New Intel Macs Will NOT Boot Windows Vista

[fastlane]

Microsoft has changed their plans for supporting EFI booting which is a must for the new Intel Macs. Read the linked article.

http://apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/E666E4A0A303D9AACA25712C008166C4

[Wheat Williams]

That's certainly a bummer. But don't forget that Microsoft sells Virtual PC for running Windows on G3, G4 and G5 Macintoshes. It is in their interest to come up with a solution for running Windows (XP or Vista) in some sort of emulation on Mac Intel.

Just wait awhile and the market will deliver a solution for running Windows on Mac Intel. It may not be entirely neat and tidy but it's almost sure to be faster than running Virtual PC on a G5.

[fastlane]

Well, it does quash John Dvork's fantasy that Apple is going to switch to Windows. :D

[Wheat Williams]

Don't worry about John Dvorak. He's unquashable.

I've been reading his prognostications on and off for twenty years. I can't think of another journalist who is so consistently wrong or off-base, yet retains his job decade in and decade out.

[ptram]

Hi,

On the contrary, I can safely state: Windows XP Boots on a MacBook Pro:

http://www.mathcaddy.com/windowsxpbootsonamac%21%21%21%211/

Cheers,
Paolo

[Christopher Duncan]

Although there's a veeery long list of things in life that I don't understand, you can put this one at the top of the list - why on earth would anyone owning a Mac want to install Windows? I mean, the cool thing about the Mac experience is the Mac OS (and this is from a guy with 20 years on MS based PCs). It's like buying a Ferrari, stripping out the motor and transmission, and then sticking in the guts from an old Ford Pinto! :eek: And then making payments on the Ferrari. :rolleyes:

Good heavens, if you want to install Windows, buy a cheap PC clone. Without the Mac OS, a Mac is just a rather expensive piece proprietary of Apple hardware.

[dpc]

why on earth would anyone owning a Mac want to install Windows? I mean, the cool thing about the Mac experience is the Mac OS

For sure. Windows is sort of bad attempt at the original Mac OS anyway. It's unstable, buggy, virus prone and all the rest. I know, I have two PC's running XP and Gigastudio. Loading VI's on a G5 in OSX or even browsing the net is quantum beyond the whole Windows experience.

[Jerry W.]

Although there's a veeery long list of things in life that I don't understand, you can put this one at the top of the list - why on earth would anyone owning a Mac want to install Windows? I mean, the cool thing about the Mac experience is the Mac OS (and this is from a guy with 20 years on MS based PCs). It's like buying a Ferrari, stripping out the motor and transmission, and then sticking in the guts from an old Ford Pinto! :eek: And then making payments on the Ferrari. :rolleyes:

Good heavens, if you want to install Windows, buy a cheap PC clone. Without the Mac OS, a Mac is just a rather expensive piece proprietary of Apple hardware.
Christopher,

That was about the most concise, logical and practical way of putting it I have ever seen. I couldn't agree with you more.

:)

But that being said - the reason people wants to do that is because - both Apple and MS are saying that it WON'T be done. It won't be supported. And nothing drives geeks more than a challenge from the makers of software who PUPOSEFULLY go out of their way to make it hard to do.

(notice there are a few sites now who show you how to run OSX on a PC - with several hacks)


:) Jerry Wickham

[SeanHannifin]

Hi,

On the contrary, I can safely state: Windows XP Boots on a MacBook Pro:

http://www.mathcaddy.com/windowsxpbootsonamac%21%21%21%211/

:D :D :D Nice...

[ptram]

why on earth would anyone owning a Mac want to install Windows?

I sometimes must write documentation for software running on a PC, and test websites on a PC. At the moment, I do this by either running a (slow) software PC simulator, or turning on a real PC (unconfortable). Having the emulation embedded in the Mac would make things easier and speedier.

Also, I live in Italy, where very few enclyclopias and law CDs are available on the Mac.

Paolo

[fastlane]

I sometimes must write documentation for software running on a PC, and test websites on a PC. At the moment, I do this by either running a (slow) software PC simulator, or turning on a real PC (uncomfortable). Having the emulation embedded in the Mac would make things easier and speedier.

Also, I live in Italy, where very few enclyclopias and law CDs are available on the Mac.

Paolo

I'm sure the PC emulation software when it becomes available for Vista on the Intel Macs will be much faster, but like now, support for midi and audio software won't be there.

[jesshmusic]

I cringed when I had to install Microsoft Word and Excel on my computer for Grad school papers and such.

If I ever had to switch to a Windows based computer.. in other words some freak natural disaster destroyed every single Apple computer on the planet and no more were made.... Well... I would cry. :p .. or go back to writing my music by hand.

[dbudde]

I cringed when I had to install Microsoft Word and Excel on my computer for Grad school papers and such.


Just so you know...Excel was developed first for the Mac and then ported to the PC. IMO, this is simply the best software program ever written.

Edit: And just so there is no misunderstanding, Microsoft didn't develop Excel. They bought it. It was called Multiplan at the time.

[fizbin]

Ah, so this is the thread where all the mac users come to pat themselves on the back. I knew it had to be around somewhere. Do carry on.

fizbin

[dewdman42]

Indeed. Both are great platforms these days with strengths and weaknesses. To me it comes down to the fact that there are certain apps which only run on one platform or the other. For example logic, Digital Performer, sonar, etc.. If you really really want to use one of those apps, you gotta go with one or the other. Otherwise, frankly, they are about the same...slightly different way of working...but in the end, they are both solid, both stable, both easy to use, etc.. let's please not let this discussion digress into a debate on that point. There will always be someone from either side to point out some thing that one side does that the other does not. These are mostly all minor points anyway, and frankly both platforms have their positives and negatives in these areas. We've already heard it all a million times too.

I think there is a very good reason why someone would want to run OSX on a PC (which some people are actually doing now) or run Windows on a Mac. The simple explanation is that you are committed to one platform or another, invested in it, you've bought hardware, you've learned your way around it, you've setup backup automation, you've got the administration issues down, you have invested in software that runs on it, you have little tools you picked up on the internet that run on it...etc... These are all reasons why you would not neccessarily want to switch platforms lightly... yet.. There is some program that you REALLY REALLY REALLY want to run and you don't want to have to buy a whole nother machine and figure out all the things I just mentioned or switch platforms, just to run that one program (or perhaps a few). if you can boot your machine into the other OS, well then you can run it. Note that VirtualPC is not always a reasonable solution to this dilemna because if you're using any kind of special hardware with drivers, etc..then who knows...and of course performance is slower that way. And as of now, there is no VirtualOSX for PC's either.

Suffice it to say, I am pretty commited to PC's because I have to use them for my day job and that's that. I had a Mac for a while..nice machine and I do miss DP a lot. But really, there is nothing from OSX that I miss on XP except for DP. If I could run DP on my PC and it worked without problems, I probably would. But switching platforms for only that reason is not worth it to me so now I am a Sonar user. Having used them both extensively I can say with confidence that they are both great platforms, as noted before..and personally i think even people that are non-techies can handle an XP machine just as well as an OSX machine(XP has gotten simpler to admin and OSX has gotten more complicated then previous Mac OS's). Its pretty even playing field.

[pdNH]

My two Intel clone machines (one AMD Athlon, one Via) run Linux most of the time. The big one dual-boots to Windows when I need to do music stuff because the good music software is only on Windows.

Now if KONTAKT and Overture would port their Mac versions to x86-Linux, I'd be a happy camper. Even if they didn't distribute source code, which I doubt NI for one would be willing to do. Need the VST mechanism or equivalent to be there as well. While Rosegarden might do as a notation editor I think Overture is better, and there is nothing like KONTAKT in the Linux world.

[wst3ae]

If I had unlimited funds I'd have five machines in the studio...

1) PC running Sonar, Wavelab, Sound Forge, Acid, GPO, JABB, Finale, etc. Your basic mainstream PC-DAW. The tools work, I've been using them for a long time (well, some longer than others<G>), and hey, it works. Admittedly a big reason for staying the course is that I have quite a bit invested in the software.

2) PC running GigaStudio for the handful of libraries I still can not live without.

3) AMD Athlon running the CCRMA distribution of Linux and all the cool music tools. This would, admittedly, be an experimental box, but then I love playing with experimental music and audio software. Most of the algorithmic tools and things like C-Sound are all available for Linux.

4) Another PC for spill-over soft-synths. This is, today, a less than stellar solution, but one can only cram so much horsepower into a box, and I think it would be nice to be able to use Brainspawn Forte as a remote host.

5) A Mac, for that handful of tools that will never be ported to either Linux or Windows. With Max/MSP ported the list is getting shorter and shorter, but the one that jumps to mind immediately is "M". DP is another, but I'm not sure I really want to invest the time or the money in another platform.

Hmmm... I left out the sixth machine, an Amiga. Bars&Pipes Professional remains one of the most creative MIDI environments around, and I still use it, though not as much as I used to. I also still use Texture, and I have a copy of M on that machine as well.

If I could multi-boot a handful of Intel/AMD machines I'd be much more likely to invest in the extra operating system. Then I could get away with the primary DAW and maybe two more machines that could serve as Mac or Linux or Giga or whatever.

Wow, that sounds pretty cool really<G>!

[tunesmith]

I think Dewdman42 has it about right, I to am a PC user for many years. I used Logic 5.5 then Mac purchased it and did away with the windows format. So, I had a choice, but it was not much of a choice, completely dump everything and chase Logic, with no assurance that the program would survive; or find another program, which I did. Cubase Sx3.

My PC has been rock solid ever since XP. I'm getting my work done, making music.

I was talking with the CEO of a company the makes parts for computers and agrees with John Dvork's theory. As much as we want to think otherwise, it is about money

[dpc]

Ah, so this is the thread where all the mac users come to pat themselves on the back. I knew it had to be around somewhere. Do carry on.
fizbin

Not quite. It's the thread where those who work on both platforms state the obvious. Windows is not some terrible thing but Mac has always been a better platform.

[kbaccki]

Not quite. It's the thread where those who work on both platforms state the obvious. Windows is not some terrible thing but Mac has always been a better platform.

Unless you've needed preemptive multitasking and demand paging more recently than 2001, in which case a Mac wouldn't cut it.

[dpc]

That's assuming the PC is working. I use both platforms and stabilty-wise there's no comparison. But as I said, Windows isn't some terrible thing, it's just never been as solid a platform. Most pro audio people are dealing in both worlds now so it's a non-issue as far as either/or.

[Houston Haynes]

Not quite. It's the thread where those who work on both platforms state the obvious. Windows is not some terrible thing but Mac has always been a better platform.


You mean Mac has always been a better marketed platform...

:D

But all jibing aside, I think that the mythology of Mac being better for media development will continue to echo for a another year or so - while Vista, multi-core processing and hi-def gets worked out. Then, that too will go the way of the dinosaur just like the mantra of how PowerPC architecture was better...

:rolleyes:

Both assertions were true at one time - but the marketing hype outlived the truth by a long shot. But then again - sometimes that's what marketing comes down to...

[CHudson]

FWIW, I have had PT/Mac explode on me just as much as any windows box. Statements that Mac is more stable is more a personal experience than a real world rule. I have seen both grind to a halt and neither do it in a nice fashion. I have no huge problems with either my XP or OSX rigs. To fight about which is better is putting the cart before the horse if you will. They are both pretty good, most of the time. You choose your authoring, editing and compositional tools and run them on the supported platform, not the other way around. That is the difference between professional engineers and the IT dept of the local university.

[fastlane]

My iMac G5 has been hyped by Mac propaganda rags like PC Magazine.

It gave it an EXCELLENT rating.

"With the iMac G5, Apple has given Mac fans yet another reason to stay in the fold. And its unparalleled execution should attract would-be Windows PC buyers, as well." :D

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1648796,00.asp

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,124767,00.asp

[fizbin]

...wow, this is so informative! Windows and Linux users too! Everyone's spreading the gospel! I am now truly an enlightened individual. Thanks so much to everyone.

fizbin

[dewdman42]

I just don't get all the religous zest for one platform or another.

[wst3ae]

I just don't get all the religous zest for one platform or another.

At the risk of getting flamed... what's not to get?

Writing music is a creative endeavor that has always been somewhat dependent on the tools and technology available to the composer or songwriter.

I know that I have spent a great deal of time evaluating guitars (acoustic and electric), pedals, amplifiers, microphones, preamplifiers, compressors, equalizers, and lately, soft-synths and plugins, and the platforms that they are used in!

As a result, I am somewhat attached to those tools that I have selected. I try to stay open-minded, and in fact I wish I had at least one Mac in the studio to provide access to tools that are not available on the wintel platform.

But I am certain that my experiences, and the gear I have selected has made an impression on me, and it colors my opinions.

I'm reasonably certain that the same can be said of most of us here.

Now when it gets to be closed minded zealousness, well then I might agree with the question!!!

Take care,

Bill

[CHudson]

At the risk of getting flamed... what's not to get?

Writing music is a creative endeavor that has always been somewhat dependent on the tools and technology available to the composer or songwriter.

I know that I have spent a great deal of time evaluating guitars (acoustic and electric), pedals, amplifiers, microphones, preamplifiers, compressors, equalizers, and lately, soft-synths and plugins, and the platforms that they are used in!

As a result, I am somewhat attached to those tools that I have selected. I try to stay open-minded, and in fact I wish I had at least one Mac in the studio to provide access to tools that are not available on the wintel platform.

But I am certain that my experiences, and the gear I have selected has made an impression on me, and it colors my opinions.



Bill

I totally get being very attached to your tools. You know them, you know how to be creative with them. They allow you to acheive musically your aspirations.

What I don't get is the same commitment to the software OS they run on.

The OS should be a means to run your tools. The tools should not be "second fiddle" to the OS.

That I don't get....

I guess it is the difference between being a musicain first or a computer zealot. I'll take musician ;)



CH

[Houston Haynes]

I guess it is the difference between being a musicain first or a computer zealot. I'll take musician ;)

Aw - c'mon - that's a flimsy dodge... but a great way to perpetuate this thread for another ten pages...

:samurai:

However - while we're bandying about "computer zealots" - I agree with some of the earlier response - who cares about dual-booting any system? Pick one that works and stick with it. Both are mature enough now that you should be able to do just about anything on either platform - even if it's faster and cheaper on a PC...

:n:

Pro audio is a niche market to begin with, and the dual-boot thing is an early-adopter/hacker's wet dream - a dank, dark corner in a niche market of a niche market - who really, really cares?

[CHudson]

Aw - c'mon - that's a flimsy dodge... but a great way to perpetuate this thread for another ten pages...

:samurai:



Actually, as you can see I use both and don't intend to prolong a useless debate about who makes the best OS. Who cares ;)
Make some music and get over it :)

CH

[wst3ae]

What I don't get is the same commitment to the software OS they run on.

The OS should be a means to run your tools. The tools should not be "second fiddle" to the OS.
CH

BINGO! The operating environment (hardware, OS, etc) should be nothing more than an appliance. That's the fantasy that we've been sold for a very long time, but it isn't true yet. In order to get the best performance, stability, data security, etc you end up learning about the operating environment, it's a form of self defense, and,as a result, I guess you get attached to it.

When I bought my first personal computer for the studio I promised myself that it would be an appliance, and I promised myself that I would NEVER buy a compiler for that machine.

Over the years I've bought compilers, utilities to manage storage, back up tools, and heaven only knows what else to manage the environment.

We're not there yet, on Windows, MacOS, Linux, or any other OS.

Someday...

[Hermitage59]

BINGO! The operating environment (hardware, OS, etc) should be nothing more than an appliance. That's the fantasy that we've been sold for a very long time, but it isn't true yet. In order to get the best performance, stability, data security, etc you end up learning about the operating environment, it's a form of self defense, and,as a result, I guess you get attached to it.

When I bought my first personal computer for the studio I promised myself that it would be an appliance, and I promised myself that I would NEVER buy a compiler for that machine.

Over the years I've bought compilers, utilities to manage storage, back up tools, and heaven only knows what else to manage the environment.

We're not there yet, on Windows, MacOS, Linux, or any other OS.

Someday...

Having read all that, i wonder how close to it we would get if the hardware was optimised.
Say, a CRAY configuration?

Interesting discussion.


Alex.

[fizbin]

I hear the fat lady singing Kumbaya (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a980911a.html).

[dpc]

You choose your authoring, editing and compositional tools and run them on the supported platform, not the other way around.

Well of course, and in the process you simply notice both minute and general characteristics of each platform. Everyone I know that runs both prefers the Mac OS and considers Windows inferior. I'm talking the world of pro audio apps since that's where I work, so I couldn't say about other fields. It's not a biased position it's an observational one.

[CHudson]

Well of course, and in the process you simply notice both minute and general characteristics of each platform. Everyone I know that runs both prefers the Mac OS and considers Windows inferior. I'm talking the world of pro audio apps since that's where I work, so I couldn't say about other fields. It's not a biased position it's an observational one.

Be interested to know how many of those apps were written for mac first then ported to PC for financial reasons.

I know a few developers that actually greatly prefer the PC side, as well as those that prefer the Mac side as well of course. They can each give their reasons, which is why I say it is more important to pick your tools based on needs, not what the marketeers say their OS does better.

Bottom line, mac "guys" have always considered Windows inferior and most likely always will. It seems a religious war. I like Mac, I also like windows. Not for the OS though but for the tools I run on them.

P.S. Don't think for a second that most of in here don't use Pro Audio Apps. A good lot , as you know, do this as a full time gig.

Best

CH

[dabbler]

Well of course, and in the process you simply notice both minute and general characteristics of each platform. Everyone I know that runs both prefers the Mac OS and considers Windows inferior. I'm talking the world of pro audio apps since that's where I work, so I couldn't say about other fields. It's not a biased position it's an observational one.
While it does seem that long time Mac users seem to be more religiously attached to Apple than Windows users are to anything, I know several people who use both, and don't really have a preference of one over the other. I'm one of those people. I also work in a professional studio environment.

Apple's top ten reasons to switch... now that's funny. Its a shame that those top ten reasons are the best they could come up with.

[dpc]

Don't think for a second that most of in here don't use Pro Audio Apps. A good lot , as you know, do this as a full time gig. BestCH

Someone had stated a comparison between the two platforms that was not strictly audio so I was just narrowing it down. No doubt most of us here are doing something in the audio world.

I'm sure it's downright silly to have a relgious attachement to software. I don't know why anyone would be defensive about this or that when it comes to computers. If I didn't have PC's I wouldn't have Gigastudio which did wonders for me. In the process of learning the OS it became obvious (to me at least) that it is far more quirky than the Mac OS. I figured it out and don't really have any issues now but it took quite a lot to get it stabile. With my G5 I'm now steaming with virtually no tweaking at all so that says a lot.

But it's all good my friends. :)

[thesoundsmith]

Edit: And just so there is no misunderstanding, Microsoft didn't develop Excel. They bought it. It was called Multiplan at the time.And Muliplan was a rip of Bricklin and Franklin's Visicalc, which ran on the Apple II. I sold a hell of a lot of Apple IIs with that app. I had a quick "Sales, Cost, Profit" demo I could do in my sleep, and it sold the computer in ten minutes or less:

Here's the Sales Column (label 'Sales'). Let's assume $1000 first month sales

Here's Cost - assume it's 60% or the sale price, just to show you how it works - we'll call it 0.6 times Sales. That cell now contains a formula. But it displays $600, the result.

Profit is just Sales - Cost (enter the formula) Voila.

Now, if sales increase 10% next month (add the formula 1.1* the cell above.) Sales will be $1100.

So we can dupe the formulas for cost and profit down one cell, so all three formulae are on the same row.

Select the row and drag down to dupe the formula for a year.

Then show him the Sum Function, which totals each column. He's getting really interested now.

Now we have a spreadsheet with Sales, Cost and Profit for one year with totals. But they're all based on the first (and only) actual data element - initial sales. So I say to him, "But what if your sales were not $1000, but $2000."

I enter the number and press Enter. Every data element instantly updates and he pulls out his checkbook. Total time, 5 minutes. 5 more to get his check or card and another Apple II out the door...

The best comment I can make is to agree with the earlier post by Christopher - buy a PC, people. Current Windows boxes are cheap and reliable, and once everything is properly installed, if these are dedicated music-only boxes, they will usually run quite stably (I have had far fewer total crashes with my 5 PCs than with my one G4 (so far the G5 has only crashed twice, but I've only had it since December.)

And I guarantee running Virtual PC on a music-based Mac will do far more damage to the Mac's stability than getting the PC. Plus, it takes a lot of load off the Mac CPU.

[dewdman42]

I just typed a long response and this stupid forum munched my response and then when I tried to use the back button to go back and submit it again, it was cleared from the form. (BAD WEB PROGRAMMER!).

Anyway, this thread is a waste of time so I'm not gonna bother again..just wanted to complain about the forum software they're using.