Solo Cello - Place your wishes here....

[Worra]

The ulitmate Solo Cello - What features would you ike to see and hear?

[Marcussen]

Ok - here are a few notes - no idea how to acheive it but here is what I would like to see:

I want to be able to hear the grit of the strings - if possible either crossfaded or and have the string noise random (so E3 does not have the same grit every time)... Also you know how some guitar libraries have random squeeks - something like that when you hit another note.

Sustains must sound alive, and human...

[Hermitage59]

The ulitmate Solo Cello - What features would you ike to see and hear?

Hmmm, this will be interesting. The cello, as one of the most expressive instruments capable of so many different textures and voices remains a special part of any orchestra, or ensemble.

No doubt many will ask for the sweet expressive nature of a cello, so i'll go the other way, and respectfully suggest you record the harsh darkness of a cello. Not only the FF dynamic as an angry, doom laden voice, but the sinister quieter dynamics too, as the player leans into the lower strings with the whisper of intent.
Then there's the difference between the lower and upper strings. The darker sound of the lower strings should be distinct from the 'pleading' of the more melodic upper strings, and yet still be able to capture that resonant barely heard pp dynamic as the cello sits in unison or octave with the contrabasses.
And the friction sounds. Of all the strings the cello is closest to the human voice, so as we speak in many different ways, including harsh guttural sounds, so the Cello recording should have the noise of friction, including the strike of the bow on the stings commencing a harsh Fp or accent.
So many cello samples indulge in rampant OTT vibrato. That sound has its place, but a means of controlling ths would be extremely useful, as a lot of concert music in particular, calls for a less 'powerfully emotional' voice. It's the price Cellos pay for being so versatile!

Next, good fast attack sustains. So many times i've yearned for a straight sustain, without the inevitable lag, interpreted by those recording as 'correct.' It's not always true, and the cello can be as nimble as any instrument, hence the request.

The ability to vary the amount of attack, without the synthesised obviousness of manipulation. Take one accented sustain and vary the attack with the mod wheel. Doesn't sound right. Take one Cello player, and ask him to play a climbing or descending run increasing in dynamic and energy, and as the run progresses (towards an increased dynamic) the attack increases and changes with the player's perspective of the end of the phrase in mind.. A means to do this would be useful.
Crescendo/Decrescendo doesn't alway mean more vibrato, although many players use the added 'expression' to intensify the sound, particularly when building in a mournful or passionate passage. Sometimes Cellos need to play as a member of the harmonic team, and minimise or handle subtly the amount of expression suitable to the music. (Mahler and Shostakovich have both been destroyed by over expressive cello and viola players and soloists, eager to express themselves as obviously and as often as possible, with the greatest amount of 'angst' each time, ignoring any levels between none and maximum. Both these composers of a particular style, and many others, write to elegance and cunning, something so many conductors and musicians seem to fail to grasp. The great russian conductor Svetlanov understood this, and he was strict to the point of obsession with orchestral players and soloists, determined to capture his opinion of the real intent of these fine composers.)

Of all the instruments in the orchestra, the cello is unique in its ability to laugh, smile, cry, fulminate, and glow. To capture this would be a considerable challenge for any developer, and the resulting instrument would be of considerable size in terms of number of samples, and the mechanism to use them. And history tells us the great composers leaned heavily (in an orchestrative construction) on the cello's unique abilities and thousands of voices to bring so much creative expression to their music.

My last point has the potential to cause some angst. So please don't take this as the intent to start a nationalistic flame war. It's a matter of culture recognition, and sound from a listening, objective observation.
American Orchestras in general, employ a tendency to a earlier, greater expressive range than those of European or Slavic orchestras. That is, the point at which strings 'feel' they should push the expressive button starts much earlier in the note, and importantly, the expressive range is greater. EU and Slavic orchestras are a little more conservative by nature and tend to limit this range and moment of occurence to fewer instances.
Cellos are a big part of this, as a powerful vibrato from this instrument can overpower an orchestration.

And soloists reflect this most of all, as the isolated nature of their performance displays most clearly the 'expressive determination.'

It's not the volume, but the earlier expressive swell, and much greater intensity that makes this happen. I am NOT saying American orchestras or soloists are any lesser for this, only different, and maybe a reflection of the difference between the brighter, brasher, more openly emotional american cultural 'soul' and the more conservative, less openly emotional cultural reflection of the EU and Slavic nations.

When recording a cello i believe it would be useful to remember this, and maybe reflect the differing cultural aspects, with an 'EU expressive legato', and an "American expressive legato.'


Is this enough to get you started?

Regards,

Alex.

[Bill]

Alex, you clearly have too much time on your hands :)

Please give us an open C string without vibrato. Seems like a no brainer, but then, look at VSL.

[Raindog]

Just listen to this one http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41116&highlight=solo+cello

If Thomas_J didn´t fool us all ;) by presenting a REAL cello this is all I want to have in my dirty little hands. I think a non-vibrato (or only slight vibrato) patch would be an absolut must. Additionally, LIFE PLAYABILITY by heavily using scripting in Kontakt 2 (forget about the giga owners :|: ) is (my) top priority.
Regards
Raindog

[kip]

SUL PONTICELLO(various SP)
SUL TASTO
NON VIBRATO
CON SORDINO
COL LEGNO
SNAP
RICOCHET
JETE
ARTIFICIAL HARMONICS for the full range of the instrument.
Glissando

[Jake Johnson]

1. Close mics and not so close.

2. Different bowing positions: near the bridge,the usual position, and slightly higher up the fingerboard.

2. Different mic positions in terms of mic placement along the strings: near the bridge and up the soundboard closer to the bow.

3. I for one would like to have this as a vsti, but this is more a personal preference than any objective need. If the memory load isn't too heavy, I'd rather be able to press Ctrl-Tab in Cubase to change simple parameters than to have to gunk my way through Kontakt or Giga to make the changes.

4. Dry samples.

5. A strange one, and one that I'm not sure is possible: the ability to pan the placement of each string--just like as in some piano vsti's, one can set the width of the keyboard. No, I would probably never want to pan two strings to the right and two to the left, but I would like to be able to better control the separation of notes when playing double stops and chords.

[Rob Elliott]

evolving and 'controllable' vibrato.

Rob

[Markus S]

-- natural vibrato
-- "true" legato or some kind of legatoscript
-- warm and natural sound

[Theodor]

Exactly what Marcus S said! :- )

And lots of articulations. Double the number of samples for the short samples!

Medium marcato vibrato, short marcato vibrato, very short marcato vibrato.. :)

And effects if possible, please abuse the cellos!

EDIT:

And round robin notes, and player noises like finger slides and folley sounds of playing. :)

[Ivan P]

Also human body sounds (taping the cello, breathing before playing a line and little cello movement when playing very expressivo).

Also extreme dynamics (pppp, Sfzzzz, FFF)

Maybe some arpeggios (major / minor) as well?

[ddarwin7]

Just listen to this one http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41116&highlight=solo+cello

If Thomas_J didn´t fool us all ;) by presenting a REAL cello this is all I want to have in my dirty little hands. I think a non-vibrato (or only slight vibrato) patch would be an absolut must. Additionally, LIFE PLAYABILITY by heavily using scripting in Kontakt 2 (forget about the giga owners :|: ) is (my) top priority.
Regards
Raindog

Hi worra

Wow, looks like everybody is getting into everything. Garritan is sampling pianos, and Worra is sampling Cellos. Man, things have changed

I second Raindog's comments. Just listen to the Thomas J's piece. Also to add to that. There are lessons to be learned from the synful approach( I do not like the cello sound as much but I do like how it behaves). Another instrument to learn from is the Garritan Strad, which has fabulous controls.

I would like full control and flexiblity to add and subract nuances and sounds as I wish. For examble a control knob that would increase or decrease bow noise. Another knob that would allow human random variablity to just about any parameter you could imagine.

listening to lots of Yo-Yo Ma may help.

Just my thoughts

[Worra]

Cool - More suggestions!

I'm planning to do a pilotproject first, to focus on what to record more then the quality of the recording itself.
This way I could test different techniques and maybe let you guys try them out too!
Could be a nice way of building a virtual instrument!

[Marcussen]

Signing up for trying out :)

[Fabio]

Consider me a tester, please!:)

[Worra]

Well, what I'm thinking about is actually having the pilotinstrument as some kind of public testing.
Would be interesting to get as many as possible to chip in, (and then of course, I would be the evil dictator....).

When doing the pilot, as I said, I will record pretty "quick and dirty", not minding to much on the technical side, you know noice-to-signal ratio, eventuel clicks, pops and other unwanted artifacts, but record a lot and then toss around with different ideas, letting the whole of the NS forum be a beta team.

I think that this will:

1. Be a lot of fun
2. Make a darn good instrument
3. Maybe start a new way, (at least for me), to develop instruments.

Could also be a complete bummer, but you'll neve know until you've tried!

Then, when the pilotinstrument are done and I know exactly what to record, I'll do the full scale thing.
I've been working together with some g-r-e-a-t producers/technicians recently that I know would make a fantastic job in recording. I also know about some great halls and musicians to use, so this can be really, really great!

Still planning, so nothings carved in stone yet, but I'm really excited about this one....:D

[tim rosvall]

How about some choice of left-hand positions for the lower strings, maybe just one alternative position higher up the neck. (Sorry if that's a stupid suggestion, I'm a guitarist)

Tim

[Garritan]

Consider me a tester, please!:)Me too!!!! (wait.. can I do that :confused: :D ;))

[runamuck]

This is an important topic for me as I write primarily for a small ensemble consisting of cello, ac guitar, piano, ac bass and percussion. I do mockups for all the instruments except guitar, which I play myself, and then print the notation for the other players. In the mockups, cello is the one instrument that I always struggle with and here's why:

in both libraries I use, the vibrato does not evolve and vary as it does with the real instrument.

even though there are many articulations available in at least one of the libraries, there is not one that comes close to a very soft attack that grows naturally so I end up spending loads of time drawing in volumes curves.

it's very, very difficult to get anything faster than an 1/8 note to sound convincing. I find myself writing around the library. I would rather a library serve me than be subject to it.

the high registers in both libraries - the notes that are played for the greatest emotional impact - are shrill and barely tolerable. I'll find myself wanting to write around them only to remind myself that it wont sound like that when the real deal is recorded.


Hope that helps and btw - if you're looking for beta testers........


Jim

[Veron]

I would really love to see "True Legato".
And also an expressive sound, and at least basic articulations.

[Markleford]

How about some choice of left-hand positions for the lower strings, maybe just one alternative position higher up the neck. (Sorry if that's a stupid suggestion, I'm a guitarist)
'Sul altra corda', I think it is: 'on the other string'.

Essentially, I'd like the length of each string sampled, allowing for the user to select the position on the neck desired (and also for playing any string open).

Moreover, it would allow me to have one sample player per MIDI channel to send each string of my MIDI guitar to! :)

- m

[Worra]

Me too!!!! (wait.. can I do that :confused: :D ;))

He, he.... sure you can Gary! If I can betatest your upcoming Steinway....:D

[Ivan P]

Signing up for trying out :)

Same here!

[Garritan]

He, he.... sure you can Gary! If I can betatest your upcoming Steinway....:D:D :D I think maybe we should combine our resources and develop the first pianocello library ;) :D

[Marcussen]

Worra - regarding Legato. I would like some portamento transitions which are between VSL's Legato and Portamento. A fast portamento transition where the swap from one note to another is fast, but you hear the slide. VSL's often take too long to go from A to B. Listen to a recording of Shindlers List and note how many transitions have a slight and subtle portamento.

[Worra]

:D :D I think maybe we should combine our resources and develop the first pianocello library ;) :D

Sounds like a great idea! The more, the merrier! :D

[Worra]

Ok, lot's of articulations and styles, great!
Now, what about playability? Keyswitches? Different patches for different articulations?

[Per Lichtman]

Good luck with the project: Sounds exciting. :) I agree with a great many of the things said here already, but I would also like to mention one more thing. As someone who's primary keyboard controller has essentially no CC options (it's a Yamaha P-60 and I love the weighted feel more than any other controller I've tried) I tend to place a premium on libraries that come with good scripting/iMIDI rules already in play. More specifically, extensive use of things like round robin programming, even on my sustain oriented articulations can be very helpful so that I can focus more on just playing the notes. I know that I can't realize the full potential of the cello without using CC data and I've got a BCF-2000 on top of the keyboard that I'm still a little frustrated with, but more often than not I find myself writing in the automation after the fact. Just a thought.

Oh yeah, and even though it's nice to have more "neutral" or "classical" recordings to work with, I wouldn't want the so called "over the top" side to be neglected. I often like my cello passages to have a soulful or folklike character to them, even when using them in conjunction with the rest of the orchestra. :)

[Garritan]

The ulitmate Solo Cello - What features would you ike to see and hear?The Ultimate cello? Everything in this video and more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBTbC6ImCVo

:D

[Rob Elliott]

Wow - the represents a 'few hours' of work. Impressive.:)


Rob

[Rob Elliott]

Wow - the represents a 'few hours' of work. Impressive. Legato seems 'fake' though. :)


Rob