why is everyone using reverb plugins when you can use a external reverb

[Jeff4h]

Im always seeing post about reverb plugins and I have a few myself. However they eat up so much processing power. I pulled out my old rev 7 and it still sounds better than any plug in, assign a couple of mono outs to it in nuendo, send it back to two tracs, burn it to the tracs and bingo, better sound and uses no prcessing power. Maybe more people are doing this than I think but to me there are so many cheap units you can buy that sill sound great. Rev 7s go for a couple hundred, spx90s not much more. Lexicon reflex and some other great models for under $400 tc electroncs had some killer ones out for $700 and under I just cant see spending over $1000 for something that doesnt sound as good and eats processing power. there may be some things the convulution reverbs sound better for but for the most part and most things the hardware verbs blow the plugins away are cheaper and a lot of times easier to use

[jeffn1]

I don't think these is a need to spend that much for a good convolution reverb. SIR is free (but CPU heavy). I picked up Pristine Light (a version of which is now included with Sonar) for very little. If you check out k-v-r there are a number of excellent alternatives to Waves, etc.

jeffn1

[DPDAN]

I have an old Lexicon 200 ($4800.00) when I bought it new, and although it still sounds excellent, it is nothing like Altiverb 5.

The ability to place a voice or an instrument anywhere in the "given" space is simply not possible with these outboard hardware devices. Besides, if you are doing a large project, it is most likely being produced on a reasonably new Mac G5 or a Windows PC that plenty of horspower, and has no problem providing the necessary instances of Altiverb that you desire.

That's just my opinion, and hey, it is nice to load a project and have all the reverbs right there already set exactly the way you want.

I believe these are the reasons most people are using software instead of hardware. To each his own, but these are just my thoughts.

Anyone using a Yamaha SPX90 for anything that is supposed to sound pretty should at least buy a cheap Lexicon Alex on Ebay, it is a billiion times better sounding. Well, OK, a hundred times. :eek:
wha wha wha wha wha wha wha :D

Dan :)

[Nick Batzdorf]

Jeff, you can run ten billion Altiverbs on a G5, and they sound fantastic. Your REV7 is nice, but Altiverb makes a mockery of it for space simulation.

That's why I got rid of all my outboard stuff except for two tweaky channel strips.

[JonFairhurst]

When you run reverb internally, everything remains digital, and you don't need any additional I/Os to/from your soundcard. No analog level matching to worry about, and no digital wordclock, formats, bit depths and latency problems.

[PeterRoos]

There is even an excellent IR library available with the main presets of the TCE 6000, but as I say this, I am risking my presence on this forum ;)

(moderators: I want to start running a new banner in august again - please don't take this reply as too commercial, I'm just trying to say that there are really excellent digital reverb plugins options as opposed to analog devices)

[jeffn1]

There is even an excellent IR library available with the main presets of the TCE 6000, but as I say this, I am risking my presence on this forum ;)

(moderators: I want to start running a new banner in august again - please don't take this reply as too commercial, I'm just trying to say that there are really excellent digital reverb plugins options as opposed to analog devices)

Isn't it obscene that we have to worry about providing any information relating to a product that doesn't pay tribute to this forum.

Sheeesh!

jeffn1

[tomhartman]

Steve Martin once said that airplane food was made by taking picture of real food, and going from there.

I haven't heard a plug in that sounds as good as my PCM 91, much less heavy hitters like the 480, 300, 4000 and 6000. Things like Altiverb are fine for simulating a real space here and there, but that is of minimum importance to me most of the time, and certainly not worth the processor time on a dense pop mix.

I am really tired of software plug ins, with their many upgrades, bugs, incompatiblilites. Like computers, they are like buying an ice cube. The computer is a must, the plugs aren't.

Whenever I can buy hardware...compressors, verbs, you name it...I do it. It will still be working on whatever Mac or PC they are selling 5 years from now. Look ma, no processor time needed, no upgrades to pay. We don't need no stinking Waves upgrade plan;)

So I may be the minority post here on this particular thread, but to the person who originally asked, people DO use hardware reverbs and effects all the time. They cost more so not as many people use them, and aren't as convenient (really hard to get 20 instances, but I don't need 20 reverbs on a mix)...... but they are definitely not gathering dust.


TH

[Bruce A. Richardson]

The difference in a Lexicon "anything" versus software reverb lies in the audacity of the Lexicon sound designers. They adhere to the "sounds good is good" rule. Software reverb, like so many things in software, has reached that uncomfortable pimply adolescent stage, where everything is about being real, and not about just sounding cool.

We like things that sound cool. The sooner everyone comes to grips with the fact that ear candy is ear candy (and that what we ALL like is ear candy), the sooner the medium advances.

I feel that music technology is really stuck right now. We have been advancing so far that every evolution is a start-over point for the little realism game. Realism, shmealism. If I wanted a relationship with reality, why the hell would I have chosen to be an artist?

[Nick Batzdorf]

Altiverb isn't worth the processor time on a dense pop mix? Not even if it's running a sample of a Lexicon?

[FredProgGH]

Oooooooo-kay. I can see people getting misty eyed and weepy for various types of analog outboard stuff but reverb isn't one of them. What, do you think your old REV-7 has an variable inter-dimensional space inside of it with a little microphone?? It's a processor running a software algorithm. Just like- a plugin!! Unless someone has a real hard-on for spring reverb I don't get this one. Sure, some standalone high end verbs may have more processing power under the hood but that's your fault for having a slow pc, not the reverb. The verb built into the Roland VS machines sounds like any Roland reverb. The soft Lexicon stuff to me sounds like a Lexicon. Gigapulse sounds like whatever it's emulating.

[tomhartman]

Altiverb isn't worth the processor time on a dense pop mix? Not even if it's running a sample of a Lexicon?

Yikes, ESPECIALLY if it's running a Lex sample;)



TH

[tomhartman]

Oooooooo-kay. I can see people getting misty eyed and weepy for various types of analog outboard stuff but reverb isn't one of them. What, do you think your old REV-7 has an variable inter-dimensional space inside of it with a little microphone?? It's a processor running a software algorithm. Just like- a plugin!! Unless someone has a real hard-on for spring reverb I don't get this one. Sure, some standalone high end verbs may have more processing power under the hood but that's your fault for having a slow pc, not the reverb. The verb built into the Roland VS machines sounds like any Roland reverb. The soft Lexicon stuff to me sounds like a Lexicon. Gigapulse sounds like whatever it's emulating.

Gee I'm slow tonight, I don't even understand this post. Something about I need a faster computer;)


Bottom line....can't hear the difference? Lucky for you...you are about to save a ton of bread.

TH

[tomhartman]

The difference in a Lexicon "anything" versus software reverb lies in the audacity of the Lexicon sound designers. They adhere to the "sounds good is good" rule. Software reverb, like so many things in software, has reached that uncomfortable pimply adolescent stage, where everything is about being real, and not about just sounding cool.

We like things that sound cool. The sooner everyone comes to grips with the fact that ear candy is ear candy (and that what we ALL like is ear candy), the sooner the medium advances.

I feel that music technology is really stuck right now. We have been advancing so far that every evolution is a start-over point for the little realism game. Realism, shmealism. If I wanted a relationship with reality, why the hell would I have chosen to be an artist?


As usual, couldn't agree with you more Bruce.

I don't use plug in guitar amps either, moving little pictures of microphones closer to little pictures of speakers;)

TH

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Tom has a perfectly good point. Even a top shelf convolver can't run a Lexicon sound--not really. You can't do all that shimmery modulation that makes those classic sounds come alive. Convolution doesn't do that, nor does it do distortion. It inherently can't (at least not distortion that is musically useful). So, there are many of the best sounding effects in the reverb class that convolvers can never pull off. Nobody has gotten really hot under the collar to do a great software reverb that is a purely ear-candy verb. Ironically enough, one of the better sounding ones I've heard is the one that shipped with the last Reaktor update. It's not ultra snazzy in terms of sheer depth, but it shimmers like crazy.

All we ever want is that shimmer, whether we are capable of admitting our sonic trailer trashiness or not.

Convolvers do emulate plates very well, though. and that is one of the most delightful uses for them as far as I am concerned. I like some real-space reverb, but mostly, real-space reverb is more useful to me as a sound design tool than as a music mixing tool. I keep trying to love straight convolution, but it just doesn't flip my switch. I like it messed up a bit.

All that said, I don't hook up any of my hardware reverbs any more. I guess I'm getting too old and crusty. I still have my little SRV-330 in my live rack. I have not seen any software reverbs with nearly that level of automation and control, although I don't use it that way any more. I just have a very nice reverb sound on my horns :)

B.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I don't use plug in guitar amps either, moving little pictures of microphones closer to little pictures of speakers;)


You'll be appalled to know I just got a Pod XT Live, haha.....and I'm not even a guitar player.

[FredProgGH]

As usual, couldn't agree with you more Bruce.

I don't use plug in guitar amps either, moving little pictures of microphones closer to little pictures of speakers;)

TH


OK, I'll put it anothir way. What is it that you think happens inside your outboard digital reverb that is different from what happens on a reverb running on a pc. Let's say, Waves Trueverb. :)

[Bruce A. Richardson]

OK, I'll put it anothir way. What is it that you think happens inside your outboard digital reverb that is different from what happens on a reverb running on a pc. Let's say, Waves Trueverb. :)

A lot more processing. There is a lot more going on in a Roland SRV-330 than a TrueVerb.

[FredProgGH]

Yeah, but that's just brute force. There's nothing inherently inferior about Trueverb (or whatever) if you were to give it the processing power it needs to compete.

[tomhartman]

OK, I'll put it anothir way. What is it that you think happens inside your outboard digital reverb that is different from what happens on a reverb running on a pc. Let's say, Waves Trueverb. :)


"What's the secret of your success?"

"I haven't the faintest idea. If we knew that we'd get another group and we'd all be managers."

--The Beatles, NY Press Conference, 1964


It doesn't really matter to me that on paper it's just a processor, etc, etc. I can only go by what I hear, and I haven't heard a software reverb do the big lush thing the outboard guys do in their sleep. Small rooms and ambience, yes, and I would use plugs for those kind of things, or if I somehow needed the ambience of an airplane cockpit. But not the big stuff.
Not this year, anyway.

And again, I'm just tired of the software trap.

TH

[tomhartman]

You'll be appalled to know I just got a Pod XT Live, haha.....and I'm not even a guitar player.

Oh, the horror! ;)

Hey how is that learning guitar thing going? Weren't you teaching yourself awhile back?



TH

[FredProgGH]

Curious why you picked Waves Trueverb as an example. It's an old, antique piece of software, with an awful sound. I think Waves only keeps it going so they have another thing to throw in their bundles to make it look like you're getting a lot of stuff. The only thing I liked about Trueverb was the control for placement of the listening position.

There are a number of good high-end reverb plug-ins for PT HD that have the requisite chorusing, etc. I like Digidesign ReVibe a lot. Eventide, TC Electronics and Sony Oxford also have some nice synth verb plug-ins for PT HD. I haven't investigated any of them, but there have to be some better synth verbs available for purely native use.

Lee Blaske
It just came into my head first... I wasn't holding it up as any kind of example for what revebs should aspire to be, for sure...

[jrjnsn]

We like things that sound cool. The sooner everyone comes to grips with the fact that ear candy is ear candy (and that what we ALL like is ear candy), the sooner the medium advances.


I don't care too much about music. What I like is sounds.
Dizzy Gillespie (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/dizzygille270323.html)

[Nick Batzdorf]

Even a top shelf convolver can't run a Lexicon sound--not really. You can't do all that shimmery modulation that makes those classic sounds come alive. Convolution doesn't do that, nor does it do distortion.

Chorus the tail.

Seriously, Lexicons are great. They have a nice thick plate sound that's great on drums and vox, among other things. I'm only reacting to the way this thread is posed: you're a total AH who can't hear if you use [pick one: hardware/plug-ins].

Nonetheless, I did sell two NuVerb cards after not using them for a long time.

And I should add that processing power is not an issue for Altiverbs on a G5.

[alanb]

er... "AH = "analog head" ???

[dwdonehoo]

Interesting discussion. I use six outboard reverbs and a host of plug-ins. All this gives me a lot of flex in depth and placement. A true stereo Master reverb is important in many cases. I guess you could say I believe in a lot of subtle layers of reverb to create an interesting sound. Realism takes second place to "sounds good".

[Jibrish]

er... "AH = "analog head" ???Must be... Gorillas are vegetarians you know.

[tomhartman]

Chorus the tail.



And I should add that processing power is not an issue for Altiverbs on a G5.


Nick, c'mon, of course it's an issue. Everything is an issue when you are native. It obvously depends on what other stuff you are using, and how many tracks you have. Reverbs are notorious for hogging CPU time....

And to be fair no one, at least not I, intended to cast doubt on the sanity of anyone who likes plug in anything. I just personally prefer hardware over any kind of plug in, good as many of them may be, as I said, not just for sonics alone, but for the ice cube factor.

TH

[Joris de Man]

It seems that some people here don't understand some of the subtelties that go on in reverbs from Lexicon and for instance Roland (and apologies if that sounds condecending, I'm not trying to be:P)

Convolution based reverb is basically a snapshot reverb. It works best on spaces that are non-changing, such as real life halls and other acoustic spaces.

Artificial reverbs are usually based around a number of delaylines, which accumulate over time and become so dense it becomes a reverb tail.
To keep them from sounding stale and resonate to a certain frequency (an effect you can somewhat simulate by taking a regular delay with really short delaytimes and the feedback turned up high) usually a form of modulation is used.
Extreme modulation will add a kind of chorussing effect to the delay, but added in small doses it will make the reverb tail sound more alive and vibrant.
I think Lexicons add some form of randomisation to the modulation as well.

Convolution can't capture this, as it only captures one snapshot, or moment as you will, of that reverb tail.
In order to capture it, multiple samples would be needed, in similar vain to sampling multiple staccato notes of say a violin in order to negate the machine gun effect.

Lexicon's have custom dsp chips programmed specifically for reverb. There are a lot of parameters, some of them invisible to the user, that are being modified as the reverb is generated. It is why the sound the way they do.

Personally, I've found convolution reverbs perfect for real spaces, but when I needed a classic reverb sound (say gated ambient drums, or long, shimmering tails) I'll always go for an outboard srv-330 or a plugin.
Speaking of which, I recently tried the R66 from sonic flavours which sounds remarkebly close to a medium end Lexicon.

Anyhoo..don't discount software reverbs; I still find myself sometimes using digi's D-verb for some nice 'infinite' reverb effects !:)

Joe

[RickD]

Chorus the tail.

.....

I have Altiverb and i've experimented with chorusing the tail. The problem for me is that either the chorus plugin that comes with DP isn't very good, or I'm absolutely clueless. So if you'd care to share in detail how to do it, and maybe recommend a good AU chorus, I'm all ears. :)

[howardv]

Convolution based reverb is basically a snapshot reverb. It works best on spaces that are non-changing, such as real life halls and other acoustic spaces. It's my understanding that the next generation of convolution processors will have multiple IR and timeline features for morphing from one IR to another. With present implementations, the only way to deal with spaces or sources in motion is to render and automate crossfades between multiple tracks in a daw... at least that's the only way I've come up with to do it.

Howard

[mts]

My studio has diminished in scale and increased in power faster than I can flex my credit card... but I refuse to let go of 3 pieces of hardware - mic pre, tube eq and lexicon reverb. The first mix I did exclusively with 'plugins' was sonically brilliant but had no 'soul'. I love the convenience and the sheer amount of processing I'm able to achieve... but I still think all plugins that emulate hardware are still 'reasonable facsimiles'. I liken the task of creating a 'true' simulation to that of creating an animated CG human that we actually believe is real (think Tom Hanks in Polar Express).

mts

[Ouch that hurts]

If I wanted a relationship with reality, why the hell would I have chosen to be an artist?

To get laid of course.