Howard Shore LOTR quote - thoughts?

[RiffWraith]

"You're composing not in relation to the spectacle, but in relation to the drama on the screen."

Just wondering what anyone else's take on this might be, as far as what he was saying, or trying to say.

IMHO, he was basically saying not to make the music too big, but keep it relative to the action you see and hear.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Cheers. :)

[PaulR]

Anyone else have any thoughts?
Cheers. :)

What he's saying is similar to what Jerry Goldsmith said - I think it was Jerry Goldsmith anyway.

When I see a man galloping flat out on a horse I don't score to the speed of the horse - I score to the expression on the man's face.

Or something like that.

[Pingu]

The cynic in me wants to say he's trying to excuse how shockingly bad LOTR is as music by pointing to its appropriateness in context.

[RiffWraith]

:eek:

You think the LOTR score is shockingly bad????

[jsp2]

The cynic in me wants to say he's trying to excuse how shockingly bad LOTR is as music by pointing to its appropriateness in context.


I thought the music was incredible... At least incredibly unique!

[Pfraser]

I liked LOTR music but it is suprisingly basic... like the tin flute song from LOTR that won an oscar lol.. crazy..

its simple music but its good at the same time.. music doesnt have to be complex to be good.

[LHall]

I think all music on the screen is really, really bad.

See what a superior musician that makes me?

[hywyn]

LOTR, - What is that?

[RiffWraith]

LOTR, - What is that?

I assuming that this was not a joke....

Lord Of The Rings.


I liked LOTR music but it is suprisingly basic... like the tin flute song from LOTR that won an oscar lol.. crazy..

its simple music but its good at the same time.. music doesnt have to be complex to be good.

It is basic, and somewhat simple. But it fits - which as we all know :ahem!: is the most important thing. The time was a simple time in many ways; to this regard simple music fits.

Cheers.

[hywyn]

I assuming that this was not a joke....


Errr, no. Unless I was funny in which case, of course!
So "Lord of The Rings", ......hmmm?

[CallMeZoot]

"You're composing not in relation to the spectacle, but in relation to the drama on the screen."

Just wondering what anyone else's take on this might be, as far as what he was saying, or trying to say.

IMHO, he was basically saying not to make the music too big, but keep it relative to the action you see and hear.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Cheers. :)

Interesting -- I think he meant just the opposite of that. I think he meant he writes music NOT to what you see and hear, but rather to what you don't see and hear -- the emotions, the subtext, etc.

chris.

[CallMeZoot]

:eek:

You think the LOTR score is shockingly bad????
Personally I'd have to agree.

Actually no, not quite -- I don't think it's shockingly bad at all. I think it's just fine, it works, it's pretty when it needs to be, it's exciting when it needs to be. It does the job.

But I do think Howard Shore missed out on a gem of an opportunity to create something really special. Tolkien created this amazingly detailed world in Middle Earth, which is complete in and of itself--it has its own set of rules, its own mythology, its own landscape, its own personalities, etc. The people have their own fears, prejudices, dreams, etc.

In my opinion, the music should have reflected this. Instead what we got was fairly standard fantasy music -- albeit gorgeous and effective and grand and sweeping and masterfully crafted music -- but still fairly standard. There's the provincial shire stuff that could have fit equally in any United Kingdom "period" piece, there's the martial battle stuff that could be pasted into any movie with swordfighting, etc. There's no sense that this is the music of Middle Earth.

Some of the Moria cues come close to what I would have liked -- they seem very otherworldly--the "music from under the mountain," as opposed to "music some guy in LA wrote about being under a mountain." If the whole score were approached this way, it could have been something truly amazing.

I should reiterate -- I think the LOTR music is beatiful and effective, and does its job just fine. I just think it could have really been something special and unique, and it missed the boat there.

chris.

[Per Lichtman]

I think he's really just paraphrasing what Richard Wagner said about the use of the orchestra in opera: The voices and action tell what's going on, and the orchestra provides the subtext, an external manifestation of the internal. That's the gist of it at least.

[dpasdernick]

I think the LOTR score was shockingly good but I'm Canadian (as is Monsieur Shore) I think the hobbits were Canadian too. (the feet are a dead giveaway) One of the orcs was Canadian as well, the 756th guy in that large battle scene, back row, looking a tad out of place with an abreviated hockey stick for a club. Howard Shore was in a Canadian prog rock/fusion band called Lighthouse (basically a non-commercial version of the american equivalant "Chicago". He played some sort of brass instrument that you blow in.

Now if you share all of this information with your significant other he or she will shag the living daylights out of you. It's true... Trust me... I'm Canadian...

Darren Von Canuck

[musicpete]

Well that Howard Shroe quote is absolutely dead-on. This is what composing for picture should be about, but unfortunately it has become a lost art. Too many composers nowadays are unable to see through the action to "what it actually all is about". Of course being the slaves of musically illiterate decision-makers doesn't help. Too much of todays movie music is simply distracting, brainless booming that duplicates on-screen action, and replaces communication of emotions by repetitive usage of cliched sounds and primitive musical structures. Nowadays I often find myself being pulled out of the movie experience by bad music that makes me cringe with disgust. I wish some studio-execs would realize the basic knowledge and truth in the above quote...
It boils down to one fact: If you're in hollywood and want to buy food for your family then you can't afford idealism. I realize that. But maybe everyone else could try to live up to the ideal that is represented in that quote. At least I will try.

On the old LOTR-discussion I would like to say only this: I like the music. Yes it could've been better. Yes, on CD it sounds terrible (especially part 2 and 3 which have been drowned in reverb) but the LOTR-concerts in London showed how this music could shine. Yes, Howard Shore himself knows that he could've done better. Just watch the music parts on the special edition DVD's. He had to literally write 15-20 minutes of music a day, often not even knowing if the scene he composed it for was still the same or already having been re-edited. Considering THIS pressure, I think he did amazingly well.

[thesoundsmith]

But I do think Howard Shore missed out on a gem of an opportunity to create something really special. Tolkien created this amazingly detailed world in Middle Earth, which is complete in and of itself--it has its own set of rules, its own mythology, its own landscape, its own personalities, etc. The people have their own fears, prejudices, dreams, etc.

In my opinion, the music should have reflected this. Instead what we got was fairly standard fantasy music -- albeit gorgeous and effective and grand and sweeping and masterfully crafted music -- but still fairly standard. There's the provincial shire stuff that could have fit equally in any United Kingdom "period" piece, there's the martial battle stuff that could be pasted into any movie with swordfighting, etc. There's no sense that this is the music of Middle Earth.

Some of the Moria cues come close to what I would have liked -- they seem very otherworldly--the "music from under the mountain," as opposed to "music some guy in LA wrote about being under a mountain." If the whole score were approached this way, it could have been something truly amazing.
First off, I think the music is beautiful and fits the character of the film and the lands quite well - as we in 21st Century contemporary society perceive middle Earth. I thought that the most important role for film music is to support the immediate context, and to a contemporary audience, raised on 'sweeping strings and choirs of angelic voices mean he's going to heaven, dark brass played loudly means something bad is about to happen...' the scoe did its job very well.

OTOH, Chris is absolutely correct - Tolkien had very specific cultural artifacts for every ME society, and in several cases, these included music, both as melody and lyric. I have assumed, without bothering to check if I am correct or not, that the song Gandalf sings as he first enters is basically from the book, I seem to remember there being a song there.

And it would have been wonderful to see these concepts and directions realized in the way he had intended - but then, changing media from printed page to theater screen changes a lot of things, and it may be that a score that worked great 'on paper' (literally, in the book) would not translate onto the screen.

Still, it would be a great exercise.

[drjohnny79]

It´s all about opinions.. but here´s mine:

Mr Shore has forgotten all about the importance of silence. I think the soundtrack is just TOO MUCH! All the time. It´s not that I dont like big epic themes, but IMHO the contrast in music is very important. I was disturbed by the lack of "rest" in the soundtrack, rather than by poor music quality.

It´s like he thought "Let´s have music everywhere." At least that was my impression.

/Johnny

[musicpete]

I kind of agree with you. When there finally was silence, it was sticking out in an uneasy way. On the other hand I doubt it very much that it was Mr. Shores personal decision! We shall never know...

[PaulR]

There's the provincial shire stuff that could have fit equally in any United Kingdom "period" piece, there's the martial battle stuff that could be pasted into any movie with swordfighting, etc. There's no sense that this is the music of Middle Earth.
chris.

You'll never make a film of LOTR that even comes close to resembling that book. The 'United Kingdom' as you put it has little to do with LOTR. England on the other hand does. But even that has little to do with Tolkein's idea.
The book is more to do with Catholicism. And that's difficult to film and score.

[RiffWraith]

Personally I'd have to agree.

Actually no, not quite -- I don't think it's shockingly bad at all. I think it's just fine, it works, it's pretty when it needs to be, it's exciting when it needs to be. It does the job.

But I do think Howard Shore missed out on a gem of an opportunity to create something really special. Tolkien created this amazingly detailed world in Middle Earth, which is complete in and of itself--it has its own set of rules, its own mythology, its own landscape, its own personalities, etc. The people have their own fears, prejudices, dreams, etc.

In my opinion, the music should have reflected this. Instead what we got was fairly standard fantasy music -- albeit gorgeous and effective and grand and sweeping and masterfully crafted music -- but still fairly standard. There's the provincial shire stuff that could have fit equally in any United Kingdom "period" piece, there's the martial battle stuff that could be pasted into any movie with swordfighting, etc. There's no sense that this is the music of Middle Earth.

Some of the Moria cues come close to what I would have liked -- they seem very otherworldly--the "music from under the mountain," as opposed to "music some guy in LA wrote about being under a mountain." If the whole score were approached this way, it could have been something truly amazing.

I should reiterate -- I think the LOTR music is beatiful and effective, and does its job just fine. I just think it could have really been something special and unique, and it missed the boat there.

chris.


It´s all about opinions.. but here´s mine:

Mr Shore has forgotten all about the importance of silence. I think the soundtrack is just TOO MUCH! All the time. It´s not that I dont like big epic themes, but IMHO the contrast in music is very important. I was disturbed by the lack of "rest" in the soundtrack, rather than by poor music quality.

It´s like he thought "Let´s have music everywhere." At least that was my impression.

/Johnny

Personally, I can't argue with both of your points (which actually are not all that different from one another). But bear in mind one thing: for every cue you hear in any film written by a composer, someone signed off on it. How many times do you hear a cue, and say, "oh the composer could have done so much better!"? Well, maybe he did. Maybe the original cue was much better than the one that made it into the film, but for some reason, the director said no. Maybe Peter Jackson during the first spotting session said to Howard, "I want standard fantasy music, and battle stuff that could be pasted into any movie with swordfighting, etc." Maybe Howard did in fact try and create something special and unique, taking advantage of Tolkien's creations, but was told no by Peter Jackson. Well, we will never know will we?

[drjohnny79]

RiffWraith: You got a point there. I guess it´s kind of silly blaming the composer for everything. He´s only a tool, and the director is using him, as he wishes. The director has got the power.

Evil Peter Jackson!

:)

[dpasdernick]

It´s all about opinions.. but here´s mine:

Mr Shore has forgotten all about the importance of silence. I think the soundtrack is just TOO MUCH! All the time. It´s not that I dont like big epic themes, but IMHO the contrast in music is very important. I was disturbed by the lack of "rest" in the soundtrack, rather than by poor music quality.

It´s like he thought "Let´s have music everywhere." At least that was my impression.

/Johnny

Perhaps it wa Mr.Jackson, who spotted the thing, and forgot about the silence? Mr. Shore did a great job. If there are those among us that can do better by all means let's hear it.

Darren

[Daryl]

Perhaps it wa Mr.Jackson, who spotted the thing, and forgot about the silence? Mr. Shore did a great job. If there are those among us that can do better by all means let's hear it.

Darren
And the fee you are offering is...?

D

[Marcussen]

How bout a beer next time I visit the UK? :D

[Daryl]

How bout a beer next time I visit the UK? :D
For that amount I might print a piece of manuscript paper...!

D

[Marcussen]

Two beers, and a foot massage - final offer!

[Daryl]

Two beers, and a foot massage - final offer!
Sharpening the pencil...........

D

[PaulR]

How bout a beer next time I visit the UK? :D

Oh yeah - do come over. Everyone else does. :samurai:

[Marcussen]

Oh yeah - do come over. Everyone else does. :samurai:
woa, woa - whats up with the friggin swords?!?

[PaulR]

Read my new sig.

:D

[Daryl]

LOL. Another couple of weeks and nobody will know what you're talking about. Now Prescott, on the other hand; that should be good for a couple of months....

D

[RiffWraith]

LOL - funny. :D

[Hermitage59]

Oh yeah - do come over. Everyone else does. :samurai:

Lol. That's uncontestable. :D

Have you started the bangledeshi language lessons yet?
You need to start fitting in, instead of fighting the system, Spartacus.

Oh my goodness, gracious me...:eek: (Practise, practise, practise.)


By the way,
Moscow's pleasant this time of year.....!

Regards,

Alex.

:samurai:

[Hermitage59]

LOL. Another couple of weeks and nobody will know what you're talking about. Now Prescott, on the other hand; that should be good for a couple of months....

D

Until Hewitt opens her trap again, or Darling, the transport idiot, gets caught staring at pictures of naked animals on the internet.

:cool: