Lesson 6 Discussion - Melody in the Wood-wind

[Garritan]

Here you can ask questions and discuss Lesson 6...
Gary Garritan

[wilx]

I know 'english horn' is the translation, but doesn't everyone refer to the instrument as a cor anglais?

Really good stuff though - I'm crap with woodwinds. Not necessarily solo, but as part of large tutti orchestrations I'm never sure what to do with them, so hopefully I'll be enlightened after a couple more lessons!

[aLfR3dd]

I know 'english horn' is the translation, but doesn't everyone refer to the instrument as a cor anglais?

Really good stuff though - I'm crap with woodwinds. Not necessarily solo, but as part of large tutti orchestrations I'm never sure what to do with them, so hopefully I'll be enlightened after a couple more lessons!


same problem for me man.......and another question....is the english horn used in "tutti" sections and if yes for which reason? ...i mean the winds family is too big! :D

[belkina]

"English Horn" and "cor anglais" are both common usage.

The English horn can indeed be used in a tutti, but we won't be discussing that until we get to HARMONY in the woodwinds.

same problem for me man.......and another question....is the english horn used in "tutti" sections and if yes for which reason? ...i mean the winds family is too big! :D

[Leaf]

Excelent work Robert.


Gary,
I have a Harp question.

I decided to manually put the notes of the score example "cf. No. 8. Snegourotchka, Section 231 - Clarinet melody" from lesson 6, into Finale as an exersize because I'm learning Finale. Chose that one because I think the Clarinet in that one is awesome, kept playing it over and over wishing it was longer, plus I chose it because the Harp has cross staff so I need to learn how to do that.

I started with the harp notes. All i have so far is one measure close to being right, but copied and pasted it to several other measures along with some pieces I saved reversed to do the last two measures, just so I could listen, and well, it sounds pretty awesome too.

Is this set of 24 sixteenth notes in tuplets a very common chord or phrase for the Harp, and is it a hard one to play? Is it one that should be kept moderately short with some following rest for the players fingers?

If it's not right for discussion of Harp yet, I don't mind waiting, I was just curious because it sounded like it would be a full plate for a Harp player.

David

[marnen]

I know 'english horn' is the translation, but doesn't everyone refer to the instrument as a cor anglais?

Not in America. Common American usage is "English horn", while common British usage is "cor anglais". Not sure about other English-speaking countries.

[marnen]

Gary,
I have a Harp question.

I'm not Gary, and harp is probably off-topic for a woodwind thread, but I'll give a quick answer. Gary, if you'd rather split this off into a separate harp thread, go ahead.

I decided to manually put the notes of the score example "cf. No. 8. Snegourotchka, Section 231 - Clarinet melody" from lesson 6, into Finale
[...]
because the Harp has cross staff so I need to learn how to do that.

Beautiful excerpt, isn't it? And if you need Finale help, feel free to e-mail or PM me -- I know the program quite well.

[...]
Is this set of 24 sixteenth notes in tuplets a very common chord or phrase for the Harp, and is it a hard one to play? Is it one that should be kept moderately short with some following rest for the players fingers?

I don't see why it would be a problem. Harpists are used to this sort of figure -- in some pieces, it's about all they get to do. However, note one thing: at no time does Rimsky write more than four notes in either hand's segment of the arpeggio. This is good practice, since harpists only have four usable fingers on each hand (classical harpists generally do not use their pinkies, though some folk harpists do). I mention this because it can trip up pianists, who are used to thinking for five fingers on each hand.

(Yes, I know the thumb isn't technically a finger. "Digit" just sounded too awkward!)

[belkina]

In the comments about "natural order" at the end of the lesson, neither Rimsky nor Belkin mentions that it's quite common -- in fact, often desirable -- to put the clarinets higher than the oboes. This is often done to achieve a more brilliant sound, or simply because the clarinet can go higher than the oboe. In my opinion, this practice is too common to qualify as a real disturbance of "natural order".

The point if RK's "natural order", I think, is to avoid getting into trouble with the low register of the oboe. And if the clarinet is used (melodically) much above the treble staff, the sound is much more strained then the flute, which is the "natural" inhabitant of this space. More of a special effect ...

[Garritan]

Gary,
I have a Harp question.

I decided to manually put the notes of the score example "cf. No. 8. Snegourotchka, Section 231 - Clarinet melody" from lesson 6, into Finale as an exersize because I'm learning Finale. Chose that one because I think the Clarinet in that one is awesome, kept playing it over and over wishing it was longer, plus I chose it because the Harp has cross staff so I need to learn how to do that.

I started with the harp notes. All i have so far is one measure close to being right, but copied and pasted it to several other measures along with some pieces I saved reversed to do the last two measures, just so I could listen, and well, it sounds pretty awesome too.

Is this set of 24 sixteenth notes in tuplets a very common chord or phrase for the Harp, and is it a hard one to play? Is it one that should be kept moderately short with some following rest for the players fingers?

If it's not right for discussion of Harp yet, I don't mind waiting, I was just curious because it sounded like it would be a full plate for a Harp player.

DavidDavid,

Arpeggiated passages like shown in Score Example #8 are common and even characteristic for the harp. An arpeggio is "the playing of the chord with its notes sounded in succession, rather than simulataneously".
The term 'arpeggio' comes from the Italian word for harp or arpa.

Argeggios can be played up ascendingly and down descendingly, in either direction, straight or in triplets (as in Example #8).

This particular example is a natural progression involving few pedal changes and would not be difficult for a harpist.

Gary Garritan

[Garritan]

I don't see why it would be a problem. Harpists are used to this sort of figure -- in some pieces, it's about all they get to do. However, note one thing: at no time does Rimsky write more than four notes in either hand's segment of the arpeggio. This is good practice, since harpists only have four usable fingers on each hand (classical harpists generally do not use their pinkies, though some folk harpists do). I mention this because it can trip up pianists, who are used to thinking for five fingers on each hand.

(Yes, I know the thumb isn't technically a finger. "Digit" just sounded too awkward!)Marnen,

Good point you raise. Some composers write for harp like it is a piano (and some for seven-dactyl alien harpists :D). The harpist uses only four fingers in each hand:, the thumb, 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers. The pinkie finger is not typically used. With the fingers perpendicular to the strings and the thumb up, the pinkie finger cannot be used effectively.

It is important when composing for harp to keep in mind that a harpist will play a passage with up to four fingers on each hand.

Gary Garritan

[marnen]

The point if RK's "natural order", I think, is to avoid getting into trouble with the low register of the oboe.

Perhaps. I had more the sense that he was using it as simply a basic guideline.

And if the clarinet is used (melodically) much above the treble staff, the sound is much more strained then the flute.

True, but I was talking about the use of the clarinet in a woodwind tutti, and not in quite such a high register (there's a good example in that <cite>Snegurochka</cite> excerpt, with the mid-range oboe melody accompanied by moderately high clarinet and flutes). However, on reflection, I realize that this chapter is more about melodic use of woodwinds, and so your interpretation may well come closer to Rimsky's meaning than mine did.

[Leaf]

Thanks very much for the replies Marnen and Gary,

And thanks for the offer to help with Finale Marnen, I may need that from time to time. I finished the Harp's staves, so far it was relatively easy after i completed one measure i just copied and pasted and then moved the notes up or down with simple edit, and the clef change at the end was easy with the clef tool.

ok back to woodwinds, sorry for diversion.

David

[Poolman]

Re: the clarinet higher than oboe question:

To decide whether to put the clarinets above the oboes will usually depend on what is going on elsewhere.

If there is not much brass, and the volumes are not above forte, then Rimsky's "natural order" will be right.

If there is a big tutti, with plenty of brass, and you want maximum reinforcement from the woodwind, then keep the oboes low/medium in pitch, where they are strongest, and clarinets fairly high, where their penetrating tone will tell. They could perhaps dovetail with the flutes, or be immediately below them. Above the stave, anyway.

But these remarks apply to ensemble playing, not solos. The clarinet has as much right as any other woodwind to take a solo, and if this needs to be in a high register, so be it, so long as one avoids the screamy effect (probably safe up to G or A above the stave (written note).

[Poolman]

Re: the clarinet higher than oboe question:

But these remarks apply to ensemble playing, not solos. The clarinet has as much right as any other woodwind to take a solo, and if this needs to be in a high register, so be it, so long as one avoids the screamy effect (probably safe up to G or A above the stave (written note).
May I correct my own error? Not G or A above the stave, but C or D above the stave. (I had been working on some horn music previously and must have had the wrong transposition in my head.)