Lesson 8 Discussion - Melody in the Brass

[Garritan]

This thread is to discuss Lesson 8 which covers melody in the brass instruments. We wil also discuss brass melody in unison, in octaves, thirds and sixths.

Rimsky-Korsakov seemed to use brass mostly as a texture and for color, and rarely as melodic content. The book even states about brass: "not a wide range of expression". Since the rise of jazz, film music and pop, brass has taken a more prominent and important role.

Feel free to ask questions or elaborate on the material presented in this lesson.

Gary Garritan

[karelm]

Hello Professor Belkin.

Can you please clarify this comment on Lesson 8. Why do you consider horns used as bass to be a beginner's mistake? Do you mean if it is overused?

4. Professor Belkin Comments: An important point: the horn’s main melodic role is as an alto/tenor instrument, NOT as a soprano or a bass (very common beginner’s mistakes).

There are many, many great examples where horns were used in bass and it is an altogether different (and useful) timbre for the instruments. I consider for all the brass that they have the greatest difference in tonal character depending on where they play in their ranges and the effect desired by the composer would dictate if they should play high or low in their register. I would like to better understand your comment.

Also - note to Garritan, the links on step 1 of the GPO Exercise - Melody in the Brass: Thirds & Sixths Exercise appear to be broken.

Thanks,
Karim

[Garritan]

Also - note to Garritan, the links on step 1 of the GPO Exercise - Melody in the Brass: Thirds & Sixths Exercise appear to be broken.
Karim,

Thanks for pointing this out. The links are now fixed.

Gary Garritan

[belkina]

Horns are mainly useful as long, pedal notes in *static* bass lines. When the bass line gets more mobile, horns are rather sluggish and heavy (because they have a such a strong fundamental). You will usually get better results using bassoons, trombone, or the tuba as the bass, depending on what is above.

Beginners often look at the horn's textbook range and think of it as a bass instrument. However a close look at scores in the standard repertoire shows that the lower the horns are pitched, the heavier the sound (again, excluding static, pedal notes, where they can play softer than, say, bassoons).

Personal experience: I once wrote a passage with horns used in the low tenor range and was getting very frustrated with the rather muddy sound. Finally I just removed the 4th (lowest) horn, and suddenly all was clear.

I hope this helps.

Hello Professor Belkin.

Can you please clarify this comment on Lesson 8. Why do you consider horns used as bass to be a beginner's mistake? Do you mean if it is overused?

4. Professor Belkin Comments: An important point: the horn’s main melodic role is as an alto/tenor instrument, NOT as a soprano or a bass (very common beginner’s mistakes).

There are many, many great examples where horns were used in bass and it is an altogether different (and useful) timbre for the instruments. I consider for all the brass that they have the greatest difference in tonal character depending on where they play in their ranges and the effect desired by the composer would dictate if they should play high or low in their register. I would like to better understand your comment.

Also - note to Garritan, the links on step 1 of the GPO Exercise - Melody in the Brass: Thirds & Sixths Exercise appear to be broken.

Thanks,
Karim

[KeithW]

Horns are mainly useful as long, pedal notes in *static* bass lines. When the bass line gets more mobile, horns are rather sluggish and heavy (because they have a such a strong fundamental). You will usually get better results using bassoons, trombone, or the tuba as the bass, depending on what is above.

Beginners often look at the horn's textbook range and think of it as a bass instrument. However a close look at scores in the standard repertoire shows that the lower the horns are pitched, the heavier the sound (again, excluding static, pedal notes, where they can play softer than, say, bassoons).

Professor, is there an "official" range in SATB parlance- I've never taken any voice classes and was wondering?

I found these- do you agree?
(where a1= A440)
Soprano 1= d1-g2
Soprano 2= c1-f2
Alto = a0-d2
Tenor = c0-g1
Baritone = Bb-e1
Bass = F-d0

Thanks

[belkina]

These are ok, but voices, more than ANY other instrument, are not standard, for obvious reasons. Also be aware that choral voices are always more limited in range than solo voices; the latter come in endless varieties. Often singers themselves take years to find their "best" range. The ranges you posted are safe choral standards, but even there you will often find differences of a tone or two in the reportoire. (And remember that a-440 is a MODERN standard.)

Professor, is there an "official" range in SATB parlance- I've never taken any voice classes and was wondering?

I found these- do you agree?
(where a1= A440)
Soprano 1= d1-g2
Soprano 2= c1-f2
Alto = a0-d2
Tenor = c0-g1
Baritone = Bb-e1
Bass = F-d0

Thanks

[KeithW]

4. Professor Belkin Comments: An important point: the horn’s main melodic role is as an alto/tenor instrument, NOT as a soprano or a bass (very common beginner’s mistakes).


"Tessitura is an important consideration in writing for the horn. The upper register (from c2 to c3) should be used sparingly and for dramatic effects only. Guard against the tendency of many beginning orchestrators to write too high for the horns. The instrument should be thought of as an alto or tenor (rather than soprano) instrument.

- Gary White Instrumental Arranging p. 78. (1992)

[KeithW]

Would it be fair to use the following analogy? (for melodic music)

Trumpet- Alto/Soprano
Horn (in F)- Tenor/Alto
Euphonium- Baritone/Tenor
Tuba- Bass/Baritone
Tenor Trombone -Baritone/Tenor
Bass Trombone - Bass/Baritone

Keith Walls

[belkina]

Yes, that is good. In dealing with instrumental families, even though the analogy is not perfect, it is a good point of departure to think in terms of a vocal choir.

Would it be fair to use the following analogy? (for melodic music)

Trumpet- Alto/Soprano
Horn (in F)- Tenor/Alto
Euphonium- Baritone/Tenor
Tuba- Bass/Baritone
Tenor Trombone -Baritone/Tenor
Bass Trombone - Bass/Baritone

Keith Walls

[belkina]

One detail: I'd take issue with starting the upper register at middle C. You will be fine up to around G a fifth above that, from there on it sounds more and more strained. The effect can be desirable sometimes, but be aware that high brass notes (and these are getting high for a horn) will sound much higher (=intense, strained) than they look on the page!

"Tessitura is an important consideration in writing for the horn. The upper register (from c2 to c3) should be used sparingly and for dramatic effects only. Guard against the tendency of many beginning orchestrators to write too high for the horns. The instrument should be thought of as an alto or tenor (rather than soprano) instrument.

- Gary White Instrumental Arranging p. 78. (1992)

[Ron St. Germain]

Just a thought. It would be nice to have the same examples also posted in concert. The vertical arrangement of the horns would be more readily apparent as would the other transposing instruments. I noticed books such as Mancini's Scores and Sounds publish the examples in concert, making each example easier to study. I think horns can be particularly disceptive in that the printed arrangement is very different from the sounding arrangement. Transposition is perfect for performance but since this a learning forum, concert is particularly important to make the vertical arrangements clear. Again, just a thought.

[KeithW]

Just a thought. It would be nice to have the same examples also posted in concert. The vertical arrangement of the horns would be more readily apparent as would the other transposing instruments. I noticed books such as Mancini's Scores and Sounds publish the examples in concert, making each example easier to study. I think horns can be particularly disceptive in that the printed arrangement is very different from the sounding arrangement. Transposition is perfect for performance but since this a learning forum, concert is particularly important to make the vertical arrangements clear. Again, just a thought.
Great suggestion! See the "Chord Reductions" thread for something very similar. Sometimes it's a lot easier to understand what's going on with everything in one set of staves.

Keith Wals

[aLfR3dd]

hi,
we often see horns sustain a melody......but sometimes trombones and tuba sustain it too (with horns also) ....for which reason? tnx

[snorlax]

Horns are mainly useful as long, pedal notes in *static* bass lines. When the bass line gets more mobile, horns are rather sluggish and heavy (because they have a such a strong fundamental). You will usually get better results using bassoons, trombone, or the tuba as the bass, depending on what is above.

Beginners often look at the horn's textbook range and think of it as a bass instrument. However a close look at scores in the standard repertoire shows that the lower the horns are pitched, the heavier the sound (again, excluding static, pedal notes, where they can play softer than, say, bassoons).

Personal experience: I once wrote a passage with horns used in the low tenor range and was getting very frustrated with the rather muddy sound. Finally I just removed the 4th (lowest) horn, and suddenly all was clear.

I hope this helps.

As always, Prof. Belkin is spot-on--let me add $0.02 here. One of the oddities of the french horn is that is is played mostly on its upper partials. That's why notes are so close together on the horn and why it is so easy to "frack" on it unless the player hears the pitch first.
What does that mean?
If you uncoil a horn, you will discover that it is the same length of tubing as a TUBA IN F(!!) but much narrower and with an entirely different flair, especially at the bell. To produce a high note on the horn, say from the the C above middle C (written G) on up, the hornist is way up on the instrument's overtone series. A tiny mis-setting of an embouchure can therfore lead to a fracked note.

This is also why horn is good, as Alan indicates, for a STATIC bass...the pedal range of the horn is rich and can be played softly. It can be a thin tuba of sorts and a nice bass to the woodwinds, as a substitute or complement to the bassoon as required.

This is also why--ironically--some lower notes sound better on the Bb (higher) side of the horn than on the F side--they are pedals on the Bb side and speak with more authority/clarity.

That low tenor range of which Alan speaks is the least appealing range of the horn in ensemble writing. It is indeed thick & sluggish.
SHAMELESS COMMERCIAL: That low tenor range is nice and clear on a euphonium. Too bad nobody uses 'em in orchestras.

So, if you want to know why the horn is more prone to fracking than other brass and why horn players are so neurotic, the answer lies in the physics of the instrument.;)

[snorlax]

"Tessitura is an important consideration in writing for the horn. The upper register (from c2 to c3) should be used sparingly and for dramatic effects only. Guard against the tendency of many beginning orchestrators to write too high for the horns. The instrument should be thought of as an alto or tenor (rather than soprano) instrument.

- Gary White Instrumental Arranging p. 78. (1992)

Keith--

See my reply elsewhere in this thread about where the horn plays on its overtone series. That's why the high register starting above the C one octave above Middle C (above written G on top of the treble staff, transposed) should be written with caution. That written G to the C above it should be reserved for better players--college or pro or excellent amateur. Casual or hobby players ought to stop at the written G. Also see "general advice for brass" in this thread.

Jim

[snorlax]

hi,
we often see horns sustain a melody......but sometimes trombones and tuba sustain it too (with horns also) ....for which reason? tnx

For the same reason a baritone or bass singer might sing an aria or be part of a quartet!;)

Using tenor/baritone/bass for a melody can add some relief/contrast from a steady diet of melody in the treble/soprano range. The same texture can become monotonous after too long

Please, composers, do not underestimate the agility of the tuba when the music calls for agile bass. One of my favorite tuba parts in orch. is throughout Hindemith's Symphonic Metamorphoses. It is prominent, low, surprisingly nimble, and kinda jazzy if played well. That's why it's on almost every tuba audition for major orchestras. Same for Prokofiev 5th (well, it doesn't swing). Check 'em out!
Jim

[belkina]

Snor has a good point. I never fail to be amazed at how agile the tuba is; it somehow never occurs to people to think of it that way. The tuba makes an excellent bass, for horns alone, and also for other brass, and is faster to speak than the horn is, at least down in the nether regions. The main thing to be careful of when writing for tuba is not to go too high, unless you are writing a solo for a good player.

Oh yes, one other thing: the tuba takes LOTS of air, if you write slow legato phrases, especially low, don't be surprised to see the tuba player taking a breath every note or two! Which brings me to a question for Snorlax: when you see those long notes, in the low bass, in some tuba parts (e.g. Richard Strauss, 7 bars of 4/4, on low G, at half note = 84), I take it the player comes up for air as required, even if it means repeating the note?



Please, composers, do not underestimate the agility of the tuba when the music calls for agile bass. One of my favorite tuba parts in orch. is throughout Hindemith's Symphonic Metamorphoses. It is prominent, low, surprisingly nimble, and kinda jazzy if played well. That's why it's on almost every tuba audition for major orchestras. Same for Prokofiev 5th (well, it doesn't swing). Check 'em out!
Jim

[snorlax]

Great suggestion! See the "Chord Reductions" thread for something very similar. Sometimes it's a lot easier to understand what's going on with everything in one set of staves.

Keith Wals

Here's another look at the issue: For Brass, transposed scores/parts are nice because they are pretty standardized in that written above the staff starts to=high, and written below G under middle C=low. In fact, in some cases, the F# below that G is the BOTTOM of the brass instrument. So if a conductor sees the C on line 2 above the staff in a Bb trumpet or F horn part, that suggests not only a pitch but a timbre or tone quality or a degree of prominence in that part that a concert pitch score may not indicate.

So it's probably a good investment of time to at least be familiar--if not facile--with the transpositions and the info they can convey to the conductor/score reader, let alone the performer:) If you are preparing scores on software, you can let IT do the transpositions, but make sure that ranges are reasonable.

Jim

[snorlax]

GENERAL BRASS ADVICE:
This advice comes from the perspective of a player who has sat in orchestras on tuba and in bands on euphonium since the Crimean War. While I don't play in orchestras anymore, the advice still holds:|: .

1. REST IS NEEDED:Please avoid long stretches of horn-on-face time, ESPECIALLY in the upper registers. While I may get some flak from woodwind players on this, I'd say that fatigue is most critical for brass players. Don't burn us out--mix it up!!

1a. BREATH IS NEEDED:and the lower the instrument, the more true that is. Leave the endless strings of running 16ths over 8-12 measures to a cello.:) I need to breathe.

2.VARIETY IS NEEDED: As much as I love brass, variety of timbre and range builds interest. Learn how the brass sound open, muted with various types of mute, stopped horn, etc. Make sure that brass-dominant passages alternate with wind- or string-based passages for variety of tonal color.
One of the sternest challenges of writing for brass choir or brass band is to gain a variety of tonal color from the essentially homogeneous ensemble. In the orchestra, we have the winds, strings, and perc. to break things up.

3.IT AIN'T JUST A NOTE--IT'S A TONE COLOR AS WELL: ALL brass instruments can play middle C. On a trumpet, it's gonna sound comparatively small and sound like it's near the the bottom of the instrument. On a CC or BBb tuba, it's gonna be somewhat prominent and sound like it's on the top of the instrument. On a trombone or horn, it's gonna be in the comfy middle, with a wide possible dynamic range. What sound do you want it to have???

3a.IT AIN'T JUST THE RANGE--IT'S A TONE COLOR AS WELL: The higher a brass instrument plays, the brighter its tone color becomes and the more relatively prominent it becomes. The lower it goes, the relatively less agile it becomes because more fingers and longer tubing are involved. It is difficult (but not necessarily impossible) to play quietly in the extreme upper register of a brass instrument. One usual convention is to write high brass parts at absolute climax points in the music, where loudness and range are being used to create the excitement of the passage. Writers for band especially should be wary of writing trumpet parts that are too high for too long. Remember that you have flutes and clarinets!

Overuse of extreme brass ranges also removes the element of surprise/variety that the extreme ranges can offer so well. It will also get the players tired, if not PO'd.
Trumpet players moan about all them high Cs in Fast Machine, etc. I'm not nuts about the 21 or so consecutive high Bs in the tenor tuba part in Janacek's Sinfonietta, for that matter, either.

Each brass instrument has a "cash register" for which the instrument is famous. If you venture above or below the "cash register" KNOW that you are doing it and have a reason to do so. Just because the brass CAN do something doesn't mean they SHOULD all the time. Keep something in reserve!!

4.CONES AND CYLINDERS: While all brass can be powerful, trumpets and trombones are cylinders and can be extremely pungent. The bass trombone and the bass drum are #1 and #2 (I forget which order) in sheer decibel power among orchestral instruments. Tuba, tenor tuba (euphonium), and horn are conical and may not pierce as much the trumpet and trombone can, but can still be powerful in their own conical way.

5. PICK OFF A SCREAMER HIGH F#??? I'd rather not. One hard thing for brass to do is to enter on a screamingly high note out of nowhere. A player will look at a score or listen around to get a reference pitch if (s)he has to enter on a screamer. The less tonal the music is, the harder it is to pick off the pitch out of thin air. People in the major orchestras can pick anything out of anything, but why invite calamity unless the music calls for that note in that context or you are writing for the NY Phil?? Approach that screamer as part of a broken chord or scale if the music will permit OR put a cue in the trumpet part that shows the player where to listen for a reference pitch.

6. HORIZONTAL, VERTICAL, OR DIAGONAL??As agile as brasses are, they are not woodwinds. "Vertical" passages such as 3 measures of 2-octave arpeggios or dim7 chords at very fast tempos are more difficult on brass, especially trombone. Scalar passages come much more easily to brass. Chordal passages are OK at medium-fast tempos. As above, if you can approach a screamer note by a chord or scale, by all means do so if the music allows for it.

That's all for now--hope this helps--more as it occurs to me. Now I need to practice.

Jim

[Jeannot Welter]

Oh yes, one other thing: the tuba takes LOTS of air, if you write slow legato phrases, especially low, don't be surprised to see the tuba player taking a breath every note or two! Which brings me to a question for Snorlax: when you see those long notes, in the low bass, in some tuba parts (e.g. Richard Strauss, 7 bars of 4/4, on low G, at half note = 84), I take it the player comes up for air as required, even if it means repeating the note?

Circular breathing would help....

Jeannot Welter.

[snorlax]

Oh yes, one other thing: the tuba takes LOTS of air, if you write slow legato phrases, especially low, don't be surprised to see the tuba player taking a breath every note or two! Which brings me to a question for Snorlax: when you see those long notes, in the low bass, in some tuba parts (e.g. Richard Strauss, 7 bars of 4/4, on low G, at half note = 84), I take it the player comes up for air as required, even if it means repeating the note?

A sniff-breath will result in minimal interruption of the note if necessary...even worse is the bit with all those tied E-flats way below the staff in Rheingold. I never did that one.

Very few players can circular breathe, unfortunately, Jeannot:(

Sometimes if the bass trombone isn't playing and the tuba has a long held note, the tubist & bass trombonist agree where the tuba will sneak a sniff, and the btrb will enter a tad before the tubist's breath,cover for that split second, and sneak out a tad after. Virtually seamless.

Which brings rise to another point: Yesterday's low brass (tubas & trombones) were much smaller than today's, so the low G tuba passage might have been negotiable on the tuba of that day--simply not as much horn to fill compared to today's 6/4 tubas that are now all the rage. Nothing, though, can get those 7 zillion bars of low e-flat...
Jim

[KeithW]

Here's another look at the issue: For Brass, transposed scores/parts are nice because they are pretty standardized in that written above the staff starts to=high, and written below G under middle C=low. In fact, in some cases, the F# below that G is the BOTTOM of the brass instrument. So if a conductor sees the C on line 2 above the staff in a Bb trumpet or F horn part, that suggests not only a pitch but a timbre or tone quality or a degree of prominence in that part that a concert pitch score may not indicate.

So it's probably a good investment of time to at least be familiar--if not facile--with the transpositions and the info they can convey to the conductor/score reader, let alone the performer:) If you are preparing scores on software, you can let IT do the transpositions, but make sure that ranges are reasonable.

Jim Jim,

I agree completely. We should all be able to read scores (esp. transposed ones.) My point in the post about Reductions is that it makes it a little easier to figure out what is going on with the entire orchestra, especially when doing listening exercises with courses like this one. It also makes it easier to play the piano (reduction) without having to put it into a sequencing/notation program.

Keith Walls

[garymosse]

After years of reading scores with transposed parts, I can hear and deal with transposed parts more easily than scores in concert pitch. Thinking about how a clarinet sounds on a low G or a 5th line F is different from seeing an F or Eb.
Horns and English horns are more difficult to hear, especially since
Finale still does not play the true pitch when you enter a note.
If I have a long segment to write in F with lots of intervals, sharps/flats; I write it in Eb where I can think of the notes in bass clef. Then I transpose the part.

[Ron St. Germain]

I think Keith W has an excellent point. I too can transpose instruments in my head but it is much easier to study an arrangement if it is in concert pitch. As I said before, what appears to be a wide spacing in the french horns can actually be a closed voicing, or two unisons doubled.

[Aeterna]

Okay, I'm a tad bit confused. Exactly how common is it for trumpets to read in concert pitch? I'd never actually heard of that before. Might it be because I've been playing in bands all my life and it's different between bands and orchestras?

[snorlax]

Okay, I'm a tad bit confused. Exactly how common is it for trumpets to read in concert pitch? I'd never actually heard of that before. Might it be because I've been playing in bands all my life and it's different between bands and orchestras?

Hi...the more-or-less standard orchestral trumpet is pitched in C and reads at pitch. Additionally, orchestral trumpeters are well-versed at transposition, so it makes very little difference to the player if the part is written in Bb transposition and they play it on C trumpet or vice versa.

Most band parts are for Bb trumpet, and most band players play Bb. I have sat in bands, however, where trained trumpet players will play the Bb parts on C trumpet.

In short, transposition is a way of life for trumpet players in orchestras.
I made a point of learning to read the F transposition so I can do horn music on euphonium. REally opens up possibilities!!
Jim

[Aeterna]

Hi...the more-or-less standard orchestral trumpet is pitched in C and reads at pitch. Additionally, orchestral trumpeters are well-versed at transposition, so it makes very little difference to the player if the part is written in Bb transposition and they play it on C trumpet or vice versa.

Most band parts are for Bb trumpet, and most band players play Bb. I have sat in bands, however, where trained trumpet players will play the Bb parts on C trumpet.

In short, transposition is a way of life for trumpet players in orchestras.
I made a point of learning to read the F transposition so I can do horn music on euphonium. REally opens up possibilities!!
Jim

Thanks, that was really helpful! :D I'll be sure to keep it in mind.

[benhillyard]

Hi,
a quick question about tubas - what's the lowest note that it's safe to write and know that a tuba player will be able to play it on their instrument? I've been trying to look it up and got quite bamboozled by the differences between American and European standards and the plethora of C, Bb, Eb, F, CC, BBb and FFF tubas around (I may have made that last one up).

Cheers,
Ben

[snorlax]

Hi,
a quick question about tubas - what's the lowest note that it's safe to write and know that a tuba player will be able to play it on their instrument? I've been trying to look it up and got quite bamboozled by the differences between American and European standards and the plethora of C, Bb, Eb, F, CC, BBb and FFF tubas around (I may have made that last one up).

Cheers,
Ben

Hi, Ben...

Write the note you want and let the player choose the proper instrument. But keep in mind that extreme registers are exactly that: extreme. As I have said in other contexts, it depends on the sound you want.

The choice of tuba a performer makes is a function of much more that just "what note is it?"

It can be a function of context: If the note is in a tutti ff with trombones and basses in Wagner, that argues for a bigger tuba, whereas a lighter context argues for a smaller tuba. Note also that there are "small" and "large" tubas in EVERY key (BBb, CC, Eb, F)

It can be a choice of agreement between section mates: Some trombone sections prefer a smaller tuba, others blend better with the larger instruments.

It depends, of course, on the player...what sound concept does (s)he have?

It can depend on texture--what is the tuba part surrounded with?

It can depend on the conductor...what is his/her sound concept?

So...write what you want and let the tuba player choose the instrument. But remember that extreme ranges are extreme. Below Eb (4 lines below bass staff) is usually extreme and requires a large volume of air. Sitting at or above middle C for protracted periods is also extreme and makes the tuba a faux trombone or horn. Individual passages can and often do ascend up to F and higher above middle C...these are GENERAL guidelines for ORCHESTRA playing. Other rules apply for soloing.

See my post on tuba that I'm gonna write after I'm done here:D

Jim

[snorlax]

TUBA NOTES:
A composer just asked a very legitimate question about what tuba to use for what range. Unfortunately, the answer to that question is not easy, and I explained some of the parameters to the questioner in a posting here.

Here's a little more about the tuba that may give composers some insight into how to write for it.

1. The tuba is the YOUNGEST instrument in the orchestra, dating from some non-descript and debatable time between the 1830s and 1850s. As such, it has not yet fully matured. Additionally, as manufacturing technology advances, more options become open for the manufacturer, and hence the player.

2. There are more FORMS of tuba than any other instrument in the orchestra:
*KEY--BBb, CC, Eb, F (plus the occasional oddity in D and G)

*NUMBER OF VALVES: 3, 4, 5, 6

*TYPE OF VALVES: Pistons or rotors

*LOCATION OF VALVES: Top? Front? Thumb 5th? RH 5th (6th)?, 3+1?

*BORE SIZE: Large (6/4 or 5/4), Medium (4/4), or Small (3/4)? (Bore
refers to the DIAMETER of the tubing at critical location)

*COMPENSATION: Yes or no?

*TUBING WRAP: Open wrap-long bell or "piggy" configuration
w/tighter wrap?

All these factors have a real and/or perceived effect on the sound of the instrument.

It is POSSIBLE to have a large bore 6/4 F tuba that is physically bigger than a 3/4 bore CC tuba that is actually pitched a fourth lower. Some people play ONLY rotors, others swear by pistons. Compensated instruments are more common in the UK, less frequent here.
The "standard" orchestral tuba is in CC, but some few americans--but many europeans--use BBb. Americans and most Europeans lean towards F, except in the UK, where Eb is more popular than in the rest of Europe or here.

As to notes: Sometimes it may be easier to play a "lower" note on a "Higher" instrument. A low Eb (4-line below) may sound better on an Eb tuba, where it is an open pedal note, vs. a CC tuba, where it requires several valves and may not "speak" as well, etc. etc...

Keep in mind that I am generalizing...the odd exception is, of course, always present.

So the moral of the story is: Write what you want the player to play, realize that extremes are extreme and treat them that way, and trust the performer to choose the proper instrument.

Jim

[benhillyard]

Hi Jim,
thanks very much for taking the time to reply so thouroughly; that's really cleared up my confusion. :)

Ben

[qccowboy]

this tuba discussion is VERY interesting...
we, as composers, sometimes feel that we are "under-using" an instrument - having the musician sit there for pages on end without uttering a sound. This, of course, pushes us to add notes wherever we can fit them in (including places where they just do NOT fit).

My favourite tuba solo is by John Corigliano - from the Promenade Overture. Anyone who's had the pleasure of seeing this piece in concert will understand why.

Obviously, studying tuba repertoire, particularly audition material, is not going to push us to writing good tuba music... just really HARD tuba music!

Can someone recommend some relatively recent (ie: 20th century) pieces where the tuba parts are particularly felicitous? not solos, not band music, but good old normal orchestral playing that is well balanced and not inhumanly demanding of the musician.

[snorlax]

this tuba discussion is VERY interesting...
we, as composers, sometimes feel that we are "under-using" an instrument - having the musician sit there for pages on end without uttering a sound. This, of course, pushes us to add notes wherever we can fit them in (including places where they just do NOT fit).

My favourite tuba solo is by John Corigliano - from the Promenade Overture. Anyone who's had the pleasure of seeing this piece in concert will understand why.

Obviously, studying tuba repertoire, particularly audition material, is not going to push us to writing good tuba music... just really HARD tuba music!

Can someone recommend some relatively recent (ie: 20th century) pieces where the tuba parts are particularly felicitous? not solos, not band music, but good old normal orchestral playing that is well balanced and not inhumanly demanding of the musician.

Hi...
A few quickies before I run off to church...

Hindemith, Symphonic Metamorphoses
Tchaik 4,5,6
Bruckner/Mahler-various
Revueltas, Sensemaya (solo tuba @ beginning)
Shostakovich 10
Prokofiev 5

More later...Jim

[ALynn]

Re: long held notes on tuba, etc.

An important consideration is that the horn, owing to its narrower bore, has a lot of back pressure, allowing horn players to hold pitches for much longer than most other brass (or woodwind) instruments - we often must let air OUT during some slower sustained passages or risk our heads exploding. :eek:

So rather than making that poor tuba player hold out a note for 8 bars, give it to the 2nd and 4th horn in unison and then you not only have the added bonus of an instrument with better sustaining power, you also have two players who can alternate if breath is needed and since the timbre is identical, the audience will never know.

And don't take RK's statement that the horn is incapable of any but slow and lugubrious passages too seriously. He wrote that comment a long time ago - a modern horn player is capable of playing passages almost as agile as the trumpet (in the mid-to-high registers of the horn, anyway.)

And just to give an example for anyone interested of horns playing melodically in the lower register, try the beginning of the Pines of the Appian Way from Resphigi's Pines of Rome. It often sounds very tuba-like in recordings, and if you've never played it or followed the score, you might think it was a tuba, but it is in fact low horns. It is a great passage for horn in that register - not too fast, but very ominous and a perfect choice for the mood invoked.

[Aeterna]

So, about how long can a horn hold a note, reasonably speaking? I imagine it differs throughout the range.

[ALynn]

So, about how long can a horn hold a note, reasonably speaking? I imagine it differs throughout the range.

It does indeed vary by the range. Sort of a bell curve - longest in the middle, shorter on either extreme.

It would not be unreasonable to have sustained pitches of 8-12+ bars (a minute or longer of time?) of even a slow tempo at a soft or moderate dynamic. I don't know that I've ever timed how long I can personally hold pitches in various ranges, but I'm by no means a top end professional and even I can sustain pitches for a long time, as can most other hornists of decent ability. It is one of those things that the instrument is "good at." Very effective for pedal tones.

Louder, of course, takes more air and will require breaths.

Wagner calls for some pretty sustained pitches in some of his works in any and all registers and at any and all dynamics, but then, Wagner was a horn sadist. :D One breif example that jumps to my mind at this late hour is the beginning of Sigfried's Death and Funeral Music, where the horns have loud, angry notes sustained in the low register (where you get that nice buzzing growl effect). The end of the Meistersinger overture, as I recall, has the horns sustaining a higher pitch for equally as long and at a forte dynamic. Very annoying. The poor, crazy man thought horn players were machines, I think. Great stuff, but dear God, let us rest at least every once in a while!?!?!:eek:

[snorlax]

Hi...
A few quickies before I run off to church...

Hindemith, Symphonic Metamorphoses
Tchaik 4,5,6
Bruckner/Mahler-various
Revueltas, Sensemaya (solo tuba @ beginning)
Shostakovich 10
Prokofiev 5

More later...Jim

Well, now is later. Here are tuba audition lists for two orchestras, and links to a few of the parts. Please see my comments below about these parts

ORCHESTRA 1.
Berlioz - Benvenuto Cellini Ov., #16 to 5 after #19
Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique, mvts., IV& V (tuba 1)
Berlioz - Hungarian March, reh. #20 to end or #4 to end (concert version)
Bruckner - Symphony #7, mvt. IV, letter F to 4 before letter I. Letter P to letter S.
Gershwin - An American in Paris, 4 after reh. 67-68 (solo)
Hindemith - Symphonic Metamorphoses – mvt. II, 4 after L to 2 after N.
Holst - The Planets: Jupiter, 8 bars before reh. 17 to 8 after reh. 17.
Mahler - Symphony #1, mvt. III, 4 before reh. 3 to reh. 4.; Symphony #5
Prokofiev - Symphony #5, mvt I, reh. #3 to 2 bars before reh. #6. One note before #19 to 1 bar before #20. Mvt III, 1 bar after #65 to 4 bars before #66.
Respighi - Fontana Di Roma. Fontana di Trevi: #11 to #14
Strauss - Till Eulenspiegel: #13 to 2 bars before #14. 7 bars after #18 to 6 bars before #20. 3 bars after #23 to 7 bars before 26. 4 bars after 37 to 4 bars before #38.
Strauss - Also Sprach Zarathustra: #6 to 5 bars before #7. 7 bars after #50 to 6 bars before #51.
Stravinsky - Petrouchka: Peasant with Bear #188-#191
Wagner - Die Meistersinger , beginning to reh. A. Reh. J to reh.L.
Wagner - Die Walkure, Act III, Ride of the Walkure (B Major) #125 to #142.
Wagner - Lohengrin, Prelude to Act III, reh. B to 3 bars before reh. C. 6 bars after reh. D to reh. E.

ORCHESTRA 2:
SYM. FANTASTIQUE==> CHECK IT OUT (http://a2so.com/auditions/Tuba/fantastique.jpg)
Hungarian March from the Damnation of Faust==> CHECK IT OUT (http://a2so.com/auditions/Tuba/faust.jpg)
Mahler Symphony #1 - third movement, rehearsal number 1 - 4 ==> CHECK IT OUT (http://a2so.com/auditions/Tuba/mahler1.jpg)
Prokofiev Symphony #5 - first movement, rehearsal number 3 - 6 ==> CHECK IT OUT (http://a2so.com/auditions/Tuba/prokofiev5.jpg)
The Ride of the Valkyries==> CHECK IT OUT (http://a2so.com/auditions/Tuba/valkyries.jpg)
Overture to Die Meistersinger==> CHECK IT OUT (http://a2so.com/auditions/Tuba/meistersinger.jpg)
Pictures at an Exhibition - Number 4 "Bydlo"==> CHECK IT OUT (http://a2so.com/auditions/Tuba/pictures.jpg)

COMMENTS:
1. Re Berlioz: These started out likely as ophecleide parts. The "Dies Irae" in Sym. Fant. sounds absolutely menacing (as it's supposed to) on 2 ophecleides. These days it is played on F and CC tuba or euphonium and CC tuba. Not nearly as ominous, I'd say.

2. Re Bydlo in Pictures: This part was conceived with a FRENCH TUBA of the 20s-50s in mind. That instrument was pitched in the C ONE STEP ABOVE THE MODERN EUPHONIUM, but had the bore of a TUBA and was played with a TUBA mouthpiece. It had six valves. Bydlo is supposed to represent an ox-cart that labors up & down the street. One current custom is to play this excerpt on a euphonium, but that doesn't really sound labored enough. (Since everything I play sounds labored, I was frequently asked to play this excerpt :) ) I would play it on an F or Eb tuba--the G# is a good note on F tuba and the passage will sound labored enough. The tuba chronicles are rife with stories of major orchestral artists who tried to play this excerpt on CC tuba and crapped out on the high G#, which is not a great note on CC tuba. No need for heroism! Play it on F or Eb!!

GENERAL COMMENT: None of these passages is excruciatingly difficult as concerns the notes. You see a lot of overlap between the 2 orchestras. Neither one is a major-city orch, but the major-city orchs' lists would not be much different, actually.
Why do these same excerpts show up on so many audition lists when they are not terribly difficult technically?

1. They are exposed--solos or solis--in many cases they are "the tune."
2. They require musical precision and interpretation==>You would be surprised at how many tubists with technique out the wazoo are rejected at auditions because their rhythm in the Valkyries excerpt are lopsided or because their intonation in the Meistersinger Prelude part stinks.
3. They require stylistic unity with other parts of the orch such as trombones or low strings.

SO: The challenges of these parts are mostly MUSICAL, not TECHNICAL. It is assumed that all people auditioning will have the notes down. The winners do not crack under the pressure of the audition and have an interpretation that satisfies the audition committee.

So for those of you who posted here or emailed me asking for typical tuba rep. that shows the instrument at its best, here's your list. HUNDREDS OF TUBISTS WILL THANK YOU FOR WRITING GOOD AND INTERESTING TUBA PARTS!!!

[Leaf]

Snorlax,
the jpg in the link for Overture to Die Meistersinger has the one for The Ride of the Valkyries in it.:n:

David

PS: Thanks for all the info you posted.

[snorlax]

Snorlax,
the jpg in the link for Overture to Die Meistersinger has the one for The Ride of the Valkyries in it.:n:

David

PS: Thanks for all the info you posted.

FIXED. Check it out!! :D