will you ever be satisfied?

[wlahc1]

Hi all, just wondering will there every be a point where you will say, ok this piano lib, is all i will ever need, its as real as i think it ever needs to be, same with strings or anyother sample?

[Pingu]

You clearly don't hang out here a lot.

[Journeyman]

Many here will disagree (particularly those into classical music), but Ivory is as good as it need be for me; short of a real acoustic piano.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I am always satisfied.

I think the search for holy grails is artistically and spiritually destructive. What really counts is how inventive one is with whatever materials are at hand.

[Fred Story]

Well said, Bruce. My sentiments exactly.

[Nickie Fønshauge]

Many here will disagree (particularly those into classical music), but Ivory is as good as it need be for me; short of a real acoustic piano.
Why is that? I am a little curious, since I consider bying Ivory for classical music.

[drjohnny79]

Bruce: Then would you like to inform us how many $ it took for you to be satisfied? ;) Or when you bought your last holy grail? Yesterday?

:D

But you´re right of course. It´s sad, but I actully produced more music with my akai, than I do with K2.

You can achieve alot with what you already have.

/Johnny

[Marcussen]

Never satisfied... Some things have me close to satisfied though. Also - I guess it depends on price. For instance if VSL did a choir i'm sure it would rock. But I'm also pretty sure it would be too expessive* to justify its purchase since I only use choirs for maybe 10% of my tracks. Thus I would be satified with EWQLSC...

* Based on the assumption that they do a Choral Cube the same size as their orchestra.

[Journeyman]

Why is that? I am a little curious, since I consider bying Ivory for classical music.
Nickie,

In this forum it's been my observation that those into classical piano state that Ivory isn't ambient enough or warm enough, and tend to complain about Ivory not having sympathetic string resonance or repedalling. Bear in mind that opinions are subjective, and only yours is the one that should matter to you. If you use the search link and search for both Ivory and Resonance, you can read the comments for yourself.

In the productions I play on (Pop, Rock and Jazz), these complaints don't really matter much. I find Ivory extremely satisfying to play. I also think that it's Steinway and Bosendorfer are beautiful in addition to the Yamaha. I also find that the upper octaves in the Steinberg's Akoustik are rather brittle compared to Ivory. Additionally, an upgrade will soon be released that adds a Fazioli to the collection.

My suggestion: Check out everything available and go with what inspires you. I've been burned many times by not trusting my own instincts.

Hope this helps.

[dpasdernick]

I am always satisfied.

I think the search for holy grails is artistically and spiritually destructive. What really counts is how inventive one is with whatever materials are at hand.

Right on the money Bruce. I spend more time looking for the "inspirational preset" than actually writing. Need to break that habit

My latest Holy Grail:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=808&ParentId=60

Nothing better than coming home from a bad day at work and pretending the snare is your boss' ego filled melon... (but I digress...) ;)

Darren

[James W.G. Smith]

Hi all, just wondering will there every be a point where you will say, ok this piano lib, is all i will ever need, its as real as i think it ever needs to be, same with strings or anyother sample?

Sure, I will be happy...when I record my own samples. The problem here is that you are never getting exactly what you want (in terms of recording, articulations, section sizes, how the instruments are played, ect.) just settling for the one that is the closest. Because all of these things are very subjective, there just won't be an end all sample library for you, unless you make it yourself. We usually get more and more of them because they have new things that we didn't have before, so it expands out resources when writing. For example, I love my close Stienway B sample lib, but what if I want a more ambient sound? Or what if I want a different model of piano? What if I want the musician to strike the piano strings with hammers (see, I don't think anyone would make a lib of THAT)?

So don't worry so much about finding the best lib, it's just not out there. Just have fun doing what you do, and if a new sample lib comes out and you think it sounds awesome and could use it quite a bit, then grab it and make the most out of it. Just don't throw money away on a bunch of crap that you don't need (as I have done at this point).

James

[Nickie Fønshauge]

Journeyman,

Thank you for your point of view. I will try your search suggestions and look for more information about Ivory, as this is one of the best sounding piano libraries I have heard so far.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Bruce: Then would you like to inform us how many $ it took for you to be satisfied? ;) Or when you bought your last holy grail? Yesterday?

The last thing that I really felt was hugely empowering was a Zendrum controller (www.zendrum.com (http://www.zendrum.com)).

It is one of the conceptually simplest, yet powerful controllers I have ever put my hands on. The sensitivity and dynamic translation of the pads is first rate, and their layout enables the "zen" of the Zendrum, which is to have a sufficient number of pads, intelligently placed, that allows a person to strike them in combination to fully cover what a drummer does with hands and feet combined.

I'm certainly not saying that greater potential in the tools doesn't lead to greater potential for a person's creations. I'm just saying that being DIS-satisfied with the tools at hand is a very risky place for an artist to be. After all, does the sculptor curse the granite or the clay? Does a painter curse the paint? Ultimately, we are not artists without being able to transform the mundane to the sublime.

I am always thrilled to laughter when I hear someone take what might be considered a cheesy, horrible sound, and transform it by their artistry into something audacious and inspiring. How many amazing things have been done with an 808, which at the time it was fresh, was a drum machine that I cursed for being so damned artificial, and in my young, dissatisfied mind, useless. Years later, I realize that it was only my blindness to potential that stood in my way. A cheesy sound is merely an invitation to defy expectations.

As far as $$$ is concerned, today's best technology is dirt cheap in comparison to the analog gear I started with in the 70's and 80's. Or the $21,000 worth of ADATs and associated gear that did nothing except record 32 tracks of mostly linear material (yes, they were a LITTLE non-linear, but by the time you got the shuffling done, most times you found yourself wishing you'd just punched in and recorded the damned part again...).

So, I guess I am too old and crusty to really get into the idea that today's technology is anything but 100% enabling. There are no excuses left. If you can't scratch out a good living on a standard DAW package straight out of the box....well, don't give up that day job.

[sirbellog]

I am always satisfied.

I think the search for holy grails is artistically and spiritually destructive. What really counts is how inventive one is with whatever materials are at hand.

Does it include sampled sax ??
--
Sorry, could'nt help ! (No need to answer)

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Does it include sampled sax ??
--
Sorry, could'nt help ! (No need to answer)

No, that's OK.

I am not dissatisfied with sampled saxophone libraries. I use a couple of great ones. I am frustrated with the idea that some threshold of sonic "reality" is a holy grail, when the underlying artistic process of the genre is not present. If the underlying artistic process IS present, then the banging of one's tallywhacker against a cardboard box is timbre enough to create an artistic statement. Lacking the process, a terabyte of terabytes of behavioral coverage will not result in a musical outcome.

That is the point I feel gets blurred, and along with it, the expectations of younger musicians who are not more fully capable of understanding how to gain jazz proficiency. You become a proficient jazzer when you know what it's like to make love in the sense that the universe collapses around you, and you understand the sounds and the coaxing and the teasing and all of that, and you become aware that jazz is the musical expression of that slice of life. When you understand that, you "get" jazz. And upon doing so, you tend to fall off the deep end...haha. All the praticing, and running patterns, and learning modes, and reading George Russell for the fiftieth time and still not understanding why Ornette's rocket flies and your steamboat ain't even floating....

[jeffn1]

I am very happy with the state of technology. At relatively accessible cost, I have the tools to do pretty much what I want. Unfortunately, it is difficult to get the time and (perhaps more importantly) energy up to create (and learn the tools better) with my (paying) work and kids. On the other hand, if that causes me to stretch out the time to finish a piece, I don't hear anyone complaining (and slowly, but surely, I do complete each piece).

jeffn1

[Aaron Dirk]

I really shouldn't mention this.... but you guys will never be satisfied.
You see, we've been secretly adding addictive additives since the 50's.
It's pointless in trying to quit, as there isn't a scientific method to calm your addiction, and with the help of the federal government, there never will.:p:D

So give into your urges and light up.... you know you want more:|:

[Journeyman]

Rotflmao!!;)

[kitekrazy]

I think it's real easy to lose track of who the audience is. Most people couldn't tell the difference between a gm piano over a sampled piano.
I can't ever imagine someone sitting through a movie wonderiing if the music was performed live or sampled. Or of it was sampled, they would say there could've been a better sample library used.
The average audience isn't full of people who hang out NSS looking for better libraries.

[navidson]

I will be satisfied when I can play every instrument and won't ever need to use sample libraries again.

Or when I can afford to hire session musicians. Whichever comes first ;)

[amb]

I think it's real easy to lose track of who the audience is. Most people couldn't tell the difference between a gm piano over a sampled piano.
I can't ever imagine someone sitting through a movie wonderiing if the music was performed live or sampled. Or of it was sampled, they would say there could've been a better sample library used.
The average audience isn't full of people who hang out NSS looking for better libraries.

Well said !












:samurai:

[davecos]

I'm pretty happy with Gold Pro XP with the occasional addition of my VSL Kontakt 2 samples. I like Sonar 5 although lately I've been composing mostly using Notion or else Overture (to use my EWQLSO samples in). For jazz I've got J&BB which rocks and for synths I've got Atmosphere and Arturia CS80v (plus Korg's Digital Legacy Collection).

Since I'm pretty much broke, I'll have to live with these for a while until I can make some of the money back using them. But I think I'm pretty well off. Notion was my last purchase and while it's sonically not the be-all end-all, it is when it comes to composition interfaces for me.

If I had scads of money though, I'd buy EWQLSC, Colossus, VSL V.I., etc. etc. bla bla bla. So I guess "no" would be the final answer....darnit. :p

[kitekrazy]

I think a lot of people who use this technology have mistakenly convinced themselves of this. Believe me, people can tell.

It's one thing if you're talking about underscore buried under dialogue and a ton of efx. Also, there's a lot of music that has been expressly conceived and executed using sampled sounds. That's cool.

You're not, however, going to see people lined up to buy CDs of classic string quarted music played on a sampler. You're not going to see people buying CDs of virtuoso piano music played on Ivory. I've seen a lot of CDs of otherwise organic music panned by critics because samples were used.

Lee Blaske

I see it quite differently. You named a small group that prefer classical type music. Most of today's popular music (like rap) is put together with nothing but samples.

[CallMeZoot]

I agree with Bruce in that it's dangerous to always be saying "if only I had this library I would be writing so much more music." I've fallen into that trap myself and it's a neverending one, because there will always be new and better libraries out there. So it's best to take what you have and work with it, get to know it, really use it, and to never blame your libraries for your lack of talent or motivation (for that matter, never give your libraries credit for the talent you do have).

That said, I still drool when a new library comes out and I usually end up buying the really useful ones within my budget (or a little bit over it--cursed group buys). I have a lot of great libraries but I never quite feel it is enough.

The only time I WAS truly satisfied was when I was ignorant. When I went off to college to study composition I picked up a Roland JV1080 and the two orchestral cards and man I was SET. This was after spending high school mousing notes into Encore through my Soundblaster 16! That JV1080 lasted me a long time, until I finally sold it to buy an expensive software library. Funny thing is, I missed it so much I ended up buying a JV1010 which I keep on hand for when I need it.

If it weren't for internet forums and EM Magazine, I'd still be as happy as a clam, sitting and playing with my Roland, thinking it was the best thing on earth.

Sigh.

chris.

[kitekrazy]

I agree with Bruce in that it's dangerous to always be saying "if only I had this library I would be writing so much more music." I've fallen into that trap myself and it's a neverending one, because there will always be new and better libraries out there. So it's best to take what you have and work with it, get to know it, really use it, and to never blame your libraries for your lack of talent or motivation (for that matter, never give your libraries credit for the talent you do have).


An Amen to that. Theres people out there reating a lot of music even with freeware. It's not orchestra,l but still the amount of production that people are creating with few apps puts me to shame.
I'd do well as a purchasing agent.

[Nickie Fønshauge]

I really shouldn't mention this.... but you guys will never be satisfied.
You see, we've been secretly adding addictive additives since the 50's.
It's pointless in trying to quit, as there isn't a scientific method to calm your addiction, and with the help of the federal government, there never will.:p:D

So give into your urges and light up.... you know you want more:|:

Prepare for a massive lawsuit:samurai: :n: :p

[PaulR]

sitting and playing with my Roland, thinking it was the best thing on earth.
Sigh.
chris.

:D :D

Sorry - that just struck me as funny.

Carry on.

[Aaron Dirk]

Prepare for a massive lawsuit:samurai: :n: :p


How about we settle this to where we make trendy TV commercials on how uncool it is to be a sample user and it was all a conspiracy on our part, but subliminally you'll end up buying more pianos:p :D

[jeffn1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeZoot
sitting and playing with my Roland, thinking it was the best thing on earth.
Sigh.
chris.


:D :D

Sorry - that just struck me as funny.

Carry on.

Personally, I prefer to call mine "Korg".

jeffn1

[Justus]

What about "Minimoog" ? :D

[drjohnny79]

I think alot of people in this thread has misunderstood the meaning of "will you ever be satisfied?"

Haha!

[Justus]

I didn't have the heart to say it...

Hm hm... Back to samples?

[Paul Blankenau]

I only use samples for live playing, because that's all I have. Good music can be made with these tools, but I still remember playing a Steinway concert grand for a few minutes when I was 12 or so. If someone gave me one that good, though sized for my living room, I'd be happy, but it would be a fair expense to move it here, protect it from the huge temperature and humidity swings, and tune it periodically. It is unlikely that anyone will give me such a piano. So when I can buy a sample set and controller and monitors about as good as the real thing, and cheap, I'll be satisfied. Until that day, I'm honestly confused as to the wisdom of upgrading from a 600 MHz P3 and GS2.5 versus getting a real piano. There are some cheap pianos that I love despite their flaws; others leave me cold. If I spent more time looking at pianos than playing, I couldn't justify the effort.

[dabbler]

Bruce: Then would you like to inform us how many $ it took for you to be satisfied? ;) Or when you bought your last holy grail? Yesterday?

:D

But you´re right of course. It´s sad, but I actully produced more music with my akai, than I do with K2.

You can achieve alot with what you already have.

/Johnny


...and in the opposite direction -

A few months ago, I replaced all my hardware with a single new computer. I've upgraded Cubase from 5.2 to SX3, I've replaced all my hardware synths/romplers with Kontakt, freeware VSTi's and Virtual Guitarist 2. I've written more music since, than I have in the previous 10 years. It is a much more integrated system and switching from one project to another is a breeze for the first time ever for me.

I do however agree to an extent that working with what you've got yields better results than constantly updating to the newest thing on the market... or indeed the newest version.

R.

[Nickie Fønshauge]

How about we settle this to where we make trendy TV commercials on how uncool it is to be a sample user and it was all a conspiracy on our part, but subliminally you'll end up buying more pianos:p :D
How about you reimburse me for all my suffering, and I'll buy more pianos :p :D

Aah, what the haystack. I'll buy more pianos anyway :o

[wja]

I think in a few years we'll all look back and wonder how we got along with such inferior tools 'back then', and a few years after that the same thing.

Satisfied? How can one ever be satisfied? Our desire for more and better(and cheaper) is what drives the market and fuels the competition to keep up with our demands.

[Aaron Dirk]

Aah, what the haystack. I'll buy more pianos anyway :o

hahaha.... Me too!:o

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I think in a few years we'll all look back and wonder how we got along with such inferior tools 'back then', and a few years after that the same thing.

It is almost always the opposite when I "look back."

I hear what I did with a Prophet V, an OBX, some Yamaha FM modules, and I realize that creativity doesn't care. In fact, I sometimes get a little sad when I remember the elation at coaxing some uber-cool sound out of a "tortured" setting...one that forced the gear into an unstable (therefore very exciting) condition.

Now, of course, there are few tortured settings. Things behave as designed. There is a preset for every sound known to man.

Sometimes, it is worth considering what we lose when we have too many choices.

[alanb]

I hear what I did with a Prophet V, an OBX, some Yamaha FM modules, and I realize that creativity doesn't care. In fact, I sometimes get a little sad when I remember the elation at coaxing some uber-cool sound out of a "tortured" setting...one that forced the gear into an unstable (therefore very exciting) condition.

Now, of course, there are few tortured settings. Things behave as designed. There is a preset for every sound known to man.
That's precisely why the Sherman Filterbank is such a frustratingly wonderful tool... that is, for folks who don't mind a little -- or a lot of -- grit in their sounds. It brings back the adventure and danger of the old analogue synth days, where random (or even controlled) knob-twiddling could result in once-in-a-lifetime, wild, unpredictable, or sometimes even "perfect" sounds that you run the risk of never being able to recreate.....

[Bruce A. Richardson]

For me, in retrospect, the time I spent in college, in front of that pair of Buchla 200's and accompanying wall of analog decks, was as exhilerating as anything I've experienced in my life. Waiting for my turn to come up on the studio schedule, the smell of tape and abused shag carpet...

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Reaktor, too. For me, Reaktor has been the modern application that most brings back that thrill. I often bemoan the fact that I don't have more time to spend creating instruments in it, but I am very happy that so many talented people have so generously done so.

[alanb]

For me, in retrospect, the time I spent in college, in front of that pair of Buchla 200's and accompanying wall of analog decks, was as exhilerating as anything I've experienced in my life. Waiting for my turn to come up on the studio schedule, the smell of tape and abused shag carpet...

Ahh, school days... you know, you really never forget the first time you see somebody shake a 2600 hard enough to jangle the spring in the internal reverb unit. What a frightening and delicious sound...

[wja]

Sometimes, it is worth considering what we lose when we have too many choices.
Quite the contrary as I think we will have fewer choices. Just how many orchestral libs or sequencers will survive in the coming years? The Microsoft's and Dell's of the industry will stomp out the little guy. Standardization and interoperability of software and hardware will improve dramatically, as well as simplicity and ease of use.

I certainly don't long for the good ol' days where I had to tweak things for hours on end to get what I wanted.

"Dammit Jim, I'm a composer not a programmer." :D