question about scales/key signatures

[Keitaro333]

Hey guys, i have a composition question cuz im kinda noobish in music theory and composition.
We all know that a scale has 7 notes/pitches, ex. C major scale has pitches C D E F G A B
If one would include a note or a chord thats not from that scale, say, C#, it would result in false sound.

Well what happened to me.
I wrote a piano solo. I enter notes with mouse in Cubase so sometimes i dont really pay attention which notes im pressing or which key im playing in, i go by ear.
First half is in the key C major and for the second half it modulates into a different key which is all right.

But, first i thought that the new key is
E-flat major (pitches C D Eb F G Ab Bb)
Then i noticed that in few verses, the notes and chords include pitch Db ,instead of D. That would be the key
A-flat major (pitches C Db Eb F G Ab Bb)

These pitches, D and Db, doesnt play both at one time so it doesnt sound false, at least to me but maybe im tone deaf who knows.

My question is, could it be that randomly without really knowing it i made a few modulations from E-flat major to A-flat major back and forth?
Theyre changing pretty quickly, something like
0-10 sec.: A-flat major
10-15 sec: E-flat major
15-20 sec.: A-flat major
20-.... sec: E-flat major

you can hear it here: http://www.keitaro.sk/download/kei4sample.mp3

Is this kind of fast modulations common in music? Or is it simply false and im weird?

[CallMeZoot]

It sounds good to me. I wouldn't go as far as to call it a modulation. It's just some brief mode mixture, which essentially means to "borrow" a chord from another key temporarily. You're borrowing a chord from Ab major for a splash of color, but you're not modulating.

Don't worry too much about what you call things. Write what sounds good and let the eggheads who write the history books find names for it!

chris.

[CallMeZoot]

Or it's possible that you're actually in Eb Mixolydian. I'm not sure, I'll have to give it another listen.

chrsi.

[Prowland]

I do not think that you are, per se, changing keys. I think that you are doing more of a chord modulation. Which basically means that where a chord was normally major...you used minor. It is akin to key modulation, but a bit more subtle...it adds tension to the melody...the release comes when you change it back. Then again, if the D is in those faster runs, then you might just be useing it as a passing tone. My ear is not good enough to tell where the shift is happening. For that matter, your ear may have guided you into using a 9 note scale...thus C Db D Eb F G Ab Bb C. If my memory is working right, the Neapolitan scale is one of those weird scales with more notes than normal. I am probably wrong about that scale...but they are out there. The Gypsy scale or Hungarian minor are also strong contenders in my memory. Anyway...My point being, that, in the end, you have to trust your ear. It knows better than your brain...at least, that is true in my case. In theory there is always an explaination for whatever notes we choose...in chords or in melody. Personally, I liked what you have so far. Whatever explaination come out of this thread, trust your ear. I am sure someone will disagree with my "theories", but that is okay. Especially since, I am pretty much untrained as far as theory and harmony goes.

Keep on writing,

Paul

P.S. If you want a good example of me writing by ear, and not knowing what I am doing...check this out "Off with His Head" (http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=3036&CID=17877) which is for a film scoring contest I entered. Mind you, this Fall I'm starting college as a Music Major...at which point, I will have to use theory.:eek: At the very least, I will know what I am doing wrong when I do it.:rolleyes:

P.P.S. While I was writing all this...most of my theories were stated!!LOL:D

[Keitaro333]

Thanks guys this info really helps.

This composition is actually already completed, and only after i finished it i was interested to know which key its actually in :D
You can listen to it here if you like:
http://www.keitaro.sk/download/kei4.mp3

[Fabio]

Thanks guys this info really helps.

This composition is actually already completed, and only after i finished it i was interested to know which key its actually in :D
You can listen to it here if you like:
http://www.keitaro.sk/download/kei4.mp3

My friend, all the answers above are right in the mean time, and they are showing how flexible is theory.

If you don't have a wide classical education, and you write "by ear"" you are not using any real musical system, but re-creating your own.

You make several "mistakes" that are absolutely acceptable, and sometime researched by pop musicians, to make more free his musical style (and in the beginning "strange, original, unusual" but day by day, year by year, usual and common).

The pop music language is based on a mixture of tonal and modal rules (un-written rules), and it doesn't make sense at all to find the right key. It works? Your ear is satisfied? Well,...that's all.

If you want write classical music, you need more theory study, and then you will be able of finding answers for your self. But if it's not your aim, forget it, and just write music as you like it.:)

[Keitaro333]

Thanks Fabio, yeah i just thought sometimes that my ear might not be so great so i was trying to find out if its right 'by theory' but now i see that there isnt exactly 'right' or 'wrong'.


You make several "mistakes" that are absolutely acceptable

I guess they're mistaked from the perspective of classical music and theory. That interests me, what are they for example?

[Fabio]

The choice of chords sequence (and then a harmonic structure) is related to the key of your composition if you make classical music. If you make "ultra-short" modulations to different tones, they are so short that you can't just say I'm in Ab instead of Eb, but some other reasons are equally possible (mixolidian mode? use of minor chords? just chromatic embellishments?...etc.)

The error is considering just melody. Considering just chord should be another error. But the harmony + melody + durations is enough to analyze your work: you are using a pop language, where temporary transitions to "near tonal or modal" zones are frequent to make spicy or melanconic or rocking the music. You have it in your mind, after listening a lot of samples.
Now you are able of re-synthesizing this language (composing your own song), even if you are not yet understanding the right key, or simply you don't know yet the name of the process you used when you compromised for a while the key recognition!

This kind of analysis is really close to musical style and musical language analysis. And never forget that today it's instinctive for every composer to use contemporarly different languages: maybe you include some classical, some jazz, some blues elements in a ballad without any voluntary effort, just following inspiration, and it is possible to make a "dissection" of the piece to separate elements, but just for didactic purpose.

Composing just let your soul guide your skill/technic/knowledge.

But please, because you like it, never stop your curiosity, and go on studying theory, it will be rewarding, believe me.

[dewdman42]

I do not hear any modulation in that MP3. Modulation can be explained in all kinds of complicated terms, but the easiest way to hear it is if the "tonal center" changes. Your tonal center in this music remains in C the entire time. By tonal center, I mean the music wants to resolve back to C to sound final. Even when you play some freaky notes such as Db, it still resolves back "home" to C and that sounds like the resting place the entire time.

About some of your interesting chords....buckle your seatbelt....

You start with some kind of G Phrygian chord(or possibly locrian, I can't decide if I hear a Db in that opening sequence or not but I don't think so), which is the V of C. Then you resolve to C Aeolian(minor). You go to Ab Major a few times and back to C with some other interesting chords glueing them together that I don't have time to figure out from ear and tell you what they are. There is at least one Db Major chord in there..perhaps the one you're wondering about. Other chromatic embellishments are always possible, without considering them as freaky out-of-key chords or modulations as well.

Note that G Phrygian, C Aeolian and Ab Major are all exactly the same sets of notes.

Typical classical minor theory would use a G7 chord(C harmonic minor) for a V-I resolution. not a G minor chord with C Aeolian scale notes. By staying in C Aeolian the whole time, you are presting a "weak" V-I resolution. It is considered weak because you have no tritone present. You are leaving out the 7th in most cases of your V chords, so its not blatantly obvious since the 7th is part of the tritone.

If you want to hear what I'm talking about, try changing all your G Minor chords to G7 chords. That means using B natural and F natural in addition to G and D. riff around with the new scale that sounds right over that chord. That will be one of the c minor scales..maybe melodic minor, but with a B natural for sure. You might also try G Mixolydian for kicks(all white keys). I think you will find the B natural on that chord sounds more "traditional".

By not using the "traditional" way, you are staying hard attached to the C Aeolian mode. What it does is make your V-I resolution a little more subtle since the tritone resolution is missing.

Fine so far?

Now about the DbMajor chord you have in there. That can by analyzed three ways that I can think of. One way is to say you simply change the mode from C Aeolian to C Phrygian..which adds Db. This is simple modal interchange according to Berklee and the DbMaj7 chord is definitely one that can used, without destroying the tonal key center. Another, and I think better way of analyzing this chord is to call it a Sub-V7 chord, another Berklee/Jazz-ism.

A Sub-V7 chord is basically a chord that is formed using the same tritone as the V7 chord but swapping out which note of the tritone is the 7th of the chord. So for example:

G7 = G B D F (tritone = B-F)

Swap the tritone

Db7 = Db F Ab B (technically speaking its Cb, not B, but same tritone F-B)

So in the key of C, the Db7 chord is the Sub-V7 chord and fufills a dominant function. It resolves down a half step to I.

What I'm getting to, is that in the key of C, you can freely substitute a Db7 with a G7 chord when resolving back to the I chord. They both function the same way. They sound different, but the ear hears the tritone resolution, a very strong force in music.

I believe that in traditional classical music theory, that Db7 chord can be spelled a different way and look like an Aug6 chord, which is how classical theory would explain it (I can't remember which one it is).

Some of what I am talking about above is obscurred by the fact that you aren't playing the 7th of these V chords. So you're hiding the tritone..not playing it in either the G minor chord or the DbMaj chord. But functionally..that is what is going on..

Similar to the experiment I told you before to try the G7 chord instead of the G minor chord...try adding a B natural note to the section where you are playing the DbMaj chord and see how it sounds and how it resolves back to the C minor. You will hear that Strong tritone sound and its desire to resolve back to your I chord.

No modulation happening at all...

[dewdman42]

PS - one more cool thing I discovered last week is that if you combine the notes of a V7 chord with a Sub-V7 chord into one monster chord, it basically ends up sounding like the ultimate bad guy chord.

[Fabio]

I do not hear any modulation in that MP3. Modulation can be explained in all kinds of complicated terms,...

No modulation happening at all...

My friend, you did an excellent and interesting exercise of analysis, but sorry I don't agree.:D

Probably our friend is not able of understanding you. Probably Mozart had not been able of understanding you. Probably I can find a lot of different names and reasons for the same process you analize as a jazz harmony exercise.

Theory is a very ancient art. And it has evolved in actual wide multy-layered overlapping of names, schools, and cultural trends. Then why you use an ancient word like "modulation" or "key" beside some jazzy modal names and assumptions? Because you are familiar with it.

But it's not the only way of approaching a piece that being so "naif" is not yet in a well defined style. (C minor? a so happy melody? No, please....What? Didn't you know that minor can be happy?...Yes I know, but it's not in a tonal piece...What? Tonal? It's modal, not tonal...Modal? Then why you use "minor"? Modal is neither minor or major...it's modal!...No, in every mode you find maj or min chords...Yes, but if they are in a modal compositions, usually they are missing tonal functionality, it's a matter of intervals....No my friend it exist european modal music based only on triads...Yes i know, but it's like some medieval atmosphere of french composers, sad and melancolic...Sad? No I feel it more suspended than sad...Suspended? What's suspended? A triad is always defined...a fifth can be suspended...a fifth? What? a fifth is only "empty"...a cluster is more suspended...etc etc and so on blah blah blah...:D :p ;) )

My answer was a short pre-summary of your one...:cool:

1) no only one old way to understand modern music.
2) please go on studying theory, and you will discover a world of new way to make more "conscious" music!

Thanks for your contribution, it's a good point anyway!

[Fabio]

PS - one more cool thing I discovered last week is that if you combine the notes of a V7 chord with a Sub-V7 chord into one monster chord, it basically ends up sounding like the ultimate bad guy chord.

If G7 is the V7 of C, what a Sub-V7 chord is? F ? F#? Gb? Let me know please.

Monster chord? How many voices are necessary to play a "monster chord"?

"Ultimate bad guy chord"? what harmony book is introducing this new classification of chords?:D :p ;)

Anyway you are right. If you add any of the possible "sub" G7 to G7, probably your chord will rock! and yes it is a monster, bad guy, chord.

They (jazz piano players and arrangers) call it just G, and they add a lot of numbers and alterations (only for dummies), to let you understand: "...Please play it like a monster chord, and your voicing would be ok!";)

[dewdman42]

wow fabio. You're an aggresive guy. I would encourage you to do the same thing and read up about Modal interchange and other berklee inspired musical concepts..

I was not meaning to say this is the only way..in fact I attempted to intermix a bit of traditional classical theory with berklee's approach. Both approaches, by the way, leave holes in their theory that aren't explained very well...but at times if you combine them both you reach some understanding of why things work musically. There are certain things that traditional classical music theory does not explain very well. One of those things is the Sub-V7 chord.

For exactly the reason you said..people have constantly been ehancing their understanding of how music works. There are lots of theories and none of them completely right or wrong. But some of them do not explain why so called tonal music seems to work in certain cases..they get into a dead end where they can't quite explain it.

I stand by the original claim.if you don't want to learn some new theory concepts ignore my writing, but this piece of music definitely does not change its tonal center. Anyone with tonal ears can hear it.

Regarding Aeolian vs harmonic minor..fine....YOU GOT ME DUDE. Aren't you a smarty. I was trying to present a concept about functional harmony...and using harmonic minor(aka, traditional, classical, what they teach in first two years of any university) was a way to get to that point...to explain the mysterius Db chord that nobody seems to have a good explanation about.

The simple truth is that "functionally" this piece of music swaps between being in a hardlined aeolian mode....(thus the g minor chord) and using something closer to the harmonic minor scale. So you can talk about whether its based on Harmonic minor with a modal interchange to aeolian or based on old modal aeolian with an occasional drift into harmonic minor..whatever. I will not follow up this thread with any more debating with you.... you missed the point entirely..

[Ed Sharpe]

If G7 is the V7 of C, what a Sub-V7 chord is? F ? F#? Gb? Let me know please.

Monster chord? How many voices are necessary to play a "monster chord"?

"Ultimate bad guy chord"? what harmony book is introducing this new classification of chords?:D :p ;)

Anyway you are right. If you add any of the possible "sub" G7 to G7, probably your chord will rock! and yes it is a monster, bad guy, chord.

They (jazz piano players and arrangers) call it just G, and they add a lot of numbers and alterations (only for dummies), to let you understand: "...Please play it like a monster chord, and your voicing would be ok!";)

He might mean the tri-tone subistute chord, which for G7 would be Db7. (The tritone in both chords are the same notes (enharmonically spelled G7[B-F] Db7[F-Cb])).

[Fabio]

HOW many voices are necessary to play a monster chord...hmmm?

It seems to be silly, but the question above has a real answer.

My compliments to the first posting the right answer...:rolleyes:

Hunt is open....

[dewdman42]

Yes Ed. If you read my longer post.. I clearly called it a Sub-V7 chord.

[Fabio]

wow fabio. You're an aggresive guy. I would encourage you to do the same thing ...
I was not meaning to say this is the only way..in fact I attempted to intermix a I will not follow up this thread with any more debating with you.... you missed the point entirely..

Sorry, sorry and sorry again. I was just kidding, and all my compliments are sincere. And if you read what I wrote before, I was never arguing about "modulation" :D (for me you need at least three chords and a confirming cadenza to create a modulation, but it's a matter of school...)

No aggressive, no debating, just appreciating your point, and suggesting it's not the only one, then please don't confuse too much the beginner asking for help!:)

Apologies for misunderstanding, you have my whole friendship and respect!

[Fabio]

...any answer to my question':D

[dewdman42]

Db7 is the sub-V7 chord in the key of C. It functions just like G7.

[Fabio]

He might mean the tri-tone subistute chord, which for G7 would be Db7. (The tritone in both chords are the same notes (enharmonically spelled G7[B-F] Db7[F-Cb])).

Thankyou. Then sub. is for "substitution". I didn't know, because we call Sub. what is "below" like "sottodominante" is the chord below the V.

Is it Berkley jazz theory? I can't believe that only one "substitution" exist of course...If it's the meaning, i don't agree with, it's a reductive standardization. But forgive me I'm a classically educated composer, and my knowledge of modal and jazz music is based on a totallly different set of words, the classical composers of European schools use to analize any kind of modern music.

It's very nice to find different schools to learn, it make it more international.

[Fabio]

...but my question was: how many voices are required to play a "monster chord"...:D

And it has a real answer. Please propose your one!

[Fabio]

Ok, because nobody had the answer (sorry my fault, my sense of humor probably failed...;-), I will post it:

Q: how many voices are necessary to play a monster chord?

A1: a lot. (it's obvious but not enough scientific...:D )

A2: a lot, but anyway no more than 12. (it's what a composer say;) ).

The monster chord effect described by dewdman42, it's in fact possible playing several layering with appropriate voicing, to avoid just the "cluster" effect, and creating a wider harmony.

But the 12 semitones, one time you used all of them, are the limit, before you start finding enharmonic unisons.

Comments?

[dewdman42]

yes, sub = substitution, not subdominant.

Classical theory uses Aug6 chords for this I believe with different spellings, and I'm foggy on which is which, but I'm referring to Italian, German, French, etc, chords. One of those is this chord. The Sub-V7 chord can also lead into a V7 chord, which sounds a lot better to my ears when it resolves first to a V7 and then finally to a I. But that's because of my own classical music bias. But in Jazz of course they do a lot of stuff outside the classical tone box, without being atonal...so...In jazz a Sub-V7 to I progression is 100% acceptable.

I know this concept from Berklee theory that I have been taught and have read, but I'm not sure whether its exclusive to Berklee or if Berkleee is teaching a concept that is generally accepted in Jazz.. Berklee is a very Jazz dominated program. But I know they teach about it there and I've seen it in books written by Berklee professors. As well, my film scoring instructor taught us the Berklee way and used Sub-V7 all over the place to explain stuff.

Another thing, you can use secondary Sub-V7 chords, just like you can use secondary Dominant chords to resolve to any diatonic chord. Which opens up even more seemlingly non-diatonic chords that resolve to diatonic chords and thus the music never really leaves the tonal center. The strong tritone resolution makes those non-diatonic chords acceptable without a so called modulation.

In jazz you can also have the famous II-V-I progression, and secondary II-V-I. I say jazz, because outside of jazz...ii-V-I starts to sound VERY jazzy...especially if you start using a lot of secondary ii-V's.

Nonetheless, they are usable and if you remove the 7ths from the chord and keep it triadic..it sounds less jazzy.

For example in key of CMaj:

Gminor-C7-FMaj

that is ii/IV - V7/IV - IV progression using secondary ii-V. The Gminor chord is outside the key of C Major, but it resolves just fine and isn't really a modulation...just a V-I resolution.

All of what i just said also applies to the Sub-V7. For example in key of C:

Gminor-F#7-FMaj

And you can somewhat mix and match these secondary V7s with secondary Sub-V7's. For example:

Dbminor-C7-FMaj (though i think there may be some restrictions here)

All of that, in terms of Jazz enables you to use some chords that seem to be way out of the key, but the tonal center never really modulates to a new key. Its all based on the strong tritone resolution.

By the way, all of the above..even though its jazz theory...can be made to not sound like jazz at all by simply leaving out 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, etc from the chords..keep it triadic, but use the same functional analysis and suddendly it won't feel like jazz..it will just feel like an interesting chord progression that has non-diatonic chords which still somehow resolve back to the original key.

We have been studying a lot of this in my film scoring class...and though it comes from Berklee and is used heavily in jazz..the whole approach is definitely applicable to non-jazz situations and explains a number of situations in music where traditional classical theory often can only say "well it modulated briefly". But there is perhaps a better explanation that explains it using V-I resolution or rather tritone resolution. That is the berklee/jazz way of looking at it.

On top of all that Berklee and Jazz deal with a concept called "Modal Interchange" which is a seperate topic but involves the idea of temporarily switching to a different mode to obtain new chords in addition to the diatonic ones. If you do more than 3 interchanged chords in a row, then the tonal center will change. But they are often used as connector chords or glue between other diatonic chords. And guess what, you can use secondary dominants and secondary sub-V7's of those as well...so just imagine all the possibilities...without ever leaving the tonal center.....aka......without modulating.

[Fabio]

yes, sub = substitution, not subdominant.

Classical theory uses Aug6 chords for this I believe with different spellings, and I'm foggy on which is which, but I'm referring to Italian, German, French, etc, chords. ....aka......without modulating.

Believe me or not, I agree with EVERYTHING you wrote!

Well explained and perfectly understandable.
Thanks also for let me know more about your experiences in theory study. I'm very curious about foreing didactic, not so well known in Italy, with the only exception of jazz of course.

This is the reason to chat on the forum about silly as about serious things.

Nice to meet you dewdman42!

P.S. be aware that "modal interchange" is an universally accepted concept in classical harmony also! I think it was already used in some very old books.

[dewdman42]

The so called "monster" chord I was referring to...i used the word "monster" to mean huge, not as in scary monster. But its basically a V7(b5, b9) chord, so ok...i guess it doesn't have ALL the notes from both chords combined. All but one. Anyway, its a great chord for film music and the point I was trying to make is that it happens to be all the notes from the V7 and its Sub-V7 counterpart..combined into one chord (will minus the the 5th). Based on the same tritone. Its cool chord...hard to know how anyone would come up with a G7(b5, b9) chord, but basically, that's what I'm saying is that its those two functionaly compatible chords combined into one...and it sounds cool...that's all I was trying to say.

[Fabio]

Maybe you can find interesting that the big difference between what you say and the approach I'm used to, is the counterpoint approach.

You analize every chord connection, based on single chord identification and at least function.

But the origin of harmony is counterpoint, and the origin of chord function is the function of melodic motion of single voices.

Starting from this point it doesn't make sense to find out what a strange chord is: probably the motion of the single voices is enough to justify.

What people call "Wagnerian revolution" has been to use the unexpected and free movements of single voices, creating counterpoint and a nice new harmonic flavour. The old classical and romantic harmony didn't survive to the strenght of Wagnerian chromatic counterpoint.

You may need pages of harmonic exceptions to describe chords and functions in Wagner...or just a word: counterpoint, chromatic counterpoint, that's all!

[Fabio]

The so called "monster" chord I was referring to...i used the word "monster" to mean huge, not as in scary monster. But its basically a V7(b5, b9) chord, so ok...i guess it doesn't have ALL the notes from both chords combined. All but one. Anyway, its a great chord for film music and the point I was trying to make is that it happens to be all the notes from the V7 and its Sub-V7 counterpart..combined into one chord (will minus the the 5th). Based on the same tritone. Its cool chord...hard to know how anyone would come up with a G7(b5, b9) chord, but basically, that's what I'm saying is that its those two functionaly compatible chords combined into one...and it sounds cool...that's all I was trying to say.

yes i was not fooling you (sorry for my English). I've perfectly understood, and agreed. You also can agree with the huge chord theory I wrote above...
12 tunes are possible as a limit. It's just a matter of voicing, and it can sound huge, not scary, and really a bad guy chord.

[dewdman42]

Hey, cool. Which one are you?

[dewdman42]

Regarding counterpoint..indeed, that's a whole nother topic.

[dewdman42]

Tom, are you the one that was sitting right in front of me and figured out that the V7(b5, b9) chord is the V7 and Sub-V7 combined?

[dewdman42]

So I overheard you say you picked up Emerald. I would be very interested to hear how it compares or enhances your GPO experience... Will be interesting next week to see Gary's demo...I hope he shows off Advanced..

[Fabio]

Regarding counterpoint..indeed, that's a whole nother topic.

Probably I was not clear enough, if this is your answer.

Counterpoint isn't just fugue and complex poliphony.

I talk about harmony, and harmonic analysis based on counterpoint approach.

The contrapunctal dimension of harmony is the key to understand and analize "something more than chords", creating the link between or the bridge from renaissance to atonal harmonic sequences: the contemporary sounds groups generated by voices motion.

In the chords you talk about like "sub. V7" and some interesting combination like your b5 b9 added V7 (as a summ of sub V7 and V7) the function of single notes is so strong, that you may analize it as a source of suggestions for other chords, generated by single voices tendence. The convergence or divergence of altered sounds created by chromatism is probably easier to explain with single voice motion analysis, than with complex chord structure and exceptions/variations.

But the main point is: if you use every single voice function instead of the chordal block, you already know "how to move voices" inside an arrangement or an orchestration. If you use chords as a pattern, like a guitar chord or a sequencer-arranger chord, or a pop music score, you need additional work and study before you distribute corectly all sounds to every voice. that's all. (but it's a lot, isn't it? ;) )

[Fabio]

So I overheard you say you picked up Emerald. I would be very interested to hear how it compares or enhances your GPO experience... Will be interesting next week to see Gary's demo...I hope he shows off Advanced..

Are you talking to me? If you are, yes we can exchange/share experiences.

If you are not, be aware I'm also a new Emerald user after long and successful use of GPO. I'm also waiting for Advanced, even if I suspect it's not very close.

[musical.matthew]

Are you talking to me? If you are, yes we can exchange/share experiences.

If you are not, be aware I'm also a new Emerald user after long and successful use of GPO. I'm also waiting for Advanced, even if I suspect it's not very close.

What is Emerald? I've never heard of it...

[dewdman42]

My question was for Tom. Emerald is the new symphony lib from Kirk Hunter that is on sale until the 15th.