Overlays

[Ron St. Germain]

I see in the French Horns that there are three separate overlays- overlay f, overlay f ag, and overlay ff. Could someone explain to me how overlays are used and the meaning of the letters after the word overlay (f, f ag, ff) Perhaps forte, double forte?). Thank you very much.:)

[Coriolano]

Well, the meaning of the terms is obvious: f -> "forte" overlay, ff-> "fortissimo" overlay and f ag -> "forte" aggresive overlay. The idea is that when french horns (and other instruments) change their volume they change also their "colour". For example, a french horn playing piano would sound "sweet" but playing fortissimo its sound would be more "metallic".
If I'm right, overlays are intended to use in combination with normal samples when you want to achieve those "metallic" sounds. So you'll probably need 2 french horns (normal and overlay) per voice.
Anyway I'm not an expert at all, but there are many on this forum. I'm sure they can give you a better explanation.

Greetings

[jmc]

Well, Coriolano pretty much nailed it. When I'm recording horns I have a regular player and an f ag, and ff overlay for each player. You just have to be careful to avoid phase cancellation. Hopefully GPO-A will have enough overlays to cover all the horn players.

[DPDAN]

4 GPO horns

horns without OV (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/horns%20no%20OV.MP3)

horns with OV (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/horns%20with%20OV.MP3)

horns with FF OV (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/horns%20with%20FF%20OV.mp3)

dpDan

[Skysaw]

The only problem with the overlays is that if you use the random intonation function of the horns it will be potentially out of tune with the overlay. Still, they are very useful.

What I tend to do is to have a seperate solo instrument for each of the four horns, then one additional polyphonic track with the forte overlay. I only use this track for parts where I need a nice brassy sound, for example, a sustained forte chord for full brass. I tend to mix the overlay back to about half the volume of the horns themselves, and match the average cc#1 value throughout the sustains. It tends to work pretty well, and is not too difficult to implement.

[CallMeZoot]

Well, Coriolano pretty much nailed it. When I'm recording horns I have a regular player and an f ag, and ff overlay for each player. You just have to be careful to avoid phase cancellation. Hopefully GPO-A will have enough overlays to cover all the horn players.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the overlays and I hope that they are not included in GPOA. I would prefer for the tone to get "brassy" as a result of velocity and/or mod controls, or perhaps even a keyswitch. The overlay idea, while innovative, is kind of clumsy, at least for my workflow. It also makes it difficult to improvise horn lines, which is an important part of my process. In general I don't like to have multiple tracks per instrument--I like my sequencer tracks to match up with my score staves as closely as possible. It seems that sampling in general is moving more towards intelligent performance tools, where you can do more and more in realtime--I get the impression GPOA is going to use some innovative ideas in this regard, and I hope that this will result in something better than overlays.

I suppose another idea for the overlays is to put them in a separate layer, controllable by CC, kind of like JABB's airflow noises and keyclicks. This would be better than the multiple-track approach, but I would still prefer velocity and/or modwheel control.

just my 2 cents.

chris.

[Skysaw]

I suppose another idea for the overlays is to put them in a separate layer, controllable by CC, kind of like JABB's airflow noises and keyclicks.
This would definitely be my preference as well. I wouldn't like to do away with at least some measure of control for brassiness, though. As a horn player, I can tell you that it is controllable in real life more or less independantly of dynamic level.

[joaz]

As a horn player, I can tell you that it is controllable in real life more or less independantly of dynamic level.

This sounds interesting. !!

Is it possible to produce that brassy ( cuivre) sound at mp or mf levels. ??

regards Joe

[Skysaw]

Is it possible to produce that brassy ( cuivre) sound at mp or mf levels. ??
This is where the "more or less" part comes in. :)

I think if I tried, I could get a somewhat brassy sound almost down to mp, certainly at mf. At forte and above, it is much more natural and easy to do, of course. There is also the technique of playing "bells high," as is heard in the finale of Mahler's 1st symphony. The players turn slightly to the left, lift the bells off of their knees and into the air. The sound produced is definitely more brassy in this case, since the normal position causes most of the high frequency content to disappear into the players' clothing and the back of the stage.

[joaz]

[quote=Skysaw]This is where the "more or less" part comes in. :)

I think if I tried, I could get a somewhat brassy sound almost down to mp, certainly at mf.

There is also the technique of playing "bells high," as is heard in the finale of Mahler's 1st symphony. quote]

Thanks for the info Jamie. Quite fascinating. I can only imagine that this is down to some kind of embouchure thing. What do you do different to produce the "cuivre" effect from the normal sound. ??


I remember the first time I saw this "bells in the air routine." (yep...it was Mahler). It has a wonderfully gutsy almost barbaric sound. Thrilling. !!

regards Joe

[Skysaw]

I can only imagine that this is down to some kind of embouchure thing. What do you do different to produce the "cuivre" effect from the normal sound. ??
Embouchure, tongue placement, shape of the mouth cavity, and bell-hand placement all play a role. I don't think there is any standard teaching on this, but I'm willing to bet most good horn players do this instinctively.

I believe in Paul Dukas' Sorcerer's Apprentice there is a horn part where it is instructed you play with the bell hand "half-stopped." It produces a veiled sound and must have the pitch compensated for, as it will go flat.

What's interesting is that as the hand closes in, the pitch goes flat and the tone softens, but if you completely stop the bell with the hand, the stopped note comes out a half step above the fingered note, and the tone becomes very tinny and bright.

The horn is a very unusual instrument!

[Skysaw]

I should also clarify something I just remembered...

As far as I know, Mahler didn't really indicate the finale be played "bells high," but it became almost a tradition to be performed this way, and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a printed edition out there with that marking.

When I played with the DC Youth Orchestra many, many years ago, I remember playing this piece. The conductor never asked for anything regarding this, but the horn section had a long debate about whether to perform it this way. I was really pushing for it since it seemed like fun, but the others chickened out. :(

[joaz]

First time I saw it (bells in the air), it was Mahler 3, which starts with 8 horns in unison, blasting out the theme.
It has such a visceral sound, a world away from all those 19th century interlocking soft horn pads.

regards joe

[jmc]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the overlays and I hope that they are not included in GPOA. I would prefer for the tone to get "brassy" as a result of velocity and/or mod controls, or perhaps even a keyswitch.
Well, yeah. That's really what I'd like too, for ALL the brass.

The overlay idea, while innovative, is kind of clumsy, at least for my workflow. It also makes it difficult to improvise horn lines, which is an important part of my process.
AGREED!!! I have to reprogram each part three times for each overlay, and it is time consuming.

I get the impression GPOA is going to use some innovative ideas in this regard, and I hope that this will result in something better than overlays.
Tom is an amazing guy, and I have no doubt he's already addressed this issue. Particularly if they are implenting elements of other libraries, I'm sure they are doing something to even out the functionality of all the brass instruments. Add innovation to that, and I'm pretty sure we're going to need extra socks when GPO-A comes out.

I suppose another idea for the overlays is to put them in a separate layer, controllable by CC, kind of like JABB's airflow noises and keyclicks. This would be better than the multiple-track approach, but I would still prefer velocity and/or modwheel control.
OOOH! That's an even better idea! I would prefer to have the horns all "hooked" together, but only so long as ALL the horns are in the same way. Granted if I afford a second machine and Kontakt 2, I could probably make my own patch that did exactly that.

It's like trying to build an orchestra with solo strings, wanting to implement the keyswitch functions to take advantage of up-down bowing, pizzes, trem and trills, and having only three players that can do it. I like the way JABB gives you three flutes, five trumpets, etc... each with the same functionality. I hope I get nine (or more... I'll totally take more) solo violins, each with the same funtionality and articulations. Oh well, here's hopin'.