R-K Update & Discussion: Orchestral Brass

[snorlax]

Greetings, R-Kers!

Here is the place to discuss anything in the Rimsky-Korsakov Brass lesson.

As you might surmise, much has changed in the brass world since R-K's time.

We can discuss those changes here--Gary will soon be posting some "points to ponder" I assembled about post-RK brass playing, mostly concerning:
================================================== ====
*Improvements/changes in instrument design and their consequences for composers/orchestrators.

*Improvement in performer skills, especially on trombone & tuba, and consequences for composers/orchestrators.

*How to write good parts (good form, that is--I'll leave most of the content issues to you:) ) for the various brass.
================================================== ======

Just who am I?? I have played tuba and tenor tuba (euphonium) in orchestras either side of I-65 since the Crimean War--done most all of the big euphonium stuff numerous times. I also calculate that I have counted 156 days' (3744 hours) worth of rests and tacets. During that time I was able to learn much by observing and querying my brass colleagues about performance skills. I also do a fair amount of music typesetting with Finale.

These days, I am a euphonium soloist, clinician, and teacher around Indianapolis and perform with several wind and brass ensembles. Next weekend, I'll be a featured performer at the Great American Brass Band Festival in Lexington, KY...the third time I've been featured there.

My musical icon and mentor is Harvey Phillips, Distinguished Professor Emeritus at the Indiana University School of Music. It has been my good fortune to hang on his coattails for a number of years.

I am also here to answer any questions you may have about brass instruments and how to write for them. If I do not know the answer to your question myself, I will consult with one of my colleagues and report back to you. For topics on which there is some "lack of consistency," I will also get a "second opinion" for you.

I have learned much on these GPO forums, and I have yet much to learn from you. I mentioned this RK project to several of my orchestral brass friends and they are pleased that composers are learning about brass specifically, and about the orchestra in general.

So...in the GPO spirit, let's learn from one another!
Jim

[snorlax]

Here's a copy of what I sent to Gary...

Gary,

After looking at the initial R-K comments on brass, I'd say we need the
following updates: I am assuming that we are writing for at least a
semi-professional or college orchestra. Do with these as you please.

1. The standard trumpets in the more modern orchestra are in Bb or C. D and
Eb trumpets are sometimes found in full orchestra, but are more likely to be
heard in Bach and Haydn. The Haydn trumpet concerto was written for an Eb trumpet.

2. When writing for trumpet, do not dictate which instrument to use unless
you have intimate acquaintance with the instrument. Write the part at pitch
(in C) and trust the performer to choose the proper instrument based on the
character of the piece and the part. Professional Trumpet players can
transpose at sight with ease into and out of most keys unless the piece is a
12-tone extravaganza with running 32nd notes.

3. Brass players need to BREATHE and need rest, especially after passages in
an extreme upper register.

4. The low F trumpet that R-K describes is not used in a modern orchestra.
The true bass trumpet is in Bb, plays in the trombone range, uses a trombone
mouthpiece and is almost always played by a trombone player. It is uncommon in general practice except in "big blow" brass pieces such as Janacek's Sinfonietta and the Pines of Rome.

5. "Wagner Tuben" are not tubas; they are oval-upright members of the horn
family, pitched in Bb or F (as the modern double horn is in Bb and F),
played with the left hand, with a horn mouthpiece, by a horn player. Again,
these are heard only in "big blow" pieces such as the Rite of Spring.

6. A CIMBASSO is a 4- or 5-valved bass trombone in F (as the F tuba) or CC (less common). Its main use is as the brass bass in Verdi operas and similar works. It's also heard on some films. It is played by a bass trombonist or tubist.

7. Cornets are rarely--if ever--used in orchestra. For that matter, their
use in wind ensembles has diminished greatly.

8. WARNING!! Brass instruments, especially the trombones and tubas, are MUCH LARGER (bigger bored) than they were in R-K's day and are capable of
incredible volume and force. Many veteran orchestral musicians lament this
when the power is abused. The largest trombone or tuba of RK's day would be a peashooter today.

9. Trombones and tubas are much better constructed today than they were in RK's day. Most professional-quality tubas today have 5 valves, most tenor
trombones have a trigger, and many bass trombones have two triggers. All
that translates into much more flexibility than was available in RK's day.

10. The modern bass trombone is one of the two most acoustically pungent
instruments in the orchestra. Write with care.

11. While tubas are much bigger than they were in the past, the good news is that the level of orchestral tuba playing today is at a virtuoso level
unimaginable in R-K's day. Do not fear to give the tuba passages requiring
agility, and do not fear assigning the tuba melodic material where the music
dictates.

12. Tubas and horns are conical, which gives them their characteristic
mellow tone. Trumpets and trombones are cylinders, which is why they can be more piercing or edgy.

13. The standard tubas in American orchestras are in CC and F. Some German orchestras still insist on a BBb tuba instead of the CC, but that is less
common now than it had been. When writing for tuba, do not indicate which
instrument is to be used. Simply write the part at pitch in bass clef and
trust the performer to choose the right instrument based on the character of
the piece and the part.

14. The statement "It is not given to the to the small trumpet (Eb-D) and
tuba to play with any great amount of expression" is 100% false today, as is
the statement that trombonists and tubists cannot do multiple or quick
tonguing. Having said that, lower passages on all brass are less agile than
mid-register passages.

15. Generally speaking, wide-interval skips, especially at fast tempos, are
harder on brass than they are on winds or strings.

16. The convention of horns I and III being "high horns" and horns II and IV
being "low horns" is still in widespread use in orchestral playing.

16: PART WRITING: (Note--there is not 100% universal accord on some of
these--my advice is based on copying I do for professional clients)

*For trumpet, at pitch in treble clef unless you are well acquainted with the
instruments and know exactly what you want. Otherwise, trust the performer
to know what instrument to use and to transpose flawlessly.

*For horn, write the part in F transposition, in treble clef. The sounding pitch is a fifth below the written note. *The old convention of not using a key signature for horn parts, even for the most tonal of music, and indicating all accidentals in the parts, is still followed by some composers. Other composers of tonal music are now indicating key signatures.

*Stopped horn parts usually involve a pitch change due to the further or different insertion of the hand into the horn. Best advice here is to indicate that the part is stopped, write the notes you want to hear, and trust the horn player to know the best mix of hand position and fingering to make the pitch the one you want.

*Bass clef is often used for very low horn parts. Best practice here is to
maintain the same transposition and write a pitch a fifth higher than the
sounding pitch, just as you would do with treble clef. Some composers and
publishers in the past wrote bass clef horn a fourth lower than the sounding
pitch. Don't do that. Best to keep the same transposition, regardless of
clef.

*Tenor trombones are in bass clef for the most part. It's ok to use
tenor clef for higher passages, but do not overdo clef changes.

*Bass trombone parts will be most always in bass clef with the rare foray into
tenor clef.

*Tuba parts are in bass clef at pitch. Tubas DO NOT transpose
in orchestra or wind ensemble. Again, trust the tubist to choose the right
instrument--just indicate what you want to hear. If passages sit in a low
register, the occasional 8vb is ok to avoid excessive leger lines.

*BUT: It is generally uncool (at least in orchestral music) to write 8vb
passages for treble clef instruments or 8va passages for bass clef
instruments.

FINALLY: Most conductors/publishers still prefer to see a score that has all
the transposing brass and wind instruments in their transposed form. This
is so the conductor sees in the score exactly what the player sees in
his/her part. Of late, however, I am getting requests for scores in C, in
which all lines of the score are at pitch, but the parts are appropriately
transposed for the players.

Learners: Please feel free to post here with any specific questions about
brasses or transposition. No question is too basic...your desire to "get it right" is admirable and appreciated!!

[conwaylemmon]

great info snorlax, thanks a lot.
I have a question that i bet you would know.

I'm working on a contest piece that calls for "a conductor's score as opposed to an orchestral score"

I had assumed that this means that the score is in C and all staves continue on all pages regardless of wheather they contain notes or are blank. is this correct? i have been unable to confirm this anywhere.
thanks
greg

[belkina]

Usually a "conductor's score" just means a large size score, which the conductor can SEE from a distance, as opposed to a miniature score suitable for studying.

great info snorlax, thanks a lot.
I have a question that i bet you would know.

I'm working on a contest piece that calls for "a conductor's score as opposed to an orchestral score"

I had assumed that this means that the score is in C and all staves continue on all pages regardless of wheather they contain notes or are blank. is this correct? i have been unable to confirm this anywhere.
thanks
greg

[mcarwell]

Dear Professor Snorlax,

First, thank you so much for your comments. I found them extremely helpful in bringing the course theory into the present-day, real world practice.

I have seen references to instruments in "CC" or "BBb" (e.g., your references to tubas). I don't understand what this means. Does that simply refer to a tuba in C that sounds an octave lower than written? Does that also mean the "BBb" reference is toa Bb tuba that sounds an octave lower than written?

Thanks for your time and expert contributions.

mcarwell
(new member to the forums)

[snorlax]

Dear Professor Snorlax,

First, thank you so much for your comments. I found them extremely helpful in bringing the course theory into the present-day, real world practice.

I have seen references to instruments in "CC" or "BBb" (e.g., your references to tubas). I don't understand what this means. Does that simply refer to a tuba in C that sounds an octave lower than written? Does that also mean the "BBb" reference is toa Bb tuba that sounds an octave lower than written?

Thanks for your time and expert contributions.

mcarwell
(new member to the forums)

Hi, Mark...

GOOD QUESTION! This nomenclature is at best inconsistent and at worst downright misleading.

CC and BBb refer to the open note of the tuba. The double letter means that tubas are low pitched :) . (The contra octave of the keyboard in some nomenclature).

These designations are indeed very confusing. To make matters worse, people sometimes refer to an EEb tuba that is a 4th above the BBb, but never refer to the F tuba a fifth above the BBb as FF. Go figure.

As to writing for the tuba, here's the rule: Write exactly what you want to hear. Don't transpose or shift octaves. If you want to hear bottom-line G#, write it. A BBb tuba player will push down the first valve. A CC tuba player will push 2-3, etc.

Jim

[conwaylemmon]

Usually a "conductor's score" just means a large size score, which the conductor can SEE from a distance, as opposed to a miniature score suitable for studying.

thanks belkina.

[Ron St. Germain]

Dear Professor:

Could you explain Trombone pedal notes and how they are used. Is it better to call for a bass trombone in a score or just score for trombone pedal notes? Thank you very much.

[snorlax]

Dear Professor:

Could you explain Trombone pedal notes and how they are used. Is it better to call for a bass trombone in a score or just score for trombone pedal notes? Thank you very much.

Pedal notes are the fundamental of any brass instrument's overtone series--the lowest note possible on a given slide position or valve combination. So on a regular tenor or bass trombone, the pedal note in closed (1st) position is the Bb 2 leger lines below the bass staff. Second position's pedal is an A on the third line below the bass staff, etc.

As to what instrument should play it, that is a matter of what sound you want to hear, but here are some generalities.

*It is usually used in the tenor trombone (when used at all) for an effect.

*It will sound fuller on a bass (vs. a tenor) trombone because the player uses a bigger mouthpiece and the tubing is bigger on the bass.

*If your intent is for the note to be raspy and cutting, put it in a tenor trombone and mark it ff. If you wish to rattle walls, put it in the bass trombone marked ff.

*It can be played p or pp on both tenor and bass by a good player, but would be easier pp on bass.

*Dont write very fast passages in pedal register for bone, euph, or tuba. It takes time to get around down there on the bigger instruments, and the notes can get stuffy because of the amount of tubing the air has to pass through.

*Because of the cylindrical bore of the trombone, a really loud pedal tone can be one of the most pungent, cutting sounds a composer can coax out of an orchestral instrument. The bass trombone is second only to the bass drum in sheer decibel power if I recall my acoustics correctly. Could be vice-versa, but at that decibel level, who cares???:eek:

*If you want the note to be round and mellow, put it in the tuba (See conical vs. cylindrical in my long post above).

Actually, the bigger issue for tenor vs. bass is the notes between E one leger line below the bass staff (7th pos) and the Pedal Bb.

Modern tenor trombones have a trigger that makes the instrument almost fully chromatic over that range. The B natural below the bass staff is next to impossible unless the performer has time to pull the trigger's tuning slide--very awkward and best avoided.

Modern bass trombones are fully chromatic and have two triggers--that facilitates alternate positions and makes the instrument more agile, and fully chromatic to a B natural that is so far below the bass staff that I can't sort out how many leger lines.

I tend to look at trombones as a cylindrical male voice choir--TTB or ATB. If four trombones, than TTTB or ATTB, etc.

When time permits, I'll make a post of the "Cash Registers" of each brass instrument--the meat range where most of the work occurs and where your sound better be great!!

Hope this helps...Jim

[Ron St. Germain]

Thank you very much. I have a much better understanding of trombone pedal notes now!! Thanks again.

[marnen]

Here's a copy of what I sent to Gary...


Fascinating. Allow me to add a few comments of my own...

NB: The brass is the section of the orchestra with which I am least familiar (I play at least one instrument from every other section, but not brass). These comments come from my discussions with brass players, my experience as a composer, and research in textbooks and dictionaries of music. Take them for what they're worth, and if you know better than I do, feel free to tell me. :)


1. The standard trumpets in the more modern orchestra are in Bb or C. D and
Eb trumpets are sometimes found in full orchestra, but are more likely to be
heard in Bach and Haydn. The Haydn trumpet concerto was written for an Eb trumpet.


But do people still play Haydn on Eb trumpet?

Bach's trumpeters, of course, used clarino playing, and IIRC his trumpets were twice as long as modern ones. That's a whole other can of worms.

6. A CIMBASSO is a 4- or 5-valved bass trombone in F (as the F tuba) or CC (less common). Its main use is as the brass bass in Verdi operas and similar works. It's also heard on some films. It is played by a bass trombonist or tubist.

I did some research on this very topic when I was in conservatory. From what I recall, "cimbasso" is simply the Italian term for the ophicleide, which is what Verdi would have written for, and the bass trombone was a later substitute.

7. Cornets are rarely--if ever--used in orchestra. For that matter, their
use in wind ensembles has diminished greatly.

Yeah, we now have the reverse of the situation 100 years ago in England. Forsyth spends pages of his orchestration book lamenting the fact that English orchestras play all the trumpet parts on cornets. Now, all the cornet parts get played on trumpet. A pity in both cases.

I recently conducted a Gilbert & Sullivan opera (where the cornet was intended), and was very pleasantly surprised to find that the trumpet player actually had a cornet available. Of course I asked him to use it. It sounded great.

10. The modern bass trombone is one of the two most acoustically pungent
instruments in the orchestra. Write with care.

And the other one would be...? The tuba, I assume?

16. The convention of horns I and III being "high horns" and horns II and IV
being "low horns" is still in widespread use in orchestral playing.

I have talked to hornists about this. While the interlocking is still common, I am told that hornists are not generally the high-range or low-range "specialists" they were 50 years ago, but can now be expected to be comfortable over the whole instrument.

That said, I had a semiprofessional community orchestra play a piece of mine about 9 years ago. When I was handing out parts, one of the hornists (a pro) specifically requested a low part.

16: PART WRITING: (Note--there is not 100% universal accord on some of
these--my advice is based on copying I do for professional clients)

*For trumpet, at pitch in treble clef unless you are well acquainted with the
instruments and know exactly what you want. Otherwise, trust the performer
to know what instrument to use and to transpose flawlessly.

*For horn, write the part in F transposition, in treble clef. The sounding pitch is a fifth below the written note. *The old convention of not using a key signature for horn parts, even for the most tonal of music, and indicating all accidentals in the parts, is still followed by some composers. Other composers of tonal music are now indicating key signatures.

My understanding is that orchestral horn players prefer not to have a key signature. I would guess that band horn players prefer key signatures, but I don't know.

*Tenor trombones are in bass clef for the most part. It's ok to use
tenor clef for higher passages, but do not overdo clef changes.

That's true for jazz, but AFAIK in orchestral music tenor trombones should generally be written in tenor clef. Has this practice changed lately? (I would doubt it, since orchestral players are already accustomed to reading older music in tenor clef.)

*BUT: It is generally uncool (at least in orchestral music) to write 8vb
passages for treble clef instruments or 8va passages for bass clef
instruments.

It is more than uncool. According to no less an authority than Gardner Read, it is actually <em>incorrect</em> to write 8va over anything other than treble clef or 8vb under anything other than bass clef.

FINALLY: Most conductors/publishers still prefer to see a score that has all
the transposing brass and wind instruments in their transposed form. This
is so the conductor sees in the score exactly what the player sees in
his/her part. Of late, however, I am getting requests for scores in C, in
which all lines of the score are at pitch, but the parts are appropriately
transposed for the players.

But please, if you write a score in C, put "SCORE IN C" prominently somewhere on the first page. :)

Actually, there are varying practices even with C scores. There is some disagreement in how to write octave-transposing instruments (piccolo, contrabass) in a C score. My own practice is to use the octave treble and octave bass clefs (you know, the ones with the little 8), so that kind of makes the issue moot. I use the octave clefs even in a transposed score.

Just my 2 sixteenth notes,

[snorlax]

Fascinating. Allow me to add a few comments of my own...
But do people still play Haydn on Eb trumpet?

Yes, absolutely. I can't recall ever seeing/hearing a professional performance of it on any other horn. I heard students, even quite good ones, play it on Bb at a "large midwestern conservatory" 45 mins. from my house, but it sounded like a pretty good Bb trumpet player playing a piece written for an Eb trumpet.

This brings up another brass issue:

All brass instruments can play middle C. The important question is "with what qualities or characteristics"?

A good trumpet player can play the Haydn (make the notes) on a Bb without working up a sweat, but it will not sound like the Eb trumpet.


I did some research on this very topic when I was in conservatory. From what I recall, "cimbasso" is simply the Italian term for the ophicleide, which is what Verdi would have written for, and the bass trombone was a later substitute.

No, sorry. Below is a cimbasso. Not like the ophecleide.
Ophecleide parts in Berlioz, for ex, are now played on CC and F tubas, as in Sym. Fantastique and Francs-Juges. IIRC, Mendelssohn Midsum. Night's Dream has either serpent, ophecleide, or both, and the current instrument of choice is F tuba.

http://www.jrdhome.plus.com/Mattis_Cederberg_Meinl_Bb_Cimbassos.jpg


And the other one would be...? The tuba, I assume?

Bass drum and bass trombone are the two most "decibelacious" instruments.


I have talked to hornists about this. While the interlocking is still common, I am told that hornists are not generally the high-range or low-range "specialists" they were 50 years ago, but can now be expected to be comfortable over the whole instrument.

That said, I had a semiprofessional community orchestra play a piece of mine about 9 years ago. When I was handing out parts, one of the hornists (a pro) specifically requested a low part.

As I mentioned earlier, the standard of brass playing is light-years ahead of where it was even 50 years ago, so all hornists who are serious contenders for full-time orchestras ARE ABLE to play hi or low, but some do have preferences...furthermore, the preference for high or low parts may affect their embouchure setting, the mouthpiece they use, and perhaps even the instrument they use.

My understanding is that orchestral horn players prefer not to have a key signature. I would guess that band horn players prefer key signatures, but I don't know.

As I say, that is a matter in flux. I don't know if it's regional, age-related, or what. I have had requests for and complaints about both absence and presence of keysigs in horn parts.:mad:

But people need to realize that the "no keysig" thing in horn parts was/is a holdover from the natural (valveless) days when horns played mostly chord tones and horn players switched crooks for different keys. So whatever the piece's key was, that was the horn's key, too--the horn was always "in C"--no keysig.

That's true for jazz, but AFAIK in orchestral music tenor trombones should generally be written in tenor clef. Has this practice changed lately? (I would doubt it, since orchestral players are already accustomed to reading older music in tenor clef.)

Yes, it pretty much has changed. Bass and tenor clefs are quite common, and trombonists are proficient at both.

Again, there was a holdover from days, say, of Mozart/Haydn:
3 trombones=alto, tenor, bass
3 clefs=alto, tenor, bass.

To me, best current practice is to avoid many leger lines (above or below the staff) where possible, esp. if a passage requires 3-4 of them consistently. I always discourage clef changes for just a few notes, esp. in music to be performed at sight or in a studio setting. Consider the poor cellist...bass, tenor, treble...

But please, if you write a score in C, put "SCORE IN C" prominently somewhere on the first page. :)

Yep!!

Actually, there are varying practices even with C scores. There is some disagreement in how to write octave-transposing instruments (piccolo, contrabass) in a C score. My own practice is to use the octave treble and octave bass clefs (you know, the ones with the little 8), so that kind of makes the issue moot. I use the octave clefs even in a transposed score.

Yeah, I've seen that in a C score, but never done it. In that case, I don't mess with the octave thing in the score, I just write what the picc or bass player sees, and I put in a text notation on the score that it sounds an octave lower. I NEVER use an octava clef in an instrumental part, though.

Just my 2 sixteenth notes,

and here's two for you. Thanx for the input. :D

[Ron St. Germain]

How adept are French Horns (Do we still call them "French" or just horns?) at rapid passages?

[KeithW]

What's even more interesting (or wierd) is that some older scores (e.g. Rachmaninoff) have (some of) the brass transposed on the score but have no key signature. Everything is an accidental. We're told in a few books that this was because the horn and the trumpet originally had no valves.

Keith Walls
Trumpet, Trombone, Euphonium, Keyboard

[snorlax]

How adept are French Horns (Do we still call them "French" or just horns?) at rapid passages?

Horns are...
A. More agile than one might think, but...
B. Less agile than a trumpet.

Perhaps that is due to the fact that the horn's tone envelope is longer than that of any other brass.

Again, one must ask: Is that so because it really is so, or is it so because 2+ centuries of composers treat it that way?

[snorlax]

What's even more interesting (or wierd) is that some older scores (e.g. Rachmaninoff) have (some of) the brass transposed on the score but have no key signature. Everything is an accidental. We're told in a few books that this was because the horn and the trumpet originally had no valves.

Keith Walls
Trumpet, Trombone, Euphonium, Keyboard

Exactly. If I may indulge in a self-reference:

But people need to realize that the "no keysig" thing in horn parts was/is a holdover from the natural (valveless) days when horns played mostly chord tones and horn players switched crooks for different keys. So whatever the piece's key was, that was the horn's key, too--the horn was always "in C"--no keysig.

BUT: Don't confuse that with a "neutral key signature" in which there either is no tonality or is is so blurred/shifting that keysigs would be meaningless or changing every 2 bars. In those cases, ALL transposing instruments have NO keysig and keep their transpositions. In this case, "no sharps or flats in the keysig" does NOT imply Cmajor/Aminor, but really means "no key"

Jim (TAFKAS)

[gravehill]

Could someone elaborate on the usage of Wagner tubas, please?

Rismky only mentions them briefly. Prof Snorlax already mentioned that they are usually played by hornists. If I were to use Wagner tubas in a piece, would the normal thing to do be to have less horns or are Wagner tubas normally considered as "extra"? Also how many Wagner tubas is enough or a practical amount? How do they relate to the rest in terms of pure volume? Any other important stuff about them?

Great resource, BTW!

[KeithW]

Exactly. If I may indulge in a self-reference:

But people need to realize that the "no keysig" thing in horn parts was/is a holdover from the natural (valveless) days when horns played mostly chord tones and horn players switched crooks for different keys. So whatever the piece's key was, that was the horn's key, too--the horn was always "in C"--no keysig.

Jim (TAFKAS) ...but my point was (and I didn't make it well!) is that the F Horn part is in F on the score (not C) but there is no key signature. I also struggle trying to figure out why a Conductor would rather have a transposing score than a non-transposing (C) score.

Keith Walls

[snorlax]

...but my point was (and I didn't make it well!) is that the F Horn part is in F on the score (not C) but there is no key signature. I also struggle trying to figure out why a Conductor would rather have a transposing score than a non-transposing (C) score.

Keith Walls

Perhaps Maestro Pololanik will comment on this, as I am a mere valve-button-pusher, but I'd say that the conductor has to "be every member of the orchestra simultaneously, and think like they think." In this case, that means when a horn player SEES a treble clef middle C, (regardless of tonal context) his/her reflex hears and produces the F below it. The conductor has to think like that as well, so that's how conductors are trained to hear the score in their mind's ear. While I have to worry only about my own part, the conductor is concerned with every part and has to put him/herself in the shoes of every player simultaneously.

It may only be coincidence that the conductors who ask for scores in C are all younger...perhaps they are not receiving the same training as they used to , or perhaps they cut class that day.

[KeithW]

Could someone elaborate on the usage of Wagner tubas, please?

Rismky only mentions them briefly. Prof Snorlax already mentioned that they are usually played by hornists. If I were to use Wagner tubas in a piece, would the normal thing to do be to have less horns or are Wagner tubas normally considered as "extra"? Also how many Wagner tubas is enough or a practical amount? How do they relate to the rest in terms of pure volume? Any other important stuff about them?

Great resource, BTW! From Blatter:
"In spite of the name, these horns are not tubas as we know them. The instruments were first used in Wagner's Ring an are traditionally played by hornists. Other examples of scoring for Wagner tubas exist in works by A. Bruckner and R. Strauss. The Wagner tubas are built in two sizes, F and Bb. The tone, though somewhat horn like, is also similar to that of the alto horn or euphonium. Except for professional situations, such as major orchestras or opera houses, few horn players have ever seen or played a Wagner tuba."

See http://www.wagner-tuba.com/
for more information. It turns out that it's a type of "Saxophone"-correction - "Saxhorn"
(Adolphe Sax)

[snorlax]

Could someone elaborate on the usage of Wagner tubas, please?
Rismky only mentions them briefly. Prof Snorlax already mentioned that they are usually played by hornists. If I were to use Wagner tubas in a piece, would the normal thing to do be to have less horns or are Wagner tubas normally considered as "extra"? Also how many Wagner tubas is enough or a practical amount? How do they relate to the rest in terms of pure volume? Any other important stuff about them?

Great resource, BTW!

It's decidedly non-standard. I'd call it a curiosity or an oddity, but someone might punch me in the nose.
http://www.wagner-tuba.com/photos/instrument.jpg

I'd not use them in lieu of french horns, but certainly as an ADDITION...Stravinsky does that in Rite of Spring. Here's a foto. Note that the instrument is played left-handed. By a horn player (not shown). Using a horn mouthpiece (present, but if you can see it I worry about you)

It is less mellow and more "present" than a regular horn. Note also that the horn points its bell to the back of the stage, whereas this thing points to the side. It's also a bit wider-bored than a horn, which also helps to impart the extra presence.
I don't have the score in front of me, but Rite of Spring uses at the max 4 or 6 horns and at least a couple Wagner Tubas.

The consensus use of the thing seems to be as horns 5-6-7-8 or as a bridge between the horns and the tuba.



As little as this instrument is used, notating it causes more problems than allother instruments combined.

For those seeking TMI (too much information) about this thing, go here:

www. wagner-tuba.com

EGAD...the thing has its own website :eek: :D

[gravehill]

The consensus use of the thing seems to be as horns 5-6-7-8 or as a bridge between the horns and the tuba.

Thanks for the info.

What do you mean with the 5-6-7-8? Which number represents which instrument group here?

Thing is, I have a nice sample set of Wagner tubas and I like the sound and therefore feel compelled to use them. At the moment "real life players" are out of the equation but maybe/hopefully that will some day change...

[snorlax]

Thanks for the info.

What do you mean with the 5-6-7-8? Which number represents which instrument group here?

Thing is, I have a nice sample set of Wagner tubas and I like the sound and therefore feel compelled to use them. At the moment "real life players" are out of the equation but maybe/hopefully that will some day change...

Normally these "odd brass" appear only in pieces of huge scope such as Rite of Spring.

The normal orch. would have 4 horns, playing 1-2-3-4. To play the Rite (Too lazy to italicize titles today), 4 extra players would be hired to play parts 5-6-7-8. In the Rite, the 5th---8th players would be on the Wagner Tuben at least part of the time. My specifics may be a bit off here as to exactly how many play when, but the principle is right. I don't have the score in front of me.

[gravehill]

Thanks for the clarification! Is it safe to assume that the normal thing to do would be to have the same amount of Wagner tubists as hornists, eg 4+4, for optimal balance in tone and volume?

[KeithW]

Snorlax,

I was wondering if you've ever seen either Mellophoniums or Mellophones in any type of orchestral work? I've seen plenty of Mellphoniums (Mellophonia?) in marching wind ensembles and even a few jazz bands. Reason I ask is that Blatter refers to them. And a Mellophone looks like a small Euphonium, so maybe what I thought was a Euphonium was indeed a Mellophone.

(As an aside, I know several Mellophonium players and they mistakenly call them Mellophones.)

Keith Walls

[snorlax]

Thanks for the clarification! Is it safe to assume that the normal thing to do would be to have the same amount of Wagner tubists as hornists, eg 4+4, for optimal balance in tone and volume?

Not really. It all depends upon the sound you want to hear. Anything's possible here...well, almost anything...:)

[snorlax]

Snorlax,

I was wondering if you've ever seen either Mellophoniums or Mellophones in any type of orchestral work? I've seen plenty of Mellphoniums (Mellophonia?) in marching wind ensembles and even a few jazz bands. Reason I ask is that Blatter refers to them. And a Mellophone looks like a small Euphonium, so maybe what I thought was a Euphonium was indeed a Mellophone.

(As an aside, I know several Mellophonium players and they mistakenly call them Mellophones.)

Keith Walls
Keith,
I have been on this earth a good number of years, grew up in NY City, and lived in several of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world as well as in a few rural areas. As such, I have seen and experienced much of what life has to offer.

I can say, however, that I am a better person for NEVER having heard those beasts in anything resembling an orchestra.

A mellophone is usually a bell-down, valves-up horn sorta thing.

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Emellophone/images/myhorns/amati.jpg


A mellophonium (may be a trademark name of Conn Corp) is a thing with a huge bell flair like a horn, but with top-action valves and a straight-out bell.
Stan Kenton asked trumpet players to use them when he was in his "large neophonic" phase. I fully believe the story that the trumpet section threw them into a pool when Kenton was asleep.
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Emellophone/images/mellophones/mellophonium_3.jpg

If there is any justice in the world, all the rest of these things will wind up at the bottom of some briny deep.:rolleyes:

[KeithW]

I stand corrected... the one that looks like a Euphonium is indeed an Alto horn. And the Mellophoniums that I was talking about look like this:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:hQfTLv94rnIEIM:members.aol.com/ncpmb/Mellophone.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mellophone.jpg

I guess the term "mellophone" is indeed ambiguous...

Keith Walls

[joaz]

I have nothing germane to add to the discussion, except how much I am enjoying it.
I am learning a lot from these post tutorial discussions.

Great stuff Jim, ( and other contributors).

Brass playing and writing, has come on in leaps and bounds since R.K.'s day, and it is nice to see that reflected in this discussion.

regards Joe

[Garritan]

This certainly is an interesting discussion. Thanks Prof. Jim for your insights into the brass instruments.

During Rimsky-Korsakov's time, valved brass instruments were a relatively new thing. It was only in the early 1800's that the first valved instruments were invented. In the mid to late 1800's, there was an exposion of new brass instruments. Below are approximate dates of the introduction of these new valved brass instruments:

1827 - cornet
1828 - Valve Trombone
1831 - Cimbasso
1839 - Bb/F trombone
1835 - Valve Horn
1835 - Tuba
1843 - the mighty Euphonium!
1845 - Saxhorn
1853 - Wagner Tuba
1855 - Mellophone
1890 - the modern orchestral Trumpet
1890 - Sousaphone
1905 - Piccolo B flat trumpet

With the relative newness of brass instruments, and neoteric instruments entering the scene (or disappearing), the full range and depth of brass was not have been explored by composers until the 1900's. This may be why Rimsky-Korsakov does not assign as much importance to the brass as modern composers do.

Question for brass lovers: What is the difference between a Euphoium and a Baritone?

[snorlax]

Question for brass lovers: What is the difference between a Euphonium and a Baritone?

About $850.

[Andy Brick]

...but my point was (and I didn't make it well!) is that the F Horn part is in F on the score (not C) but there is no key signature. I also struggle trying to figure out why a Conductor would rather have a transposing score than a non-transposing (C) score.

Keith Walls

In my experience, there are a few advantages to conducting from a transposed score.

1. Its really a matter of convenience more than anything. Even if you specify from the very beginning of the first rehearsal that you are dealing with everything in concert pitch, there will inevitably be confusion if you speak of pitches that the players do not see on their parts.

2. Transposing scores tend to sit better in the staves. Once you get the hang of reading transpositions it becomes much nicer to look at transposed low horn parts than to look at tons of ledger lines in concert horn parts. If you write and read transposed scores, you dont have any questions about octave transposing instruments like piccolo.

3. Transposing scores represent pitch characteristics more accurately. When a conductor sees a lot of ledger lines it tells us something. Double reeds with lots of ledger lines are going to sound a bit pinched. Put the english horn in concert pitch and now those ledger lines dissapear and the score LOOKS like it will sound differently. Its kind of like showing a bus driver a picture of a blue stop sign. Yes, he sees its shape means stop and he sees the letters mean stop but the damn thing is BLUE and hes not gonna hit the brakes unless he sees RED. ;-)


The one area that I prefer concert scores is in compositions that employ a very modern harmonic approach. To the conductor and performer, correct enharmonic spelling is very important. When the music gets harmonically ambiguous it can be very tricky to tell if the notes are spelled correctly in a transposed score.

[aLfR3dd]

[quote=aLfR3dd]i have a couple of john williams scores from star wars..and everything is in C :( ...it is this the case of modern harmonic approach?

[KeithW]

In my experience, there are a few advantages to conducting from a transposed score.

1. Its really a matter of convenience more than anything. Even if you specify from the very beginning of the first rehearsal that you are dealing with everything in concert pitch, there will inevitably be confusion if you speak of pitches that the players do not see on their parts.

2. Transposing scores tend to sit better in the staves. Once you get the hang of reading transpositions it becomes much nicer to look at transposed low horn parts than to look at tons of ledger lines in concert horn parts. If you write and read transposed scores, you dont have any questions about octave transposing instruments like piccolo.

3. Transposing scores represent pitch characteristics more accurately. When a conductor sees a lot of ledger lines it tells us something. Double reeds with lots of ledger lines are going to sound a bit pinched. Put the english horn in concert pitch and now those ledger lines dissapear and the score LOOKS like it will sound differently. Its kind of like showing a bus driver a picture of a blue stop sign. Yes, he sees its shape means stop and he sees the letters mean stop but the damn thing is BLUE and hes not gonna hit the brakes unless he sees RED. ;-)


The one area that I prefer concert scores is in compositions that employ a very modern harmonic approach. To the conductor and performer, correct enharmonic spelling is very important. When the music gets harmonically ambiguous it can be very tricky to tell if the notes are spelled correctly in a transposed score.
Thanks for that explanation. Most books I've seen that even address the subject only say that "...the transposed score is the norm..." and leave it at that. If you are studying a score for which there is no recording available and you don't know the work, would you like to see a concert pitch "study" score or even a piano reduction?

Keith Walls

[Andy Brick]

[quote=aLfR3dd]i have a couple of john williams scores from star wars..and everything is in C :( ...it is this the case of modern harmonic approach?


No this isnt really the case of a very modern harmonic apporach. Its a little curious. I would guess with JWs background that he prefers transposed scores but i could be wrong. Maybe the publisher is trying to make the score more appealing to the general "Piano-reading" public and so the score is in concert to simplify.

Andy

[aLfR3dd]

:) Tnx Andy.....really!! ....i have another question! :o ...i mean...every orchestra "family" (strings, brass, woodwinds ...) has a bass in it...(d.basses, bass tromb-Tuba...)...i really don't know when to use the bass clarinet and the contrabassoon...i saw that the contrabassoon often doubles the d.basses ...can someone please tell me more about these 2 instruments? tnx :rolleyes:

[snorlax]

:) Tnx Andy.....really!! ....i have another question! :o ...i mean...every orchestra "family" (strings, brass, woodwinds ...) has a bass in it...(d.basses, bass tromb-Tuba...)...i really don't know when to use the bass clarinet and the contrabassoon...i saw that the contrabassoon often doubles the d.basses ...can someone please tell me more about these 2 instruments? tnx :rolleyes:

These 2 instruments are not part of a basic orchestra--they are additional instruments .
The bassoon is the normal bass for the woodwind group, going down to b flat below the bass staff. One of the bassoonists in the orchestra will have a contra and use it when called for, or the orch. will hire an extra bassoonist for a "big blow" piece. Listen to Ravel's orchestration of his Mother Goose Suite for a cool use of contra. It's used there to give a gruff, grotesque monster effect. It isn't terribly agile but doesn't have to be :) .

Bass clarinet is perhaps a bit more common, but still an "additional force." Again,one of the clarinetists will be the designated "bass doubler" or the orch will hire an extra player for the big blows. It is actually one of my favorite instruments--great for jazz--but not a member of the basic orchestra. Being a euphonium player, though, I am partial to that pitch range:D .

WHATEVER YOU DO...IF YOU USE BASS CLARINET IN YOUR PIECE, DO NOT WRITE THE PART IN TRANSPOSING BASS CLEF.

IN FACT, NEVER USE TRANSPOSING BASS CLEF FOR ANYTHING.

Jim

[snorlax]

A NOTE ABOUT "ANCILLARY INSTRUMENTS"

Many people are asking--off- and on-list--about instruments such as contrabassoons, contrabass clarinets, bass trumpets, wagner tubas, etc.

All of these are ancillary instruments--not part of what I'd call a basic orchestra--they are support forces with limited usage.

They appear mostly as part of what I call "big blow" pieces--lots of EXTRA winds or brass. Additionally, some avant-gardists value them if they are into writing different and unconventional sounds.

Consider all the extra brass in the first movement of Janacek's Sinfonietta--an orchestra has to PAY an extra 12 or so brass players for a couple rehearsals and performance--24 or 36 services of pay for basically ONE MOVEMENT OF ONE PIECE.

Due to orchestral budget tightness, these big blow pieces are not going to be performed very much these days.

So--orchestrators and composers, please keep this in mind as you write. If your goal is to write for professional orchestras and get your pieces played, you're wise to make very judicious use of these "extra" instruments.

Just to give an example, my brass experience tells me:
*Most horn players DO NOT own Wagner tuben. (may be different in the LA studio scene, what's left of it.)
*Even if a horn player DOES own a WT, s/he probably will bitch and moan about having to play it. (see parenthetical above)
*Most trombonists probably DO own a euphonium (tenor tuba)
*but relatively few own a bass trumpet, same for trumpeters.

Proceed knowing that budget realities constrain wholesale hiring of extra orchestral players and/or numerous doubler fees.

Jim

[snorlax]

1. A primer on transposition?
*How did transposition evolve?
*What instruments transpose?
*Why is transposition needed?
*Why is transposition helpful?
*What instrument plays what note when it sees middle C on its part, so how should I prepare the score and parts?
...etc

Seems as if a lot of questions about this are forthcoming. If there is sufficient demand, Iwill do it.

2. A primer on score/part preparation?
*Profesional orchestras are a bit picky about paper sizes, etc, and
*The sizes are not easily available everywhere
*Where (not) to put the page turns
*Inside and outside of the desks
*What instrument goes where on the score?
etc...

[belkina]

I second this post! Most non-professional composers never make the connection between the formation of the orchestra and $$$$. If at all possible it is ALWAYS better to write for standard formations and to avoid unusual instruments.

The only qualification I'd add is that within the auxiliaries, some are much more common than others. Piccolo, bass clarinet, English Horn, and contrabassoon are not at all rare in professional orchestras. And LOTS of classical repertoire calls for them.

Wagner tubas, bass trumpet, etc. are an entirely different matter; many orchestras NEVER use these (not least because the repertoire for them is SOOO limited).

A NOTE ABOUT "ANCILLARY INSTRUMENTS"

Many people are asking--off- and on-list--about instruments such as contrabassoons, contrabass clarinets, bass trumpets, wagner tubas, etc.

All of these are ancillary instruments--not part of what I'd call a basic orchestra--they are support forces with limited usage.

They appear mostly as part of what I call "big blow" pieces--lots of EXTRA winds or brass. Additionally, some avant-gardists value them if they are into writing different and unconventional sounds.

Consider all the extra brass in the first movement of Janacek's Sinfonietta--an orchestra has to PAY an extra 12 or so brass players for a couple rehearsals and performance--24 or 36 services of pay for basically ONE MOVEMENT OF ONE PIECE.

Due to orchestral budget tightness, these big blow pieces are not going to be performed very much these days.

So--orchestrators and composers, please keep this in mind as you write. If your goal is to write for professional orchestras and get your pieces played, you're wise to make very judicious use of these "extra" instruments.

Just to give an example, my brass experience tells me:
*Most horn players DO NOT own Wagner tuben. (may be different in the LA studio scene, what's left of it.)
*Even if a horn player DOES own a WT, s/he probably will bitch and moan about having to play it. (see parenthetical above)
*Most trombonists probably DO own a euphonium (tenor tuba)
*but relatively few own a bass trumpet, same for trumpeters.

Proceed knowing that budget realities constrain wholesale hiring of extra orchestral players and/or numerous doubler fees.

Jim

[falcon1]

contra-bassoons are jused quite frequently today and there's fair amount of (older) orchestral works which use it. Haydn, for example, used it quite a lot in "The Creation" - which must be also one of the oldest pieces to make use of Trombone's pedal tones. Isn't that correct Snorlax?
But it's right that bass-trumpet is very rarely seen on the orchestra stage.

[joaz]

2. A primer on score/part preparation?

*Profesional orchestras are a bit picky about paper sizes, etc, and
*The sizes are not easily available everywhere
*Where (not) to put the page turns
*Inside and outside of the desks
*What instrument goes where on the score?
etc...


I for one would like to see this, bigtime.

regards Joe

[snorlax]

I second this post! Most non-professional composers never make the connection between the formation of the orchestra and $$$$. If at all possible it is ALWAYS better to write for standard formations and to avoid unusual instruments.

The only qualification I'd add is that within the auxiliaries, some are much more common than others. Piccolo, bass clarinet, English Horn, and contrabassoon are not at all rare in professional orchestras. And LOTS of classical repertoire calls for them.

Wagner tubas, bass trumpet, etc. are an entirely different matter; many orchestras NEVER use these (not least because the repertoire for them is SOOO limited).

Yeah, I'll go for that; you're right...I was really wanting to refer mostly to the situations in which the orch. had to go out & hire at great expense--I referred numerous times to the "big blow" stuff--probably because the big blows were the only times I got hired to play:) . The brass players rarely paid attention to the woodwinds, anyway.:rolleyes:
Jim

[pdNH]

When I was in high school concert band during the dark ages, all we had were trumpets/cornets, french horns, baritones, trombones, and tuba. In football season the french horn players carried Alto horns.

From watching "Brassed Off" more times than I can count ("It's a bloody euphonium!") and seeing some brass ensembles I know that all these other things exist but I don't know anything about their ranges. Could somebody provide a list? Euphonium, Mellophone, Mellophonium, Flugelhorn (not mentioned in this topic yet), Tenor horn, and so on. Are they all conical bore?

[snorlax]

When I was in high school concert band during the dark ages, all we had were trumpets/cornets, french horns, baritones, trombones, and tuba. In football season the french horn players carried Alto horns.

From watching "Brassed Off" more times than I can count ("It's a bloody euphonium!") and seeing some brass ensembles I know that all these other things exist but I don't know anything about their ranges. Could somebody provide a list? Euphonium, Mellophone, Mellophonium, Flugelhorn (not mentioned in this topic yet), Tenor horn, and so on. Are they all conical bore?

This is all coming soon...patience :D
Summer school started this week (some people like my classes so much they take 'em 2 or 3 times...) & I've had a few gigs here & there.

I will make the "cash register" post I mentioned earlier and include info about transpositions, ranges, etc.

Jim

[snorlax]

See http://www.wagner-tuba.com/
for more information. It turns out that it's a type of "Saxophone"
(Adolphe Sax)

Well, Keith, you're close. It's a SAXHORN, not a saxophone. Saxhorns (same Adolphe Sax, though) are valved brass. Clever guy, that Sax...horns and saxophones. I guess the greatness of the saxhorns would cancel out the evils of the saxophones.

Not to be confused with that errant throwing second baseman Steve "Alto" Sax.

Jim

[rgsmith]

A collection of comments on this really useful thread:

Instead of Tuben (Wagner tubas), use either Euphonia or Baritones (the difference being in the size of the bore; the Baritone is a much smaller bore instrument that is usually available only in the UK). They (and the players) are much more available, the instruments are better and sound very much alike, and the intonation is better.

Speaking as a horn player, I prefer a key signature.

I prefer to write on a C score but have found (to my surprise) that most conductors prefer a transposed score. I think it's just a habit. I would like to see the C score become more normal but don't expect to.

Stopped horns go up in pitch by half a step. NEVER, NEVER change the transposition, that will only create confusion. Write the pitch you want (transposed for the F horn) and let the player make the additional transposition. All stopped parts are played this way. BTW, muted horns do not change in pitch.

Horn players do not like mellophones. They have a shallow sound and respond to the player like a trumpet. I have never know them to be used in an orchestra.

Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com (http://www.rgsmithmusic.com)

[DeTuneTinker]

[quote=snorlax]1. A primer on transposition?

*How did transposition evolve?
*What instruments transpose?
*Why is transposition needed?
*Why is transposition helpful?
*What instrument plays what note when it sees middle C on its part, so how should I prepare the score and parts?
...etc

Seems as if a lot of questions about this are forthcoming. If there is sufficient demand, Iwill do it.

I'd love to see this. Fate changed my course and I majored in engineering instead of music, so I ended up seeing things differently: music to me (on that side of my brain) is a sequential and combinatorial parade of unambiguous frequencies, amplitudes, and phases. I'd love to understand why certain instruments appear to live in a parallel universe where C is something other than 440*2exp(3/12)Hz in an equally tempered scale.

[qccowboy]

having worked as a conductor, I can say that I MUCH prefer to see a transposed score. If you're working only with 2 transposing instruments (horn and clarinet for example) in a score, then it's pretty easy for the conductor to do a quicky transposition to reference a note in the score when discussing with the musician.

however, this is always the case. If the clarinetist is hopping from Bb to A clarinet for example. Or the trumpetist decides that he'd rather play a Bb part on a C, or actually HAS a part that requires switching back and forth.

Rehearsals aways go more smoothly when the conductor doesn't have to also remember who's transposing what to where.

Composers: write your performance scores transposed. Scores "in C" are only useful for study by those too lazy to transpose in their heads. :p

[rgsmith]

"Composers: write your performance scores transposed. Scores "in C" are only useful for study by those too lazy to transpose in their heads. :p"
I find this assertion far to broad and quite offensive. Are you suggesting that everyone who perfers transposed scores is actually studying the harmony? Maybe they are only reading melodic lines and guessing at the harmony. My comment questioned no one's motive (yours certainly did!). I just said I was suprised at the overwhelming preference for a transposed score.

In fact the large majority of conductors who prefer transposed scores simply don't want to transpose in rehearsal. They want it done for them. That's not my guess, that's what they have told me.

Personally, I think rehearsal discussions should be carried out in concert pitch and the musicians responsible for their own transposition but most rehearsals aren't run that way.

Richard Smith
www.rgsmithmusic.com (http://www.rgsmithmusic.com)

[benhillyard]

When I was in high school concert band during the dark ages, all we had were trumpets/cornets, french horns, baritones, trombones, and tuba. In football season the french horn players carried Alto horns.

From watching "Brassed Off" more times than I can count ("It's a bloody euphonium!") and seeing some brass ensembles I know that all these other things exist but I don't know anything about their ranges. Could somebody provide a list? Euphonium, Mellophone, Mellophonium, Flugelhorn (not mentioned in this topic yet), Tenor horn, and so on. Are they all conical bore?

I've found Wikipedia.com to be a valuable source of information when writing for an instrument for the first time. The articles tend to be written by players and very comprehensive. Of course, nothing beats finding a player and talking to them.

Your post got me thinking about regional differences in an instrument's availability. I grew up in brass band country not far from where Brassed Off was set and euphonium and flugelhorn players were ten a penny. We even had a euphonium player in the school orchestra making up for the lack of French horns. (BTW, following discussion elsewhere, I still like to say 'French' horns to distinguish from the general jazz usage of 'horn' to mean anything blown. It's not often an issue but I like to be clear about these things! :) ).

[Leaf]

If there isn't a definite consensus, would be the best policy be to make two versions of the score, one with key sigs w/transposed parts and another one in C, would that be the way to go?
(and if this question indicates I have totally misinterpreted something, please let me know)

Would that be a great auto feature for the notation programs to have, a convert button that would take your finnished score and re-render the whole thing in C on a separate file?


BTW, great thread!

PS: if anyone has a Wagner horn laying around that you don't need anymore, you can send it to me.

[KeithW]

If there isn't a definite consensus, would be the best policy be to make two versions of the score, one with key sigs w/transposed parts and another one in C, would that be the way to go?
(and if this question indicates I have totally misinterpreted something, please let me know)

Would that be a great auto feature for the notation programs to have, a convert button that would take your finnished score and re-render the whole thing in C on a separate file?


BTW, great thread!

PS: if anyone has a Wagner horn laying around that you don't need anymore, you can send it to me.
This is a very trivial thing to do with both Finale and Sibelius, and I often print jazz scores out this way, one to give to the conductor, one to study while the band is playing. My feeble mind finds it easier to assimilate the sounds coming in with what's on the printed page if it's in concert pitch.

Keith Walls

[Garritan]

Well, Keith, you're close. It's a SAXHORN, not a saxophone. Saxhorns (same Adolphe Sax, though) are valved brass. Clever guy, that Sax...horns and saxophones. I guess the greatness of the saxhorns would cancel out the evils of the saxophones.

Not to be confused with that errant throwing second baseman Steve "Alto" Sax.

JimThe Saxhorn is an interesting instrument. I is an old style marching trombone with the bell pointed backwards over the player's left shoulder and was popular among the troops in the US Civil War. I am not sure I would have liked to have been marching behind it. :eek:

http://www.horsesoldier.com/catalog/400-404.JPEG

[rgsmith]

The bell pointed backwards so the band could march in front of the army and be heard by the troops. Guess that means if the music stopped it was time to RUN! :)

The bell to the rear was only one configuration and I think they are still around. Although there are differences, one could make an argument that modern Euphonia, Tubas, and Flugel Horns are pretty much sax horns (or at least descended from them).

Richard Smith

[Ron St. Germain]

In Kays' Creative Orchestration he states "brasses are good in flat keys" with no further information. Is this true and, if so, why? Thanks

[snorlax]

In Kays' Creative Orchestration he states "brasses are good in flat keys" with no further information. Is this true and, if so, why? Thanks

Not necessarily.

My guess is that this book is somewhat dated, especially if you mean George McKay. Doesn't that book date from the late 50s?? Is it primarily for "stage Band"? Can't recall right now.

That statement is often made because the orchestral brass often have Bb, Eb, or F as their fundamental. C instruments were likely less popular in that day...HOWEVER:

1. Orchestral trumpet players usually play C trumpet, and the standard orchestral tuba is in CC (or F)...and

2. A good brass player (good enough to play in an orchestra) can play in any key on their instrument, and horn players can frack in any key.

3. Having said that, some keys are easier than others, especially where rapid passages are concerned. I ain't about to play Carnival of Venice in E on the Bb Euphonium.

B and E are awkward on Bb instruments, C#/Db and F#/Gb are awkward on C instruments, E and A are awkward on Eb instruments, F#/Gb and B are awkward on F instruments. Same finger patterns for each instrument.

A trumpet player might play a piece in B on the C trumpet, since fingering would be easier on C than on Bb for a piece in B. Additionally, most all professional trumpeters can transpose quite well at sight.

100% Easiest keys: for Bb brass=F, Bb, Eb.
for C brass=G, C, F
for Eb brass=Bb, Eb, Ab
for F brass=C, F, Bb
If you are writing for beginner band or middle school band, stick primarily to those keys.

All the old warhorse brass solos like Carnival of Venice are in the flat keys for ease of fingering, but an orchestral part can be in any key your heart desires.
Fear not.

Jim

[Ron St. Germain]

Great answer. That's a definite print out. Thanks!

[belkina]

Just a note to Snorlox: Thanks for your informative posts on brass. I have learned some useful things.

:-)

[snorlax]

Just a note to Snorlox: Thanks for your informative posts on brass. I have learned some useful things. :-)

THANKS, Alan! You have made my day!:o In turn, I have learnt very much from you via your writings and presence here...

J. Snorlax Williams