some of the composer works not mentioned here.

• Does it have to be created within a certain period, or are there compositional/arrangement techniques that say "Americana"?

Americana continues to be heard through film music, however and with exception of course, I feel that the bulk of it has already been composed and it is not a widely used technique in current orchestral compositions. I do think that there seems to be definite compositional/arrangement techniques that are utilized in qualifying pieces as Americana, or we would not be having this discussion today.

• Does John Phillip Souza's music count as orchestral Americana?

I don't think so, Marches are more like pop tunes of the era. I also think they are a global tradition, not necessarily an American phenomena.

• Do you have to be an American to write "Americana"?

Absolutely not.

• What makes a contemporary orchestral work *not* Americana to you?

As I mentioned in my answer above, I don't think that contemporary orchestral works fit in the Americana genre, unless the author specifically writes it to adhere to the compositional/arrangement techniques that apply. I know, kind of a cop-out answer, but unless I had an example to critic, I can't really be that specific.

[Houston Haynes]

Well, that's my point. It's not about the composer, it's about the fact that he either directly quotes American folk music or writes themes that could easily pass for American folk music. It's the content. Kansas was a prog band that often had a quintessentially "American" sound to their music, unlike most other prog bands who sounded more European. I would cite much of their music (up until the 6th album, anyway) as Americana. It's a feel.

I love the idea of talking about prog rock and their thematic influences, but I'm not sure they qualify for the discussion of "orchestral Americana" (unless you count Metallica's concert with an orchestra behind them). I know that's a little unfair, and doubly so since I know an agent that reps for one of the former members of Kansas - who is doing a lot of film scoring in LA now. There's also a former member of the Scorpions that's in LA getting a lot of gigs, but that's as much attributable to his master's degree in composition as anything that he did with a rock band. As far as Kansas goes (one of my favorite bands, BTW) if you take some of their odd-metere'd breaks and put just a touch of coloratura in some of the thematic turns, you'd get traditional Greek music (or even Irish in the "square" passages) - so in my book they're not too far away from betraying very European roots - regardless of the subject matter of their lyrics.

Getting back to orchestral Americana - I think that there is a definite central area to it - both in time and place as well as compositional style. However, I *also* tend to think of it as being surrounded by a vast gray area both in its predecessors and its successors, as opposed to hard lines in style, regional influence, or time. Still, I think it's interesting to find where people choose to lay the boundaries.

[Garritan]

Fascinating read Houston. A well-written and insightful look into Orchestral Americana.

There are things you mentioned in your article that I never knew and raised some interesting questions about what the genre is all about.

America is regarded as a melting pot and this seems to apply to its music.

Gary Garritan

[FredProgGH]

I love the idea of talking about prog rock and their thematic influences, but I'm not sure they qualify for the discussion of "orchestral Americana"
Yeah, I agree, I was just throwing out an example since for me the "orchestral" qualifier is irrelevant- to me musical Americana is all the same exclusive of other sub-genres. I would include a lot of Tom Waits music too, for example, right alongside Copeland. The Copeland does fall under the subheading orchestral, Tom does not. But they're both Americana to me. I can see how my personal working definition of Americana doesn't really comply with the dictionary definition, either.

[PaulR]

Very interesting thread and Americana has always been a main interest for me. Americana or what qualifies as a 'certain American flavour or style' is obviously not just confined to music. So...

• Does an orchestral piece only qualify as "Americana" if it draws from the well-known catalog of patriotic melodies and themes?

I would say no.

• Is it limited to tonal music only (so none of Aaron Copland's serial music qualifies)?

Yes - limited more or less to tonal music simply because en masse people identify a memorable piece of music with America more readily. Trained musicians naturally have other views, but are obviously a minority.

• Does it have to be created within a certain period, or are there compositional/arrangement techniques that say "Americana"?

If you discount the obvious American composers such as Copland with things like say Fanfare, El Salon Mexico and Hoedown, I think there has been a definite fairly thick margin of time where the period has come and gone. Most of the Americana sound was to be found in film scores - but it's difficult to break up a film as a whole. So you get films like say, Of Mice and Men (original version) up to The Day the Earth Stood Still and so on. Crazily, a lot of it needs to be in black and white to be most effective.

• Does John Phillip Souza's music count as orchestral Americana?

Great writer that he was - I don't think that sound necessarily qualifies as Americana for some reason.

• Do you have to be an American to write "Americana"?

Probably not. I think you just need to be infected by the American films right back to screwball comedy such Bringing up Baby and great drama like Citizen Kane right up to The Invasion of the Body Snatchers. I deliberately tried to write an Americana piece some time ago - it's not easy. :)

• What makes a contemporary orchestral work *not* Americana to you?

It never seems to have that magic. A lot of what music sounds like and the way it is written has a major amount to do with the actual times it is written in. Today's world is eons apart from say the 1950's. If you are quite young today - you cannot imagine the 50's or 60's. Even then, I would say that what I mean by Americana - it had long gone by the 60's.

[newmewzikboy]

Does an orchestral piece only qualify as "Americana" if it draws from the well-known catalog of patriotic melodies and themes?

No...because I don't believe that Absolute American music exists based on these elements...anymore than I believe that Absolute Chinese music exists. They derive from a migration to the new world...and are changed.
And certainly, composers that I admired at the time rejected a pure american music as well. p.s. I don't admire Copland for his music, but do for his generosity.


Is it limited to tonal music only (so none of Aaron Copland's serial music qualifies)?

Music has no self imposed limitations and I already asnwered this above...if you disagree with the first question, you may want to look to the american mavericks and ask the same question...(cage, babbitt, how about varese? etc).


Does it have to be created within a certain period, or are there compositional/arrangement techniques that say "Americana"?


There are none. Its all derivitive...including the Euro tradition. For example, I can find plenty of examples of Euro "open spacing". Associating Open spacing and the west is simply a Romantic projection based on ignorance of whats out there and what was influencing their education. Copland simply utilized it for a musical purpose, and secondary perhaps for his own projection spin - derived also both Euro influences as well as Diamond and V Thompson who was a bit pissed at it. In other words, after serving a musical purpose it was at most an afterthought that may have inspired him to keep going in his writing, or getting customers to the shop. No problem there, if it works for something do it...


Does John Phillip Souza's music count as orchestral Americana?


No...because he was a jazzer who smoked dope...


Do you have to be an American to write "Americana"?


No. Nationalistic divisions and that way of looking at the world with those eyes died after WWI. Let it rot.


What makes a contemporary orchestral work *not* Americana to you?

I never ask the question. I listen to a work on its own merits. As in modern chess, to view the position at hand with "Rule Independence" in mind...the world is my pallette...what does the music demand RIGHT NOW.

[Houston Haynes]

• Is it limited to tonal music only (so none of Aaron Copland's serial music qualifies)?

Yes - limited more or less to tonal music simply because en masse people identify a memorable piece of music with America more readily. Trained musicians naturally have other views, but are obviously a minority.

Great point. One of the things that I didn't get into in the write-up on my site (http://www.hhaynes.com/content/view/68/32/) is the contention between what musicians and composers would identify as being inspired by Americana - and what the audience/general public would recognize as such.

So - here's another one that's not so easy - is orchestral Americana defined by the audience or by the composer?

[PaulR]

So - here's another one that's not so easy - is orchestral Americana defined by the audience or by the composer?

I'll try and come back on this very interesting point later - but in the meantime NMB has irritated me because he is NOT talking or making reference to Americana. American - yes.

[newmewzikboy]

I'll try and come back on this very interesting point later - but in the meantime NMB has irritated me because he is NOT talking or making reference to Americana. American - yes.

Yes I have. There is nothing "americana" about it. folk songs? You'll find they have reference to sckottish or irish influences and maybe a sprinkle of german. Chester? What is strictly Americana in "sound" about it? Nothing...Sound is sound...you press your own ideas and ideals on it. You impose your own interpretations on it. Blame the critics and the marketing spinners... how selfish can you get? If Copland lived in oh...Kashbakistan...and wrote a piece drinking vodka, you would swear it was from there too!

[Fabio]

Yes I have. There is nothing "americana" about it. folk songs? You'll find they have reference to sckottish or irish influences and maybe a sprinkle of german. Chester? What is strictly Americana in "sound" about it? Nothing...Sound is sound...you press your own ideas and ideals on it. You impose your own interpretations on it. Blame the critics and the marketing spinners... how selfish can you get? If Copland lived in oh...Kashbakistan...and wrote a piece drinking vodka, you would swear it was from there too!

NMB, my old friend, you are an unbelievable professional provocator!

People has not understood yet, that you have enough culture and time to contradict everybody on everything. ;) :D

But I think that you may be less sarcastic sometime, to make the thread longer lasting...before they:D CLOSE IT!

[etLux]

Yes I have. There is nothing "americana" about it. folk songs? You'll find they have reference to sckottish or irish influences and maybe a sprinkle of german. Chester? What is strictly Americana in "sound" about it? Nothing...Sound is sound...you press your own ideas and ideals on it. You impose your own interpretations on it. Blame the critics and the marketing spinners... how selfish can you get? If Copland lived in oh...Kashbakistan...and wrote a piece drinking vodka, you would swear it was from there too!

Overall, I cannot think of a single piece of music that I could firmly and comfortably label either American or Americana.

Virtually every bit of music in this country had its roots distinctly elsewhere.

About the only possible exception would be American Indian chant and plainsong.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[Fabio]

Overall, I cannot think of a single piece of music that I could firmly and comfortably label either American or Americana.

Virtually every bit of music in this country had its roots distinctly elsewhere.

About the only possible exception would be American Indian chant and plainsong.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

Hi David and NMB:

let me know your point:

What about native american songs....(no please NMB don't tell me they invade the american continent migrating from siberia some centuries ago...;-)

What about Blues: it's not african, it's not european. It's at least afro-american....:D ;)

[etLux]

"Blues" is a style, to me; and there are certainly distinctive American styles.

The musical basis of Blues is various, however.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[Fabio]

"Blues" is a style, to me; and there are certainly distinctive American styles.

The musical basis of Blues is various, however.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

Good point. We, in Europe, have a more easy "sense" for foreign music, and some american (just made in america) music sounds pretty global or european. But we think that an "american" taste for music exist, and is the melting pot of an instinctive rythm with advanced harmony.

Advanced harmony has been created in Europe, and sophisticated rythms have been written in Europe a century before American music diffusion.

But tribal instinctiv rythms + sophisticated harmony are the American music fingerprints in my opinion (...sorry, poor and pure, european opinion :D )

[Fabio]

How to write american music?
just write whatever you want, being an American...;-)

It seems to be the conclusion. Some friends use it in the signature!

Who is the author of the sentence?

[etLux]

How to write american music?
just write whatever you want, being an American...;-)

It seems to be the conclusion. Some friends use it in the signature!

Who is the author of the sentence?

As I mentioned early in this thread:


"The way to write American music is simple. All you have to do is
be an American and then write any kind of music you wish."

Virgil Thomson
US composer, conductor, & music critic (1896 - 1989)

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[etLux]

But tribal instinctiv rythms + sophisticated harmony are the American music fingerprints in my opinion (...sorry, poor and pure, european opinion :D )
Nationalistic characterization of music by virtue of the techniques used in its composition would seem to require some more specific and distinctive criteria.

But again, too, this seems more a stylistic evaluation than one of musical basis.

If I use African rhythms and idiomatically Jazz-like chordal structures in a rendition of the German national anthem -- does it then become American music?

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[Fabio]

Nationalistic characerization of music by virtue of the techniques used in its composition would seem to require some more specific and distinctive criteria.

But again, too, this seems more a stylistic evaluation than one of musical basis.

If I use African rhythms and idiomatically Jazz-like chordal structures in a rendition of the German national anthem -- does it then become American music?

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

I don't think that nationalistic is the right description of what I mean, probably it's more "cultural", or "historical", then probably is what you call "style". About the German anthem, yes I think that if you do it, it becames american music!:)

If we talk of musical roots, like Indian sruti, or Japan anemitonic pentatonic , then of course I agree, nothing in America is so pure and autoctone, nearly everything in America is contaminated by European culture.
But contaminated doesn't mean less original in my opinion.

As usual it has been nice discussing with you, I appreciate your open minded vision, breaking cliche every time it's possible.

(NMB is a master of cliche distruction, it's his own private cliche!)

Thanks for citation, sorry i've lost it before!:o

[etLux]

America is contaminated by European culture.
Lol... Fabio, that is wonderful choice of words!

There are surely those who feel this is so; but please, for the most part, we have enormous respect for the culture of our European forebears -- and their achievements, most especially in regard to music.

May we perhaps say that, America is strongly influenced by European culture, instead.

My best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[Fabio]

Lol... Fabio, that is wonderful choice of words!

There are surely those who feel this is so; but please, for the most part, we have enormous respect for the culture of our European forebearers -- and their achievements, most especially in regard to music.

May we perhaps say that, America is strongly influenced by European culture, instead.

My best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

LOL, David never forget, please, that English is not my natural language.

The verb "to contaminate" is used with cultural sense in Italian (and other latin languages). It's meaning "influencing by melting and mixing of cultures".
If it's in English more related to virus bacteria and disease, sorry, it was not my point...:confused:

[etLux]

LOL, David never forget, please, that English is not my natural language.

The verb "to contaminate" is used with cultural sense in Italian (and other latin languages). It's meaning "influencing by melting and mixing of cultures".
If it's in English more related to virus bacteria and disease, sorry, it was not my point...:confused:
No no no, my friend -- your English is excellent in its vocabulary! And I, who speak only English (and not always so well), am most envious that you speak several languages so well.

Your choice of word was most appropriate! I meant only to make it sound less like a negative thing... when it is a very positive and essential part of our artistic roots.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[PaulR]

Yes I have. There is nothing "americana" about it. folk songs? You'll find they have reference to sckottish or irish influences and maybe a sprinkle of german. Chester? What is strictly Americana in "sound" about it? Nothing...Sound is sound...you press your own ideas and ideals on it. You impose your own interpretations on it. Blame the critics and the marketing spinners... how selfish can you get? If Copland lived in oh...Kashbakistan...and wrote a piece drinking vodka, you would swear it was from there too!

No. I disagree. Unless you are a Native American then of course references can be made from all over the world. That is what an Americans' heritage is afer all, and you well know it.
And of course one presses ones own ideas, ideals and just about anything else on the interpretation of music - in this case. There is no one interpretation of anything in art.
Americana is a difficult one to to describe in words. The English equivalent would be something like The Lark Ascending. It's almost a longing for something that's gone.
Americana is not Blues or Rock. It is more to do with something else that has a tinge of sadness about it - like the The Lark. Or The Asphalt Jungle - or The Treasure of the Sierra Madre. And yes- even Edward Hopper. Hard to define. I know one thing for sure - it's got bugger all to do with the likes of Varese.

A simple one might be the scene and accompanying music in Superman - where as a boy he leaves the farm and mother comes out to say goodbye. That's a hark back - and a false example of Americana. And Williams is good at that. Whereas Superman comics are true Americana.

[newmewzikboy]

...almost a longing for something that's gone.....
It is more to do with something else that has a tinge of sadness about it - like the The Lark. .... A simple one might be the scene and accompanying music in Superman - where as a boy he leaves the farm and mother comes out to say goodbye. That's a hark back - and a false example of Americana. And Williams is good at that. Whereas Superman comics are true Americana.

SSSSNIFFF -- EEEEWWW

OK WHO WAS IT WHO'S BEEN EATING THAT AMERICANA CABBAGE AROUND HERE AHGAIN??? FESS UP!!!

[etLux]

WHO WAS IT WHO'S BEEN EATING THAT AMERICANA CABBAGE AROUND HERE AHGAIN??? FESS UP!!!
Aw geez... that was me, sorry.

I'll try to be quieter about it.

[Looks around for trombone mute.]

David.
.

[Houston Haynes]

Certainly I don't think that orchestral Americana should be defined in such broad terms as to be meaningless, but I think that a piece can withstand strong cultural references or venture pretty far afield and still fall well within the genre. I think Gershwin's American in Paris is a very good example of this - and Copland's El Salon Mexico is another. On the other hand, there are sections of Charles Ives Holidays Symphony that are on the fringe, and that's being generous.

[newmewzikboy]

I just wonder what the value of this conversation really leaves you with in the end? Some better understanding of music? Because you dont need to put your music inside a tightly controlled box and carry your mind on crutches to understand it or appreciate it. Perhaps its all just a vanity show to hear some opinion broadcast and reverberated around the room to ones own ears...

But, I tell you what, let settle this score....lets go get our shovels and go dig up some *american err...sorry *americana composers and secretly send the DNA to the following sites:

http://www.familytreedna.com/
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html

Oh look...they all have L1-L3 markers and originated from a common ancestor in Afrika 200,000 years ago! Why, they are all be writing AFRICAN music mymy!

[etLux]

I just wonder what the value of this conversation really leaves you with in the end? ... Perhaps its all just a vanity show to hear some opinion broadcast and reverberated around the room to ones own ears...

Yes! Yes!

I love that!

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[newmewzikboy]

***AMERICANA!!!


AMERICAna

AMEricana...

Americana...

americana...

(americana)...

(americana)...
(ameicana)...
(amicana)...
(cana)...
(can)...
(a)...
()...
*bloip!

[FredProgGH]

Of course American folk music mostly has roots in music from other places- all the people that made it (outside of the native Americans) came from other places. That's not the point. The point is the place of the music in America's history.

What troubles me more is that classic "wild west, wide open spaces" type of sound typified by pieces like Rodeo and the main theme to Magnificent Seven. Does a piece like, say, the Bonanza theme sound like the big west because it emulates music of that period or because we associate that sound with the images from films like Mag. 7?? Is it real Americana or is that open fifth string sound and 1-4-5 progression a manufactured cultural reference from Hollywood?? I tend to think those sounds do echo the sounds of, say, folk fiddle music and western chord progressions- but have they evolved beyond what real "orchestrated Americana" would sound like?

[Houston Haynes]

I just wonder what the value of this conversation really leaves you with in the end? Some better understanding of music? Because you dont need to put your music inside a tightly controlled box and carry your mind on crutches to understand it or appreciate it. Perhaps its all just a vanity show to hear some opinion broadcast and reverberated around the room to ones own ears...

I think it's really interesting to hear people's views, no matter how different. I don't think that gaining agreement was the aim, so if anyone thinks that ws my goal for posting my FAQ or this thread, they misinterpreted my intent. It's really an unfair conversation - because there will be some that will look at the "problem" as a way to reign things in, and others will look for interesting ways for the answer to spread nearly to the breaking point. I'm definitely not in the former group, and tend toward the latter.

I think that trained composers will answer the question differently than musicians (and would differ one from another) and likely would differ to some degree from the opinions of audiophiles and other non-musician oficianados. And as pointed out so aptly earlier in this thread - if you mention Americana to a filmmaker and a short list of films (almost all black and white) will run through their head. But then again, we're presuming that we're only going to talk to filmmakers that have studied or care about that type of film - enough to idenify it and discuss it intelligently. The point is that everyone will have a different sized "box" into which they try to stuff orchestral Americana - and I guess that goes for nearly any category of music.

What I found most interesting is that almost no one mentioned any specifics regarding form, harmonic rhythm and language, voicing, orchestration or other facets that make orchestral Americana identifiable. There were more "I know it when I hear it" or "this composer's early works" or "that period of time" or "this piece is definitely part of it" than I had originally expected. That, in and of itself, is very interesting. So if you think that this thread was arguing for the sake of arguing, perhaps you're missing the larger point.

[Houston Haynes]

I tend to think those sounds do echo the sounds of, say, folk fiddle music and western chord progressions- but have they evolved beyond what real "orchestrated Americana" would sound like?

I think that orchestral Americana can be equally erudite and existential, like the aforementioned Ives' pieces The Unanswered Question and Central Park After Dark and even Copland's A Lincoln Portrait springs to mind. But then again, it goes to what people are exposed to - and how they're told to label music when they hear it.

[SeanHannifin]

What I found most interesting is that almost no one mentioned any specifics regarding form, harmonic rhythm and language, voicing, orchestration or other facets that make orchestral Americana identifiable.
Pentatonacity.... is that word? Well, pentatonic music, for me, will usually be a sure way to draw up that good old "American Frontier" imagery... thus making it Americana according to my definition. :D

[Houston Haynes]

Pentatonic Tenacity!

That sounds like the name of a roots-rock band...

;)

[FredProgGH]

Mainly major chords in simple triads, the parallel open fifth voicings, I-IV-V progressions, pentatonacity (nice one :D)... all can be elements but far from a definition, for sure. Fiddly-bits. Is that a compositional component? :p

Apparently the sound of xylophone doubling strings is very American but damned if I know why.

[etLux]

What I found most interesting is that almost no one mentioned any specifics regarding form, harmonic rhythm and language, voicing, orchestration or other facets that make orchestral Americana identifiable.
Houston, that's where I run into a wall on this whole subject; and exactly why I said early on that "I lean in the direction that there is no 'American' music, per se."

American (or Americana, either perspective) music covers such a broad spectrum of musical language and technique... to the best of my consideration, I cannot think of a single element that might be found even reasonably uniformly across it; certainly not after 1900 or so.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[Houston Haynes]

HA! Therein lies the rub - you can play both sides of the compositional-element debate as well. You could try to list all of the "known" elements and range of usages for Americana music - then - give that list to a composer that knows nothing about the genre, and they *could* come up with something that sounds *nothing* like Americana (of course, give him an abstraction of a well-known melody and it would be hard to miss as long as it's still identifiable). So there is an "awareness" element that drives folks to the safer ground - dance around "My Country 'Tis of Thee" for five or six minutes with a 70 piece orchestra and you've got yourself a standard...

[newmewzikboy]

American (or Americana, either perspective) music covers such a broad spectrum of musical language and technique... to the best of my consideration, I cannot think of a single element that might be found even reasonably uniformly across it; certainly not after 1900 or so.

.
hear hear...touche i agree...or across anythin' from that other pond side either

[etLux]

HA! Therein lies the rub - you can play both sides of the compositional-element debate as well. You could try to list all of the "known" elements and range of usages for Americana music - then - give that list to a composer that knows nothing about the genre, and they *could* come up with something that sounds *nothing* like Americana ...
Thank you for more clearly elucidating my point... lol.

David.
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[SeanHannifin]

HA! Therein lies the rub - you can play both sides of the compositional-element debate as well. You could try to list all of the "known" elements and range of usages for Americana music - then - give that list to a composer that knows nothing about the genre, and they *could* come up with something that sounds *nothing* like Americana
I don't believe that means such elements don't exist... it just means... well, to put it bluntly, we are too dumb to recognize and list those elements. They are beyond are grasp, just like a list of elements that make a melody, or and entire composition for that matter, good. But our brains still perceive these elements we don't recognize. (And, of course, it will be subjective to the brain that's doin' the perceivin'.)

Then we could go on to ask... when is abstract art good? Eh... better not ask that...

[etLux]

I don't believe that means such elements don't exist... it just means... well, to put it bluntly, we are too dumb to recognize and list those elements. They are beyond are grasp, just like a list of elements that make a melody, or and entire composition for that matter, good. But our brains still perceive these elements we don't recognize. (And, of course, it will be subjective to the brain that's doin' the perceivin')
Rudolph Reti is going to go haunt you for that, Sean... lol.

Forgive me, my friend, but I must disagree profoundly on that; to me, it seems like a convenient intellecual dodge -- like a certain "brilliant" judicial mind [Justice Potter Stewart] who couldn't define pornography, but knew it when he saw it.

Music very readily submits to technical analysis.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[SeanHannifin]

Forgive me, my friend, but I must disagree profoundly on that
I forgive you. :D

What exactly do you disagree with? That the elements exist? Or that they are not listable? (edit: they are listable... they must be if they exist... we just haven't been able to list them yet)

It seems to me such elements must exist for I have differing emotional responses to different music and I believe there must be reasons for these emotional responses, whatever they are.

I do not believe we yet know these reasons because, as Mr. Haynes said:

give that list to a composer that knows nothing about the genre, and they *could* come up with something that sounds *nothing* like Americana

Likewise, create a computer program that composes based on a set of defined rules that we have noticed in the music we like, and it is very unlikely it will spit out anything that sounds good to our ears... again all subjective to the brain doin' the perceivin' ... (hence sadly there does not exist an automatic Mozartian symphony composer :( despite the fact that Mozart's music may very readily submit to technical analysis.) Edit: thus such computer programs should be possible, we just have yet to recognize the complete set of rules (that our brains must be using) that would be needed, despite analysis.

Or do you disagree that such elements are subjective to the different brains? (Which would just be silly :D )

Edit: sorry, I keep editing :o

[etLux]

Sean, I disagree that elements exist in the musical language that cannot be identified and enumerated.

And please! (I knew somebody would do this.) Don't imply for a second that analysis is the flipside of creation. It is not. Inverting the process of a given analysis results in creating what you started with -- not something new -- and hence, by the very mechanism of it, analysis has nothing whatsoever to do with composition, programmatic or otherwise.

That is, Sean, in a language we both understand, it ain't bilateral... lol.

Best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[SeanHannifin]

Sean, I disagree that elements exist in the musical language that cannot be identified and enumerated.
Oh good... because I didn't mean to say that... what I mean is that such elements have yet to be identified and enumerated... does that make more sense? :o Certainly any element that exists must also be able to be identified.

[etLux]

Oh good... because I didn't mean to say that... what I mean is that such elements have yet to be identified and enumerated... does that make more sense? :o Certainly any element that exists must also be able to be identified.
Yeah, it makes more sense, but I don't agree with that, either... LOL!

(I can't resist doing this, sorry: ) Can you give me an example?

David.

[SeanHannifin]

(I can't resist doing this, sorry: ) Can you give me an example?
:D :D :D I can not... that wouldn't make any sense. If I give an example of an element that has not yet been identified it would no longer be unindentified... :confused: It wouldn't make any sense.

Now I'm all confused ... :confused: :D (And now I can't resist...) Do you believe that musical perception is governed by certain, as of yet unknown, laws?

[etLux]

:D :D :D I can not... that wouldn't make any sense. If I give an example of an element that has not yet been identified it would no longer be unindentified... :confused: It wouldn't make any sense.
That's my point, Sean. It has the very same intellectual foundation as American Indians explaining lightning as the action of the angry thunder god, Umgowa.



Now I'm all confused ... :confused: :D (And now I can't resist...) Do you believe that musical perception is governed by certain, as of yet unknown, laws?
No.

I imagine we'll understand the physiological aspects in greater detail over time; but the perception itself is subjective, contextual, and cultural.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[valhalx]

Some very interesting discussion here. Tis a question I have long considered myself. What is American Orchestral music? My opinion? America is still desperatley searching for a cultural identity of its own. Some stylistic elements have been cited as being represenative of Americana but they, after all, are derived from European influences.
Composers can easily conger up aural images of life in America but are they really utilizing a distinctively American style? I think not.
America by it's very nature will never have a "style" of its own simply because we are quilt-work of many cultures and countries.
(Now, whipping way out into left field) I have had the good fortune to travel extensivley in Europe and I always had the feeling, returning to the States, that a country steeped in avenues lined with fast food joints, top 40 tunes on the radio and used car sales men using their kids in commercials, we have somehow missed the culture boat. (Now leaving left field)
Where do I draw the line? I don't. If you want "Americana" parody Copeland, "its whats for dinner".
Bill

[SeanHannifin]

I imagine we'll understand the physiological aspects in greater detail over time; but the perception itself is subjective, contextual, and cultural.
No! :D That's not what I mean... I don't mean so generally. Do you believe that a single brain, say... my brain, has laws (however malleable) that govern my perception of a given piece of music at a given time?

If not, either we still don't understand each other or it is simply a disagreement based on faith, in which case we can probably go no further... :D

[SeanHannifin]

That's my point, Sean. It has the very same intellectual foundation as American Indians explaining lightning as the action of the angry thunder god, Umgowa.
No, because explaining the reason is not what I'm attempting to do... I'm simply saying the reason exists, even if we don't know it.

[etLux]

No! :D That's not what I mean... I don't mean so generally. Do you believe that a single brain, say... my brain, has laws (malleable laws) that govern my perception of a given piece of music at a given time?

If not, either we still don't understand each other or it is simply a disagreement based on faith, in which case we can probably go no further... :D
You want me to comment specifically on *your* brain, Sean? You sure... lol? (Kidding aside, you have quite a fine one, my friend.)

Specific to an individual? Well, I don't know that "laws" would be quite the right word... structures and patterns and resonances, perhaps. But yes, I'd most certainly agree that your individual brain has regulatory mechanisms that control how you, as an individual, perceive just about anything, music included.

Whether you have yet discovered what they are and quantified them, that depends on how well you know your own mind, I think.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[etLux]

No, because explaining the reason is not what I'm attempting to do... I'm simply saying the reason exists, even if we don't know it.
Could you give me an example?

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[FredProgGH]

Some very interesting discussion here. Tis a question I have long considered myself. What is American Orchestral music?

Is that the question??

[Houston Haynes]

I think that the problem of describing any musical system is much easier than prescribing how to re-create it. That's the failing of the Schillinger system - and its power. It allows you to abstract many, many components of the composition, but like every other analysis system, if fails to provide all of the elements that went into the composer's mental process for creating the work. What we're dancing around with orchestral Americana is a problem that exists for any mode of musical expression that has this level of complexity. When you consider it - even sheet music is a form of short hand - with so many levels of interpretation that's left to the musician. That's why there are certain recordings, performances, and performers that are preferred over others for their particular interpretation of a genre or composer's work. Likewise with orchestral Americana it's the context around a piece of music that can be equal to the content - in terms of defining its place in the genre.

[SeanHannifin]

Specific to an individual? Well, I don't know that "laws" would be quite the right word... structures and patterns and resonances, perhaps. But yes, I'd most certainly agree that your individual brain has regulatory mechanisms that control how you, as an individual, perceive just about anything, music included.
Yay! Then we really agree with each other... somehow... I guess... er... maybe :D Yes, "laws" may not the right word... I'm thinking... like... reasons/rules... or something. Like "Why does blood flow through one's veins?" "Because the heart pumps it." It has reason... its flow is governed by "laws". "Why do you (a specific person) like this piece of music?" "I don't know... but there must be a reason." (though if you answered, "It makes me feel good" you'd have to answer why to that as well, etc.)...

Eh... I think that's what I think...


Whether you have yet discovered what they are and quantified them, that depends on how well you know your own mind, I think.
I don't think anyone knows their own mind that well :D :D :D

[SeanHannifin]

Could you give me an example?
Stop it! :D :D :D

Are you saying that my inability to provide an example proves the opposite? :confused: :D

[SeanHannifin]

I think that the problem of describing any musical system is much easier than prescribing how to re-create it. That's the failing of the Schillinger system - and its power. It allows you to abstract many, many components of the composition, but like every other analysis system, if fails to provide all of the elements that went into the composer's mental process for creating the work. What we're dancing around with orchestral Americana is a problem that exists for any mode of musical expression that has this level of complexity. When you consider it - even sheet music is a form of short hand - with so many levels of interpretation that's left to the musician. That's why there are certain recordings, performances, and performers that are preferred over others for their particular interpretation of a genre or composer's work. Likewise with orchestral Americana it's the context around a piece of music that can be equal to the content - in terms of defining its place in the genre.
Exactly! :D

I think... :D

[etLux]

Stop it! :D :D :D

Are you saying that my inability to provide an example proves the opposite? :confused: :D
Here's what I'm trying to get across, Sean.

You cannot posit that something exists, and then claim to prove that is so with an intellectual device that does not exist.

And as to knowing one's own mind, well... take your time; it's not a quick process.

David.
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[SeanHannifin]

You cannot posit that something exists, and then claim to prove that is so with something that does not exist.
I did not mean to do this... :o The belief that a reason exists yet is currently unknown is not something that can really be proven. I did not mean to claim that I had proven such.

Not to mention... proof itself is based on unprovable axioms... I'm a solipsist you know... ;) :p :D :|: (not really, but that would be funny... well maybe somewhat depending on the definition... :eek: :D )

Nothin' like an hour-long conversation about such things to get the mind a-whirling . . . :)

[etLux]

I did not mean to do this... :o The belief that a reason exists yet is currently unknown is not something that can really be proven. I did not mean to claim that I had proven such.

Not to mention... proof itself is based on unprovable axioms... I'm a solipsist you know... ;) :p :D :|: (not really, but that would be funny... well maybe somewhat depending on the definition... :eek: :D )

Nothin' like an hour-long conversation about such things to get the mind a-whirling . . . :)
ROFL!

Sean, Sean!

We gotta call a truce on this... lol.

Even better, I'll just surrender.

UMGOWA! Careful of Umgowa! He brings the lightning down...

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[SeanHannifin]

ROFL!

Sean, Sean!

We gotta call a truce on this... lol.

Even better, I'll just surrender.

UMGOWA! Careful of Umgowa! He brings the lightning down...
If it be your will... :D

No Umgowa... please! I must be unclear.

I'll have to think more...

[newmewzikboy]

Tsk tsk...more circle talk...and...look...we aren't any closer to genuis...i wonder why?

[etLux]

Tsk tsk...more circle talk...and...look...we aren't any closer to genuis...i wonder why?
Yes, I agree.

My fooling around aside, I think that probably stems from trying to "analyze" something that may not be there at all.

It would be interesting, to me, to hear from a seasoned musicologist who has studied American music in depth; though I suspect such a person would say that the real hallmark of American music -- the single characteristic that is common to all of it and defines it -- is:

Its diversity.


David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[jesshmusic]

I am sure it has been mentioned already, but I really think that some are confusing "Americana" and "American". Americana, as a genre, is not even given it's own definition in Grove's. But the term is often a generic genre description of Copland's middle works and others composed in a similar style. Sometimes the term is used more broadly, but it is a big misnomer. Most of the 'American' sound is still undefined in serious music. Dvorak was actually the first to try and tell us what american music should sound like. But pretty much everything, including Copland, is rooted in Western European traditions.

It is intersting that one term for a genre got so many responses, but I have a feeling this thread is more a debate about what comprises American music as opposed to Americana.

If it is just about the genre, then I say Copland's style in Rodeo, Billy the Kid, and Appalacian Spring are the prime examples. It mixes common practice harmony, jazz, parallelism, and lots of perfect 5ths. Some folk music is included, but sometimes it seems to just imitate the styles of early american folk music.

[SeanHannifin]

My fooling around aside, I think that probably stems from trying to "analyze" something that may not be there at all.
I simply have faith that it is there... :)

[Drumroll]

If it is just about the genre, then I say Copland's style in Rodeo, Billy the Kid, and Appalacian Spring are the prime examples. It mixes common practice harmony, jazz, parallelism, and lots of perfect 5ths. Some folk music is included, but sometimes it seems to just imitate the styles of early american folk music.

I fully agree. Personally, I think of it as a brief impressionist period. The composers took photos of moments in time during the burst growth of America during the early 20th century. The composers dictated what they wanted the audience to visualize by the titles of their works. So, in answer to that question posed earlier by Houston, I would say that the composers initiated the movement. Again, only my opinion and subject to change.

~Paula

[Cerrabore]

One of my favorite pieces of Americana, the film score Kings Row, was composed by Austrian Erich Wolfgang Korngold. From what I've read, Korngold was never really comfortable in America, and eventually returned to Austria to write for opera. So, background is definitely not a prerequisite. It's just Americana if you want it to be.