Last About Rules!

[Fabio]

:) FINALLY I SUMMARIZE:

In Music "rules" (with punishment of deviations...:) ) don't exist.

In Music "STYLE" does exist! Rules, or better principles, are tools for identification and analysis of a Style.

NOBODY force you to Compose in a precise Style:
but if for some reason you want or need writing in a style, you MUST follow the rules and principles of the style.
(e.g. in a School Class, if you write a 4 voices Choral in the style of Bach, only exceptions used by Bach are accepted. You CAN'T create your own exception, or you are inventing your own 4 voices Choral style :eek: ).

WHEN YOU COMPOSE, NO RULES EXIST, BUT what you want and what you need.
Composing YOUR music, you MUST create your own Style!
(or you will be just a poor follower, even if it CAN be a rewarding activity, from a money commercial point of view :rolleyes: )

I SAY. (full stop ;) :D )

[Fabio]

....BUT:

DIDACTIC DOES EXIST TOO:
- during last century, a "reader-digest" of crazy rules has been distilled in several schools and books of school professor, where a kind of universal "harmony and counterpoint" has been collected from a patchwork of different sources (renaissance and baroque counterpoint manual, classical music forms, and romantic harmonic language).

It's quite easy to understand that this "style" is artificial and has never existed in the real world. It has been considered just an educational gym for young composition students of late '800 and '900 conservatorios or accademias.

To consider in the 21st century this method still valid is a frequent mistake of superficial teacher and most amateurish students. The mistake is still frequent, due to the large diffusion ( but acritic acceptance) of old books and old study programs.

AVOID IT! If you don't have the right teacher, and you don't study the history of music, you WONT understand, NEVER understand the meaning of the Harmony and Counterpoint rules of this old books.:mad:

[Styxx]

Hm, and I ponder ...

[theiss2003]

Agreed, but:

just as an example: no matter how you turn it, parallel fifths sound worse - so I avoid them... :-)

Seb

[Hermitage59]

Is this a rule to end this discussion about rules?

Or merely a 'recommendation?'

:p

[qccowboy]

....BUT:

DIDACTIC DOES EXIST TOO:
- during last century, a "reader-digest" of crazy rules has been distilled in several schools and books of school professor, where a kind of universal "harmony and counterpoint" has been collected from a patchwork of different sources (renaissance and baroque counterpoint manual, classical music forms, and romantic harmonic language).

I'm going to disagree with this comment, but only minimally...
I think it is quite wrong to paint it as a problem with the last century.

I think that the "rule" books from the last hundred years have an advantage over the older ones: they have a certain objectivity (notice the choice of words... a "certain" objectivity, so please no flames) brought about by the simple fact that we have more historical context.

There were MANY didactic works written in the preceding 200 years, and sadly they did NOT enjoy the advantage of historical perspective. The worst cases of "reader's digest crazy quilt" rule book writing date from the mid-romantic period (come on, some writers were arguing that the word "fugue" originated from the german "Fug" - rule).

_____________________

But with all these threads on "the rules", I still fail to understand why there is such an uproar! There are "rules" of harmony that are applied to certain types of harmonic writing. Rules = guidelines. Where's the problem? Once you thoroughly understand the rules about how things are supposed to be, you can then happily go about breaking all those rules and making music! Whence comes this drama spewing from the depths of Garritan-land thread-dom?

I'd like one simple answer, from someone who has finished their musical training, on WHY there's all this drama about "rules"! If you're in a high-school music class, or in the middle of a bachelors of science with a minor in music, please, don't answer!

WHAT
IS
THE
PROBLEM
WITH
RULES?????

[Skysaw]

But with all these threads on "the rules", I still fail to understand why there is such an uproar! There are "rules" of harmony that are applied to certain types of harmonic writing. Rules = guidelines. Where's the problem?
The uproar comes from mostly from people who are afraid to break what they perceive to be a rule as well as from people who have already done so and feel the need to defend their action. To those who need it, I hereby grant permission to write any notes you want, and in any order.

On the other hand, learning the rules is the very best training for your ear and your analytical mind. It probably doesn't matter much which rules you are learning, whether they be 2- and 3-part Renaissance Counterpoint, 12-tone method, Indian Ragas, or Harry Partch's 43-note-per-octave tonalities. In fact, I'd say learn as many different rule sets as you can; they all will benefit what you ultimately write.

But believing that the rules are fixed for music in general is like believing a painting can only contain a certain set of colors.

[Fabio]

The drama is when some friend get worried about parallel fifth or octaves, and start a debate if it's right or not to follw the rule to make good music!

My answer is, "if you make this question, you had a bad teacher..."

It has been considered offensive, and a long discussion started.

In the Italian Conservatorio and in European academies, we study the style, and also some old fashioned artificial exercise in Classical counterpoint or romantic harmony, but the teacher tell the student that it's not a real musical style, but just a "gym training" before the match, the real historical style composition, or free contemporary composition.

So nobody has any doubt about the sense of "parallel fifth" or similar rules.

But in the Forum frequently it happens, and I'm

- wondering why

- explaining the possible solution to the "strange ancient rules" enigma!

Just to add confusion, somebody propose to avoid study of composition, because to write music it's enough to transcribe what the free fantasy suggest. Nice point....

Probably in the new media world of pop ethnic and newage composer it can be true. In the history of music BTW it has never been true.

The future will give us an answer, today I have just some opinions to share.:)

[Hermitage59]

But believing that the rules are fixed for music in general is like believing a painting can only contain a certain set of colors.

Agreed.
3 colours, from which all others are combinations and derivations.

As for the historical perspective of discussion about rules, it's worth throwing in Ego, Pedantry, Vanity, One's own desire to be different, One's own desire to be the same, etc. Musicologists, composers, and orchestrators were, and are, just as prone to be desirous of fame, historical significance, and fortune as anyone else.
(Beethoven asked more than once how well Mozart's music was received.)

To wish to make a mark in history is not confined to meglamaniacal politicians and dictators, and as such, many rules, recommendations, guidelines, etc, are tainted by the personal aspirations of the writer. There are few textbooks that escape this in any craft, and music is no different. And competition plays a part in this too, as one wishes to outwrite the other, and pontificate in their own unique way, so respectability may just be their legacy. There are however 'some common structures' that define to a degree our perception of what may, or may not, be defined as music.

Just two roubles worth from one mere soul who has been fortunate enough to enjoy a lifetime of near total immersion in the study, performance, and creation of music, both rule based and otherwise.

Regards,

Alex.

[Styxx]

Still, without the initial “rules” there’s chaos. Some were made to be followed, some were made to be broken or changed, some were made to be refined, and some should not have been made at all. Bottom line, in our world today without the initial rules of any sort for any aspect of our existence up to and including music, would only lead to total disarray.

[CallMeZoot]

Still, without the initial “rules” there’s chaos. Some were made to be followed, some were made to be broken or changed, some were made to be refined, and some should not have been made at all. Bottom line, in our world today without the initial rules of any sort for any aspect of our existence up to and including music, would only lead to total disarray.
I disagree entirely. Rules were not made to be followed. Rules were not "made" at all -- they developed naturally as a result of composers deciding what they liked and disliked. Music came first, THEN rules came along to explain the music.

The "rules" are simply a collection of tips and tricks that other composers have figured out over the last 800 years or so. Music theory is a troubleshooting manual. If you don't know what you're doing, simply follow the "rules" and you're likely to wind up with something that sounds vaguely correct.

The rules are just like training wheels on a bike. When you're learning to compose, you're not ready to completely trust your ear. You have to go through the motions of composing, but you need something to help keep you on track. The "rules" give you an arsenal of things you KNOW will work because Byrd or Monteverdi or Fux or Bach already figured them out. So you can compose safely, knowing that as long as you're using the rules/training wheels, your music will sound ok.

Eventually, the goal is not to break the rules, but to transcend them, or at least to leave them behind. When I was a child my parents told me to never cross the street without holding an adult's hand. Now I'm older and I do it all the time. I'm not breaking a rule, I'm just at a point where I *understand* the conditions that caused the rule (fast cars can kill you), and I trust myself to avoid getting hit by a car without supervision. In music it's exactly the same thing -- once you reach a level where you can trust your ear, you will understand *why* the rule was there in the first place, and you can decide for yourself whether it applies to your situation--rather than just obey it blindly. You don't need Bach to hold your hand.

chris.

[Fabio]

I agree with the second part of your post, because my vision of the rules is quite similar.

But I don't believe in the "spontaneous generation" of rules coming just from the previously written music analysis or imitation. It is a misunderstanding of the deep mathematics and phisics, sometime philosophic planning of what the ancestors did.

Certainly the beginning has been mor or less spontaneous, but last 2500 years of occidental music theory are imbibed of mathematics and philosophy at least as made by euphonic selection of ear satisfaction.

A recursive event in the history of music, is the composition of music satisfying more eyes and mind than ears (ars nova caccia, early renaissance canons, chromatic madrigals, etc. going on to avangarde experimental atonal music). But sometime the results (considered by contemporary cacophonics) influenced the young composers for the intellectual strenght, and the creation of the mind became a practice.

Intellectual rules are strong as the euphonic rules.

Mozart was able of writing fantastic music without any known format.
But he decided of using the Sonata form for an infinite number of compositions.

Probably the intellectual harmony and the hidden philosophic concept of thesys/antithesys, masculine/feminine, was so effective and actractive that he didn't abandone it for the whole (short...) life.

[dalek3]

I thought you guys might find this a bit interesting, if you haven't already seen it:

http://www.music-cog.ohio-state.edu/Huron/Publications/huron.voice.leading.html
(http://www.music-cog.ohio-state.edu/Huron/Publications/huron.voice.leading.html)
Studies in how voice leading rules match up with music perception and cognition.. quite an interesting read! Shows the usefulness of many of the voice leading rules and how they match up with how people actually perceive music!

Mike

[Styxx]

I disagree entirely. Rules were not made to be followed. Rules were not "made" at all -- they developed naturally as a result of composers deciding what they liked and disliked. Music came first, THEN rules came along to explain the music. Where did I state the rules came "First"? :confused: I agree "Music came first" indeed I would be a fool not to concur. I was talking of the "initial" "the beginnings" of rules for music not as a precursor of but after (music) and of its own beginnings.

[dpc]

Wherever one comes down on the issue philisophically the fact remains that almost without exception all the great composers studied (and had their own style.) I include film composers as well. So one can delude themselves into thinking they are that rare exception as perhaps Danny Elfman is. But ALL these guys studied! (i.e. learned various principles and rules.)

It's a spurious argument without the weight of history behind it.

Even the great rock guys were students of their predecessors: The Stones, Beatles, Brian Wilson etc., studied their heroes as Bach studied Vivaldi.

[Fabio]

Wherever one comes down on the issue philisophically the fact remains that almost without exception all the great composers studied (and had their own style.) I include film composers as well. So one can delude themselves into thinking they are that rare exception as perhaps Danny Elfman is. But ALL these guys studied! (i.e. learned various principles and rules.)

It's a spurious argument without the weight of history behind it.

Even the great rock guys were students of their predecessors: The Stones, Beatles, Brian Wilson rtc., studied their heroes as Bach studied Vivaldi.

It is.

perfect agreement.:)

[dpc]

It is. perfect agreement.:)

Not surprised my friend. ;)

[newmewzikboy]

Jesu Christe. You guys still wasting time blablaing about nothing? Can't leave you in a room two days.

Here. This should get you all worked up:

If you don't write music using mathematical principles such as advanced set theory or statistics, or any other number of structural methodologies and spend many many hours in the labs and R+D land with pencil and paper, I just dont know how you guys can call yourselves a bunch of composers? I mean really, all this forum "love in" artsy fartsy self procrastination stuff is all a ruse and an intended distraction to make you guys "think" you are getting somewhere, while we who know all the rules and all the perumtated ways of writing incredibly beautiful couterpoint and harmony make leaps and bounds above you on the evolution chain. You all continue to live in a cloud of self delusion as bottom feeding krill, while we make musical genuis in the oceans of sound...

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris. Canis culum in tuo naso, Galli! Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

:samurai:

[Styxx]

Jesu Christe. You guys still wasting time blablaing about nothing? Can't leave you in a room two days.

Here. This should get you all worked up:

If you don't write music using mathematical principles such as advanced set theory or statistics, or any other number of structural methodologies and spend many many hours in the labs and R+D land with pencil and paper, I just dont know how you guys can call yourselves a bunch of composers? I mean really, all this forum "love in" artsy fartsy self procrastination stuff is all a ruse and an intended distraction to make you guys "think" you are getting somewhere, while we who know all the rules and all the perumtated ways of writing incredibly beautiful couterpoint and harmony make leaps and bounds above you on the evolution chain. You all continue to live in a cloud of self delusion as bottom feeding krill, while we make musical genuis in the oceans of sound...

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris. Canis culum in tuo naso, Galli! Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

:samurai:
I was wondering when you would get around to it. Now go lay down and ponder the universe before you worry me further.:cool:

[joaz]

make leaps and bounds above you on the evolution chain.

:samurai:
All that may be true NMB, but I like my job as a Musical Neanderthal.
The hours are good, there is a generous package of benefits and holidays.
And whereas you Homo Sapien types get lost in all your fancy calculations, using big impressive numbers like 11, I just say things like..."Aaaaw....thats pretty.......I think I will use it........."

Excuse me, I just heard somebody in the next cave has invented something called a Taiko Drum...........I had better go and investigate..........

regards Ugg

[newmewzikboy]

All that may be true NMB, but I like my job as a Musical Neanderthal.

Well...as they said...there are those that went to Eton...

and then...

there are those others that went to pubic sckool...

:eek: :) :)

[Styxx]

That Rules!

[Skysaw]

This thought went through my mind as I drifted off to sleep last night:

1. Rules are created by people
2. A new rule introduced to an otherwise complete set of rules is exactly equal to breaking an existing rule
3. Therefore, all rules are made of older broken rules

Let's face it, following someone else's rules never lead anyone to innovation. Those composers we remember best were innovators, which means they were breaking rules. I believe that if you want to be remembered, you MUST break rules. You have no choice.

[southportJim]

You all continue to live in a cloud of self delusion as bottom feeding krill, while we make musical genuis in the oceans of sound...
:samurai:

BOTTOM FEEDING???? BOTTOM FEEDING!!!!!!!!

Sir, we krill typically spend our time swarming freely in the photic zone. "Bottom of the food chain" does not imply "bottom feeding".

Hmmppph!
;-)

[dpc]

If you don't write music using mathematical principles such as advanced set theory or statistics, or any other number of structural methodologies and spend many many hours in the labs and R+D land with pencil and paper, I just dont know how you guys can call yourselves a bunch of composers? I mean really, all this forum "love in" artsy fartsy self procrastination stuff is all a ruse and an intended distraction to make you guys "think" you are getting somewhere, while we who know all the rules and all the perumtated ways of writing incredibly beautiful couterpoint and harmony make leaps and bounds above you on the evolution chain. You all continue to live in a cloud of self delusion as bottom feeding krill, while we make musical genuis in the oceans of sound...


I have a score currently showing in a very prominent film at Cannes, and currently finishing up an overture that is a model of counterpoint etc., and on and on. Most people I know spend more hours on the freeway in a week than I do in a year so I have a little time to respond to silly posts which are admittedly distracting.

Don't answer this - get to work. Now you can practise what you preach.

[Fabio]

Whel, actually I'm more like a big lazy megaptera, I eat tons of krill, as somebody eat me (:samurai: ...japanese-fishermen-make-me-sushi...).

If I finish my years in the water, I became food for krill.:eek:

Any relation with music or rules? ....May be not.:(

But I can find it anyway...;) :D

"The master of today is over actual rules, but his work feed rules of tomorrow, it's the circle of life...."
(Lion King)

[Fabio]

Jesu Christe. You guys still wasting time blablaing about nothing? Can't leave you in a room two days.


Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris. Canis culum in tuo naso, Galli! Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

:samurai:

Savia Anglica verba scripsisti, NovaeMusicaeJuvine: dixit poeta "ne quesiris, scire nefas, quem mihi quem tibi finem Dii dederint: carpe diem..." melius est musica scribere!

Sed noli necare pueros, etiam si gallos vel stultos! Fortasse educare eos necesse est :)

[PaulR]

Here. This should get you all worked up:

If you don't write music using mathematical principles such as advanced set theory or statistics, or any other number of structural methodologies and spend many many hours in the labs and R+D land with pencil and paper, I just dont know how you guys can call yourselves a bunch of composers? :samurai:

Here's some maths for you NMB.

Arsenal 1 Barcelona 2

Yack yack yack!

:D

[newmewzikboy]

I have a score currently showing in a very prominent film at Cannes, and currently finishing up an overture that is a model of counterpoint etc., and on and on. Most people I know spend more hours on the freeway in a week than I do in a year so I have a little time to respond to silly posts which are admittedly distracting.

Don't answer this - get to work. Now you can practise what you preach.

A PROMINENT FILM hahahahaha make me laff so hard i upchucked my borritoes. And over here...in this alleyway...

[newmewzikboy]

Here's some maths for you NMB.

Arsenal 1 Barcelona 2

Yack yack yack!

:D

basturd...

[newmewzikboy]

Savia Anglica verba scripsisti, NovaeMusicaeJuvine: dixit poeta "ne quesiris, scire nefas, quem mihi quem tibi finem Dii dederint: carpe diem..." melius est musica scribere!

Sed noli necare pueros, etiam si gallos vel stultos! Fortasse educare eos necesse est :)

lovely!!! I do like dis italian stuff...

[dpc]

A PROMINENT FILM
Yes, that would be the correct scientific and gramatical term: prominent. If you are given to hypebole you may be suspicious of it but I don't have that particular need. It's a truthful statement.

[newmewzikboy]

Yes, that would be the correct scientific and gramatical term: prominent. If you are given to hypebole you may be suspicious of it but I don't have that particular need. It's a truthful statement.

i love me tooooooo haha

[Jibrish]

It was well after lunch and time for a break when ole Wolfie sat down to his computer… "Now what the heck is this?" he said. And then the homely little old gent half cleared his throat and muttered…"Well would you look at that… the Beast-y has gone and reared its ugly little head…"

"You know" he mused "I wonder if the impetus behind this topic isn’t really just the continued prevalence of the Germanic-hero as a central archetype for composers in general... that kind of religious zeal sort of stuff… where the imagined lone-wolf goes off to the mountain and comes back with some great prophetic ‘B9’ kind of a piece… some imaginary musical work that changes the basic models we all previously worked under... you know that ‘revelation’ kind of thing… They must actually believe in that stuff!"

Then he strokes his mangy little, pepper gray goatee…

"The whole idea is an illusion of course… shoddy little trick played on the youth… (just our way of slowing down the competition, you know ;-)… it’s all rewritten history and one big garbled up myth after all… we all know that!… right!?!?...I mean ... hasn’t every notable achievement in the world come from some particular school-of –thought or another? Isn’t it pretty well understood that all advances are incremental and totally within the context of the efforts of the times in which they’re created? … um…er… eh… Sheesh!!!"

At this point Wolfie gets up… he doesn’t know why… but there’s something about this topic that just kind of pisses him off. So he takes a walk out on the deck and takes a few puffs from the gnarly little stub of a cigar he left in the flower pot… then he goes back to his computer…

"Alright…" he continues "so let’s say you (the Vile Vermin who dare put forth other views) retort: Yeah but! … music needs spontaneity… and… there IS no well-considered/ analytical, pedagogical way to be spontaneous… and even if logic holds that a need for education is true, where then are the recent musical examples that prove the value of such an approach in musical composition?... and… at any rate, maybe all that methodology is well and good, but… well… "It’s all been done ya ole geezer!" then he says "Hey wait a minute… Did you call me an ole geezer?… ya freakin idiot!… ur… hmm, er… crap…
and now I’ve gone and confused myself…"

Then… still panting… Wolfie turns ‘round and presses the ‘go’ button on his AMD 64 3200+… (the sample rig)…

"Maybe I’ll stop mining these stupid forums"… he thinks "and actually get back to writing music…yeah… that’s what I need to do"

But no… gangly ole Wolfie just can’t let it go… so he keeps mumbling…

"Why… in the old days" (now waiting for VSL VI to load…) "in the old days you didn’t need all this electronic mumbo-jumbo fuzzy click-ity sh*t… all ya needed was a #2 pencil and yer dang head…

…But now, these idiots have enough equipment to make a guy throw up on his freakin’ feet… and then all they do is sit around and whine about: "I shouldn’t have to follow no stupid dang rules!"…"

"why… if Beethoven were alive today… he’d kick the crap out of these little idiots… that’s what the ‘L’ he’d do, by God… He’d just knock the holy crap out of em…
whack em with his Ear horn…dang PC spewin’ little smrt alxs…"


Peace.

[newmewzikboy]

ROFL!!!! HAAHAHAH * * * * great!

[dpc]

music needs spontaneity… and… there IS no well-considered/ analytical, pedagogical way to be spontaneous…

Bach, Mozart and Beethoven where perhaps the three greatest improvisers who ever lived (spontaneous enough?) Also perhaps the three greatest student/teachers as is so well recorded historically. I suppose it would be okay not to be able to hold a conversation with them should paths cross in the cosmos sometime. One can write spontaneous music and leave spontaneous conversations about fuge and such to others - I heartily concur.

and even if logic holds that a need for education is true, where then are the recent musical examples that prove the value of such an approach in musical composition?

Everywhere.


"why… if Beethoven were alive today… he’d kick the crap out of these little idiots…

Musically speaking he definitely would. But who would want to listen to someone's music who studied so hard and is still the most rules absorbed composer who ever lived?

[Jibrish]

Wull gawwwlly Mr Conners… it wernt spost to make sense… its sarcasm thar mr musical monk man… purposeful ridiculousness…Weehaw! Jeeschio!

…ya don’t have to get all pedantic and preacher-ly and smuggy and stuffy and all that… it’s a joke man… ya know…r not serious?

(No wonder mr Wolfie got all pissed off…)

Besides… whats wrong with Handel and Haydn and Brahms?… wouldn’t that be condescending/ cliché and preschool-list-of-composers enough????

Have ye no shame sir?! Have ye thar, sir, no shamelness???!!!!!!

Why… if Piotr Tchaikovsky were alive today… he’d be the smelliest, shriveled-up composer who ever lived… that’s what he’d be…

So… say what you will there mr yon heir dpc, but I have it on the highest authoritization of pretentiosities!!… (well documented histrionically speaking…verry very well documaited sir).



Peace.


*nod to PR on the shriveled-up composer

[Jibrish]

All that may be true NMB, but I like my job as a Musical Neanderthal.
The hours are good, there is a generous package of benefits and holidays.
And whereas you Homo Sapien types get lost in all your fancy calculations, using big impressive numbers like 11, I just say things like..."Aaaaw....thats pretty.......I think I will use it........."

Excuse me, I just heard somebody in the next cave has invented something called a Taiko Drum...........I had better go and investigate..........

regards UggWell put as always Joe.

[newmewzikboy]

Im sorry...i have a PROMINENT FILM being screened at the manuree film festival and bar-bee-que and completely missed this thread listening to Coltraine on my headphones who was the greatest improviser that ever lived...next of course to Beethoven who Mr. Conner swears by buyt hever heard play live...

L.A. ==> pretentious?

[Jibrish]

Well... best of luck with yer scientific art film there NMB... I'm bettin it'll be a pretty posh affair... only the well versed in parentheticals I'm sure...

[newmewzikboy]

Well... best of luck with yer scientific art film there NMB... I'm bettin it'll be a pretty posh affair... only the well verse in parentheticals I'm sure...

(NMB) ^2 ()()()()() YAYAYAYA!!!

\\\\\\||//////
---- O O ---
\_________/

[Paul Blankenau]

NMB, once again you are complaining about people arguing some musical point rather than writing music. You do a good job of it, and particularly so this time, so I'm not complaining, but you might want to understand the motivation behind these discussions.

Initially, a composer must carve out time from the demands and desires of ordinary life. Most of us are beyond that point. People put more money in our accounts than we feel like spending. When we are hungry, the cook will probably have anticipated that and have something ready. Before the piano needs tuning, an assistant will take care of it. And practically everyone we see, whether employee or musical acolyte or groupie, glows with pleasure when in our presence. I'm not sure why that happens, and I doubt that we are much better than anyone else, but it happens.

That life can be pleasant for a time, but eventually it becomes terribly dull. Melville said the highest pleasure contains a spoonful of its opposite, as a warm bed is most comfortable when there is cold air on your nose. Charisma is not transmitted by forum posts, so we come here, where people will argue with us on the subjects we truly care about. Then a seed of doubt has been replanted: perhaps we are not creatures of transcendant beauty, as the groupies would have us believe. Perhaps we are just people, and if there is to be any transcendant beauty found in us, we'll have to create it. And then we compose.

[dpc]

Wull gawwwlly Mr Conners… it wernt spost to make sense… its sarcasm thar mr musical monk man… purposeful ridiculousness…Weehaw! Jeeschio!

You have my apologie in that case but I couldn't really tell. However you actually made a succint argument that's quite prevalent. You did follow up with the charge of pretentiousness which is also a part of the I refuse to study school of thought. But this lumps those great composers into that camp as well. I'm not defending myself personally. I'm advocating that peole follow in the great footsteps of those who have gone before. As I've said it's like a guy who wants to play jazz trumpet but doesn't think he should study Miles - he should because it will make him better.

But I do apologise - it was a universal post not personal. And you will see that many people actually agree with the view you stated.

[dpc]

Im sorry...i have a PROMINENT FILM being screened at the manuree film festival and bar-bee-que and completely missed this thread listening to Coltraine on my headphones who was the greatest improviser that ever lived...next of course to Beethoven who Mr. Conner swears by buyt hever heard play live...

L.A. ==> pretentious?

I thought you said that guys that posted here a lot were not actual composers? You're leading the charge as usual. So by your own definition...

Listen to Beethoven sometime, he's pretty good. He could play what he wrote and was considered hands down the best improviser in Europe. You could read that in a book. First listen and then read and than you may catch on.

Didn't that Jerry Goldsmith guy talk about studying with Jacob Gimpal? How pretentious! Where did JG live anyway?

[newmewzikboy]

Paul Blankenau's writing is by far the best thing I've read in this thread so far. Nice, nice job Paul...

[newmewzikboy]

Listen to Beethoven sometime, he's pretty good. He could play what he wrote and was considered hands down the best improviser in Europe. You could read that in a book. First listen and then read and than you may catch on.?
Once again dpc transcends the definition of pretetiousness...

[Jibrish]

(NMB) ^2 ()()()()() YAYAYAYA!!!

\\\\\\||//////
---- O O ---
\_________/Very nice picture NMB... Astec or Mayan was it?

[Hermitage59]

I thought you said that guys that posted here a lot were not actual composers? You're leading the charge as usual. So by your own definition...

Listen to Beethoven sometime, he's pretty good. He could play what he wrote and was considered hands down the best improviser in Europe. You could read that in a book. First listen and then read and than you may catch on.

Didn't that Jerry Goldsmith guy talk about studying with Jacob Gimpal? How pretentious! Where did JG live anyway?

Yep, I've got to agree with this, Dave. And given the 'accepted' constraints that composers of any era live with if they want to eat, enjoy the adulation, or get paid, then LVB certainly gets my vote as the 'Miles Davis' or 'John Coltraine' of his era, taking a leaf from the considerable body of work he wrote, for small ensemble as well as larger. And i think it would be proper to include Wagner and Richard Strauss in this too. Their vision of 'beyond the norm' started from a good geounding in music. And considering the impact he had in shaping the way of music into our current day, personally i'd say opinions crushing his 'formal' musical education as meaningless or irrelevant, are on the minority side. Using the word of the moment, it seems rather pretentious to so easily dismiss tutoring or training as too rigid or 'old fashioned'.

Damn, does this mean i'm not a real composer, even if i'm working continually, because i post regularly? And i've never been to LA either.

I didn't know that was the 'rule.'


Alex.

[newmewzikboy]

Very nice picture NMB... Astec or Mayan was it?
L.A.ish...

[dpc]

Damn, does this mean i'm not a real composer, even if i'm working continually, because i post regularly? And i've never been to LA either.I didn't know that was the 'rule.'Alex.

Laughed very hard at that Alex.

Well it's down right silly to accuse someone of being pretentious because they advocate study or they enjoy talking about the great composers. I was even taken to task for mentioning my latest work, something I'm interested in from anyone of any vocation.

Even geographic location has now become reason for for stigmatizing which you (being in Russia) know was a prediliction of Joseph Stalin. The deep thinkers here probably will miss the point on that no doubt.

It must be true that Los Angeles is the home of pretentious artists with guys like Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Bruno Walter, Erich Korngold, Bernard Herrmenn, David Raksin, Alex North, and Elemer Bernstein making their home here. Let's face it: you can hear just how pretentious they are in their music. Must be why nobody here wants to be pretentious. Who would want to be as good as any of these LA guys?

[newmewzikboy]

Laughed very hard at that Alex.

Well it's down right silly to accuse someone of being pretentious because they advocate study or they enjoy talking about the great composers.


It becomes classically pretentious because you, I believe, know so little about the subject academically, yet try and pass yourself off as someone that does...your lips move...and our minds cringe...


I was even taken to task for mentioning my latest work, something I'm interested in from anyone of any vocation.


"something I'm interested in from anyone of any vocation..." huh? is that an English sentence?

Anyway, your PROMINENT FILM seems to be a sidebar passed off as a major theatrical release by thou...what? By Mercury Underground Films?


Even geographic location has now become reason for for stigmatizing which you (being in Russia) know was a prediliction of Joseph Stalin. The deep thinkers here probably will miss the point on that no doubt.


dpc, ladies and gentleman, goes for the full title of "patronizing pretentionizer" by entertaining the art students and their personal icons of Moskva. Look ladies and gentleman, how he twists and leaps by now passing himself off as a Full Blown Russian Historian.

It must be true that Los Angeles is the home of pretentious artists with guys like Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Bruno Walter, Erich Korngold, Bernard Herrmenn, David Raksin, Alex North, and Elemer Bernstein making their home here.

Let's face it: you can hear just how pretentious they are in their music. Must be why nobody here wants to be pretentious. Who would want to be as good as any of these LA guys?

Stravinsky and Schoenberg never made a film and hated the place...as for the others...banal and redigested disposable giberish - music which I cannot stand...laugh out loud and say "ooooh pleeeze" and whats more are all...dead...no more...even "elemer"...gone...they dont live in L.A.

Which brings us back to:

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione...

[dpc]

It becomes classically pretentious because you, I believe, know so little about the subject academically, yet try and pass yourself off as someone that does...your lips move...and our minds cringe...

Yes I would pass myself off as someone who knows that all the great composers were also great students of their art. What are you having trouble with here? It's a simple historic fact. Why do you encumber the issue so? Is there something more to know on this simple point?


"something I'm interested in from anyone of any vocation..." huh? is that an English sentence?

It's English in any case. Did you not understand the point?

Anyway, your PROMINENT FILM seems to be a sidebar passed off as a major theatrical release by thou...what? By Mercury Underground Films?

I'll explain for you again: The director of the film which I scored (a collaboration with another composer) told me that the film...will be prominetly displayed at Cannes. Indeed it was and recieved a standing ovation.



dpc, ladies and gentleman, goes for the full title of "patronizing pretentionizer" by entertaining the art students and their personal icons of Moskva. Look ladies and gentleman, how he twists and leaps by now passing himself off as a Full Blown Russian Historian.

Well, you're really tipping your hand now. So any comment that displays a modicum of understanding about historical facts offends you as self aggrandizement? Why disqualify yourself that way? (no kidding.) You're obviously a bright guy so why the absurd criticism? Stereo-typing people because they live in a certain region is indeed Stalinism. Perhaps you would like to kill them by the bushel as well? Or just look down your nose at them?



Stravinsky and Schoenberg never made a film and hated the place.
You mean they never scored a film? That's okay I understood your point. Stravinsky had numerous correspondence with that filmaker of profound depth - Walt Disney. He also loved films. What is your source that he hated LA? You're the academic giant apparently so please tell me. Everything I've read suggests otherwise. You may even give page numbers since I have so much material regarding him. A single reference will suffice.

As far as Schoenberg I coudn't say. I know he wasn't treated well here. But I should probably act like I know all about him in keeping with your careful, thoughtful insights into my charachter.

Which brings us back to:

Doe a dear a female dear...

[newmewzikboy]

Facts??? there are no Facts here....only unsourced statements and garbongle...eleutheromaniacs HONORI~FICABILI~TUDINI~TATIBUS

[qccowboy]

so all I can say here is "wow!"
there are actually people who are preaching that musical education is somehow bad?
there have been so many latin quotes and senseless doodles and strange linguistic imitations going on, it's actually difficult to keep track of the actual course of this conversation.

maybe someone should simply post a poll:
do you think that musical (theoretical/practical) training is useless? yes - no.

[newmewzikboy]

do you think that musical (theoretical/practical) training is useless? yes - no.

No...absolutely not. Except............you need to have the curiosity to continue it and not be blinded by short sighted conclusions - by both emotional conclusions and by intellectual/dogmatic ones...both in yourself and in others.

P.S. and you need to learn latin

[Jibrish]

My vote would be that most of the ideas in this thread are impracticable and should not be performed.

On the more specific question of whether or not musicians as a rule need more education I would say: "Heck yeah... please do."

What a strange and ironical twist,
Where pomposity doth battle pretense,
And I (I’ll admit) in a brief mental wheeze,
Wonder dear Hermy NMB, Paul, qcb and Davey…
(As the middle isles seem to be a wee bit to the queasy)
Shall we now proffer strychnine… or a mere analgesic?

[PaulR]

It must be true that Los Angeles is the home of pretentious artists with guys like Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Bruno Walter, Erich Korngold, Bernard Herrmenn, David Raksin, Alex North, and Elemer Bernstein making their home here. Let's face it: you can hear just how pretentious they are in their music. Must be why nobody here wants to be pretentious. Who would want to be as good as any of these LA guys?

Yeah - Dave! Bernard Herrmann lived in North Hollywood and New York and then England.

NMB: I can vouch for Dave musically - very good musician. So don't start - or I'm gonna bite you NMB - I'm gonna bite you very hard NMB.

:D

[dpc]

Yeah - Dave! Bernard Herrmann lived in North Hollywood and New York and then England.

I used to live in NH Paul so I would be curious as to what street he lived on. Stravinsky was a neighbor and close friend of Fritz Zweig in West Hollywood (Zweig is the legendary conducting teacher and colleague of Bruno Walter.) They played cards all the time and probably conversed in at least three languages. I liked him... he had a biting wit... said Zweig of the great composer.

[newmewzikboy]

So don't start - or I'm gonna bite you NMB - I'm gonna bite you very hard NMB.

:D

BARFULATION!!

[PaulR]

I used to live in NH Paul so I would be curious as to what street he lived on.

Does Bluebell Avenue ring a bell?

[dpc]

Actually it didn't but I guessed correctly that it's a small street off of Magnolia Blvd., as that is perhaps the nicest housing area in the city. I've driven by there a few thousand times.

[Ernstinen]

I lived on Whitsett Ave. just north of Burbank Blvd., and back then I was an excellent, popular composer that followed the rules. Now that I moved to Chatsworth, I drive daily to my studio in Encino and write terrible, pretentious crap that nobody wants to listen to.

At least I'm still in the L.A. city limits. Go figure.

Ern ;) :cool:

[newmewzikboy]

I lived on Whitsett Ave. just north of Burbank Blvd., and back then I was an excellent, popular composer that followed the rules. Now that I moved to Chatsworth, I drive daily to my studio in Encino and write terrible, pretentious crap that nobody wants to listen to.

At least I'm still in the L.A. city limits. Go figure.

Ern ;) :cool:
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jibrish]

For my part… I was reading this post by Fabio and then it kinda spins into didactic silliness, so of course I, join in… because I’m a compulsive idiot… and I just can’t help it… however…
I would be quite happy to hear what ever Fabio might have to offer on the application of Early Music and Baroque methods (rules) in contemporary composition.
But I’m afraid you bunch a heathens have gone and run him off…agian.

[Jibrish]

dpc,

I'll have to admit it's not the first time my intention was misread by about a 180 degrees... and almost always while I was trying to interject a little levity. Neither humor nor the Literary were my first calling... as I'm sure you can see.

Good day to all of ya.

Peace.

[PaulR]

I understand that Traverse Bay has a very nice golf course?

:D

[Jibrish]

Well hey to ya PaulR. That we do... though I'll have to say... It doesn't see much of me.

[PaulR]

I lived on Whitsett Ave. just north of Burbank Blvd., Ern ;) :cool:

Now I know where you live!!!

Mwhhahahahahah!

:p :samurai: :D

[PaulR]

Well hey to ya PaulR. That we do... though I'll have to say... It doesn't see much of me.

You should take it up. I do most of writing on the golf course.

:eek:

[newmewzikboy]

...
But I’m afraid you bunch a heathens have gone and run him off…agian....



what are you kidding? he always stirs up the pot and then just sits back giggling like a gargoyle and drinking his wine...

[dpc]

dpc,I'll have to admit it's not the first time my intention was misread by about a 180 degrees... and almost always while I was trying to interject a little levity. Neither humor nor the Literary were my first calling... as I'm sure you can see.

No problem at all. Most of what I say is aimed at the younger folks. We all know anyone with a computer can make music on some level with these new tools. I think as with any art or craft one should learn the basic principles or it will show under the least bit of light. So I just try and demonstrate that the folks that have had the greatest success learned them as well. Often this is mistaken as advocating lifeless traditional dogma. But no one thinks that when they're reading the manual of their latest piece of gear. That's all I'm saying: read the manual then go do your own thing.