The Wave of the Future

[davecos]

I've been playing around with the demo of Notion 1.5 for a week now and have decided to order it because I find it to be a really great notation/composition program. Perhaps it's not in the league of Sibelius or Finale regarding its output and myriad of features, but I really do like the fact that if I put a staccato marking above a violin part, I hear the staccato rather than spending time searching for a good staccato patch from one of my many orchestral libraries.

does this mean I'm going to trash EWQLSO, VSL, Miroslav, Project SAM and the rest of my libs? Well, no. I'll keep using them for times when I need ultra realistic mock-ups. But I think I'll be doing the bulk of my composing on Notion because it's technology is so transparent. It doesn't get in the way of working out and developing ideas quickly.

At this point, Notion doesn't have realtime audition nor the ability to compose in a C concert pitch conductor's score or else switch between that and the transposed score. At first I hated that. But the more I played with the program, the more my old music skills came back. So I have to tranpose up a 5th when writing for F horns or a 2nd up for Bb clarinets or trumpets. Heck, I used to do the same thing when I was in composition class with paper and pencil. and even then, I couldn't hit a button and print all of the parts out.

Using Notion made me aware of how out of touch I'd gotten from music theory. Now, I'm not trying to preach to everyone. Notating music is a slower more painstaking process. I understand that modern film composers or guys doing jingles just don't have the luxury of time to fiddle with programs like this. Heck, I'd turn to Sonar or Overture with EWQLSO for a project if I needed to bang out something quickly.

But I do like Notion's streamlined, sensibile interface as far as concert composing is concerned.

Does anyone have this full program? what do they think? I simply love being able to add any coloristic ornament by simply putting the marking above the note. Bloody brilliant! And Notion has expansion packs (pretty reasonably priced) that add sounds and articulations to its sample base. I think they re-recorded some instruments that initial users found less than adequate.

[James W.G. Smith]

Notating music is a slower more painstaking process. I understand that modern film composers or guys doing jingles just don't have the luxury of time to fiddle with programs like this. Heck, I'd turn to Sonar or Overture with EWQLSO for a project if I needed to bang out something quickly.

HAHA! That was too funny! I can write about 5x faster with pen and paper when I don't have to worry about programming and all that (but then again I still do everything by hand, not using a MIDI controller although I have one). I actually wish that I could use a streamlined notation program MADE for film composers that would actually have all the programming done for me...with the exception of minor tweaks and stuff of course. Notion looked like it was going in this direction but I got really bummed when I heard the demos.

I really think that this program integrated with a Piano Roll function and all the bells and whistles that a program like SONAR will give you (composition wise) would be the ideal, but that is, after all idealistic and probably won't happen for a good 20 years (given the fact that as far as I know, there has been NO attempt to improve the notation in SONAR since Cakewalk Pro Audio). Oh well, but since you dig it I'll check it out. Thanks man,

James

[Daryl]

Whilst I like the idea of a program that reads the articulations, I think that Notion is too limited in all it's functions for it to be usable for me. What I would really like is to be able to use a Sibelius "plug-in" within Nuendo, as that would save all that transferring of MIDI files.

However, I do like the idea of a program that can translate articulations into samples, but there would still need to be easy access to controller data (something that Sibelius and Finale both lack) and ability to add keyswitches to override any articulation choosing that was inappropriate.

D

[davecos]

I honestly think that this program is going to be a monster in a couple years. Right now it's fully functional IMO as a composition and sketch pad utility. Sonically it doesn't compare to the bigger libraries but they keep adding new instruments and articulations.

And the program doesn't just switch articulations but also changes according to phrasing, dynamics, etc. Dynamics actually change the timbre of the sample in many cases too.

I'm beginning to write pretty quickly using this program personally speaking. And I really like the fact that I can double stuff in unison or at the octave with the copy paste function.

I do envision samples to be better in a couple generations on this program. As it stands, the existing samples ARE much better than GM sounds from a sound card. You don't get trills, sfz, sul pont. etc. from GM sounds.

[sinkd]

I checked out NOTION at NAMM in Indianapolis last summer. I like the concept, and the interface and program looked very nice. BUT... I am not sure if I would have trouble when I wanted to take waht I'd scored in Notion and then do a mockup in my DAW with my other libs. I use Finale with outputs to Kontakt where I have my templates. That way, I can start doing keyswitch and articulation changes in the score which will translate exactly when I get to DP for final MIDI tweaking and mixing. I also use human playback as a start for volume/controller curves (Change all CC7 to CC 11 in DP for EWSO samples).

I'll be interested to know how things work going from Notion files to DAWs for final mixing. Keep us posted!

DS

[davecos]

you've got it!

[rikp]

I too found the program interesting, but the sounds left me flat (IMHO). But I hope that they continue to develop it more, because the program shows great promise.

Peace

rikp

[davecos]

I too found the program interesting, but the sounds left me flat (IMHO). But I hope that they continue to develop it more, because the program shows great promise.

Peace

rikp

I think it shows definite promise. Would I use it for a finished product at this stage? Nope. I'll still use EWQLSO and VSL but I do think the composition is far better using this program over other notation programs or sequencers. Just my opinion of course.

[Daryl]

I think it shows definite promise. Would I use it for a finished product at this stage? Nope. I'll still use EWQLSO and VSL but I do think the composition is far better using this program over other notation programs or sequencers. Just my opinion of course.
You see this is exactly my problem with Notion. It doesn't do anything as well as my current tools. I think that there will always be a tangible limit to the playback because it needs it's own sounds, and thereby resides the limitation, as the resources required to produce an orchestral sample library are huge and producing a top quality notation program is not cheap either. I've resigned myself to using both sequencer and notation program for the foreseeable future.

Of course if the notational aspects become as good as Sibelius and they come out with some sort of plug-in that would translate all the articulations into my Vienna VI sounds, then I would certainly be interested, but whilst they are producing their own sounds it ain't gonna happen.

D

[drjohnny79]

I think I´ve heard of some guy who made a good sibelius plug for the VSL. But he didnt want to give it to the public.

Am I wrong? I think I read it somewhere on the vsl forum.

/Johnny

[davecos]

You see this is exactly my problem with Notion. It doesn't do anything as well as my current tools. I think that there will always be a tangible limit to the playback because it needs it's own sounds, and thereby resides the limitation, as the resources required to produce an orchestral sample library are huge and producing a top quality notation program is not cheap either. I've resigned myself to using both sequencer and notation program for the foreseeable future.

D

I don't honestly think Notion is ever going to catch up sonically with these bigger libraries because of its general program interface and philosophy. I think that composing on it is primarily its chief aim and the end result would be printing a score out for real musicians to play. It's a better-than-average sketch pad facility IMO. And it does save time insofar as markings, articulations, dynamics and such are concerned because you don't have to load up the appropriate articulation to match what you've put on paper. I do realize that some styles of orchestration don't require as much variation, but just look at a Mahler score or Richard Strauss full score- there are subtleties in orchestration all over the place. For that style of orchestral writing, I believe Notion is a far more efficient interface with which to get those ideas out there.

I don't anyone is disagreeing with the point that Notion cannot match the realism of VSL or EWQLSO. My personal aim with this program is to compose in it, then either a/ print the parts out for a real group to perform or b/ import the music into Overture or Sonar so I can use my VSL/EWQLSO sounds for a realistic mock-up.

Perhaps that's a long way around to do this but my philosophy is "whatever works best for the individual".

I think the only thing the other big 3 can do (Finale, Sibelius and Overture) is to make an alliance with one of the big 3 sound companies (VSL, EW, and Garritan) to come up with an integrated sound library that works along the same lines as Notion, except with superior sound quality. Then again, to load up all those gigabytes of sounds, to be used in any combination at any time, well, now you're talking about computers that would need terrabytes not gigabytes worth of ROM and RAM. Unless the sounds were compressed or lightened up to an extent.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I think the only thing the other big 3 can do (Finale, Sibelius and Overture) is to make an alliance with one of the big 3 sound companies (VSL, EW, and Garritan) to come up with an integrated sound library that works along the same lines as Notion, except with superior sound quality. Then again, to load up all those gigabytes of sounds, to be used in any combination at any time, well, now you're talking about computers that would need terrabytes not gigabytes worth of ROM and RAM. Unless the sounds were compressed or lightened up to an extent.

What I dislike (very much) about this trend is that the focus is being pulled away from advancing the listenable result of music technology, and being re-focused upon more and more scratchpad tools...that do not produce listenable music.

Edit: Massive text cut....too cynical.

[thesoundsmith]

Edit: Massive text cut....too cynical.Another one? Come on, George - oh, text cut... Sorry, Bruce, I got carried away... :D

I still have the "please, mother, I'd rather do it myself" attitude anyway, but if i can put an articulation on a note and have the result be a midi file written the way a competent musician would play it with no additional emo, that saves me a lot of work. If it will only play via the built-in prchestra, it becomesof limited use.

But I should think they could strike some sort of deal with some quality orchestra lib developer to produce a customized version for Notion

[Hardy Heern]

What I dislike (very much) about this trend is that the focus is being pulled away from advancing the listenable result of music technology, and being re-focused upon more and more scratchpad tools...that do not produce listenable music.

Edit: Massive text cut....too cynical.

I'm (very) surprised to hear you say this Bruce!! Often it is you who is saying don't bother trying to emulate a saxophonist or WHY...just get a real one to do it! (which I find highly irritating...bearing in mind that this is a forum for those interested in sampling). What you are now saying seems totally, horizontally opposed to what you were saying previously! Maybe you cut some essential part out of your text when you did the huge edit!!:)

You also get developers (you know who you are!), who are in a cleft stick, because on one hand they are saying that they are not trying to replace ' traditional instrument' musicians and that their product should only be used as a sketch pad/ mockup tool. Unfortunately this would mean that all the development could stop right now as the sketch pads in the form of GPO, Silver, Gold, Emerald etc are already more than adequate for mocking up.

They tell a lie because these same people are all developing products which are getting ever closer to being indistiguishable from being the real thing (with less effort) and also are able to get more accurate results from a piece of notation....if that's the way you like to compose.

For goodness sake let's be honest. If the goal wasn't to produce ever more accurate and easy to use products they might as well pack it in now. The truth is that although the aim might not be to affect the traditional instrument musician the end result will be the same.....they will be affected.

So what? There will always be folk who'll love to maintain the old crafts like those who weave, for example, although there are huge looms doing it a million times faster and, some might say, better.

Frank

[davecos]

What I dislike (very much) about this trend is that the focus is being pulled away from advancing the listenable result of music technology, and being re-focused upon more and more scratchpad tools...that do not produce listenable music.

Edit: Massive text cut....too cynical.

I'm not sure this is a really significant trend actually. As far as I know, Notion is the only program that is endorsing this method of composing with technology and their main aim is for the user to have their piece played by real musicians so there's less of an emphasis on ultra realism. I know they would like to believe their sounds as stunningly realistic and some are pretty good but they cannot compare to 35 gigabyte libraries- it's just a matter of reality.

Bruce, I know most of us on this board mostly deal in the realm of MIDI orchestrations but I don't begrudge a company that wants to endorse composing using more traditional methods. For students, this is an excellent program because its current version demands that the composer know pitch relations and instruments transpositions before using it. It certainly has sharpened my skills since I've used it.

TO be honest, I feel that sequencers and ultra realistic libraries have (for me) aided in the atrophication of my fundamental music skills. Perhaps I'm just not fully realizing their potential or whatever, but the methodology that's endemic with sequencers doesn't necessarily foster great counterpoint, motivic or thematic immitation, advanced harmony or clever orchestration. And we all know that what sounds good on VSL or EWQLSO will not necessarily sound good played by a real orchestra- and that's fine for most of us because we won't have real musicians playing our music.

But I really don't think this "trend" that you're witnessing is a prolific as you think it is. :)

-Dave

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Frank, if you think I am contradicting myself, you don't understand my position.

Taking one example, I HAVE saxophone libraries. I USE saxophone libraries.

The difference is in how one uses these things, and in NOT using them in places where they are pre-destined to fail.

You would be very surprised at the number of clients I have who want emulative work from me. I even take a few of those jobs, but only when we can do something interesting. I am currently mocking up a friend's marching band catalog, for instance. That sound excruciating, I know, but it is actually more interesting than many scoring projects I've taken. We are creating an environmental emulation that includes stadium resonances, crowd sounds, occlusion, and simulated field motion and show design, and communicating all of those factors aurally. So, that project actually has a chance of succeeding. No single thread must sustain the suspension of disbelief...and we don't even want to do so. We are being very transparent about what we are doing, and how we're doing it. What we are trying to "sell" is not only the musical arrangement itself, but an idea of how to use it on the marching field. So, the project becomes interesting and has an underlying purpose which can be uniquely attained via the medium of sampling.

This is not the case in any of the equally horrid saxophone solo emulations we've heard. I say equally horrid, because no matter how close it comes, it is simply a poor artistic choice to substitute a sample for a jazz solo. You can't make a case for it. It is cheaper, better, faster, and more satisfying on every level to use a player. Jazz solos are about what a person does in real time. That is the art of it, not the line, not the sound, none of that. Jazz is real time. If it is not real time, it is not jazz. It might be jazzy sounding. But it is not jazz unless there is risk.

It's like insisting that you can make a perfect martini out of 7-up, if you just keep trying hard enough.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I will definitely give props to the percussion demo from Notion some time back. It sounded great.

[Hardy Heern]

Frank, if you think I am contradicting myself, you don't understand my position.

Taking one example, I HAVE saxophone libraries. I USE saxophone libraries.

The difference is in how one uses these things, and in NOT using them in places where they are pre-destined to fail.

I do understand where you're coming from.....most of the time. Obviously, we move in different worlds and I'm more likely to get the 7up to work than to know a saxophonist.:) I still think that, even current, sax samples are good enough for a mock up.

You would be very surprised at the number of clients I have who want emulative work from me. I even take a few of those jobs, but only when we can do something interesting. I am currently mocking up a friend's marching band catalog, for instance. That sound excruciating, I know, but it is actually more interesting than many scoring projects I've taken. We are creating an environmental emulation that includes stadium resonances, crowd sounds, occlusion, and simulated field motion and show design, and communicating all of those factors aurally. So, that project actually has a chance of succeeding. No single thread must sustain the suspension of disbelief...and we don't even want to do so. We are being very transparent about what we are doing, and how we're doing it. What we are trying to "sell" is not only the musical arrangement itself, but an idea of how to use it on the marching field. So, the project becomes interesting and has an underlying purpose which can be uniquely attained via the medium of sampling.

Now THAT'S an interesting project!

This is not the case in any of the equally horrid saxophone solo emulations we've heard. I say equally horrid, because no matter how close it comes, it is simply a poor artistic choice to substitute a sample for a jazz solo. You can't make a case for it. It is cheaper, better, faster, and more satisfying on every level to use a player. Jazz solos are about what a person does in real time. That is the art of it, not the line, not the sound, none of that. Jazz is real time. If it is not real time, it is not jazz. It might be jazzy sounding. But it is not jazz unless there is risk.

Luckily the good jazz (traditional) doesn't use saxes to the same degree!:eek:

It's like insisting that you can make a perfect martini out of 7-up, if you just keep trying hard enough.

Bruce, Is this something you've heard? If it's true I'm willing to give it a try....even if it takes me all night! I'd better do it on a Friday night though.....just in case it works!:)

[dewdman42]

I messed around with the demo a little bit. Its not there yet. yes, it is ultra simple to use. The sounds are "OK". there are so many things I don't like I won't list them all. Its going to need a lot more work before I can buy it.